My spirit overlook and "critiques" for lvs 1-4:
DC: For what you get the DC is fair.
Morituri Te Salutant- Very solid and balanced since it only allows one attack and is negated by creatures (things) that don't allow sneak attacks. Capstone is pretty good.
Moment of Greatness- Fitting flavor wise, but circumstantial in terms of how much you'd actually get use out of this. If you rage a lot this can be great and I know of some other ways of getting moral bonuses. So, it's meh.
Crowd Pleaser: You get Performance Weapon Mastery. If you intend to use performance combat, this CAN be good, but it largely depends on the weapon at hand. If you're in a colosseum battle and they don't have a weapon you're proficient with, this can be moot, but that's where binding a hero and using its constellation can come in handy. This is solid with the vestigial audience.
Psychological Warfare: Very nice. All 3 useful social skills get very solid bonuses and fighting maneuvers become a bit easier. Good.
Vestigial Audience: At first I was thinking I'd not like this, as I'm not a personal fan of performance combat, but then I saw the genius here after a few re-reads... you're not necessarily impressing a crowd, one that might not even be there... you're sort of trying to impress yourself. So you always have a crowd handy. Not bad overall, not sure if the benefits are strong enough to go through all of the extra book keeping, but pluses to rolls aren't bad.
Vestigial Boon: An always on unwitting ally with no save is very nice. Basically easy pluses if you're deep in the fray.
Overall Thoughts: With a chunk of performance combat wanting one to do combat maneuvers, I sort of think that it would have been nicer to gain a free improved combat maneuver feat over Performance Weapon Mastery. But that'd probably take longer.
DC = Fair for what you get.
Acidic Bolt: As Acid Arrow, except far limited in terms of range. Capstone makes it a bit nicer.
Alchemical Infusion: Very nice and quite versatile in use. Can net you invisibility, dark vision, cure moderate wounds and so on. I like.
Classically Schooled: Pick two intelligence skills is nice. Knowledges, craft, not bad at all.
Miraculous Transmutation: Not bad. Mix this with the likes of Aza' Zati, or Sybee and flip around to what you need. Facing a Shambling mound, you want acid. Facing a vrykolakas, you want fire. Good stuff.
Shield from Flames: Gaining a constant fire resistance is nice. At 5th you get 10 of it and that seems good to me.
Vestigial Boon: A good boon, especially with what you could net with the infusions.
Overall thoughts: Very solid spirit overall. The physical sign requiring you to shout at the top of your lungs your birth name can be horrible if you're in stealth mode, but luckily a large amount of Pervon's stuff isn't activated or can be activated elsewhere.
DC = Fair for what you get.
Fireball: ....Fire-freaking-ball. I love it. Capstone is less impressive, but even at 5th, that's +6 damage they take from them being on fire.
False Death: Some interesting uses here. Now, as it reads, you can't just fall the floor, "bluff" that you're dead for 15 minutes and then get back up. Nope. You have to stay down for at least an hour at a time. Good way to maybe lead your enemies to leave you alone or bypass you completely, or you can freak your party out. Not bad and quite fun.
Hexes of Sybee: Not bad. A bunch of these rely on cackle to be truly impressive, but you can nab that and another one of the hexes at 10th. Seems pretty far spacing wise, so Evil Eye, Tongues and Fortune are the clear favorites for the first choice as Misfortune only lasts for 1 round and Cackle is meaningless to straight or non-hex users as their first and only pick. Not bad though.
Protection from Flames: Again, not bad. It lasts for a while, but it's definitely a pre-battle buff (something I personally rarely have the luxury of). Solid and flavorful though, so it's ok.
Sweet Talk: This ones fun. Occultists should have a decent CHA score and with social skills being class skills, this can be quite good, even if its just for those attracted to you. That said, it's easy for DMs with the mind to, to make this ability far less useful. "No one in the room is attracted to you." But perhaps the 'could be' part of it helps there.
Vestigial Companion: Gain a familiar in place of the protection from flames. The things Chaotic Evil, but its intelligent enough to speak, it flies, can detect magic and good and has a very nice Stealth bonus. Hello scout.
Overall thoughts: The hexes are interesting, but i sort of wish i could have seen Slumber or some others on the list. As it stands, most beg for cackle to be truly good, although they're pretty good on their own rights for the most part.
DC = Fair enough.
Repulsion- Interesting overall. I suppose there are times when bull-rushing opponents can be useful and tactical placement is definitely a thing. Decent overall I think and the capstone makes it a bit better.
Diviner- You get divination X amount a day. Not bad if you can ask the right questions. Most DMs will likely make the messages as vague or cryptic as possible, so its good, but not great.
Guardian of Pacts- Meh. If occult magic is supposed to be as rare as indicated, I find it difficult to think you'll run into a lot of things that will expel spirits out of you. Even more so if its actually a rare thing in your campaigns (i.e. you're one of the few that is playing an occult character). That said, the flavor fits, and you might want this some day.
Repair the Ward- Very nice. The fact that it can be maintained even while unconscious means you have a chance of not bleeding out and getting back up later. Since it's by round, you'll want to know before using it how much you want to possibly gain back. Good stuff though.
Warded- Just solid overall. Doesn't stack with cloak of resistance, but, it does make it so that you may not even need the cloak, thus saving money if you intend to use this a lot. Good stuff.
Vestigial Boon- Solid stuff, but not really better than repair the ward in the life saving area. It does help the party though, so that's a thing.
Overall thoughts - His personality influence is going to make things hard to hide (for flavor reasons) and his chiming whenever you use an ability makes it very hard to stealth around. One to think about and his abilities are half-solid / awesome and half-meh / ok to me.
Out of the four above, Sybee is my personal favorite, followed by Pervon, Gaston and then Kami. I have to say though, the spirits do all add some nice but different stuff here. Nice.
Keep in mind that Gaston's vestigial boon is designed with the following in mind: because it trades out Vestigial Audience, your Performance Weapon Mastery benefit from crowd pleaser just got a WHOLE lot less useful.
I can't fault you because you don't have Chapter 8 yet, but Chapter 8 has THREE anti-occult organizations, all of which want nothing more than to rip the spirits out of your body and then kill you for your transgressions. (Except, perhaps, the Enclave of the Closed Eye, which would likely capture you for study and vivisect you to figure out what being bound to a spirit did to your corporeal form.)
Basically, if your GM wants bad guys that are capable of dismissing pact spirits from your soul, he doesn't need soul weavers or occultists to do it. You're not safe. >: )
@Orich I'm still trying to decide how I want to respond to your comments. Most of your "questions" draw the intent of, "Please make pact magic even better for 9th level spellcasters," which is something I'm not interested in doing. (And a fair of those questions are just statements challenging my design philosophy with a question mark slapped on the end, jeopardy-style, which I found frustrating.)
I'm also not particularly interested in homogenizing archetypes any more then I already have, so you're going to need actual gameplay data to convince me to change any of those caster classes around.
I just looked over some the new draft and I really like the changes to Cornelius Button, Ubro, and Cromwell. I think giving Ubro "False Life" as his major and Oracle style channeling as a minor was a great solution.
Is Cornelius Button's bomb supposed to has a range increment of 20 feet? Seems like it probably meant to, but it just says range 20 feet.
Keep up the good work.
OK Great. I thought it might have been supposed to be 7th, which is why I thought it should get a bump.
One last concern (After taking a second look at it): Might it be possible to lower the scaling level to 8th or 9th instead of 12th? The ability looks like it will function fine right up until about 8th-9th level, at which point the bonus to AC is going to suffer from stacking effects (some people may have a +2 Ring of Protection, or some other +2 Defelection bonus around then). I'm thinking, as written, 9th-11th is looking like a rough spot (But I might be wrong).
I don't know that the fact a character may have an item or ability that grants a similar bonus as one granted by the power is a good enough reason to "power up" an ability so that its effect is granted when used at a specific level range. If you have a ring, you can choose another ability. If an ally has one, they don't get the benefit. Neither reason seems dire enough to neccesitate your proposed change. Some choices just don't work well with others in an PnP game the scope of PFRPG.
Keep in mind that Gaston's vestigial boon is designed with the following in mind: because it trades out Vestigial Audience, your Performance Weapon Mastery benefit from crowd pleaser just got a WHOLE lot less useful.
True. I understand that Gaston is meant to push the player to use performance combat, and that it fits the flavor fine for the spirit, I'm just happy to have the option for something other than performance combat as I'm sure other players may be. That said, the idea that you can use Gaston as the crowd makes performance combat a lot more viable IMO. The decent increase to book keeping (i.e. keeping track of attitudes, whether moments are enough to trigger, what your bonuses or penalties are) just makes it something a player should consider before trying. The fact that you basically get a useless ability if you don't want to do performance combat hurts a bit, but it seems an extra lack in effectiveness if a player doesn't want to use performance was what was in mind. So, it's fine.
Question, if you're only using Gaston as your crowd (which I think will come up fairly often), what's his starting attitude? Indifferent?
Also... it now just clicked why the Moment of Greatness... I see what you did there. Touche'
I can't fault you because you don't have Chapter 8 yet, but Chapter 8 has THREE anti-occult organizations, all of which want nothing more than to rip the spirits out of your body and then kill you for your transgressions. (Except, perhaps, the Enclave of the Closed Eye, which would likely capture you for study and vivisect you to figure out what being bound to a spirit did to your corporeal form.)
That's actually one of the reasons I haven't bothered looking over the Devotee prestige class. I don't have the new societies to look at and see if there are ones that make it interesting.
I'm only putting out my thoughts based on personal experiences. I have yet to have a DM use an actual society or their society boons, either for or against players. So, the fact that ones exist to rip spirits out won't concern me personally. I don't know how many DMs use societies and their stuff, so, I can't remark on how many others will experience frequent spirit expelling attempts.
For me, I'm the only one playing an occultist in my entire party and its a new class to both me and my DM. Since its just my lone occultist (and maybe other NPCs if he chooses to make them) in this custom world, it isn't steeped in occult magic or lore outside of the spirits, and thus I don't expect soul ripping to be much of a thing in my game, or anyone else's whose world isn't at least moderately dedicated to the occult magic or lore. So, naturally, I fear and value spirit ripping protection less than those who will have such dedicated worlds.
All that said, one minor ability being less useful to me, doesn't make the spirit bad. In fact, Kami's pretty solid defensively, and I would consider using him. He may not be my first choice to research for a 4th level spirit, but he's still one I'd research eventually or be happy to find in a gnostic tome lying about.
Basically, if your GM wants bad guys that are capable of dismissing pact spirits from your soul, he doesn't need soul weavers or occultists to do it. You're not safe. >: )
Fair enough. He may just do that. But I died the first session I ever played the occultist (granted there are a couple things I didn't do right), so I never feel safe as an occultist anyways haha.
P.s. Sorry for the mass amount of text everyone...
Is Cornelius seedling bomb DC supposed to be INT based?
I just looked over some the new draft and I really like the changes to Cornelius Button, Ubro, and Cromwell. I think giving Ubro "False Life" as his major and Oracle style channeling as a minor was a great solution.
Is Cornelius Button's bomb supposed to has a range increment of 20 feet? Seems like it probably meant to, but it just says range 20 feet.
Keep up the good work.
Its copied word for word from the alchemist bomb class feature.
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@Orich I'm still trying to decide how I want to respond to your comments. Most of your "questions" draw the intent of, "Please make pact magic even better for 9th level spellcasters," which is something I'm not interested in doing. (And a fair of those questions are just statements challenging my design philosophy with a question mark slapped on the end, jeopardy-style, which I found frustrating.)
I'm also not particularly interested in homogenizing archetypes any more then I already have, so you're going to need actual gameplay data to convince me to change any of those caster classes around.
My goal isn't to cause you any frustration and for that I apologize.
I tried to separate them into questions and observations to try to avoid Jeopardy-style questions. I also do not mean for my analysis to be "must-have changes;" they are meant to simply be questions or comments that I had while reading the material.
I do not mean to challenge your design philosophy; my desire is to understand it. For example, the Sorcerer and Arcanist losing a spell known of each level causes them to have 0 spells known when they first gain access to their higher-level spell slots. To me, it seems harsh, but you have the experience that I don't that led to this decision--much like the revision of Soul Weaver from its previous form, which I understand and agree with completely.
I enjoy the look and feel of the pact magic classes as I do with the rest of pact magic and I don't want them to lose their uniqueness, either.
Please do not worry about answering my questions/observations, as you already have with this post.
Again, my apologies--I truly enjoy this product and am honored to be a part of it.
I am very disappointed I missed the Kickstarter for this. Pact magic in all its forms has been my favorite system since it was introduced in the Tome of Magic. When is the planned release? Is it possible to pre-order, and is it possible for others to help with the Playtest in any way?
This looks to be epic and I hope the other spirits from Secrets and Villains are part of it. (I miss Gwedelyn's Ghost.)
My overview / "critiques" of starless spirits 5-9:
(Almost posted Rattenkonig for some reason... oops. By the way the title of his Disgustingly Tolerant ability needs to be spaced apart I think.)
DC = Very fair.
Sonic Note- A nice little nova. Sort of Fireball-esque but lesser due to range, but its a fair trade as very few things are resistant to sonic damage. Capstone is very nice.
Part of My World- Ok, it's nifty... but from what the spell reads, its permanent, so unless you're playing skull and shackles, you'd never want to use this on yourself or never come out of the water for fear of death again. An option to change back would be nice.
Sea God's Daughter- Some nifty spells on the list for sure. Never was a big fan of fogs unless you can see through them, however, they're still solid battlefield control. Elemental body is nice, even if its only for water. Good stuff.
Trumpet of the Sea- Some neat stuff spell wise and I like the flavor requiring you to use a horn instrument to do them. Fog Cloud overlaps with Water Domain, but thems the breaks.
Voice of the Sea- You can talk to fish! Aquaman would be proud. More seriously though, this could be fun if you carried around a flounder in a portable fish tank and talked with him. Good for water parts of the campaign potentially though.
Vestigial Boon: You can turn back into a humanoid. I guess this is to undo the Part of My World? If so, that means you have to go a full 24 (or longer) hours before making another pact with Triteia and shifting back to yourself. And I'm not sure the change is permanent or if it only lasts as long as the pact lasts, jettisoning you back into your previous form after its over.
Overall Thoughts: Unless I'm wanting to turn enemies or snarky party members into half-fish people, I don't think I'd use Part of My World. Her personality influence is fun looking, although I'm not quite sure what "experiencing people" entails. Just talking to them with wonder?
DC = Very Fair
Sekhemet's Roar- Now this is what I call a major ability and a fun one at that. Not usable against undead, and maybe other things, but still nifty neato king. Capstone is what I call a capstone too. Very cool.
Avatar of War- Some nice spells. Love the power word line and blade barrier is nice too. Good stuff.
Body of Giza- This is kind of metal. You become a half-person half-big cat, gain speed, size (although not much of the fun parts of the size) and pluses against being tripped. Flavorful and potentially useful at times.
Desert Dweller- Very situational, but if you find yourself at a high enough level to obtain Sekhemet and you're almost always in the desert, not bad.
Drilled Soldier- Profession (Soldier) could come up some day. More so if you're an actual soldier background wise I think. Didn't know mass combat boons were a thing. If you find yourself in mass combat, this can be sort of nice. Situational again IMO though.
Vestigial Boon- Some fun spells and some good ones too. Not sure if they're as good as War's though.
Overall Thoughts: Very much flavored to the desert and rightly so. That said, it might be so much so that half the abilities go unused almost all the time, leaving the flavor essentially moot. Personality influence is interesting and easy for a DM to play off of for either good or bad things.
(First off... badass name... just saying.)
DC = Seems high for what you get.
Wounding Strikes- Interesting. Not sure if I'm reading this right, but they take bleed damage, but stop after it's your turn again. Capstone makes it so they can take more bleed damage, presumably from other sources. If they stop bleeding after the first bit, this isn't all that impressive. Especially since at this level, you're probably facing a lot of things that either don't bleed, or can stop the bleeding themselves anyways through spells or abilities.
Axiomatic- You deal extra damage against chaos-aligned things. Chaotic evil is fairly common, so you will probably get some use out of it, depending on the adventure of the day.
Detect Chaos- Helps with the Axiomatic ability usage and makes you into an odd sort of inquisitor or paladin.
Multiarmed- Neat. If you want to play as Goro from mortal kombat only lawful, it seems like Inexorus is your dude. Seriously though, this offers a lot of fun and is generally good. Will look odd if you're amongst common folk though.
Prime Objective- The spells here are so-so in my personal opinion. It's a bit more limited then past domain giving abilities (what with everything having to be law based) but not bad. Not particularly impressive either though. So-so.
Vestigial Companion- It does it's job, however, if you know you're not going to be facing much CE in the day, it's an easy pick I think.
Overall Thoughts- Personality influence can be quite restricting depending on where you're at, but it's flavorful. Not sure Inexorus feels like a 7th level spirit in strength and the major is sort of vexing if they just heal the bleeding next turn. One round of bleed is so-so I think. Also seems sort of odd for a lawful being to want to cause bleeding. Inexorus seems like a decent choice if you want to multiclass. Otherwise, I don't think I'd research him personally as is. But that's not saying much as not all spirits are for everyone.
DC = Fair for what you get.
Wreath of Flame- Was originally thinking this was so-so for the level, but then I saw swift action and everything was good again. Capstone makes it even quicker, and I'd probably have fun holding the action and waiting for a charging enemy, popping the wall in their path.
Flesh Kindling- First off... touche on the play on names. Second. I really like this ability. Even if its just rounds, its a solid amount of health and if you had a body part fly off recently, BAM! you can put it back. Nice.
Healing Embers- Your party will like you for this and its good stuff. Nice.
Lore of Ages- Two intelligence skills of your choice. This sounds familiar, but is still useful anyways and I'm not complaining. Good stuff.
Reborn from Ashes- Love it. Good flavor for the phoenix and makes it harder to be killed. Penalties are fair I think and if you're an old dude, this could make you younger if you wanted. Good stuff once again.
Vestigial Boon- Resurrection X amount a day. I think it should be made slightly clearer that if you don't do the age reduction route that you still have to pay the component cost, but having resurrection on a stick (you being the stick) is still good either way. Nice.
Overall Thoughts- Personality influence is going to be a pain. Don't miss that DC! haha. Leave your mom home a country back? Well, either you fight the phoenix or you're heading home to momma. I like this spirit quite a bit. Tons of flavor and useful abilities to boot. Good stuff.
DC = Just fair enough for what you get.
Imbue with Occult Power- Interesting. Some possibly cool uses could come out of this, especially at this level. Give the party mundane fighter a surprise ability and your enemies may not see it coming. Nice that it gives your stats for the abilities too. Capstone is fairly good.
Harmonize Spirits- Now at first I thought this was so-so. Then, thinking it over, if one planned out their spirits just right, you could get some awesome bonuses from this. So, pretty good all in all.
Occult Blessings- Not bad. Last impression will make murder mysteries a bit more interesting. Flavor wise it fits with the pacifistic approach of Alexandria. Not an intriguing list, but usable.
Occult Concordance- Now this is awesome. Until this point, Alexandria wasn't quite feeling like a 9th lv. spirit, but this makes it there. The fact that you can immediately use the ability if reduced to 0 rounds of recharge is awesome. Granted, majors that have caught my eye only here or there, but it does give the feeling of power. Sybee fireball. Next round, sybee fireball. Cook em up! Honestly, I'd probably happily trade Alexandria's major for another use of another spirits half the time.
Reliable Pact- Since capstones don't always feel capstone-y, this makes binding those spirits that much easier and at this point, almost a shoe-in. Also makes Tartarus more likely a spirit you can get without making a poor pact. Which helps.
Vestigial Companion- Celestial Hawk in place of Harmonize spirits. It's actually tempting and makes going the non-coordinate your skills so you get full use of harmonize spirits route viable. Not bad at all.
Overall thoughts - Personality influence is brutal. Better hope enemies aren't around at all when this goes on. Also, another one that likes you to shout your birth name at the top of your lungs. Again, not good for stealth missions.
Some interesting stuff for sure. Love Hou-ou... sounds like the pokemon.
That's because Ho-oh's American name (and his Japanese name) are based on the Chinese word for "phoenix," which is hou-ou.
The point of Triteia's part of your world ability is to allow players to have long-term underwater adventures. That's why it functions as a permanent spell; so it won't run out even after the pact ends.
The vestigial boon actually CAN'T undo part of your world, because if I recall correctly it functions as alter self, a polymorph effect, and merfolk transformation isn't removed by polymorph effects. If you're going to change back, you need a way to get a break enchantment or true form spell cast on you.
On Inexorus, bleeding damage doesn't stop until the target dies or is subject to a healing spell. Its a core part of the bleed condition. Also, must of his power as a spirit is invested in the fact that he gives you two free arms.
The vestigial boon actually CAN'T undo part of your world, because if I recall correctly it functions as alter self, a polymorph effect, and merfolk transformation isn't removed by polymorph effects. If you're going to change back, you need a way to get a break enchantment or true form spell cast on you.
Says it acts as Change Shape, but essentially the same thing and circumstances. Fair enough on the whole ability thing. It'll relegate the Part of My World ability to Oceanic Adventures in terms of a buff, however, I could see it being a fun offensive spell to toss onto people. Lowering an enemies land speed to 5 and forcing a save for them to breath sounds like a pain for them.
On Inexorus, bleeding damage doesn't stop until the target dies or is subject to a healing spell. Its a core part of the bleed condition. Also, must of his power as a spirit is invested in the fact that he gives you two free arms.
I see. I think I was just mixed up because of the "causing successful attacks with your melee weapons to deal bleed damage equal to your Charisma modifier to any opponent that you hit until the start of your next round" bit. But now that I know its definitely decent. Two arms is definitely fun too.
That's because Ho-oh's American name (and his Japanese name) are based on the Chinese word for "phoenix," which is hou-ou.
Makes sense.
I'll juggle around the wording of Wounding Strikes. Its trying to say that the major granted ability's effects (that your attacks deal bleed damage) last until the start of your next round.
I'll juggle around the wording of Wounding Strikes. Its trying to say that the major granted ability's effects (that your attacks deal bleed damage) last until the start of your next round.
Gotcha. Sounds good.
That said: Some lingering questions I have.
With Sybee's False Death, can one wake up from it at any time? Or do they have to stay down for the amount of hours they decide on when using the ability?
With Gaston's Vestigial Audience, what is Gaston's starting attitude for the performance combats? Indifferent?
With Alexandria's Occult Concordance ability, it says you can immediately use the major ability if you manage to get its rounds to 0. Does that mean you use it as an immediate (quickened) action? Or simply that you could use it if you have the available action, such as standard, available? I assume the latter as that makes more sense, but I just want to make sure.
With things like Sekhemet and Night Fang's physical transformations, does this effect what clothing and armors you can wear? Like... can one wear pants with Sekhemet's half-cat half-people thing?
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With Sybee's False Death, can one wake up from it at any time? Or do they have to stay down for the amount of hours they decide on when using the ability?
Its like any other ability that lasts UNIT/day. You can end it whenever you want, but you have to spend it in increments of 1 hour. So if you stay down for 10 seconds, you still spend an hour of the ability.
With Gaston's Vestigial Audience, what is Gaston's starting attitude for the performance combats? Indifferent?
Yes. I'll see if I can fit that in. Gaston is a VERY smushed spirit.
With Alexandria's Occult Concordance ability, it says you can immediately use the major ability if you manage to get its rounds to 0. Does that mean you use it as an immediate (quickened) action? Or simply that you could use it if you have the available action, such as standard, available? I assume the latter as that makes more sense, but I just want to make sure.
The second one. If you could use it as an immediate action, it would say, "that major granted ability immediately becomes available and can be used as an immediate action."
With things like Sekhemet and Night Fang's physical transformations, does this effect what clothing and armors you can wear? Like... can one wear pants with Sekhemet's half-cat half-people thing?
Under the pact magic rules, it states that such changes are physical ones. I'm also fairly certain that they're not considered polymorph effects, so you might not want to show Giza's sign while you're wearing clothes. That could be painful. And expensive.
Awesome. All good to know, thank you much!
So you guys aren't going to hear much from me for the next couple weeks as I'm slowly embroiled in the, "Make sure I'm prepared for PaizoCon" rush.
So far, I haven't seen any Feedback on Chapter 9 (which snuck its way into the back of the book). There's also a bunch of new spells to scour through as well, and I think there's a new feat or two. Feedback on the new binder secrets would also be helpful.
Yay Paizocon!
Sorry for the lack of commentary. I've been busy with other things the past week; I did notice chapter 9 and have been wanting to read it.
Playtest v3 Binder Secret Analysis
Only the new or mechanically changed binder secrets will be listed.
Bountiful Abilities:
This binder secret joins us from Occult Options #1, albeit in a different form. No longer granting 3 additional uses for each minor granted ability, it now allows you to 2/day either gain another use of a daily minor ability or 3 additional rounds/minutes/hours of a time-limited minor granted ability. An Occultist is also limited to only being able to take this binder secret a maximum of 4 times (+1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th), for a total of 8 additional uses of a minor granted ability.I can admit that the old ability was a bit too good (applying to all minor abilities across the board). The new ability is still useful since you can choose which abilities benefit, but the limitation of 2/day and the restrictions on how much it can be taken hurt non-Cha pact magic classes much more than an Occultist.
I would prefer for it not to have restrictions on the number of times it can be taken due to its limited daily use now. For Occultists this would make a caster build easier and there is a trade-off to taking this secret as opposed to others, since there are so many good secrets.
Double Occult Weapon:
This secret allows you to apply the Occult Weapon binder secret to two weapons instead of one. An excellent secret as it allows pact magic classes who are two-weapon focused to gain full use of Occult Weapon secret at the cost of two binder secrets.Occult Secret
This secret allows you to gain an occult feat in its stead. An excellent secret to have for those pact magic builds that don't focus on binder secrets. Note that you can only take this secret a limited number of times; once, plus once more at 6th, 12th, and 18th.Revelation of Brilliance
This has been modified to be able to be taken by any occultist now. At the cost of a secret you can add your Charisma modifier bonus on all Knowledge checks. Occult Scholars only add +2 as they already have a class feature similar to this, but also gain the ability to use Knowledge checks untrained. Another excellent secret and it will help all types of occultists complete their Knowledge Tasks.Spirit Imp
You gain a spirit imp (a new creature) as a familiar, a Tiny monstrous humanoid that speaks Common, flys, has occult scent, and an Int poison. This is great for any occultist that wants a permanent familiar vs. a temporary vestigial companion. This will also allow you to qualify for Improved Familiar, but honestly, the Spirit Imp is pretty good by itself.Vestigial Protection / Improved Vestigial Protection
As mentioned in a previous post these secrets no longer have level requirements, making them great for any support pact magic character.
p13, Bountiful Abilities: "...she can use a minor granted ability that is normally only usable once per day one additional time." This makes it sound like only daily abilities that are used 1/day can be used an additional time, while most minor granted abilities with daily uses are 3+Cha/day.
p15, Merciful Spirit: "Granted abilities that inflict damage of a particular type (such as fire inflict nonlethal damage of that same type." This is missing ")".
p17, Occultinogen: "The occultist may possess both a Reserved Spirit and a spirit..." Should this be "Reserve?"
p17, Remove Malady: "...gains the ability to cast remove malady as spell-like ability once per day..." Should be "as a spell-like ability."
p17, Rush Ritual: "The occultist take a cumulative -2 penalty..."
p18, Tendrils of Darkness, Prerequisites: "maximum spirit level 4th" should be "ability to bind 4th-level spirits"
p19, Unbarred: "An occultist with this secret select 1 constellation that she has barred and unbar it..."; "If the occultist laters multiclass..." Should be "later multiclasses."
Q: Double Occult Weapon: Does this secret allow the binder to grant different bonuses to each weapon or do they have the same bonuses?
Yay Paizocon!
Sorry for the lack of commentary. I've been busy with other things the past week; I did notice chapter 9 and have been wanting to read it.
Same here, busy week for me.
I'm going to skip the age area, as we've had it for a while and its pretty straight forward IMO.
Racial Traits
Attributes are fine. I didn't really get a feeling of wisdom from the description, and considering that they're supposed to be the original occultists, their link to genies and mercantilism, it seems odd that they don't have a Charisma bump which is largely the primary stat for occultists. That said, you made the race, so you know better than I what they are and therefore this opinion doesn't mean much haha.
The desert nomad ability is pretty nice. The fact that the majority of it doesn't rely only on the desert makes it solid. The second part of the ability with the desert is something that players will probably look at if the DM gives notice of the campaign being desert area I'm sure.
The immunities are nice, dazzled can occasionally show up, especially with enemy casters and the being able to stay in 140 degree weather is a nice touch as well. I wonder what said ravages of such heat would be on items though, other than your water's warm.
Resist gaze sort of seems out of the blue. Perhaps I missed it, is there a flavor reason they're resistant to such attacks? In any event, it may only show up once in a blue moon, but it could be nice sometimes.
Seer Binder. Not bad since the Amateur Occultist feat has the special wording allowing this ability to essentially turn into a bonus occult feat. As far as the Seer constellation goes, I bet they probably wished they saw the Wyrmkin Amulet crisis coming haha.
Weapon familiarity is pretty nice. All very solid and often sought after weapons. Good stuff here.
A pretty sparse list for languages known, but that's probably because I often just go with human. So. It works.
Alternate Racial Traits
Bartering - This could be good for those choosing to get into classes that gives proficiency with the weapons or for those wanting to go a more pacifistic way.
Desert Inspiration - If you're already planning on playing a class that gets access to spirits such as the occultist and you don't need a spare occult feat, this is very solid. Odds are though I'd never sniff the spice, -4 is brutal.
Frehmin Emissary - Seems like a fair and balanced trade off. Once can choose pluses to saves or being pretty darn awesome at speaking with people. Nice.
Frehmin Magic - Once a day for those spells over a Seer spirit may not seem very worth. The +1 to mind affecting DCs is nice though.
Genie Blood - This one seems a fair trade as well, especially for those going the genie bloodlines. Some nice bonuses in here.
Low-Light Vision - Personally, and this is just me, I'd probably always use this alternative trait. I know I'd be less happy about it if I met a Gorgon, but so far, that's never been the case with me.
Pactbreaker - Solid in an occult heavy game, but still probably overly situational. If it were just a plain +2 to knowledge arcana, I think it'd be more tempting. That said, for those that hate binders, this is a solid and flavorful trait.
Spice Spellcaster - This one is nifty flavor wise and not all that bad really. It'd make for a fun alchemist for sure.
Errors Found - "a frehmin with the Amateur Investigator feat or the inspiration class feature an inhale one dose of desert spice..."
(Under Favored Class Bonus, but I think this was already mentioned) "Occultist: Select 1 scholar spirit. While bound to" stops there.
Autrok seems fine to me. Looks like they'd make great scout familiar's for casters and probably an odd irritation for very low level PCs to have to deal with.
Reading over the Carnival Animal. Essentially balloons from the look of it, which is entertaining to think about. Seems like they'd be a definite pain in the neck to fight. That said, the increase to the challenge rating being +0 seems odd. With all the things it adds, a couple of which are fairly dangerous for PCs in battle, I feel like this is outright better than a base creature.
Ravager Vessel is very flavorful, and pretty neat. Pretty straight forward template too.
Spirit Imp seems fun. With it having Occult Sent, it's a good back up for Occult Heavy campaigns. Seems like it's almost better on the ground then flying, but I can imagine some flimsy wings being the reason. No notable skills save for perception and it doesn't seem like it can communicate intelligently with the owner, so it won't do much for scouting. Maybe a psuedo-alarm, letting you know when others come near you, would be the best use for this little guy.
Spirit touch is interesting. I like the addiction aspect. In fact, if there isn't one already, it'd make sense for there to be a template elsewhere that gives an addiction to using magic. It's not particularly powerful, but it doesn't appear that it was meant to be.
I'll look into traits next. Then see what the maladies are all about.
EDIT: I also agree with pretty much all of Orich's views on the secrets. Love Revelation of Brilliance now and Occult Secret is very nice for freeing up room.
I might have forgotten to mention it (check the physical description), but frehmin actually have a tiny film over their eyes that makes it so they don't ever REALLY directly look at stuff. That's why they have resist gaze attack.
If I forgot to add that note, then that needs fixing.
Hearing that the aging rules are straightforward and easy to understand is actually VERY good feedback, especially since they changed in specificity since Vol 2.
That's because Ho-oh's American name (and his Japanese name) are based on the Chinese word for "phoenix," which is hou-ou.
Isn't that the Japanese rendering of the Chinese word, which is feng-huang? (Which I would prefer as the name here, frankly.)
I might have forgotten to mention it (check the physical description), but frehmin actually have a tiny film over their eyes that makes it so they don't ever REALLY directly look at stuff. That's why they have resist gaze attack.
If I forgot to add that note, then that needs fixing.
I just looked through the physical description again and I'm not seeing anything about tiny film over their eyes.
Hearing that the aging rules are straightforward and easy to understand is actually VERY good feedback, especially since they changed in specificity since Vol 2.
Yeah. I mean, it's laid out pretty plainly I think. If one changes in age, look at charts, use those abilities and apply any size changes and speed changes accordingly. The rest of details are there if needed by player or DM. So yeah. Seems straight forward to me.
Speaking of aging rules, is there a mechanical reason why a Greensprout Rapscallion would want to be a child rather than a youth, other than being a size category smaller and immune to Hide from Adults, or is the option there for rp and npcs?
Chapter 9
Expanded Aging Rules: I like these. They are set up well, appear to balance well, and the information is easy to find and understand. I love that it call's out that aging effects don't effect equipment sizing.
Frehmin Race: I love the fluff provided, and the mechanical benefits fit well given their back story. I know that the Race Builder's Guide rules allow for it, but any time I see a race with two good ability scores and no negative scores it set's off a little inner alarm with me (Humans have to give up their two best racial features to pull that trick off). That's not you're fault however, and everything fall's within the standard, acceptable format/power level.
I really like the alternate racial traits provided for the Frehmin. The inclusion of Desert Inspiration and Genie Blood both replace Seer Binder, allowing you to introduce Non-Binder Frehmin as needed.
Favored Class Options: Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the Occultist Favored class option is incomplete.
Occult Creatures:
Autrok, Ergon: This is a neat creature, easy enough to fit into any game. I really like this one. I believe his stat block is incorrect however. It's natural attack is listed as Bite -1 (d4-4), However, it possesses the Deadly Agility ability. I believe it's Bite should read Bite +7 (1d4+4)... Making him MUCH more deadly (Attack: +2 Size, +1 BAB, +4 Dex).
Carnival Animal: Going to agree with Thirdmind. Carnival Animal is a big upgrade, a +0 CR just doesn't seem right. It's a +1 CR Template in my eyes (DR 10/Piercing, Swallow Whole, Sonic Attack). I don't see a Shape or Size listed for the Breath Weapon?
Ravager Vessel: Again, I think this is a +1 CR Template. Not directly because of the Templates movement and ability score bonus, but because of the abilities granted by the Ravager Spirit (Soul Tear, Frenzy, Evasive Maneuvers). I really like the flavor of the Ravaged Spirits and would like to see more about them. One thing I would really like to see is a selection of abilities that can be swapped out on the Ravager Spirit so that they don't all have the same powers (Being able to swap out, say, Frenzy for a Fear Effect for example.)
Spirit Imp: Not much to add here. Everything looks good.
Spirit Touched: Simple and Effective, I like it.
More to follow, likely tomorrow.
Speaking of aging rules, is there a mechanical reason why a Greensprout Rapscallion would want to be a child rather than a youth, other than being a size category smaller and immune to Hide from Adults, or is the option there for rp and npcs?
Its for RP or NPCs.
Question. Under the Ravage Binder requirements, it lists Starless Focus. I can't seem to find any secrets or feats named that. Is there one?
Question. Under the Ravage Binder requirements, it lists Starless Focus. I can't seem to find any secrets or feats named that. Is there one?
It was supposed to be a feat similar to Constellation Focus, but I ultimately decided to include language in Constellation Focus that allowed you to select starless spirits with the feat. So that prerequisite should be Constellation Focus (starless).
Occult Hunter: Solid in Occult heavy campaigns. Otherwise it's not bad, as supernatural abilities do exist outside of the occult.
Spirit Combat: This is fairly solid all around. Works with all abilities so it's wide open for a lot of things. It is just +1, but sometimes that can matter.
Weird Warrior: An interesting one. There are plenty of things that don't come from the material plane. Interested in how this would work against summoned creatures.
Against Spirits: Very Occult heavy. If you're in such a game, this can be nice. If not, it's an easy skip over.
Favored: Very nice. I like this one quite a bit. Yeah you lose an extra round of the major, but +1 to DC is big, even if it's just once per day.
Guardian of Reality: Again this leans more heavily towards Occult heavy games, but the first bump isn't all that bad.
Hidden Heretic: This one can be pretty nice. +2 is a solid bonus and I'll wager plenty of people will be hiding their appearance and such.
Inheritor: I like making good pacts. This makes that much easier.
Occult Whisperer: (I think this needs a space between the title words) This one is fun and fairly solid too. It may be random, but still, one never knows when they may need to know something.
Astute Binder: This is quite huge for those who want to go an intelligence or wisdom based build. Very nice indeed.
Living Foci: Again. Very nice. +2 to binding for a constellation is pretty big. Honestly, if you have a favorite constellation, this is an easy take over Inheritor, if you can make the trait fit the background.
Son/Daughter of the Occult: Wow... With this and maybe Revelation of Brilliance plus a reasonable CHA, you've likely got an easy time getting those knowledge tasks under way.
Tempered by the Occult: Makes you a bit tougher. Nothing all that huge, but it could come in handy for not dying and stuff.
Under the Stars: Can be ok. Can bump up the damage for some and duration for others. Not bad.
Disturbing: Not bad. I mean, you're ugly, but you get decent bonuses for it.
Hollow Facade: Also not bad. Traits that land you a class skill in things you want are rarely bad. This gives pluses to both, so it can be pretty good.
Innocent: Very good for those who want to focus on lying. Pretty unique in what it does, for the skill at least. Nice.
Simpleminded: Ouch. Definitely a draw back. Simpleminded makes me think that the characters not that bright rather then weak willed though.
Occult Dependency: The 24 hours without binding penalty is quite flavorful. The -4 to the abilities for expulsion seems a bit harsh.
Lingering Influences: Quite interesting and flavorful. Not harsh, but definitely a drawback.
Painful Sign: Harsh. Not horrible for undead PCs though I guess... but I doubt DMs would allow it then.
Question: With Occult Dependency it doesn't list how long the -4 lasts if you get the penalty. Is it forever until the end of time?
How do you intend Occult Scholar and Astute Binder to interact?
How do you intend Occult Scholar and Astute Binder to interact?
Exactly how the Core Rulebook says they interact.
If you're an occult scholar who chooses Charisma, then you replace your Intelligence bonus with Charisma, but cannot add your Charisma twice on Knowledge checks because bonuses from the same source (i.e. Charisma) don't stack. If you choose Wisdom, then you replace your Intelligence with your Wisdom, then add your Charisma.
In short, it is a fairly awful trait for an occult scholar to take unless you plan on dumping Intelligence, which seems a bit counterproductive for an archetype built around Knowledges.
I'm going to look into the maladies and other chapter 9 stuff later tonight... time and personal energy willing.
So a quick update on what I'm working on right now, because I've been rather quite for the past few days.
In looking at the pact magic archetypes for non-occultist classes, I'm wondering if ANY of the archetypes make a fair trade for pact magic. As written now, some of them give up things like ONE arcanist exploit or ONE hex for bind spirits, then never have to give up anything substantial again. At that point, its like, "Why would you EVER take the Amateur Occultist feat? The archetype gives you the same benefit at FULL binder level."
Right now, the idea that's currently flying around my brain is altering the archetypes so they all grant Amateur Occultist as a bonus feat, then offer a way for each class to improve their maximum spirit level. I'd like some feedback on this idea.
So the major change here would be taking out them getting what is essentially binding with (usually) one type of constellation for the amateur occultist feat and then taking out other class features to improve upon said amateur occultist feat?
If so I don't see too much of a problem with that. I recall plenty of archetypes that give up more than one hex, rogue talent, etc... If you feel it's balanced and it doesn't get rid of key features completely or too harshly, I think it could be cool.
Does it matter if they get the amateur occultist feat though if you can just go in and add more restrictions / tweaks? Or is this more of a space saving thing, where you just have to say, "they gain amateur occultist feat regardless of meeting restrictions, this replaces X."?
So a quick update on what I'm working on right now, because I've been rather quite for the past few days.
In looking at the pact magic archetypes for non-occultist classes, I'm wondering if ANY of the archetypes make a fair trade for pact magic. As written now, some of them give up things like ONE arcanist exploit or ONE hex for bind spirits, then never have to give up anything substantial again. At that point, its like, "Why would you EVER take the Amateur Occultist feat? The archetype gives you the same benefit at FULL binder level."
Right now, the idea that's currently flying around my brain is altering the archetypes so they all grant Amateur Occultist as a bonus feat, then offer a way for each class to improve their maximum spirit level. I'd like some feedback on this idea.
The Arcanist gives up a 1st-level exploit but also has one less prepared spell per level, resulting in 0 spells known at each new spell level gained, delaying casting these spells unless Expanded Arcana is taken.
The Witch gives up a 1st-level hex, access to ever gaining a major or grand hex (and the feats that require those abilities), her familiar is the one to actually bind spirits (negating Share Granted Abilities) as well as ever being able to gain a vestigial companion, or even the minor ability exchanged for a vestigial companion.
In my opinion, both give up a fair amount in order to gain access to pact magic.
Amateur Occultist is a great feat; while it is for dabblers in pact magic, only granting a binder level of 1/2 character level, it gives you access to a single 1st level spirit (3 total with the 2 Starless spirits once you complete their Tasks), the spirit's abilities, and the possibility of a vestigial companion or other bond. I don't see this feat as useless and it is quite strong and is perfect for those who don't want to play an archetype that gives up desired features, gains undesired features, or disallows a different archetype due to the features replaced.
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That being said, I'm very interested in hearing your new ideas--are you thinking a series of feats or some tiered-feature replacement? How deep into pact magic could an archetype go? Could they gain a second spirit or lose Tunneled Lore altogether? How would this affect the uniquely flavored archetypes (Totemic Sage, Spirit Caller, Weird Witch)?
What I'm thinking is something like this:
You lose something minor at 1st level for Amateur Occultist. Then as you level up, you trade something minor for the ability to seal pacts with higher-level spirits. For instance, an arcanist might trade out his 1st level exploit for Amateur Occultist, then trade out the 5th level one for the ability to seal pacts with 2nd level spirits, and so on.
No, I won't be giving non-occultists the ability to seal pacts with multiple spirits.
That said, I think I might just be suffering from writer's doubts. I don't think I'm going to do a mass overhaul of the system, but I do think that I'm going to rewrite the Sybil so it doesn't give up spellcasting. I think what the Sybil currently is would be better captured as an archetype for occultists, rather than the magus.
That said, I think I might just be suffering from writer's doubts. I don't think I'm going to do a mass overhaul of the system, but I do think that I'm going to rewrite the Sybil so it doesn't give up spellcasting. I think what the Sybil currently is would be better captured as an archetype for occultists, rather than the magus.
I think that all but one or two of the archetypes in their current forms are great, and also believe it's just writer's doubts. As you can tell from this thread, your fans are quite happy with your work.
I agree with a rewrite of the Sybil, as the Spiritstrike power really starts to shine with multiple spirits, making the Occultist the perfect fit. I can't wait to see your new ideas for the Magus archetype as well.
If you still wanted to make Amateur Occultist more desirable at mid-to-high levels, you could make it a feat chain:
Focused Binding
Prereqs: Amateur Occultist, CL 11th
You can now bind a maximum of 2nd-level spirits; you do not automatically complete any spirit's Knowledge Tasks upon taking this feat.Practiced Occultist
Prereqs: Amateur Occultist, Focused Binding, CL 11th
If your binding check is high enough to gain your spirit's capstone empowerment you can use it 1/day, plus one additional time at 15th and 20th level.Expanded Astronomy
Prereqs: Amateur Occultist, Focused Binding, CL 11th
Select a constellation; you gain the ability to bind spirits of this constellation, but your effective binder level for binding checks is 1/4 your level.
I don't think Amateur Occultist needs to be a feat chain, but it's an option if you think it needs more "oomph."
I'm not worried about giving Amateur Occultist more oomph. Its already a LOT stronger than it was in 3.5 or even in our last edition of the Pact Magic Unbound series.
Speaking of Starless spirits.. The Sidebar on page 92 (Starless Spirits) mentions that you may not choose Starless spirits for feats (Such as Constellation Focus). Looks like that was from an earlier version and was simply missed when you changed it to be valid.
Speaking of Starless spirits.. The Sidebar on page 92 (Starless Spirits) mentions that you may not choose Starless spirits for feats (Such as Constellation Focus). Looks like that was from an earlier version and was simply missed when you changed it to be valid.
Yeah, I just caught that myself today. I also went to every tunneled lore class feature and specifically noted that you can bind spirits with your chosen constellation OR a starless spirit. I felt that it was a big enough part of the way the ability worked that I wasn't comfortable with making it a universal rule; its now a standard part of the way tunneled lore works.
To be honest, I had actually missed that you could bind Starless Spirits with Tunneled Lore or Amateur Occultist. Make's both abilities much more versatile.
No, I won't be giving non-occultists the ability to seal pacts with multiple spirits.
That said, I think I might just be suffering from writer's doubts. I don't think I'm going to do a mass overhaul of the system, but I do think that I'm going to rewrite the Sybil so it doesn't give up spellcasting. I think what the Sybil currently is would be better captured as an archetype for occultists, rather than the magus.
As I mentioned before, I agree with that change wholeheartedly. Making the current Sibyl an Occultist archetype is also a neat way to prevent Occultists from gaining the key features of the archetype via taking a couple of levels of the class, before continuing with their normal progression.
To be honest, I had actually missed that you could bind Starless Spirits with Tunneled Lore or Amateur Occultist. Make's both abilities much more versatile.
You can't with Amateur Occultist; you're still restricted to whatever constellation you choose.
You can't with Amateur Occultist; you're still restricted to whatever constellation you choose.
Ah--I thought it was similar to Tunneled Lore. If that's the case, can you select "Starless" as the constellation that you know?
Question for everyone:
What spirits do you guys feel are the most useful when combined with reserve spirit? I know Ubro is a good choice but I intend to go into Mascareri in the game I'm currently in so I want to figure out some reserve spirit shenanigans to go with the spiritbound masks.