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Thanks to our wonderful backers, we generated almost 400% of our stretch goal, and now Dario and I are ready to begin the Backer Playtest for the Grimoire of Lost Souls!
Please use this forum thread to keep all of your questions, observations, and feedback consolidated. Please do not e-mail Alex or Dario with specific questions; if you want a timely answer, this is the best place to place your question.
So, what sort of feedback are we looking for?
1) Class Feedback: How do the classes look, both on paper and at the table. How do the pact magic archetypes compare to the standard occultist? How does the standard occultist compare to other Pathfinder RPG base classes? How do occult archetypes compare to their standard classes?
2) Feats: How do the feats compare to the power level of other feats? Are they fun/interesting/exciting? What feats do you really look forward to getting? What feels feel more like a feat tax?
3) Pactmaking: Are the packmaking rules clear and concise? Do you still have any other questions about the pactmaking process or binding in general after reading this section? If so, what?
4) Spirits: Are the spirits balanced against one another? Are there any unclear spirits or abilities in the document? Do all of the spirits feel fun, unique, and flavorful?
5) Spells: Are the spells clear and concise? Do they feel balanced against spells from the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook? Do you feel as though there are any iconic pact magic spells missing from the section?
As the playtest progresses, we'll continue to add more chapters to the playtest document for you to look at. Enjoy the playtest, and thanks for participating!
Just glossing over it right now, but I do have a question regarding Marat's, Unimpeded minor ability.
It says, "While you are bound to Marat, your speed is not modified by armor and you reduce the armor check penalty that you suffer from wearing armor by half your binder level. Your movement is impeded normally by medium and heavy armor and by medium and heavy loads."
So... is this ability only usable with light armor then? If so, most of them don't have much effect on speed and ACP. Also, is this effect intended to be used with Marat's Body minor ability? Because if so, it seems the last line of Unimpeded denies that entirely since Full Plate is heavy armor if I recall correctly.
I will also say, that looking at it, Milo of Clyde's, Milo's Truthtelling minor ability, doesn't seem like it'd be useful all that much. More do to them just not having to talk whatsoever and therefore not tell the truth. If there were a way to coax them to talk implemented, such as a Diplomacy or Intimidate check I could see it, but right now the most I see getting out of it, is knowing when the enemy is attempting to lie, by not speaking. Of course, maybe the latter was the intent as a sort of detective feel. "I see. Not talking eh? So you do know what happened on the night of January the 5th 1987!"
EDIT: Just saw Verbose. Lovin it! :)
It says, "While you are bound to Marat, your speed is not modified by armor and you reduce the armor check penalty that you suffer from wearing armor by half your binder level. Your movement is impeded normally by medium and heavy armor and by medium and heavy loads."
It should say, "Your movement is impeded normally by medium and heavy loads." The armor line shouldn't be in there. That'll be fixed in the next update to the playtest document.
I will also say, that looking at it, Milo of Clyde's, Milo's Truthtelling minor ability, doesn't seem like it'd be useful all that much. More do to them just not having to talk whatsoever and therefore not tell the truth. If there were a way to coax them to talk implemented, such as a Diplomacy or Intimidate check I could see it, but right now the most I see getting out of it, is knowing when the enemy is attempting to lie, by not speaking. Of course, maybe the latter was the intent as a sort of detective feel. "I see. Not talking eh? So you do know what happened on the night of January the 5th 1987!"
Look at it like this: its worded EXACTLY like zone of truth, except it targets one touched creature instead of a targeted area.
After a quick skim through, I have to say that I like a lot of the editing you guys went through when it came to clarifying certain abilities. I'll be sure to have a thorough reading of the material and get back to ya if I see any issues with it.
First, let me start off by saying I'm glad that I backed this project--I'm excited to see the final product and was looking forward to receiving the playtest documentation!
I have a few comments about what I've read thus far (I've only gotten partway through the class chapter)--Lots of text incoming):
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Occultist:
I'm really liking the new class progression and the new features Occult Knowledge and Spirit Mastery. The Constellation Aspects have also gotten a great boost and I can see me binding specific spirits to get these.
Pact Augmentations: For Accuracy, the description mentions taking it at 1st / 4th / 10th / 16th level, which doesn't match the progression of Pact Augmentations nor the restriction that it can only start being taken at 6th level. In general I also don't think the level restrictions are necessary seeing as how the more powerful ones (Fortification, Invulnerability, Resilience, Accuracy) need to be taken multiple times in order to be effective. And to double-check, these are permanent choices as opposed to being made at the time of binding? If permanent, it takes away some from the Occultist's "prepare differently for each day" mentality.
Archetypes:
- Bind Spirits: Should all of the archetypes be using Charisma to determine DC of abilities / binding? It seems that these archetypes can give up a lot to be able to bind spirits, but then not be good at it. It seems these should be based off of the primary stat for the class instead.
- Tunneled Lore: This ability both hurts more and less at the same time as compared to the previous version. I don't know how to feel about it yet due to not having looked at all the spirits. So far I'm leaning toward liking it since you can get more constellations unbarred via the Unbarred secret and most of the binding archetypes have access to those secrets.
Bard:
- Soul Musing: The wording makes it sound like it could apply to more than one constellation, even though the Soul Muse only selects one constellation as part of Tunneled Lore.
Cavalier:
- Order of the Occult Eye, Lingering Empowerment: I don't see this mentioned anywhere.
Cleric:
- I don't see how the Unbarred secret's wording applies to the Tunneled Domain feature of the cleric. Selecting a constellation has no baring on the domain spell list; it's the domain that determines the constellation. Spontaneous casting would only apply to the one domain the Cleric has chosen (and anything gained by Domain Lore).
Druid:
- Spirit Shape: Does this ability follow the uses per day and duration of the normal Druid Wild Shape? Or is it supposed to be limitless like with the previous version of the Pagan? If it's not limitless, this combined with everything else that needs to be given up seems a bit much for only one of three specific constellations.
Gunslinger:
- I like the idea of the Occult Avenger, but I'm having trouble with the limitation of the Revenge Pact. It requires an in-game reason and then limits the binding by not only Tunneled Lore but also the mark's type. How does this function if you don't know the mark's type? It seems it would be more effective as having something similar to a Ranger's Favored Enemy to limit the spirits you can bind to (every X levels you can choose a new Favored Enemy, you can only bind spirits that have that Favored Enemy) and have that count as Tunneled Lore. Forgive me if I'm not understanding the archetype correctly, but it seems it'd be difficult to play.
Occultist:
- Seal Etched Occultist: This seems. . . very underpowered. You give up your 1st level secret for a secret you could take a fifth instead, and lose access to one constellation as well as only gaining pact augmentations when bound to a spirit that you have the seal for. The previous incarnation had some really nice Pact Augmentations, but with this version it just seems like something to take if you want to make your Occultist less powerful.
- Unbound Occultist: Monstrous Aspects mentions that the occultist ". . .selects one type of animal and gains one monstrous aspect...that the chosen animal possesses. . ." Is this animal selection permanent? Does it change when the Occultist binds spirits for the day? Is this the Animal type? I don't know of any animals that have Rock Throwing or Lifesense off the top of my head. I don't think it needs that restriction as the feature further stats that it is a real mutation that is a physical sign that cannot be suppressed. Also the feature doesn't state which Occultist feature the Aspects replace (I'm assuming Pact Augmentations)?
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Please note that I really enjoy everything I'm reading thus far--those are just some questions / comments that popped in my head as I began reading. Overall I think the Grimoire is bringing a lot more versatility and options to binding!
Pact Augmentations: For Accuracy, the description mentions taking it at 1st / 4th / 10th / 16th level, which doesn't match the progression of Pact Augmentations nor the restriction that it can only start being taken at 6th level. In general I also don't think the level restrictions are necessary seeing as how the more powerful ones (Fortification, Invulnerability, Resilience, Accuracy) need to be taken multiple times in order to be effective. And to double-check, these are permanent choices as opposed to being made at the time of binding? If permanent, it takes away some from the Occultist's "prepare differently for each day" mentality.
For now, they're permanent. The "switch'em around" aspect is cool, but I felt that there needed to be some more grounded concepts in the class. One of the reasons you've never seen me try to make up an occultist stat block is that its already SO versatile compared to virtually other classes. Pact augmentations felt like a good place to just nail down some choices.
- Bind Spirits: Should all of the archetypes be using Charisma to determine DC of abilities / binding? It seems that these archetypes can give up a lot to be able to bind spirits, but then not be good at it. It seems these should be based off of the primary stat for the class instead.
Yes. Its part of the "make the trades matter more" initiative for non-occultist classes. I think I'm going to let you have a trait or a feat or something that will allow you to switch ability scores, but its going to be an investment; another place where you can say, "Okay, this is a trade-off that this class makes for pact magic."
- Tunneled Lore: This ability both hurts more and less at the same time as compared to the previous version. I don't know how to feel about it yet due to not having looked at all the spirits. So far I'm leaning toward liking it since you can get more constellations unbarred via the Unbarred secret and most of the binding archetypes have access to those secrets.
Yup. One of the big themes of the class overhaul is, "The occultist has ALL of the tricks, and [other classes] are just borrowing them."
Bard:
- Soul Musing: The wording makes it sound like it could apply to more than one constellation, even though the Soul Muse only selects one constellation as part of Tunneled Lore.
Just cleaned up the wording; it should only apply to the one spirit that you select with tunneled lore.
Cleric:
- I don't see how the Unbarred secret's wording applies to the Tunneled Domain feature of the cleric. Selecting a constellation has no baring on the domain spell list; it's the domain that determines the constellation. Spontaneous casting would only apply to the one domain the Cleric has chosen (and anything gained by Domain Lore).
I've cleaned up the wording for this one significantly. Basically, the ability now tells you that you how unbarred spirit works with it if you manage to get it somehow.
I need to take a closer look at the cavalier and druid to answer your comments about them.
Gunslinger:
- I like the idea of the Occult Avenger, but I'm having trouble with the limitation of the Revenge Pact. It requires an in-game reason and then limits the binding by not only Tunneled Lore but also the mark's type. How does this function if you don't know the mark's type? It seems it would be more effective as having something similar to a Ranger's Favored Enemy to limit the spirits you can bind to (every X levels you can choose a new Favored Enemy, you can only bind spirits that have that Favored Enemy) and have that count as Tunneled Lore. Forgive me if I'm not understanding the archetype correctly, but it seems it'd be difficult to play.
On my radar. Will say more when I have answers.
Occultist:
- Seal Etched Occultist: This seems. . . very underpowered. You give up your 1st level secret for a secret you could take a fifth instead, and lose access to one constellation as well as only gaining pact augmentations when bound to a spirit that you have the seal for. The previous incarnation had some really nice Pact Augmentations, but with this version it just seems like something to take if you want to make your Occultist less powerful.
- Unbound Occultist: Monstrous Aspects mentions that the occultist ". . .selects one type of animal and gains one monstrous aspect...that the chosen animal possesses. . ." Is this animal selection permanent? Does it change when the Occultist binds spirits for the day? Is this the Animal type? I don't know of any animals that have Rock Throwing or Lifesense off the top of my head. I don't think it needs that restriction as the feature further stats that it is a real mutation that is a physical sign that cannot be suppressed. Also the feature doesn't state which Occultist feature the Aspects replace (I'm assuming Pact Augmentations)?
I'll take a look at these two. Off of the top of my head, the Unbound Occultist was supposed to be able to trade monstrous aspects each day, like a constellation aspect.
For Serapith, the signs and influence appear to be Jayna Warlock's
Serapith affects you in the following ways:
Physical Sign: Your body looks and feels like your aspect
of seven element. When you activate one of Jayna Warlock’s
granted abilities, you are engulfed by a nimbus of your element.
Personality: You find charity and goodwill insulting. You
must act kindly at all times.
Favored Ally: Outsider (genies and geniekin)
Favored Enemy: Outsider (elementals)
Ah, thanks a lot for explaining about the non-Occultist binding. I think a feat would be a great tax to pay to get a different ability modifier used for binding.
As a minor editing issue, some of the Binding/Diminished Spellcasting descriptions of the archetype mention "weird witch" or "occult avenger" instead of the relevant archetype, and some of the spirits mention "You possess a druid level equal to your binder level when determining your auroch's abilities." even if the companion gained isn't an auroch. Let me know if you need more details as to where these occur.
Some archetypes specify that their binding restrictions apply even if multiclassing (Spirit Caller), and some don't--would it be better for all the multiclassing information just be in the multiclassing section?
Fringe Binder
- I feel that the application of Sneak Attack only to the favored enemy of the bound spirit is a bit harsh, as Sneak Attack is what makes a Rogue a Rogue. Maybe it could be diminished by 1/2 or 3/4 for non-Favored enemies instead? I would suggest Tunneled Lore as well but I can see why you didn't have it for this archetype.
Pactsworn Warpriest
- Bind Spirits mentions that it replaces "the sorcerer's bloodline spells."
Soul Weaver
- The Soul Weaver seems to have lost quite a bit since its last incarnation. I like how Reweave Spellcasting is a feat now available to anyone that meets the prereqs, but the Soul Weaver seems to suffer a bit of its uniqueness for it. Maybe the Soul Weaver could get a "better" version of the feat as a class feature? Not as strong as before, but maybe somewhere in the middle?
Multiclassing
This section explains Binder Level, Additional Spirits, and Maximum Spirt Level very well. I think Barred Spirits and Constellations could be cleaned up a little since it refers to Soul Muse having three unbarred constellations. An example or two (like from the Spirit Caller archetype) would help clarify this.
For the Order of the Occult Eye, its 8th level and 15th level abilities were adjusted (8th level) and replaced (15th level). Essentially, the vestigial protection ability (8th) level was made into a binder secret and the 15th level ability grants another new binder secret, called improved vestigial protection. The end result is the same, except now the 15th level ability actually exists AND other characters can take the cool, vestigial bond-replacing awesomeness that is vestigial protection.
Also, I went back and clarified some rules about vestigial bonds that weren't evident, like you can only have one bond between every spirit that you're bound to and that you need to trade a granted ability (or more, in Prime Ravager's case) for the power.
For Serapith, the signs and influence appear to be Jayna Warlock's
Serapith affects you in the following ways:
Physical Sign: Your body looks and feels like your aspect
of seven element. When you activate one of Jayna Warlock’s
granted abilities, you are engulfed by a nimbus of your element.
Personality: You find charity and goodwill insulting. You
must act kindly at all times.
Favored Ally: Outsider (genies and geniekin)
Favored Enemy: Outsider (elementals)
Good catch! Will fix.
As a minor editing issue, some of the Binding/Diminished Spellcasting descriptions of the archetype mention "weird witch" or "occult avenger" instead of the relevant archetype, and some of the spirits mention "You possess a druid level equal to your binder level when determining your auroch's abilities." even if the companion gained isn't an auroch. Let me know if you need more details as to where these occur.
Which archetype?
If you could make a list of when those vestigial companion errors crop up, it'd be helpful.
Some archetypes specify that their binding restrictions apply even if multiclassing (Spirit Caller), and some don't--would it be better for all the multiclassing information just be in the multiclassing section?
No. Some archetypes have multiclassing rules that are unique to them. Having those rules with those archetypes makes the most sense, in my opinion. Like most things, its still on the table for discussion if you (and other backers) feel strongly about it.
Fringe Binder
- I feel that the application of Sneak Attack only to the favored enemy of the bound spirit is a bit harsh, as Sneak Attack is what makes a Rogue a Rogue. Maybe it could be diminished by 1/2 or 3/4 for non-Favored enemies instead? I would suggest Tunneled Lore as well but I can see why you didn't have it for this archetype.
The drastically reduced sneak attack is the trade-off that you make for this archetype. I could alter the wording so your sneak attack damage is always minimized (1 point per die) against non-Favored Enemies; what sayeth the backers?
Pactsworn Warpriest
- Bind Spirits mentions that it replaces "the sorcerer's bloodline spells."
Whoops.
Soul Weaver
- The Soul Weaver seems to have lost quite a bit since its last incarnation. I like how Reweave Spellcasting is a feat now available to anyone that meets the prereqs, but the Soul Weaver seems to suffer a bit of its uniqueness for it. Maybe the Soul Weaver could get a "better" version of the feat as a class feature? Not as strong as before, but maybe somewhere in the middle?
In all my games using the soul weaver, that archetype was CRAZY powerful. So yeah, I tried to tone it down a bit. I'd say that of all the classes, it got hit the hardest and that's intentional.
Multiclassing
This section explains Binder Level, Additional Spirits, and Maximum Spirt Level very well. I think Barred Spirits and Constellations could be cleaned up a little since it refers to Soul Muse having three unbarred constellations. An example or two (like from the Spirit Caller archetype) would help clarify this.
The three unbarred bit is from the original book, where the soul muse did have three. I'll go in and see what I can clean up.
Feats:
- Occultist: Can an occultist still choose an occult feat in place of a binder secret?
- Amateur Occultist: I know you posted this in the other thread, but I just want to mention it again here. I really enjoy this rewrite.
- Craft Crystallized Pain: One of the prereqs is "Maximum Spirit Level 4th." Does this mean "at least" 4th or "if you can bind higher-level spirits you can't take this feat?" I think it's just rewording if it's the former--"Able to bind 4th-level spirits" would then be equivalent to "Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells."
- Demon Eye / Demon Eye Exemplar: I like these feats, but could the once/day limitation instead just be in minutes per day equal to your character level? And for aspects that are 3 + X times / Day it's equal to 1 + the total number of Demon Eye / Demon Eye Exemplar feats you've taken? This would allow the passive aspects to be more useful in 1-minute increments while limiting the per day aspects.
- Flexible Pactbinding: This feat is now more flexible--you can't get +10 to your checks, making it harder to reach the capstone, but that also forces you to not bind a spirit for more than 24 hours unless you really need to. The penalty being maximized to -5 for reducing the duration also makes that more useful since you can still hit a good pact with a -5.
- Permanent Pact: WOW. This feat is GREAT. While it has a two feat tax, getting a permanent spirit opens to door to whole new combinations of classes/abilities. This allows even the Tunneled Lore archetypes to get a second spirit! One question--it states you cannot get the Capstone Empowerment unless you perform the binding ritual during the day--does this mean if you have a magic item or spell that grants you the capstone that you also don't get it in these cases? Also, since Spirit Focus allows you to change the spirit each level, can you change it from the one you get with Permanent Pact?
- Reweave Spellcasting: Having this as a feat for any arcane caster is another great addition to the binding arsenal. Considering that it's a feat now, could it also apply to divine casters, not just arcane ones? The Oracle and Occult Priest would make sense to be able to do this type of thing.
- Tailor Spell: The feat says "When you cast a bouncing spell that alters the target's size. . ."
Pactmaking
- Page 85, Step 4--Barter with the Spirit: I know that the binding check is defined in the sidebar on page 83, but I think it would also be beneficial for it to be mentioned again here. (I had to go look for where the binding check was defined, actually.)
Multiclassting
- Would this section make more sense to be with the classes? I'm not sure, I can see it either way. Anyone else have an opinion?
This section explains Binder Level, Additional Spirits, and Maximum Spirt Level very well. I think Barred Spirits and Constellations could be cleaned up a little since it refers to Soul Muse having three unbarred constellations. An example or two (like from the Spirit Caller archetype) would help clarify this.
This any better for you?
Barred Spirits or Constellations: Some class features, such as the tunneled lore class feature, can end up restricting which spirits that the occultist can seal pacts with. If a multiclass binder possesses levels in multiple classes that bar spirits by constellation, she must take the worse restriction. For example, the occultist base class is less restrictive than the warbinder fighter archetype because the occultist bars no constellations while the warbinder bars all constellations save for one of the warbinder’s choice. Furthermore, the warbinder is less restrictive than the occult sadist inquisitor archetype, as the latter bars all constellations save for one, specific constellation (the fiend constellation). So, for instance, a multiclass occultist/warbinder would use the warbinder’s tunneled lore class feature to determine what spirits the character can seal pacts with while a multiclass warbinder/occult sadist would use the occult sadist’s lore of pain class feature.
Decided to take a look at the non-occultist archetypes in the document. I haven't looked at the spirits (beyond those on the SRD) yet, so I'm not sure how good the new ones are. Obviously that affects the power of things like tunnelled lore. There seems to be roughly one spirit of each constellation at each level, but I'm not sure whether different constellations specialise in different things. In my evaluations, I'm going to assume that if you can only bind from one constellation (of your choice) you can get to bind your favourite spirit (of 6th level or lower, of course) when you reach that level and still bind a decent one for what you want from, say, getting level 2 spirits on, with much more flexibility if you have access to the unbarred secret. Of course, this flexibility will also increase in the future if more spirits get released.
One other general concern I have about the archetypes is that they tend to be very good for dipping. A lot of the abilities they give up only become significant later on, while they're able to bind a spirit and get all the benefits immediately, and due to how binding works they continue improving their binding abilities while taking levels in other classes.
Alchemist Archetypes:
Occult Chemist:
Seems to give up a lot for what it gains. I haven't played an alchemist personally, but I understand that their three major class features are extracts, mutagens and bombs (in that order). The occult chemist gives up his bombs completely, and an extract-per-level, which is comparable to the full caster archetypes in loss (spell-per-level plus some more minor class features; the casters lose more from the spell-per-level but the extra features they lose seem to be less significant). However, the binding is worse than most archetypes'. Worse, the tunnelled addiction class feature is worse than tunnelled lore – even if unbarred worked with it (which it doesn't, technically – different class features) you take a crippling penalty if you decide to bind a spirit outside your constellation, or indeed if for whatever reason you don't have a spirit bound (you're attacked while performing the ritual, your equipment for the rituals is stolen, someone uses an ability to banish your spirit, …) Also, charisma is an ability the alchemist otherwise doesn't use, making the character more MAD. Wouldn't take.
Solar Orchid Sage – I haven't read the new spells and feats section, so can't really comment on this. That said, after you spend your first discovery on regaining your mutagen, it's basically two discoveries for the transmutation spells and the ability to choose some cosmetic aspects of people you transmute in certain ways.
Arcanist:
Typos: Binder Secret: “She must beet the binder secret's prerequisites”: beet>meet
Occult Exploiter description: “Tap into a neigh unlimited” neigh>nigh, unless you mean they're summoning the spirits of horses
Occult Exploiter Archetype: The loss of arcane points seems fairly minor: by the time the difference matters, you can drop a low level spell slot without much concern and regain the lost points. Missing out on your first level exploit is painful, mostly because it clashes with so many other archetypes. For some reason, the arcanist doesn't get to take the unbarred secret, so they're never going to get a great selection of spirits – a bit odd for a class whose mechanics are focussed around flexibility in the spells you can choose from. Diminished spellcasting is a huge deal breaker, as it delays access to your highest level spells for a level (putting you a whole spell level behind the wizard). Charisma based, but arcanist also benefits from a decent cha so that's ok. Overall, I think I'll give this a miss as written with the arcanist character I'm currently playing.
Barbarian:
Typos: The totemic sage loses his 4th level rage power for bind spirits, but also has it replaced in totemic lore.
Totemic Sage Archetype: Charisma dependency and tunnelled lore are two black marks against this archetype. However, the archetype doesn't cost much – fast movement and small amounts of DR are nice extras, but not the main focus of the class, and losing a rage power and having three more be predetermined isn't terrible. Overall, I think it's a good archetype – I think I'd nearly always take it unless there was something else I wanted, but then again improving the martial classes isn't exactly a bad thing. Depends somewhat on how the above error is resolved.
That said, it's also very OP for dipping – the only thing you lose out on in a 1 level dip is fast movement! Perhaps delaying rage until 4th level instead of losing the 4th level rage power would be good, although you'd have to rework the 2nd level rage power. Since dips are presumably mostly for the barbarian's rage, this would negate the issue.
Bard:
Soul Muse Archetype: Charisma dependency is good for this class, and tunnelled lore can be worked around with unbarred. Diminished spellcasting is probably less bad than it is for full casters, for obvious reasons. On the other hand, you lose both a spell known and spell per day. Missing out on bardic knowledge isn't major, although it's a bit of an odd thing for a pact binder to lose thematically. Giving up versatile performances for binder secrets is a very good trade in my opinion, especially as you don't always have to do it. Soul musing, as well as having a confusingly similar name to the archetype itself, is probably also a reasonable deal (although failing binding checks can also be fun). Overall, I think this archetype is about right – I'd consider taking it, but it wouldn't be a clear decision.
This is another problem class for dipping, as it only loses a first level spell per day and known for all the benefits of binding, as well as bardic performance, etc.
Bloodrager:
Typos: Ravaged bloodline, should be “bloodline powerS”
Bind Spirits section of bloodsworn binder has the standard reference to tunnelled lore, but the archetype doesn't get tunnelled lore.
Bloodsworn Binder Archetype: Wow, give up all spellcasting? Ouch, but I guess that you get spell like abilities which are higher than the spells you give up. Also, no tunnelled lore! Bloodsworn bloodrager gains points for style, and isn't really a mechanical effect. It also doesn't cause the archetype to clash with any existing archetypes, so hooray. Binder secrets replacing bloodline spells on a one to one basis is also a good trade, which helps mitigate the loss of spells. Overall, I think this archetype again hits about the right balance, although I'm not an expert on the bloodrager without the archetype.
I'll continue looking through the archetypes tomorrow, as tomorrow turned into today about a quarter of an hour ago where I live.
For the Fringe Binder, I'd be happy with minimum Sneak Attack damage. It'd allow things to trigger off the damage and the penalty wouldn't be as severe.
Pactsworn Hunter
- Diminished Spellcasting, Tunneled Companion, Precise Companion, and Vestigial Tactics refers to "vestigial hunter."
Occult Shaman
- Bind Spirits and Tunneled Lore refer to "spirit soothsayer."
Swashbuckler
- Bind Spirits refers to "occult avenger."
Weird Witch
- Bind Spirits says "The DC to resist a weird witch's supernatural powers is equal to 10 + 1/2 the weird witch's binder level + the weird witch's sorcerer's Charisma modifier."
Wizard
- Bind Spirits refers to "weird witch."
Barred Spirits or Constellations: Some class features, such as the tunneled lore class feature, can end up restricting which spirits that the occultist can seal pacts with. If a multiclass binder possesses levels in multiple classes that bar spirits by constellation, she must take the worse restriction. For example, the occultist base class is less restrictive than the warbinder fighter archetype because the occultist bars no constellations while the warbinder bars all constellations save for one of the warbinder’s choice. Furthermore, the warbinder is less restrictive than the occult sadist inquisitor archetype, as the latter bars all constellations save for one, specific constellation (the fiend constellation). So, for instance, a multiclass occultist/warbinder would use the warbinder’s tunneled lore class feature to determine what spirits the character can seal pacts with while a multiclass warbinder/occult sadist would use the occult sadist’s lore of pain class feature.
Yes, I think that would avoid any confusion for new players who decide to take part in the awesomeness that is binding.
For Aladdar, the Vestigial Bond has an error:
You gain a pegasus as an animal companion, functioning as a
horse with a 60-foot fly speed (good). You possess a druid
level equal to your binder level when determining your camel’s
abilities.
You say you get a pegasus functioning as a horse and then call it a camel.
Overall I'm really loving the new spirits, one of my few complaints is that you swapped from binder level + cha modifier to 3 + cha modifier for uses per day.
Edit:
Kaylos appears to be using Dama's Signs and Influence:
Kaylos affects you in the following ways:
Physical Sign: Your body appears perfectly molded and
chiseled like a marble statue. When you activate one of Dama’s
granted abilities, your body takes on the ruddy texture of clay.
Personality: You are stubborn and single minded. You
refuse to compromise with others.
Favored Ally: Humanoid (humans)
Favored Enemy: Humanoid (any except humans)
Pact Augmentations: For Accuracy, the description mentions taking it at 1st / 4th / 10th / 16th level, which doesn't match the progression of Pact Augmentations nor the restriction that it can only start being taken at 6th level. In general I also don't think the level restrictions are necessary seeing as how the more powerful ones (Fortification, Invulnerability, Resilience, Accuracy) need to be taken multiple times in order to be effective. And to double-check, these are permanent choices as opposed to being made at the time of binding? If permanent, it takes away some from the Occultist's "prepare differently for each day" mentality.For now, they're permanent. The "switch'em around" aspect is cool, but I felt that there needed to be some more grounded concepts in the class. One of the reasons you've never seen me try to make up an occultist stat block is that its already SO versatile compared to virtually other classes. Pact augmentations felt like a good place to just nail down some choices.
Personally... I kinda liked the versatility of choice that was allowed before, but I'm fine with this if you guys feel that it would balance the class more. Though I feel its pretty much "Nailed-Down" so to speak per day...
Anyway, Resilience has a similar problem: It says that it can be taken 5 times when in fact it can only be taken 4 (at 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th Lvl).
I apologize as I'm only glancing over everything (trying to get as much absorbed as possible), I'll make another pass to proofread.
General Comments:
- Having abilities working on a creature once / 24 hours instead of X times per day is nice for many of them. It makes them more useful and less "This ability does nothing anymore for me."
Coralene, Sovereign of Silver
- Unexpected Slip: "...does not count against the total amount of moment that you..."
Dantalios
- Speed of Dantalios: This ability seems a little overshadowed by Great Charge, one of his minors. If his major also provided some other bonus (dodge bonus, concealment during the movement) I could see wanting to use it more often.
Forash, Prince of Spirits
- Looking at "Summon Fiend," it mentions that it acts as Summon Nature's Ally. I don't see this mention either a duration of the effect nor its predecessor's restriction that it becomes expended once the summons end. Is the duration equal to what the spell would be (binder level rounds)? If so, this is a great buff to this ability and one that would make keeping Forash bound an asset.
- Physical Sign: "Your transforms into a wild, feline mane..."
- Personality Influence: MUCH less painful. And more fun at the same time.
- Vesigial Bond: It says you gain a big cat (lion) but mentions using your binder level as your druid level to determine your "tiger's" abilities.
General Hessant, Patron of Lost Soldiers
- His major has changed so much! But I guess I can agree that the old version was too powerful.
- Vesigial Bond: It says you gain a horse mount that functions as a cavalier's mount but then it also says you have a druid level equal to your binder level to determine its abilities. Could it be "as a cavalier's mount, but it also has Share Abilities?" It also mentions "call longsword" instead of "empower longsword."
Gwenolyn's Ghost, The Haunting Lover
- Ghost Hand: Can the hand also move through solid objects while carrying something?
- Vestigial Companion: Mentions "auroch."
Marat, Guardian of Shields
- Marat's Body: I hate to mention this, because it's a trick my occultist uses--but to clarify, if you are in any form, can you summon the armor? As written, I've been in Tiger form (due to Fey Barradu) and if I then use Marat's Body it summons plate mail (barding) for my tiger form, correct?
- Marat's Shield: "Shield" should be italicized. I think the old description might be better here, unless you mean it's just as if you're holding a normal shield (+2 AC).
- Personality Influence: I like the change here--it makes it matter more in-game.
Milo Cylde, Detective of Despair
- Overall I really like the changes to Milo. He's much more useful now and more a detective than before.
- Major Granted Abilities: The text is right up against "...grants the following abilities to binders."
- Milo's Truthtelling: "...it cannot speak and deliberate and intentionial lies for..."
Verbose, She with Endless Names
- Vestigial Companion: Mentions "auroch."
Vishgurv, Aberrant of Time Eternal
- Pact of Servitude: Ouch. I don't know if I'd want to be bound to him for a year and a day. However, with Permanent Pact, this hurts a lot less and you can never die (although you keep coming back as a Youth gillman, but hey, eternal life is eternal life).
- Thrall Shape: Mentions "binding ability score." With the changes every binding ability score is Charisma, correct?
Anyway, Resilience has a similar problem: It says that it can be taken 5 times when in fact it can only be taken 4 (at 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th Lvl).
I think that's there because of the Extra Pact Augmentation feat.
Taking a bit of break for now. I'll start looking at the 2nd level Spirits when I start up again.
Read through a decent amount of them, and decided to throw together a list of Favorites, Meh and Wouldn't Personally Use. More for myself perhaps for when I re-build out my character for an actual in game playtest (Which should be somewhat soon, next week perhaps), but if you have questions on why some are where they are, I'll try to answer the best I can.
Likes / Favorites
1st lv.
Ahaelous
Coralene
Eos Dei
Forash
Marat
Milo of Clyde [Despite no intention of using Truth telling]
Verbose
2nd lv.
Al’kra
Hollow Eyes
Ohbai
Imitreyes
Lady Jarah
Foxglove
Sylvus
Oszen
Saelendrios
Taios
3rd lv.
Ghato’Kacha
Iona Ophid
Kaiya
Muse Istago (Barely makes Likes. Noticably worse than before, understandably so perhaps, but possibly a bit too far.)
N’Alyia
Obba, Ella, Atasha
Vandrae
Xasa
4th lv.
Anajira
Ethaniel
Fey Baraddu
Hexus
Jehotek
Kandisha
Loh’Moi
Nightfang (But admittedly wouldn’t use much due to physical sign thing)
5th lv.
Arthu
Beautiful Balr (Close to meh)
Circe’s Runes
Dark Blood
Green Glomairah
Loathix
Mishpo
Noble Marius
Omlan Atlan
Rattenkonig
Teu and Lae
Vodavox
Meh / would choose if favorite’s were already taken
1st lv.
Aza’Zati
Cave Mother
Dantalios [Close to being in the Likes section]
General Hessant [Noticeably worse than before]
Gwenolyn’s Ghost [Close to being in the Likes section]
Sevnoir
Vishgurv [Pact of Servitude seems like a negative, but is admittedly flavorful]
2nd lv.
Moy [Close to beingin the Likes Section]
Shelassik
Tyrant Cromwell [Noticeably worse than before. Was a favorite. Moves to Likes at 10th lv.]
Ubro
3rd lv.
Crystal Lady
Forty-Two (Love where it came from though ☺)
Tommy Greensprout (Very flavorful, extremely close to likes.)
Xalen
4th lv.
Catha (Close to likes)
Gulguthriana
Prime Ravager
Swan Elashni
Vaukner
5th lv.
Pavatu
Tentacles of Dagon
wouldn’t personally use / uninterested currently
1st lv.
NA
2nd lv.
Cornelius
3rd lv.
Nivea Nieces (Close to meh)
4th lv.
Son of Dobb
5th lv.
NA
Have to say, lv. 5 spirits were all really solid IMO. I'll be looking over 6-9 and might make a list there too, but honestly, the game I'm going to be playing in starts at lv. 6 and I've yet to ever play past lv. 7 in a game. So I don't expect a chance to playtest much past 5th level spirits. In that campaign at least.
- Occultist: Can an occultist still choose an occult feat in place of a binder secret?
No. Binder secrets were made stronger to compensate for this.
- Craft Crystallized Pain: One of the prereqs is "Maximum Spirit Level 4th." Does this mean "at least" 4th or "if you can bind higher-level spirits you can't take this feat?" I think it's just rewording if it's the former--"Able to bind 4th-level spirits" would then be equivalent to "Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells."
Should be "able to bind 4th-level spirits."
- Demon Eye / Demon Eye Exemplar: I like these feats, but could the once/day limitation instead just be in minutes per day equal to your character level? And for aspects that are 3 + X times / Day it's equal to 1 + the total number of Demon Eye / Demon Eye Exemplar feats you've taken? This would allow the passive aspects to be more useful in 1-minute increments while limiting the per day aspects.
The feats are designed that way to encourage taking the feat multiple times.
- Flexible Pactbinding: This feat is now more flexible--you can't get +10 to your checks, making it harder to reach the capstone, but that also forces you to not bind a spirit for more than 24 hours unless you really need to. The penalty being maximized to -5 for reducing the duration also makes that more useful since you can still hit a good pact with a -5.
Yup. Before it was a no-brain feat. Now you might actually stop and think about whether or not you actually want it.
- Permanent Pact: WOW. This feat is GREAT. While it has a two feat tax, getting a permanent spirit opens to door to whole new combinations of classes/abilities. This allows even the Tunneled Lore archetypes to get a second spirit! One question--it states you cannot get the Capstone Empowerment unless you perform the binding ritual during the day--does this mean if you have a magic item or spell that grants you the capstone that you also don't get it in these cases? Also, since Spirit Focus allows you to change the spirit each level, can you change it from the one you get with Permanent Pact?
1) The feat is missing an important piece of text: a Permanent Pact counts against the total number of spirits that you can bind. Its not "one feat for a free spirit."
2) Magic Items / Spells that temporarily give you a capstone empowerment will give it to you. The feat is basically saying that the capstone empowerment isn't permanent as well. I'm going to rewrite the feat to reflect this.
3) No, you don't get to free-switch the Permanent Pact feat when you level up. If you trade Spirit Focus using its ability and no longer meet Permanent Pact's prerequisites, Permanent Pact effectively "turns off;" it gives you no benefit until you meet the feat's prerequisites again, after which it "turns back on," just like any other feat that you retrain out of and longer meet the prerequisites of.
Pactsworn Hunter
- Diminished Spellcasting, Tunneled Companion, Precise Companion, and Vestigial Tactics refers to "vestigial hunter."Occult Shaman
- Bind Spirits and Tunneled Lore refer to "spirit soothsayer."Swashbuckler
- Bind Spirits refers to "occult avenger."Weird Witch
- Bind Spirits says "The DC to resist a weird witch's supernatural powers is equal to 10 + 1/2 the weird witch's binder level + the weird witch's sorcerer's Charisma modifier."Wizard
- Bind Spirits refers to "weird witch."
All fixed.
Is Incite Animosity a free action? If so, think I found some secrets I can use. Also, is there a limit to the amount of people / creatures one can designate not to wake you for Guardian Spirit?
For Aladdar, the Vestigial Bond has an error:
You gain a pegasus as an animal companion, functioning as a
horse with a 60-foot fly speed (good). You possess a druid
level equal to your binder level when determining your camel’s
abilities.You say you get a pegasus functioning as a horse and then call it a camel.
Fixed.
Overall I'm really loving the new spirits, one of my few complaints is that you swapped from binder level + cha modifier to 3 + cha modifier for uses per day.
At low levels, 3 + Cha is better. At high levels, binder level + Cha is better. High level binders stopped having to manage their minor granted abilities as a resource and low-level binders worried that they would "run out of juice" too quickly compared to, say, a wizard with 1st-level spell slots AND a school power. Ultimately, I chose to nerf high-level play and buff low-level play.
Besides, which tier do YOU play more? ;-)
Kaylos appears to be using Dama's Signs and Influence:
Kaylos affects you in the following ways:
Physical Sign: Your body appears perfectly molded and
chiseled like a marble statue. When you activate one of Dama’s
granted abilities, your body takes on the ruddy texture of clay.
Personality: You are stubborn and single minded. You
refuse to compromise with others.
Favored Ally: Humanoid (humans)
Favored Enemy: Humanoid (any except humans)
Fixed.
Is Incite Animosity a free action? If so, think I found some secrets I can use. Also, is there a limit to the amount of people / creatures one can designate not to wake you for Guardian Spirit?
Its supposed to be a move action and limited to a single target at a time.
Anyway, Resilience has a similar problem: It says that it can be taken 5 times when in fact it can only be taken 4 (at 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th Lvl).I think that's there because of the Extra Pact Augmentation feat.
Yessir.
- Having abilities working on a creature once / 24 hours instead of X times per day is nice for many of them. It makes them more useful and less "This ability does nothing anymore for me."
It also helps vary up the types of granted abilities that you can gain.
Coralene, Sovereign of Silver
- Unexpected Slip: "...does not count against the total amount of moment that you..."
Fixed.
Dantalios
- Speed of Dantalios: This ability seems a little overshadowed by Great Charge, one of his minors. If his major also provided some other bonus (dodge bonus, concealment during the movement) I could see wanting to use it more often.
Charging is a full-round or standard action. Speed of Dantalios is a swift action.
They stack.
Forash, Prince of Spirits
- Looking at "Summon Fiend," it mentions that it acts as Summon Nature's Ally. I don't see this mention either a duration of the effect nor its predecessor's restriction that it becomes expended once the summons end. Is the duration equal to what the spell would be (binder level rounds)? If so, this is a great buff to this ability and one that would make keeping Forash bound an asset.
- Physical Sign: "Your transforms into a wild, feline mane..."
- Personality Influence: MUCH less painful. And more fun at the same time.
- Vesigial Bond: It says you gain a big cat (lion) but mentions using your binder level as your druid level to determine your "tiger's" abilities.
— Summoned Fiend. This one's more subtle. If you read Chapter 3, under granted abilities, you'll notice that I added this little gem: "and all granted abilities that function as a spell (including spell-like abilities) are cast using the binder’s level as his caster level." Yes, summon fiend now uses the spell's duration. And yes, the omission of the "expended once the summons ends," is a mistake. It has been readded to the granted ability. Good catch.
— Fixed the physical sign.— Vestigial Companion fixed.
General Hessant, Patron of Lost Soldiers
- His major has changed so much! But I guess I can agree that the old version was too powerful.
- Vesigial Bond: It says you gain a horse mount that functions as a cavalier's mount but then it also says you have a druid level equal to your binder level to determine its abilities. Could it be "as a cavalier's mount, but it also has Share Abilities?" It also mentions "call longsword" instead of "empower longsword."
— If you read the cavalier's mount ability, it actually states that the cavalier has an effective druid level for determining his mount's abilities. That's Paizo's wordage, not mine. The reference to the old ability has been fixed.
1) The feat is missing an important piece of text: a Permanent Pact counts against the total number of spirits that you can bind. Its not "one feat for a free spirit."
Fudge--I'd have to say that the advantages really don't outweigh the feat tax or disadvantages of being locked into one spirit that you have to continually bind to try to get the capstone / companion. While it's a good pact (which is nice), I don't think I'd spend the feats for the "could be useful" Flexible Pactbinding nor for Spirit Focus. It takes 3 Feats in total to get the ability, and I don't think that's worth it for the permanent pact. You can already rush your binding check / circle creation (or negate the circle creation with Scribe Binding Tattoo) or even use Flexible Pact Binding to bind a spirit for a week at a time for a "semi-permanent" basis. Exorcise attempts even suppress the ability for 24 hours which is worse than having the spirit exorcised since you can then just bind another one (even if at a penalty). Add to it that you can't enhance your binder level via Commanding Facade nor other feats that modify the pact and it also drops in value. If I'm going to be rolling my binding check anyway I'd rather be able to modify it and choose who I want each day.
I'll have to do some more thinking on this one.
Charging is a full-round or standard action. Speed of Dantalios is a swift action.They stack.
I missed that and retract my previous statement.
— If you read the cavalier's mount ability, it actually states that the cavalier has an effective druid level for determining his mount's abilities. That's Paizo's wordage, not mine. The reference to the old ability has been fixed.
My apologies--looks like I need to brush up on my class features. :)
Is Incite Animosity a free action? If so, think I found some secrets I can use. Also, is there a limit to the amount of people / creatures one can designate not to wake you for Guardian Spirit?
Its supposed to be a move action and limited to a single target at a time.
I see. Well, I guess if used with Hateful Major Ability it could be useful at times, even if that means often not being able to do anything else for the the round, at least I'd be able to bypass DR, SR and Immunities.
The campaign I'm making this character for is making finding practical secrets a bit difficult. Lv. 6, occult magic being rare (like, I'm the only one doing it in my party) and the setting is modern. I think I figured out some options I might like though.
Typo:
Hollow Eyes: Steal Skin:"... this ability as a material companion in order to transform..."
Question regarding the Accuracy Pact Augmentation. It's listed under the augmentations that can only be accessed after 6th level, but under it, it says you can pick it once at 1st, 4th, 10th and 16th. How does that work?
Gwenolyn's Ghost, The Haunting Lover
- Ghost Hand: Can the hand also move through solid objects while carrying something?
- Vestigial Companion: Mentions "auroch."
— No. Added this line for clarification, "but any corporeal objects that the ghost hand interacts with while passing through a solid object remain corporeal."
— Fixed.Marat, Guardian of Shields
- Marat's Body: I hate to mention this, because it's a trick my occultist uses--but to clarify, if you are in any form, can you summon the armor? As written, I've been in Tiger form (due to Fey Barradu) and if I then use Marat's Body it summons plate mail (barding) for my tiger form, correct?
- Marat's Shield: "Shield" should be italicized. I think the old description might be better here, unless you mean it's just as if you're holding a normal shield (+2 AC).
- Personality Influence: I like the change here--it makes it matter more in-game.
— That's a tricky question, because the rules don't say that you can't wear armor after polymorphing, but anyone could tell you that polymorph + armor is bound to cause problems at the table. Honestly, I would say no. The ability summons a piece of gear for you, and that gear melds into your body like any other when you use a polymorph effect. However, because the imagery is REALLY cool, I'm willing to add the following line into the granted ability for you: "This armor adjusts to match your size, and if your form changes due to a polymorph effect, it adjusts to suit your new form instead of melding into your new form and ceasing to function, but its armor bonus is reduced by half."
— Fixed.Milo Cylde, Detective of Despair
- Overall I really like the changes to Milo. He's much more useful now and more a detective than before.
- Major Granted Abilities: The text is right up against "...grants the following abilities to binders."
- Milo's Truthtelling: "...it cannot speak and deliberate and intentional lies for..."
— Fixed.
— Fixed.Verbose, She with Endless Names
- Vestigial Companion: Mentions "auroch."
— Fixed.
Vishgurv, Aberrant of Time Eternal
- Pact of Servitude: Ouch. I don't know if I'd want to be bound to him for a year and a day. However, with Permanent Pact, this hurts a lot less and you can never die (although you keep coming back as a Youth gillman, but hey, eternal life is eternal life).
- Thrall Shape: Mentions "binding ability score." With the changes every binding ability score is Charisma, correct?
— Yup. But the best part is that if someone REALLY wants to kill you, they can. They just kidnap you, bring you to a nice shallow pond or something, kill you, wait you to reincarnate, kill you again, and keep killing you until you accrue so many negative levels / Constitution penalties from reincarnate that you stay dead. Its quite a horrible way to go, being murdered as an 8-year old over and over again, possibly over the course of several weeks.
— Fixed!
Question regarding the Accuracy Pact Augmentation. It's listed under the augmentations that can only be accessed after 6th level, but under it, it says you can pick it once at 1st, 4th, 10th and 16th. How does that work?
...Ya. It was brought up earlier, but he didn't answer that specifically...
Let me restate again that I am loving having my hands on the playtest document--what I've seen so far is more than what I was hoping for with a revision. Any criticisms I make are from an enthusiast's point-of-view, and I want everyone else to know that if they didn't back the project that they should buy it when it becomes available! :)
-----
I figured I'd go back over the archetypes to give feedback--I only spoke about the ones that jumped out at me before. I'm trying to format for more readability--let me know if it helps or hinders.
Overall all the archetypes that are in the old books have been updated with the new Tunneled Lore (choose one constellation, you can only bind spirits of that constellation) and they look like they'll be more fun to play. The binder secret "Unbarred" lets you unbar a constellation.
Classes that you would think have a dichotomy regarding pact magic do--for every cleric/inquisitor/cavalier/etc. that loves it there's one that hates it. It helps flesh out the occult world more.
Q:Should all archetypes have access to binder secrets? I know most of them do, but there are some that don't and I wanted to understand the reasoning why.
Alchemist
Occult Chemist
This is a nice archetype and I can see playing it, even though Tunneled Addiction can hurt, but no more than the downside of a mutagen. You can choose to be less Alchemist and more Occultist thanks to being able to select binder secrets instead of discoveries.
Q:With Tunneled Addiction and Unbarred, the Occult Chemist would get the penalty applied to the unbarred constellation as well?
Solar Orchid Sage
Another nice archetype--exchange your Mutagen for all Sorcerer/Wizard transmutation spells (including the new age spells) that get Tailored at 4th level which lets you choose the adjusted form's exact height, weight, and age. It also stacks with Occult Chemist.
Arcanist
Occult Exploiter
As pi4t stated above, giving up your 1st level exploit hurts since it bars you from taking other archetypes, but this is still a nice archetype. There is a new Binder Secret exploit that can give you a few binder secrets.
Barbarian
Lots of new rage powers for people to play with that are all quite nice.
Totemic Sage
Another updated archetype that looks fun to play.
Bard
Lots of new masterpieces that give more "oomph" for bards overall. For those that can bind spirits a masterpiece can also complete the Knowledge Task (Legend) for the spirit aligned with the masterpiece.
Soul Muse
One of the best non-occultist binders due to Soul Musing, which allows you to use one type of Perform in place of binder level checks for the Tunneled Lore constellation chosen. Being able to select binder secrets instead of versatile performances is also great.
Bloodrager
Two new bloodlines to play with that have good abilities.
Bloodsworn Binder
As pi4t pointed out, you lose out on spellcasting, but unlike most other non-Occultist binders you also don't have Tunneled Lore restricting your spirit selections. You also get binder secrets.
Brawler
Occult Bruiser
No martial training, but spirit binding that does not have Tunneled Lore. Occult Flexibility lets you get any minor ability you want (of a spirit completed the Knowledge Tasks for) and can be very nice since this includes becoming invisible, having Awesome Blow, elemental damage, etc. Your unarmed damage is capped, but you also have spirits and binder secrets so it's a decent tradeoff.
X:Occult Flexibility does not mention which feature it replaces.
Cavalier
We have the same orders and archetype, but they've been refined and seem to work better. Order of the Occult Eye now grants the new and improved Amateur Occultist feat, which is great. The second order, the Order of Saelendrios is anti-pact magic (boo!) but is great against the occult.
Cleric
A new Pact Magic subdomain grants Amateur Occultist, and the other domains also grant some nice abilities, with one being dedicated to being against the occult. The Occult Priest has been updated and gives up channel energy for binding and domain spell slots for domain spontaneous casting. I'll have to try this one out and see how it feels.
Druid
Pactsworn Pagan
I have some outstanding questions regarding this one--as it stands the Druid gives up too much to be able to bind very limited spirits.
Q:With Tunneled Lore, just to clarify, if the Pactsworn Pagan gets Unbarred he can select any constellation?
— That's a tricky question, because the rules don't say that you can't wear armor after polymorphing, but anyone could tell you that polymorph + armor is bound to cause problems at the table. Honestly, I would say no. The ability summons a piece of gear for you, and that gear melds into your body like any other when you use a polymorph effect. However, because the imagery is REALLY cool, I'm willing to add the following line into the granted ability for you: "This armor adjusts to match your size, and if your form changes due to a polymorph effect, it adjusts to suit your new form instead of melding into your new form and ceasing to function, but its armor bonus is reduced by half."
I'll take half base armor bonus (+4) that persists through polymorph effects. And stating it explicitly avoids all the arguments back and forth as to whether or not it works (since you can turn your friend into a horse and then put horse barding on him--which he may or may not appreciate).
Also, for Marat's Body, what happens when you use it while wearing something like light armor? Are you allowed to even do it? Does Marat's Body sort of negate the light armor and you just use it until finished?
Also, for Marat's Body, what happens when you use it while wearing something like light armor? Are you allowed to even do it? Does Marat's Body sort of negate the light armor and you just use it until finished?
With my Occultist I treat this as how Dreamscarred's Aegis works. When the Aegis forms an Astral Suit/Astral Juggernaut, if the Aegis is already wearing armor only the benefits of the Astral Suit remain. So in this case my Chain Shirt +4 ceases to provide any benefits (including non-armor bonuses) and I only get the benefit of Marat's Body.
Just now noticed that you don't auto get any spirits past the initial one lv. 1 spirit. Seems a bit harsh since that's all Occultists do. Even more so since 4 weeks worth of downtime (probably more to pass the 30+ DC) per spirit can be an unlikely amount of downtime in a given campaign. Kingmaker might be good here, but else you might be a lv. 8 occultist with 2 spirits to your name.
That said, I did see Gnostic Tomes and Training. Is there a price for the Tomes making it so they can be bought in market places? Or are they only found whenever / where the DM deems fit to insert them?
EDIT: I suppose if a DM wanted, they could hand wave some of the 1st level spirits as if the character had done the research for them before the campaign started.
Also, for Marat's Body, what happens when you use it while wearing something like light armor? Are you allowed to even do it? Does Marat's Body sort of negate the light armor and you just use it until finished?
Right. Armor bonuses don't stack. Now, whether your GM will make you take encumbrance for both sets is an entirely different story. ;-)
Just now noticed that you don't auto get any spirits past the initial one lv. 1 spirit. Seems a bit harsh since that's all Occultists do. Even more so since 4 weeks worth of downtime (probably more to pass the 30+ DC) per spirit can be an unlikely amount of downtime in a given campaign. Kingmaker might be good here, but else you might be a lv. 8 occultist with 2 spirits to your name.
That said, I did see Gnostic Tomes and Training. Is there a price for the Tomes making it so they can be bought in market places? Or are they only found whenever / where the DM deems fit to insert them?
EDIT: I suppose if a DM wanted, they could hand wave some of the 1st level spirits as if the character had done the research for them before the campaign started.
Read the opening blurb of Chapter 4. It talks a little bit about other ways of gaining more spirits.
But yes, the assumption is that since ALL spirits scale based on your level, you have to work a bit for the new ones.
And yes, gnostic tomes are fully stated up and priced in the Magic Items chapter that you haven't gotten yet. Be warded: they're expensive.
Read the opening blurb of Chapter 4. It talks a little bit about other ways of gaining more spirits.
But yes, the assumption is that since ALL spirits scale based on your level, you have to work a bit for the new ones.
And yes, gnostic tomes are fully stated up and priced in the Magic Items chapter that you haven't gotten yet. Be warded: they're expensive.
Fair enough.
And continuing the archetypes feedback. . .
Fighter
Warbinder
The fighter archetype gets updated with a more thematic name and trades weapon training for occult ability training. No barred constellations, so the fighter gets some nice abilities added to the arsenal.
Gunslinger
Occult Avenger
I have some outstanding questions about this class. Currently I'm not quite sure the advantage to being an Occult Avenger and it makes me wary of this archetype.
Hunter
Pactsworn Hunter
You give up your animal companion and animal focus to be able to bind a spirit and gain the vestigial companion as your animal companion. I think it's worth it. Tunneled Companion only allows you to bind spirits that have a vestigial companion that functions as an animal companion, but there seem to be plenty of those to choose from.
Inquisitor
Exorcism Inquisition for those who don't like pact magic, as well as the Occult Abolisher archetype. I like spirits too much to play any of the anti-pact magic classes personally, although many of their abilities can be useful even in a non-pact magic world.
Occult Sadist
The most restrictive binding of any archetype--you're limited to the fiend constellation. There are lots of great fiend spirits so I wouldn't worry too much about it. No judgements, but you get Touch of Pain (similar to an Anti-Paladin's Touch of Corruption) as well as Cruelties. Looks to be a strong archetype.
Q: Pain Harvester states that whenever a creature fails its Fortitude saving throw it suffers ability damage. Is this only against the Sadist's abilities? If not, what's the range on this feature?
Pact Protector
No spells, no tactics, no teamwork feats. However, you can bind spirits of any constellation AND you get pact augmentations like an Occultist. A worthy trade-off.
Investigator
Occult Investigator
No alchemy, but you can bind spirits of any constellation and eventually get your inspiration die on binding checks for free. Can compete with Soul Muse for best non-Occultist binder for this feature alone.
Magus
Sibyl
The Sibyl returns, still with no spellcasting ability, but able to use occult abilities as it would spells normally. No limit in constellations, ability to refresh abilities, can select binder secrets. . . a strong class and I can see pure Occultists dipping into Sibyl for its features.
Monk
Empyrean Friar
Less restrictive than the previous version, although barred to one constellation. No stunning fist or AC bonus, fast movement or wholeness of body, no diamond soul, and binder secrets replace monk bonus feats. I'm not sure if this archetype gives up too much to be able to bind only one constellation.
Occultist
Overall the base Occultist is so much better than its old incarnation. Less dead levels, more binder secrets (which have also been buffed), better constellation aspects. . . praises all around for this revision!
Alchemical Meister
Instead of pact augmentations you get cognatogen or mutagen. Depending on your Occultist build this archetype can be a must-have.
Eldritch Jailer
You give up your 1st level binder secret and give up all of your constellations except one to gain an eidolon that acts as an animal companion. In addition you can't bind spirits that don't have a vestigial companion, and you lose the granted vestigial boon abilities. Eidolons are powerful, but I feel that the Tunneled Lore is too restrictive here for a full Occultist--it should be either one constellation or only spirits that have a vestigial companion, similar to the Pactsworn Hunter.
Mad Cultist
Tunneled Lore limited to one constellation and no pact augmentations. However, you gain rage and can select rage powers instead of binder secrets. The rage prevents you from attacking your spirits' favored allies and you're more inclined to attack their enemies. Combines well with the new rage powers, but it seems the Tunneled Lore is too restrictive for a true Occultist. Maybe a selection of 3 would feel better to me. Even so, this can be a great class for Occultists who like to get in the enemies' faces.
Occult Scholar
Ouch. No more revelations. No more Sidestep Secret. That being said, the Occult Scholar is so much more the scholar than before. Pact augmentations are replaced with inherent bonuses to Int, capping at +6. And your binding checks are enhanced by Int in addition to Cha. You can bind to your heart's content with this archetype. You lose spirit mastery but gain some other nice knowledge-type abilities. I feel that the Automatic Writing feature (similar to the revelation) should also be able to grant commune at the higher levels. Still, a very nice archetype and combines well with Int-based classes.
Seal-Etched Occultist
I have outstanding questions regarding this archetype. As is I would not suggest it.
Thaumaturge
Give up pact augmentations and your first level binder secret to gain arcanist exploits from a set list, as well as a reservoir of energy. Very nice archetype!
Unbound Occultist
I have some outstanding questions regarding this archetype, but it's even better than its predecessor. Less abilities to choose from, but you won't get stuck with something useless. (And if you want the randomness back, there's a feat to let you get it.) Devour Granted Ability is replaced by Innate Occultism, which still functions the same, but instead of gaining Rapid Recovery if you're bound to the spirit you selected with this feature, you get +1 to your binder level for that ability. It replaces spirit mastery, which is also a nice tradeoff.
Oracle
The Spirit Realm mystery has gotten some updates and is still nice.
Occult Medium
The Occult Medium loses mystery spells and gains no benefits from her Oracle's Curse, and always suffers the physical sign and influence of her bound spirit. However, she also doesn't have Tunneled Lore, so it looks to be worth it.
Paladin
You still have the Oath Against Spirits and Shadow Templar (updated Templar of Spirits) for those who dislike Pact Magic. You do gain carte blanche when it comes to eradicating the occult, however.
Pactsworn Champion
A Paladin with no spellcasting and loses out on one use of smite evil, but gains non-tunneled lore binding. Yes.
Q: Does the Pactsworn Champion still have the alignment restriction of Paladins / the same Code of Conduct?
Ranger
Foe Reaper
No spellcasting, no combat style (you can instead get binder secrets and occult feats), and your favored enemy is that of your bound spirit. Your hunter bond is a bond with your allies who gain the benfit of Ability Share. Your binding, however, is unrestricted, and you can always bind a spirit that has a vestigial companion if you want an animal companion. This looks like it could be a fun archetype to play as well.
Rogue
Occult focused Rogue Talents which are always nice and can grant Monstrous Aspects, Constellation Aspects, Binder Secrets, and Occult Feats. Combing with the "Extra X" feats and you can have multiple minor abilities.
X: In Constellation Aspects it mentions "untouchable."
Fringe Binder
The old Untouchable, but much better. Less skill points and no sneak attack damage vs. non-favored enemies of the spirit you're bound to. There's an outstanding question to the community if minimum sneak attack damage (1s on all d6s) for non-favored enemies would be desired. My opinion is yes, as it wouldn't negate all Rogue Talents that depend on Sneak Attack. Let Alex and Dario know your opinion on this.
Shaman
Two new hexes, one that gives you Binder Secrets and one that lets you speak with the dead (of varying degrees). The speak with dead hex seems a bit light in the number of uses per day (it's based on questions per day, not uses of speak with dead per day). There's also a new Spirit Realm spirit, similar to the Mystery of the same name. It has some nice abilities and I could see taking it.
Occult Shaman
This archetype won't stack with anything, I believe. You give up your spirit abilities, wandering hex, some hexes, and wandering spirit to be able to bind spirits. You're barred to one constellation as well. However, you do get the ability to get the major ability of any spirit you've completed the Knowledge Tasks for as an immediate action for 1 round/level, and it acts as a poor pact. I can't decide if it's worth giving up the spirit abilities or not.
X: Under Tunneled Lore-"..a spirit soothsayer chooses the one constellation."
Skald
Soul Screamer
Give up bardic knowledge and a rage power to bind spirits of one constellation. Oh, and be able to grant Ability Share to your allies while performing an inspiring rage. All of them. Even though the granted ability can't require a standard action or longer, this is a very solid archetype.
Slayer
Pactsworn Assassin
No track, stalker, your first slayer's advance, nor three slayer talents and only apply Studied Target to one target. In exchange, you gain the ability to bind spirits of one constellation. You can choose the binder secret, constellation aspect, occult feat, and monstrous aspect talents, so that's a bonus. I think this is a fair exchange, but I haven't played enough Slayers to be able to say 100%.
Pactbane Slayer
Anti-pact magic Slayer. Great thematically even if I wouldn't play one. Worth what you give up. Strangely enough you can combine both the Pactsworn Assassin and Pactbane Slayer if you want to play a "do as I say, not as I do" Slayer.
Sorcerer
The Ergon and Ravaged bloodlines are back, but neither one grants the ability to bind spirits anymore. These are still two nice bloodlines.
X: Ergon Bloodline's Bloodline Arcana-"Whenever you cast a spell with a range of person..."
X: Ravaged Bloodline's Class Skills, the font/font size is incorrect.
Seal-Bound Sorcerer
No bloodline spells but you can bind spirits of a chosen constellation. You can now have a binding Sorcerer of any bloodline, so I think it's worth it.
Summoner
The Spirit-Touched and Absorb Occult Energy come back and are still nice to have.
Spirit Caller
You replace your eidolon with being able to bind any spirit that grants an animal companion, familiar, or mount as a vestigial companion. In addition, your vestigial companion gets to be treated as your eidolon for class abilities. I like this version much better than the previous version of Spirit Caller.
X: Bind Spirits refers to "Soul Screamer."
Q: Tunneled Summoning doesn't explicitly state that the Spirit Caller has to choose a vestigial companion when binding a spirit. Is this supposed to be optional?
Q: How does this archetype work with Aspect, Greater Aspect, and Twin Eidolon?
Q: Can a Spirit Caller bind Loh'moi, the Mad Geometer? As written, she cannot, since the vestigial companion granted is an eidolon, not one of the specifically listed types. Is this an oversight or purposeful?
Swashbuckler
Esoteric Dilettante
Give up some deeds and more limited panache gaining (only counts against your spirit's favored enemies), but gain the ability to bind a spirit of any constellation, and gain the Finesse ability as normal, but also with melee touch attacks. In addition to the normal Finesse, treat any melee touch attack, light or one-handed weapons granted by a spirit's abilities as a one-handed piercing weapon. This is a great archetype for a Swashbuckler.
Q: Would abilities like General Hessant's Empower Longsword count for Dilettante's Finesse?
Warpriest
A new Occult Blessing that can grant a Constellation Aspect powered by your blessing.
Occult Scourer
An anti-pact magic Warpriest that gains the exorcism inquisition and the Order of Saelendrios order (as a cavalier). You give up a few abilities, but for going against the occult it's a nice archetype.
Pactsworn Warpriest
No channel energy, delayed Sacred Weapon, and a very limited fervor ability, but you can bind spirits of any constellation.
X: Diminshed Spellcasting refers to "weird witch" and Int score for spellcasting.
Q: Occult Fervor only heals someone bound to a spirit or harms someone who threatens an ally bound to a spirit. This ability is great if you have others in the party who are bound with spirits, but otherwise is useless. Unless the Warpriest counts as an ally threatened (as written the Warpriest counts as a living creature bound to a spirit)?
Witch
A binder secret hex is very nice, and the new Death Curse hex seems interesting if your witch tends to fall in combat a lot. Occult Patrons make a return as well.
Q: With Death Curse, "If the witch is slain...her body transforms into a nonliving, inanimate object of the same size and becomes trapped..." Does the witch's body transform into a dead body or does it transform into a random (or selected) inanimate object like a chest or sword? I'm pretty sure it's just "dead body" but just wanted to get some clarity.
Q: There is no "Starless" patron. Should there be one?
Weird Witch
Updated name for the Spirit Drudge (I like Weird Witch better). A witch gives up her 1st level hex and major and grand hexes to be able to bind spirits of one constellation. Or should I say, for her familiar to bind spirits of one constellation. Be careful of the personality influences here if your binding check is low. I haven't played a Weird Witch yet, but the modified binding is very interesting lore-wise.
Wizard
We have a new Aging School, which has some nice abilities (threefold aspect and inflicting Str damage on a creature with a touch attack), and the Occult School modified the Universal School to grant Amateur Occultist.
Q: Just to clarify, Age Shift is the 1st level ability granted and not Aging Touch? With the other arcane schools it seems like the effects are listed backwards.
Q: Does Aging Touch stack? How many years is the creature aged? Can a creature be killed via aging (not Str damage) with this ability?
Soul Weaver
I mentioned this one in an earlier post. No arcane bond, no arcane school, and three opposition schools to be able to bind three constellations that don't oppose each other. Losing both arcane bond and arcane school seems a bit harsh.
That's it for the archetypes. I tried not to go into too much detail and I hope I kept them vague enough to not ruin any surprises.
Time to head back to the 2nd-level Spirits and beyond!
Does the Faith Trait "Favored" still exist? If so, should this allow an Occultist to start with a Level 2 spirit of the Favored Trait if a 2nd level spirit is chosen? Would it also allow a non-Occultist binder to bind a Level 7 Spirit?
Is there any way to get in on this for those of us that missed the Kickstarter?
Can you take a 20 on Knowledge Tasks if you have access to a library or a similar source of information (old songs, poems, etc.)?
General Hessant's ability Empower Longsword no longer grant's you proficiency with Longsword. Might want to look into that.
Also, Cornelius Button's Seedling Bomb doesn't list a duration for the Entangled condition, or any way to remove it. I really like (Most of) the change to the Seedling Bomb. I'm willing to take the lower damage in exchange for the entangle effect getting added on.
However, I'm not sure how I feel about the stinking cloud effect being tied to a random % chance yet, but my initial thought is "No Thanks". As someone who has used this spirit a lot in Skull and Shackles, that change may mean I rarely use it again. Dropping a Stinking cloud into a combat at the wrong time/location could be crippling... for you're own party.
I would much rather have two seedling bomb options, The Acid/Entangle bomb, and a stinking puss filled bomb.