Orich's page

I'm working on some pactmaker NPCs for my game and was re-reading the Vestigial Bonds section when I had a question:

With Vestigial Bonds, is there a limit to only one bond, no matter the number of spirits, or one bond per spirit?

As is currently written in the Vestigial Bond section, there is no limit.

And Circe is very much an exception to how most spirits function. Her real "powers" are her spell-like abilities and other granted abilities, whereas her major is very much an, "Oh snap!" button that you're likely not going to want to use.

Ah, I understand--the mechanics are a perfect fit, then. It makes her a prime candidate for Reweave Spellcasting, Undying Aid, or other features that replace/expend a spirit's Major Granted Ability. :)

Orich wrote:

I tried looking through the old feedback thread, and couldn't find the answer to this question.

Can you use Seance of Circe to evict a spirit that you bound using Seance of Circe? (It acts as if you had used Expel Spirit and spirits bound using Seance of Circe cannot be ended using Expel Spirit.)

Nope. That's specifically why the sentence is there—to prevent endless spirit cycling.

That's what I thought, but I wanted to make sure.

Due to those restrictions, that would mean Circe's Runes's major can be used a maximum of <Number of bound spirits> times per week (-1 if you can't expel her). If you use her major you're also locked into a poor pact with a spirit for a week with either no limited-use abilities or half uses for limited-use abilities for its entire duration.

While the associated penalties are balanced for what the ability gives you (and balanced vs. Expel Spirit), the week-long pact duration seems a bit harsh. It changes her ability from "emergency" to "only as a very last resort," which feels weird as a major. Even other situational-use majors aren't as limited (or even if they are, they don't have the penalties).

It seems like a 24-hour pact duration would be sufficient?

Granted, I'd still bind her for Rune of Circe and Circe's Fury, but I'd try to avoid using her major if possible.

Also, can you use Seance of Circe on Circe's Runes?

@Luthorne Great write-up for Chapter 1--I'll finish up the archetypes I was looking at and compare to your list so I don't repeat anything.

Some comments regarding what I've been reading so far (somewhat all over the place, really):

- The archetypes are really solid, balanced and with unique flavor. Also, you can still have a self-hating Pactsworn Assassin. :D

- The lore engulfing the book, from spirit legends to minor descriptions, is wonderful.

- Again, the artwork and style are amazing--really great job!

Circe's Runes
- Vesgtigial Bond: "...and can bypass a rune of Circe without setting it off." This is confusing, as "Rune of Circe" grants spell-like abilities, and only one of two of those can be set off (alarm, explosive runes) and they already have conditions to designate those who can bypass them. Maybe your runes could act as if affected by the Selective Spell metamagic feat for those chosen instead?

- Table 4-2: Circe's Runes: It looks like the Rune for "Spider" and "Tongue" have been switched from what they were in the previous PDF. (I'm assuming the rune for "Spider" should be the one with eight legs.)

[Mechanics]
I tried looking through the old feedback thread, and couldn't find the answer to this question.

Can you use Seance of Circe to evict a spirit that you bound using Seance of Circe? (It acts as if you had used Expel Spirit and spirits bound using Seance of Circe cannot be ended using Expel Spirit.)

Just for clarification, Pactsworn Protector and Empyrean Friar are the only archetypes that should have the "cannot take the Extra Binder Secret feat" restriction?

Just got through more archetypes--some more great changes! So far, every archetype I've read through seems viable and fun to play. Except for the anti-pact magic archetypes. . . who'd want to play those? ;) To be honest, I may drop one of those in my game to see what havoc it could wreak with my party!

Also, Alex, do you prefer I put the stuff I find in "spoiler" tags to save space or would you prefer it to just be in the post?

Can you elaborate on this? What's the issue you're seeing?

I think he's referring to the location of their legends and why they aren't in the Spirits chapter like with the other spirit legend stories, which all appear after the spirit in question.

Another of the smaller changes I like is that Tunneled Lore explicitly mentions binding starless spirits as well--I don't recall that from previous versions.

Page 32, Ergon
- Bloodline Powers: "...manifesting as bestially mutations...", should be "bestial."

Page 32, Ravaged
- Vortex Guard: "...the spirits that surround you becoming opaque while you bloodrage...", should be "become."

Page 35, Bloodravager
- Ravage Binder: "The bloodravager is considered to be a permanent pact with his ravager spirit...", should be "...to be in a permanent pact..."

Mechanics:
The Bloodravager isn't immune to the Charisma damage from the ravager spirit until 3rd level. According to the mechanics of the spirits, each day a ravager spirit is bound its host takes 1d4 Charisma damage that cannot be healed until the spirit is ousted, and at 0 Charisma the host's spirit is permanently exiled.

Wouldn't this mean that a Level 1 Bloodravager would quickly have his soul ejected from his body, becoming nothing but the host of the ravager spirit, adding the ravaged vessel template?

Would it make more sense for the Bloodravager to take no Charisma damage from the ravager spirit as part of the Ravage Binder feature?

My apologies if I'm misunderstanding the mechanics.

I am really enjoying the changes to some of the archetypes--so much so that I'd have trouble picking any given one!

For the [Wording] issues below, these are just things that sounded odd to me as I was reading--enough that it would take me out of reading for a moment. I give suggestions, but they are by no means the best option. :)

Page 10, 12, Constellation Aspects:
- Angel, Beast, Dark Beyond, Skull: Granted spell-like abilities are not italicized and spells from the APG have the APG denotation as all caps instead of a superscript.

Page 50, Mad Cultist
- Tunneled Lore: The last sentence refers to "him" instead of "her."

Page 78, God Binder
- The benefit refers to both "vestigial bond" and "vestigial boon." From the wording it seems "boon" should instead be "bond."

Page 101, Aza'zati
- "Vestigial Companion" should be "Vestigial Bond (Companion)."

So far I have to say that this is worth the wait--even worth more of a wait, truthfully!

The look of the book is wonderful! The in-page artwork is great, and the mixture of old and new art only enhances my enjoyment of it. The chapter art spreads are nothing short of amazing.

I really like the colorization of the pages--it's easier for me to find the information I need. And the gilding of the Spirit Seals really makes them pop.

I'm excited to go through and see the revisions from the older document I have--I have a full group of five players who are all dabblers of pact magic (one Pactsworn Champion, 4 Amateur Occultists) and they have all loved what pact magic brings to the game. One player in particular likes failing his binding check so that he falls under the influence of the spirit.

Again, great work! I really appreciate all the time you and Dario have spent on this!

I'm looking forward to seeing the completed book--so far the illustrations and recolors have been great!

Also another thanks from me for you being so active with the community and reading through tons of feedback.

I know this is going to be an amazing product and welcome addition to any Pathfinder fan!

(Sorry for the long absence from the thread, but I wanted to pop in to give my thanks and praise one more time.)

This question goes to some of the fellow players / play testers. Out of the spirits, which have you found to be the most generally useful? As in, not situationally useful? I think this input would help me in terms of playing the occultist better, and would love to hear thoughts on the subject.

As it stands, I know Al'Kra is, for the most part, generally useful. Which others do you think might fit the bill?

I always like Fey Barradu due to his versatility--his major works well for all sorts of builds, and although some of his minors are situational, they can still be useful. Ubro, of course, could be considered situational, but who would deny additional healing?

I'll dig through and suggest some of the others I tend to bind.

Alexander, I just wanted to mention how great the artwork is you've been showing us for the book--the pieces really fit the feel of the occult and I'm impressed with all the artists thus far!

Not that it matters at this stage, since we're fairly deep into it and are down to very minor adjustments and all, but, next Saturday the 18th I'm finally going to be able to get to play more of my occultist. While my results will have to be taken with a grain of salt due to my character having died and came back a vampire (thus effecting how the class will play), I'll give a rundown on what happened probably the Sunday after. If only for the fun of it.

Looking forward to hearing about it!

As for the secrets and feats question brought up, since I've only played the occultist, I've not really come across this problem. For me at least, it seems like they're in the right "spots" so to speak.

Yeah, I only play a pure Occultist, so I've not run into it either. It's when I started GMing with a Pactsworn Champion that this came up--before then I hadn't even considered it. Building some test archetype classes of the ones mentioned above I can see how access to those secrets would be beneficial, but I haven't been able to play test any of them in a real group yet.

I'm guessing that he didn't take the cavalier order than gives you Vestigial Protection as a bonus feat, then?

He's a Pactsworn Champion, the Paladin archetype.

He did look at Pactsworn Knight when deciding what character to play but liked the flavor of the Pactsworn Champion's Righteous Binding more than the Order of the Occult Eye/Pactsworn Knight flavor as it fit his character concept better.

I have a Pactsworn Champion in my game who is really enjoying Pact Magic, especially role-playing the personality influences and making the other PCs wonder what's going on (they're on their way to a scholar who will reveal some of the basics of the lost art of Pact Magic).

There are some Binder Secrets that really fit the idea of his character, namely Occult Weapon and Vestigial Protection, but his archetype has no access to binder secrets.

I have it currently house-ruled that he can take Extra Binder Secret (by substituting "Able to bind spirits" as the prerequisite); this prevents him from taking anything that has an Occultist level prerequisite but allows him to take the aforementioned secrets at the cost of a feat (and with me allowing the given secret). This also allows me to test the balance of granting him access to these secrets.

Some of the binder secrets (the above two, for example) seem like they would fit any of the pact magic archetypes that currently do not have access to binder secrets: Barbarian, Cavalier, Cleric, Druid, Gunslinger, Oracle, Paladin, Ranger, Skald, Slayer, Sorcerer, Swashbuckler, Warpriest, and Wizard.

Since they replace the vestigial bond of the bound spirit, it is always a trade-off and not a pure "bonus" binder secret (like Bountiful Abilities or Revelation of Brilliance) and is why I've allowed it in my game.

If Occult Weapon (and Double Occult Weapon) and Vestigial Protection were made feats, this would make them similar to Expel Spirits (a ritual) and Reserve Spirit (also a ritual) and be beneficial to all pact magic archetypes without altering which classes gain access to binder secrets. This could also apply to Unbarred, as gaining access to a constellation (at half-binder level for binding checks) at the cost of a feat would make it accessible to all the archetypes.

I may be in a one-off situation in my game in which a house-rule is the way to go.

What I proposed above, have any of you seen/experienced where having those secrets as feats would be better?

Quote:

Q: While suppressed, does a granted ability's spell-like abilities with an independent duration end completely? For example, N'alyia's mesmerize, which acts as charm person?

"Suppress: Removing all benefits (but not penalties) of being bound to a spirit. A suppressed granted ability cannot be activated and provides no benefits to a binder. Any effects created by a suppressed granted ability immediately end when it becomes suppressed. A suppressed major granted ability is considered expended for the purposes of all abilities. A suppressed vestigial companion disappears, causing any equipment given to it to fall to the ground in its space."

Thank you for the clarification and the revision is clear as well.

Quote:

Q: If Major Granted Abilities are considered expended for all abilities, when I first activate my Reserve Spirit do I need to wait 5 rounds until I can use the major ability?

No. The 5 rounds duration is a direct consequence of using the major granted ability; it isn't standard for all effects that expend major granted abilities. When a major granted ability is expended because it is being suppressed, it immediately becomes unexpended as soon as the suppression effect ends.

That said, if you use a major granted ability, suppress it, and then unsurpassed it before 5 rounds are up (or 4 if you have Rapid Recovery), the major granted ability will still be suppressed because the suppression doesn't override the use-based expenditure.

Adding this to the end of the Major Granted Ability section in Chapter 3 to clarify this. Is this worded well enough, or is it confusing?

"Multiple effects that expend a major granted ability do not stack; use the longer duration when determining how long a major granted ability is expended for."

I think the above may be a bit confusing--an ability can't be expended more than once that I am aware of. I think clarifying the suppression effect in regards to an already expended ability may clear things up across the board:

A suppressed major granted ability is considered expended for the purposes of all abilities, and an expended major granted ability that is suppressed retains its remaining expended rounds when unsuppressed.

I think that would make it easier to understand for Reserve Spirit's "positive" suppression as well as other "negative" suppression effects, like dismiss pact spirits. This would also make it more simple as your cooldown for an expended major ability doesn't start again until unsuppressed.

So, that being the case, that's exactly what I think I'm going to do. Now, I know this was two pages back:

FallenReality wrote:

Question for everyone:

What spirits do you guys feel are the most useful when combined with reserve spirit? I know Ubro is a good choice but I intend to go into Mascareri in the game I'm currently in so I want to figure out some reserve spirit shenanigans to go with the spiritbound masks.

But, since I'm going to be switching over, allow me to try and answer this even though its like a month or so old... I'm only going to go up to lv. 4 spirits though due to time.

The only thing to keep in mind here is that you use a Reserve Spirit in 1-minute increments, minimum of 1 minute. This means that you can use the Major Granted Ability twice (maybe once, see the question below) if you use it within the first few rounds of switching.

The other thing to keep in mind is that your Reserve Spirit's effects are suppressed when it is suppressed, minimizing the effectiveness of any long duration granted abilities (again, see below). Although this does bring up a few questions centered around suppression:

From the Key Terms for Pact Magic sidebar:

Suppress: Removing all benefits (but not penalties) of being bound to a spirit. A suppressed granted ability cannot be activated and does not provide its benefits to the binder. A suppressed spirit provides none of the benefits of its granted abilities to the binder. A suppressed major granted ability is considered expended for the purposes of all abilities. A suppressed vestigial companion disappears, causing any equipment given to it to fall to the ground in its space.

Key here is that it does not specify that the effects end, just that the binder does not receive any of the benefits.

Q: While suppressed, does a granted ability's spell-like abilities with an independent duration end completely? For example, N'alyia's mesmerize[i], which acts as [i]charm person?

Q: If Major Granted Abilities are considered expended for all abilities, when I first activate my Reserve Spirit do I need to wait 5 rounds until I can use the major ability?

Yes and no. Its supposed to work like the Dual Enhancement feat (Advanced Class Guide) and has been updated accordingly.

So, for example, let's say our occultist can add up to +2 to a weapon. Using double weapon, if she picks an enhancement bonus, that bonus is applied equally to both weapons without "doubling its cost," so adding +1 to two weapons only counts as +1 towards her total occult weapon ability. But if she decides to add a special weapon ability, that ability only applies to one weapon and isn't doubled accordingly.

So, for instance, an occultist capable of adding a +2 enhancement can add +2 to both ends of a quarterstaff, or +1 to one end and +1 flaming to the other. Flaming counts as +1 per weapon its on while the bonus is freely applied to both weapons.

Make sense?

Yes, thank you.

I don't understand this question.

My apologies--you can ignore this question--I was still thinking of the previous version of Occult Weapon where the occultist had to be wielding the weapon to gain any granted abilities and not the revised edition where it functions as a vestigial bond.

Double Occult Weapon Questions:

I don't remember these being addressed before, but please forgive me if I am wrong:

- Can the occultist select different properties for each of her weapons or do they both have the same properties?

- When granting properties to the weapons, is it 1 swift action for each weapon or is it 1 swift action for both weapons at the same time?

- Does the occultist still gain the bound spirit's granted abilities as long as she has at least one weapon or does she have to have both? If the former, it would also make Double Occult Weapon a good backup secret for those weapon-based pact magic classes afraid of losing their granted abilities on a disarm.

I think the new pactsworn hunter and pactsworn magus archetypes are great revisions.

I like how the pactsworn hunter's binding is still unique and meshes well with its look and feel.

I really enjoy the new pactsworn magus--the core features of the magus stay in place and it's no longer hindered by only being able to bind a single spirit since it retains its spellcasting.

I'm toying with the idea of giving the archetype diminished spellcasting, depending on people's reactions to it. I'm thinking its currently a little too strong too; the loss of the arcane pool is somewhat mitigated by the ability to pick up occult weapon, after all.

I see no problem with the pactsworn magus having Diminished Spellcasting; it seems it would be a fair exchange for what it gains with pact magic.

You can't with Amateur Occultist; you're still restricted to whatever constellation you choose.

Ah--I thought it was similar to Tunneled Lore. If that's the case, can you select "Starless" as the constellation that you know?

That said, I think I might just be suffering from writer's doubts. I don't think I'm going to do a mass overhaul of the system, but I do think that I'm going to rewrite the Sybil so it doesn't give up spellcasting. I think what the Sybil currently is would be better captured as an archetype for occultists, rather than the magus.

I think that all but one or two of the archetypes in their current forms are great, and also believe it's just writer's doubts. As you can tell from this thread, your fans are quite happy with your work.

I agree with a rewrite of the Sybil, as the Spiritstrike power really starts to shine with multiple spirits, making the Occultist the perfect fit. I can't wait to see your new ideas for the Magus archetype as well.

If you still wanted to make Amateur Occultist more desirable at mid-to-high levels, you could make it a feat chain:

Focused Binding

Prereqs: Amateur Occultist, CL 11th
You can now bind a maximum of 2nd-level spirits; you do not automatically complete any spirit's Knowledge Tasks upon taking this feat.

Practiced Occultist
Prereqs: Amateur Occultist, Focused Binding, CL 11th
If your binding check is high enough to gain your spirit's capstone empowerment you can use it 1/day, plus one additional time at 15th and 20th level.

Expanded Astronomy
Prereqs: Amateur Occultist, Focused Binding, CL 11th
Select a constellation; you gain the ability to bind spirits of this constellation, but your effective binder level for binding checks is 1/4 your level.

I don't think Amateur Occultist needs to be a feat chain, but it's an option if you think it needs more "oomph."

So a quick update on what I'm working on right now, because I've been rather quite for the past few days.

In looking at the pact magic archetypes for non-occultist classes, I'm wondering if ANY of the archetypes make a fair trade for pact magic. As written now, some of them give up things like ONE arcanist exploit or ONE hex for bind spirits, then never have to give up anything substantial again. At that point, its like, "Why would you EVER take the Amateur Occultist feat? The archetype gives you the same benefit at FULL binder level."

Right now, the idea that's currently flying around my brain is altering the archetypes so they all grant Amateur Occultist as a bonus feat, then offer a way for each class to improve their maximum spirit level. I'd like some feedback on this idea.

The Arcanist gives up a 1st-level exploit but also has one less prepared spell per level, resulting in 0 spells known at each new spell level gained, delaying casting these spells unless Expanded Arcana is taken.

The Witch gives up a 1st-level hex, access to ever gaining a major or grand hex (and the feats that require those abilities), her familiar is the one to actually bind spirits (negating Share Granted Abilities) as well as ever being able to gain a vestigial companion, or even the minor ability exchanged for a vestigial companion.

In my opinion, both give up a fair amount in order to gain access to pact magic.

Amateur Occultist is a great feat; while it is for dabblers in pact magic, only granting a binder level of 1/2 character level, it gives you access to a single 1st level spirit (3 total with the 2 Starless spirits once you complete their Tasks), the spirit's abilities, and the possibility of a vestigial companion or other bond. I don't see this feat as useless and it is quite strong and is perfect for those who don't want to play an archetype that gives up desired features, gains undesired features, or disallows a different archetype due to the features replaced.

------------------------------------------------------------

That being said, I'm very interested in hearing your new ideas--are you thinking a series of feats or some tiered-feature replacement? How deep into pact magic could an archetype go? Could they gain a second spirit or lose Tunneled Lore altogether? How would this affect the uniquely flavored archetypes (Totemic Sage, Spirit Caller, Weird Witch)?

Playtest v3 Binder Secret Analysis

@Orich I'm still trying to decide how I want to respond to your comments. Most of your "questions" draw the intent of, "Please make pact magic even better for 9th level spellcasters," which is something I'm not interested in doing. (And a fair of those questions are just statements challenging my design philosophy with a question mark slapped on the end, jeopardy-style, which I found frustrating.)

I'm also not particularly interested in homogenizing archetypes any more then I already have, so you're going to need actual gameplay data to convince me to change any of those caster classes around.

My goal isn't to cause you any frustration and for that I apologize.

I tried to separate them into questions and observations to try to avoid Jeopardy-style questions. I also do not mean for my analysis to be "must-have changes;" they are meant to simply be questions or comments that I had while reading the material.

I do not mean to challenge your design philosophy; my desire is to understand it. For example, the Sorcerer and Arcanist losing a spell known of each level causes them to have 0 spells known when they first gain access to their higher-level spell slots. To me, it seems harsh, but you have the experience that I don't that led to this decision--much like the revision of Soul Weaver from its previous form, which I understand and agree with completely.

I enjoy the look and feel of the pact magic classes as I do with the rest of pact magic and I don't want them to lose their uniqueness, either.

Please do not worry about answering my questions/observations, as you already have with this post.

Again, my apologies--I truly enjoy this product and am honored to be a part of it.

Playtest v3 Archetype Analysis

Playtest v3 is ALIVE!

Thanks for the birthday wishes, and I'll get back to you in a bit, Andrew. Gotta talk to Dario first.

Sorry I'm late, but Happy Birthday as well! And I just got the e-mail about the updated document, so I'm going to dig into it--normally you don't give out gifts on your own birthday, but I'll gladly accept it! :D

v3 Notes:

— The Occult Sadist and the Pact Protector archetypes (inquisitor) got some tweaks; the ones for the Pact Protector are fairly large. I'll be looking for feedback on those changes. Especially because I'm worried that the new pact protector is TOO good compared to the sibyl.

— Ubro got adjusted. He grants channel energy as a minor granted ability (1 + Cha; healing only, exactly like the life mystery revelation), has an ability that allows him to grant temporary hit points to another creature as his major, and his minor was altered to allow him to deal damage to undead and evil outsiders with his channel energy at the cost of the sand skill granted ability.

— I also adjusted Cave Mother's gather provisions ability to tone down the healing a little bit.

The general description of the Pact Protector and Ubro changes sound good--while I didn't use Cave Mother much I'd like to see the revised healing of her ability as well.

With these updates you're giving us you're making me wish it was next week already. :D

More notes:

In v3, the Favored Class Options for the occultist will include three new races from the Advanced Race Guide / Bestiary 4: gathlains, wyvarans, and wyrwoods.

I'm looking forward to v3 and can't wait 'til I can get my hands on it. :)

Finally, there's ONE section that I have sitting on my lap that isn't done: the frehmin race. Here's the deal: your feedback has simmered down. Because there's less feedback, there's less changes and responses that I need to make, so I can work a little bit faster on the frehmin. I can probably finish the whole race by next week. Alternatively, I can update the playtest to v3 tonight or tomorrow and have it out to you immediately, but depending on how many changes and responses come up, it might take me as late as early June to get v4 out. What would you guys prefer?

I prefer to have it as complete as you feel it needs to be before handing it out--as much as I'd like to have it this second, I don't want to give partial/incomplete feedback if waiting a week would result in full feedback.

That being said, I'm excited to see all the new stuff as well as all the changes!

And I'm also really liking the art direction for the book! The image shown in the update is really great--I'm guessing it's showing Aza making a pact with Aza'zati?

Oh, absolutely - I have no concerns about losing Profession making the archetype underpowered, the fluff just seemed a little odd.

I see the fluff as their obsession or love of knowledge is so much that it makes it tough to hold down a normal job, as a normal job would be bland and boring.

You could argue that they technically have Profession (Scholar) due to the copious Knowledge checks they have and as GM I would allow them to use a relevant Knowledge check to earn money in a large enough city, as only the larger cities would require that sort of job.

Looking at the SRD, it appears that it's not just the loremaster - most (all?) of the prestige classes don't get profession as a class skill. I guess you're meant to inherit your profession skill (or lack thereof) from your base classes? Either way, I think that wizard is a much fairer class to compare the occult scholar to than loremaster.

Personally I think the revisions to the Occult Scholar more than make up for the lack of Profession as a class skill. You can still take it, you just won't get the +3 bonus--or you can take a trait that gives it to you as a class skill if you really need it.

Some thoughts for other ways deformities or mutations could arise...

Great ideas, Luthorne! I think these could also apply to a wide variety of debuffs in general and would be helpful to many GMs.

Brilliant Binder

A great change here, incorporating the old Revelation of Brilliance to make this stronger.

Scholarly Revelation

I really like the pact augmentation now that it brings back revelations from the Lore mystery. The only issue here is that it doesn't list how the occultist's binder level is calculated. I think oracle level = occultist level would be fair due to being unable to take Extra Revelation.

True Revelation

This is nice that it no longer requires the material component while bound to a spirit.

Overall these changes make the Occult Scholar much more attractive as an archetype and it would be one I'd have to give serious thought about not taking.

Revelation of Brilliance

Wow--a great change here! Another low-level secret that any Occultist can take and it allows her to shore up those Knowledge checks. The bonus for Occult Scholars allowing untrained Knowledge checks makes it attractive for them as well.

Basically, the Malebolge Moors make you experience what your eternal punishment in Hell would be if you were to die and be damned there. If you have a better way of wording that in the same number of characters, I'd be appreciative.

I have a few suggestions that clock in at under 150 characters--hopefully they might be able to help.

Demons from the Pit swarm the seal and torment you with Hellfire. After countless time a member of the Malebolge Moors appears to seal the pact. (145 characters)

The seal drops away as you are thrust into the Pit. After endless torments by demons one of the Malebolge Moors frees you to seal the pact. (140 characters)

Hellfire surrounds you as demons inflict upon you the torments of the damned, only stopping when one of the Malebolge Moors appears to seal the pact. (149 characters)

So, a question. I'm going to need an example creature for the Spirit-Touched template and the Carnival Animal template. What sort of example creatures do you want to see for those templates? (I was thinking either a Carnival Lion or a Carnival Tyrannosaurus might be fun.) For Spirit-Touched, I was going to do a Youth warrior or something similar. Thoughts?

I think Carnival Lion and Youth Warrior would be simple for those new to templates to understand and easily see where the modifications from the templates are. These would also be common creatures for those templates to be applied to.

Do you think we're good for V3 or are there still outstanding issues that you need us to take a look at, Alexander?

I saw the Kickstarter update--great to hear V3 is almost ready! Any areas you need us to shore up as part of it?

What are you looking for in terms of eyes on the prestige classes? Just possible mechanical problems?

Do you think we're good for V3 or are there still outstanding issues that you need us to take a look at, Alexander?

bookrat wrote:

I'm torn. On one hand, it's difficult to not have a new spirit every level or every few levels after leveling up. On the other, I love the idea that occult magic must be researched in order to continue learning about it.

Ultimately, though, I have to side towards the research and not the auto gain from level. Most GM's will allow for the time, even in Adventure Paths. I already allow extra time for my players to craft, research new spells, or have items commissioned for them. I don't see an issue in my...

The book also has rules in Chapter 3 for rewarding Knowledge Tasks or even full-out spirits for free. Ultimately, the occultist isn't (and shouldn't) be a class that you show up with at a game and say, "Oh yeah, by the way, I'm playing this 3PP class called the occultist." The mechanic is intentional; it fosters the intent that you'll TALK with your GM in order to get the most out of the class. Because if you don't, you won't be finding cool, occult rules and such around the places you travel to. And that would be such a shame.

In the game I'm running with the Pactsworn Champion, I'm letting him choose his first spirit as normal--knowing that he doesn't have high Knowledge checks, he'll either have to rely on the party wizard/librarian to help him track down the lore, receive them via dreams, seek them out in dungeons/ruins, or I drop books for him.

Knowing his current playstyle it will either be the wizard helping him research or him getting them through divine insights. I may be giving him a spirit every other level depending upon the downtime in the campaign to ensure he's able to get the most out of the archetype.

I see most GMs working with the player to discover what's best for the campaign.

It probably is and it probably should be assumed as such. That's the typical rule, I'm just spelling it out so a particularly mean-spirited, militant GM doesn't try to tell you that you need to pay another standard action to use the ability.

As someone who has played under those types of GMs before I am very appreciative of the clarification! :)

Marat Changes

I enjoy the new version of Marat.

Would it be possible for Marat's bodyguard ability to also provide In Harm's Way at a higher level? It seems to work with his legend that he would be willing to take the hit for another. (Provided space, of course, as Marat's page is pretty full.)

Can the Vestigial Bond also provide some additional benefit at higher levels? The constant mage armor effect is quite nice, but you give up two minor abilities and any other bond for it. Can it also provide shield 3+Cha/day or some other thematic abilities?

The only thing I'd change to that is to specify that hearing surge cannot be used to harm others (even undead).

I missed the edit window, but good point. Thanks, bookrat.

That's the other concern I had. No other major effectively "stops working" after X uses per day. There are a couple of capstones that do that, but no majors.

I've been mulling over Ubro's abilities and have some suggestions.

The worry that I have with Ubro's channel has nothing to do with how many times an individual creature can benefit from the ability and everything to do with how often the ability can be used. In my 1,000 townsfolk example, the concern wasn't that you'd cram a thousand people into your 30-foot burst to heal them; it was that you could effectively go door-to-door delivering house calls, healing every person in down 3 + Cha times per day. A cleric cannot do anything even remotely close to that, and its why I'm apprehensive about leaving channel energy as the major granted ability for Ubro.

I understand--the one time it came up in the game I was playing in no one in town needed healing.

I think changing the major would address that issue as well as the major ability becoming "useless" regarding your party after a few times.

General question that just game up in game, and I'm not sure where to find the answer. If a spirit you have a Poor Pact with is suppressed (Reserve Spirit), do you still suffer it's influence while it's suppressed?

My gut say's yes.

In the Grimoire Reserve Spirit refers you to Performing a Pact Ritual in Chapter 3. The binding check for Reserve Spirit is treated as any other binding check, including the penalties of a poor pact, but its granted abilities are suppressed.

So, short answer, yes, you do suffer the influence. And for further evidence:

This functions as a pact made with any other spirit, except after the conclusion of the pact you gain none of the spirit's benefits except its physical sign, which you can show or suppress normally, and its personality influence if you made a poor pact with it.

All binding checks have been summed up and refer to Chapter 3 rather than detailing the effects per secret/feat.

Not enough space.

Well, fudge. Maybe when the next version comes out we can see if we can squeeze it in there if any other revisions need to be made in that chapter.

It's always better to have too much awesome than not enough. :)

Do you remember a few weeks ago when I said, "Hey, binder secrets are formatted like feats and not rogue talents, i.e. they have big, bold titles and prerequisite lines and benefit lines, should I change them to use the same formatting as rogue talents?" And how everyone said, "No." This is a consequence of that. The reason there is no binder secret that grants a feat has nothing to do with the mechanics and everything to do with the formatting. Having an ability that is formatted similarly to a feat state, "You gain a bonus feat!" is confusing.

Again, it has NOTHING to do with the mechanics and EVERYTHING to do with the layout.

I don't want to give up the nicer formatting as it makes it much easier to read/understand the various binder secrets.

If there is no issue with the idea mechanically, what if it was added to the general description under the Binder Secrets session?

At the indicated levels, an occultist receives a binder secret, a bit of forgotten lore that allows her to use her occult powers in new and exciting ways. She can also choose to gain an occult feat in place of a binder secret. In addition to standard secrets...