[Radiance House] Pact Magic Unbound: Grimoire of Lost Souls Backer Playtest Feedback


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What happens if you take Permanent Pact on a spirit that exchanges its major ability for a vestigial boon / companion such as Alabaster and decide to go with said vestigial boon / companion upon making the permanent pact? Do you no longer need to re-pact with that spirit, since you no longer have the major ability? Or do you have to re-pact in order to keep using the vestigial boon / companion you've decided to go with?

Alexander Augunas wrote:
"While you are bound to Muse Istago, you can cast lesser simulacrumum as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. You must possess a set of masterwork artisan’s tools to use this ability."

Sounds fun.

Contributor

Orich wrote:
Questions about Anajira's physical sign.

I have some extra lines to burn up on that page. Does this make Anajira's motivations clearer to you, Orich?

"Physical Sign: Lecherous Anajira transforms you into a voluptuous, female, anthropomorphic panther in an attempt to demonstrate his dominance over you."


Third Mind wrote:
What happens if you take Permanent Pact on a spirit that exchanges its major ability for a vestigial boon / companion such as Alabaster and decide to go with said vestigial boon / companion upon making the permanent pact? Do you no longer need to re-pact with that spirit, since you no longer have the major ability? Or do you have to re-pact in order to keep using the vestigial boon / companion you've decided to go with?

Each day you can choose to go through the binding ritual to gain the benefit of the vestigial companion or attempt to gain the capstone ability.

Alexander Augunas wrote:
"While you are bound to Muse Istago, you can cast lesser simulacrumum as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. You must possess a set of masterwork artisan’s tools to use this ability."

I like it--it enhances Muse Istago's painting ability more and gives you more versatility with your companion, which makes him more unique in his abilities.


Alexander Augunas wrote:

I have some extra lines to burn up on that page. Does this make Anajira's motivations clearer to you, Orich?

"Physical Sign: Lecherous Anajira transforms you into a voluptuous, female, anthropomorphic panther in an attempt to demonstrate his dominance over you."

Definitely! That's some nice flavor text.

Contributor

"What happens if you take Permanent Pact on a spirit that exchanges its major ability for a vestigial boon / companion such as Alabaster and decide to go with said vestigial boon / companion upon making the permanent pact? Do you no longer need to re-pact with that spirit, since you no longer have the major ability? Or do you have to re-pact in order to keep using the vestigial boon / companion you've decided to go with?"

Good question. Does this clear things up, or is it confusing?

"Benefit: Select 1 spirit that you have selected with Spirit Focus when you gain this feat. You enter an unending pact with the selected spirit: your pact does not end after 24 hours and you cannot willingly expel or exorcise the spirit. A permanent pact is treated as a good pact and you do not gain the capstone of a spirit that you made a permanent pact with unless it is granted to you by a spell, magic item, or this feat (see below).

Once per day, you can perform the ceremony of a spirit that you have made a permanent pact with in order to attempt to gain the spirit’s capstone empowerment. This functions as as ritual made to summon any other spirit and requires that you draw the spirit’s seal and perform its ceremony. If your binding check exceeds the spirit’s binding DC by 10 or more (or 5 or more if you have the Capstone Binder feat), you gain the spirit’s capstone empowerment for 24 hours. If you fail this binding check, your pact with the spirit becomes a poor pact and you take the associated penalties for 24 hours. Additionally, you may choose to gain the spirit’s vestigial companion at the usual cost described by that spirit during this pact; if you succeed, you gain the spirit’s vestigial companion for 24 hours, after which the companion fades and the traded granted abilities resume granting you their benefits.

Permanent pacts cannot be modified or altered by feats (other than Spirit Focus) or class features unless specifically stated otherwise; for example, you cannot use Flexible Pactmaking feat with a permanent spirit. Once you have made a permanent pact with a spirit, the pact cannot be broken or undone, and even successful attempt to exorcise the spirit merely suppress its benefits and influences for 24 hours. Not even death (and subsequent resurrection) cannot free one’s soul from a permanent pact."


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Quote:
May I expand my questions here? How are we defining "one week of research"? Is it 5 days or 7 days? Is each day's worth of research equal to 8 hours? This would make a total of either 40 or 56 hours of research to equal one week (so if we're researching on the go, it'll take two weeks of work to get one chance at the knowledge check, or a month if we can only research while camping at the end of the day - aka 4 hours cut in half for 2 per day). And if it is only 5 days worth of work per week, that means I can shorten that "month" worth of research by 8 full days if I work through the weekends.

"The binder needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to research a Knowledge Aspect. Researching a spirit requires 8 hours per level of the spirit, with a minimum of at least 8 hours. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per level of the spirit by increasing the DC to research the spirit by 5.

The binder can spend up to 8 hours each day researching a Knowledge Aspect. She cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the binder can use the rest of the time as she sees fit. If the binder is out adventuring, she can devote 4 hours each day to researching a Knowledge Task, although she nets only 2 hours’ worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, preparation, and during watches at night. This research is typically done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a library or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring binder."

This is a good solution. To summarize:

1) the one week requirement is changed to "8 hours per level of the spirit"
2) an occultist must spend the 8 hours in relative solitude
3) if a quiet research place is not obtainable, then the amount of time spent nets only 1/2 time
4) if out adventuring, then a maximum of 4 hours (netting 2 hours) may be obtained
5) the days and hours spent researching are not consecutive, so they can be split up between adventures of need be.

Is this accurate?


Orich wrote:
Each day you can choose to go through the binding ritual to gain the benefit of the vestigial companion or capstone ability.

Oops. Missed it. Thanks. Well, at least it'd keep permanent 9th level spirits a pain in the backside to get full power.

I have to say though. If your DM allows you to craft whatever wondrous items you want and can afford. An easy choice for a binder would be the Cyclops Helm. Sure, you use the once a day power on a binding check, but possible capstone of a level 9 made a bit easier and consistent? I'll take it. Also can help tremendously in learning / gathering new spirits.

Alexander Augunas wrote:

"Benefit: Select 1 spirit that you have selected with Spirit Focus when you gain this feat. You enter an unending pact with the selected spirit: your pact does not end after 24 hours and you cannot willingly expel or exorcise the spirit. A permanent pact is treated as a good pact and you do not gain the capstone of a spirit that you made a permanent pact with unless it is granted to you by a spell, magic item, or this feat (see below).

Once per day, you can perform the ceremony of a spirit that you have made a permanent pact with in order to attempt to gain the spirit’s capstone empowerment. This functions as as ritual made to summon any other spirit and requires that you draw the spirit’s seal and perform its ceremony. If your binding check exceeds the spirit’s binding DC by 10 or more (or 5 or more if you have the Capstone Binder feat), you gain the spirit’s capstone empowerment for 24 hours. If you fail this binding check, your pact with the spirit becomes a poor pact and you take the associated penalties for 24 hours. Additionally, you may choose to gain the spirit’s vestigial companion at the usual cost described by that spirit during this pact; if you succeed, you gain the spirit’s vestigial companion for 24 hours, after which the companion fades and the traded granted abilities resume granting you their benefits.

Permanent pacts cannot be modified or altered by feats (other than Spirit Focus) or class features unless specifically stated otherwise; for example, you cannot use Flexible Pactmaking feat with a permanent spirit. Once you have made a permanent pact with a spirit, the pact cannot be broken or undone, and even successful attempt to exorcise the spirit merely suppress its benefits and influences for 24 hours. Not even death (and subsequent resurrection) cannot free one’s soul from a permanent pact."

Yeah. I must have overlooked it in the feat. I still may not use it till 9th level since none of the lower levels are clicking as "that's my spirit", but I do like the flavor of the feat overall. Question though. Since you're basically offering the spirit your life's worth of time for experiencing the world again, would they not want to help you make a pact permenant? Sort of like how Flexible Pactmaking gives a bonus towards DC for increasing the time? I mean, you are offering long time residency for them over others. I doubt it since this feat has potential for being strong depending on the spirit, but it seems like it'd make sense theme wise.

Contributor

Quote:
Q: Catha of Codex, Call by Name: This states you get a +2 bonus to your binder level--I'm assuming it means "for abilities used against this target," but the way it's worded is that you use the ability once and you just buffed your binder level until the end of the pact.

Upgrade complete:

"Call by Name: You petition Catha of Codex for the true name of one creature or object that you can see as a move action. Your binder level is considered 1 higher when determining the effects of granted abilities that target the creature and the DCs of all your granted abilities against that target increase by 1, including spell-like abilities. You can only maintain these bonuses against one opponent at a time; these bonuses remain in effect until either the target is dead or you study a new target. At 11th level and every four levels thereafter, these bonuses, as well as the increase to granted ability DCs, increase by 1. After using this ability, it becomes expended for 5 rounds.

Capstone Empowerment: Using call by name is a swift action."

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Q: Catha of Codes, Lore of Words: Does this allow you to also select secret languages?

No. Fixed.

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Q: Ethanial Midnight, Wrecking Pain: Do multiple uses of this ability stack? As written it does. Also, the capstone states "...target it...that do not require melee or ranged touch attacks.." Should this be "...target it with granted abilities that do not require an attack roll?" Otherwise it can be interpreted to allow ranged non-touch attacks.

— Wrecking Pain doesn't stack.

— Yup. Fixed.

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Q: Jehotek, Rebuke Heresy: Most abilities have been changed to be "Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this granted ability again for 1 day." Rebuke Heresy still states "A creature that succeeds on its saving throw cannot be the target of this ability again for 1 day."

Fixed.

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Q: Kandisha, Protection of Kandisha: I know this ability is supposed to protect against males only, but the wording can be misconstrued. Can it be reworded as something similar to "...except the benefits apply again males of the types humanoid, monstrous humanoid, and outsider, regardless of alignment."

I changed it to this:

"While you are bound to Kandisha, you gain a constant protection from evil effect, except the benefits only apply against male creatures of the following types are affected, regardless of alignment: humanoid, monstrous humanoid, outsider."

But in order to get it to fit, I had to drop the line about Kandisha's sand cloud penalizing Perception checks.

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Q: Prime Ravager, Duck for Cover: Should this be "Duck and Cover?"

Changing it to "Duck and Roll."

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Q: Prime Ravager, Nevermore: Does an undead count as the corpse of a slain creature?

Only if its a dead undead, as in someone died, was turned into a zombie, and then you killed the zombie. Here's a clarifying statement:

"Nevermore: You deal significant damage to the undead, functioning as disrupt undead except you add half your binder level to the damage dealt by this ability. Alternatively, you can touch a slain, corporeal creature’s body to reduce its body to fine ash, as though it had been slain by disintegrate."

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Q: Prime Ravager, Vestigial Bond: Can you eject Prime Ravager into a corpse more than once? If you destroy the salt growth does Prime Ravager rebind with your body or is he expelled as the Expel Spirits feat?

Clarified:

"A large salt growth over the host’s heart houses its soul instead of a gem; breaking this expels Prime Ravager and ends the pact as Expel Spirit."

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Q: Vaulkner, Vaulkner's Axe: I know this was brought up before with General Hessant, but when a spirit grants abilities with certain classes of weapons do you act as if you had proficiency with said weapons? If not, it reduces the usefulness of the abilities in question.

Nope.

That said, I'm trying this out for a new hero constellation aspect, which will replace heroic aid (+1 bonus on aid another checks, because while I think its great no one seemed very excited about it):

"Weapons of the Hero: While the occultist is bound to the hero spirit, she becomes proficient with all martial weapons and with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields (but not tower shields)."

Note: this may be too strong and I'll be evaluating it.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Quote:
Hello folks. I'm slowly making my way through the playtest document and I like what I see so far. However, I have one major concern. The current rules for "Researching the Spirit" are way too steep. DC 30 + the spirit's current level? Ouch. As it stands, a level 1 occultist would start play with one and would not likely be able to research another spirit successfully until he were level 4 or 5 (when he'd actually be able to make the check), especially if he were playing an AP. I don't believe that it is realistic to think that a character would have that much downtime (potentially 3-5 weeks per spirit) in order to expand his repetoire. Why not make them more like sorcerers or alchemists and allow them to learn 1-2 new spirits per level?

The Pactmaking rules assure that you'll eventually succeed; every time you fail a check, you get a stacking +5 bonus on your next check to succeed until you finally DO succeed.

That said, the DC was a touch on the high side, so in the next version the DC to complete a Knowledge Task will be 25 + spirit level instead of 30 + spirit level. However, it will take one 8-hour day per level of the spirit to conduct this research (to a maximum of nine 8-hour days for ninth-level spirits). In the next build, you will be able to increase the DC by 5 to accelerate the process to 4 hours of work per level of the spirit.

That way, you'll be able to speed up the process at higher levels when your Knowledge checks get higher. Also, the flavorful "you complete this task for story reasons" still exists, and you'll be able to buy/find gnostic tomes that will instantly teach you how to bind a spirit after just 24 hours of study, which CAN be done continuously.

Ok. That sounds a lot more reasonable. Thank you kindly.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
"Weapons of the Hero: While the occultist is bound to the hero spirit, she becomes proficient with all martial weapons and with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields (but not tower shields)."

I like this. If it turns out to be too much though, I'd be happy with it just keeping the all martial weapons and shields or medium armor. It would even be cool if there were a separate constellation aspect that could give exotic weapon proficiency. So if one wanted, they could spend all of their constellation aspects on proficiencies for weapons and (or) armors.

Contributor

Quote:
Yeah. I must have overlooked it in the feat. I still may not use it till 9th level since none of the lower levels are clicking as "that's my spirit", but I do like the flavor of the feat overall. Question though. Since you're basically offering the spirit your life's worth of time for experiencing the world again, would they not want to help you make a pact permenant? Sort of like how Flexible Pactmaking gives a bonus towards DC for increasing the time? I mean, you are offering long time residency for them over others. I doubt it since this feat has potential for being strong depending on the spirit, but it seems like it'd make sense theme wise.

You don't have to roll. You take the feat and BOOM. Permanent pact. The only time you have to roll if if you want the spirit's capstone empowerment or vestigial companion. Because spirits, like mortals, are lazy and don't want to be bothered with trivial things like "what powers do I get from you?"

Contributor

Tweak:

"Select armor or weapons. While the occultist is bound to the hero spirit, she gains proficiency with all martial weapons if she chooses weapons, or proficiency with medium armor if she chooses armor. If she is already proficient with all martial weapons, the occultist gains proficiency with an exotic weapon of her choice instead. If the occultist is proficient with medium armor, she gains proficiency with heavy armor instead."

That way its more in-line with the dragon ability that grants Dazzling Display.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
This isn't entirely correct. All of the archetypes that you've mentioned have the bind spirits class feature, which means they use their full binding level. A sibyl's spirit access is 2/3 that of an occultist, his binding itself is not.

That's what I was referring to. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I've gained from looking at the spirits and from the terms used (spirit levels 1-9, binder level being equal to your class level, practiced binder feat, etc), binder level is roughly equivalent to caster level, and spirit access is roughly equivalent to maximum spell level. If that is an appropriate comparison, then a (single classed) character with the bind spirits class feature binds with "caster level" equal to class level, and "maximum spell level" around 2/3 class level - ie about the same as a 2/3 spellcaster. However, while the 2/3 spellcaster gets about the same number of spells as a full caster of 2/3 his level, a 2/3 binding character gets the same number of spirits as an occultist of level 1-3!

Granted, low level spirits scale much better than low level spells, so perhaps the above comparison between spirit level and spell level isn't a reasonable one. Still, though, is it really necessary to restrict the sibyl and pact protector to the same levels of binding as the ranger and paladin archetypes, who only give up 4 levels of spellcasting for the same thing?

Alexander Augunas wrote:
...we want the occultist to be the absolute best at what it does, and not all archetypes are going to be a perfect trade.

Fair enough, that seems reasonable :) . The problem is that the sibyl currently loses nearly all the magus's key abilities for spirit binding related abilities - the only things that remain are the arcane pool, arcanas and bonus feats (assuming that the now-irrelevant armour proficiencies get changed into something more useful in a future update). Therefore, you'd expect a sibyl to gain pact binding which is nearly as good as an occultist's. Instead, they get pact binding which - at first glance, at least - doesn't seem significantly better than that of a ranger or paladin with pact binding.

That said, you do get all those abilities which synergise with pact binding, which the other classes don't. I guess the way to look at it is by comparing it with archetypes like the pactsworn champion - you give up all the paladin abilities, armour proficiencies (possibly) and hd/bab in exchange for the ability to use an ability every turn while attacking, and spiritstrike's benefits, as well as the standard arcanas, etc. I'm not convinced it's a great trade, but I guess it seems reasonable when viewed like that, especially as the minor abilities are at will. Ok, I've convinced myself that you're correct while trying to argue you're wrong :)

I am concerned, though, that the key abilities of the sibyl - other than binding - both appear in the first two levels, and there's nothing to stop a character with binding from another class from getting those abilities by just taking a couple of levels of sibyl. In particular, a sibyl 2/occultist x is very nearly as good at pact binding as a pure occultist, and yet gains all of the benefits of occult combat and spiritstrike.

The pact protector (inquisitor archetype) doesn't seem to get anything like as much as the sibyl, especially since he's also forced to choose a specific domain, and one whose eighth level power is dependent on the GM having significant numbers of enemy pact binders in the campaign. I've never really done anything with the inquisitor class, though, so if there's some reason why the inquisitor works particularly well with pact magic, would you mind pointing it out to me?

Incidentally, sorry to keep pestering about these things, I'm just trying to point out any features which look like they'll cause issues in play.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
You don't have to roll. You take the feat and BOOM. Permanent pact. The only time you have to roll if if you want the spirit's capstone empowerment or vestigial companion. Because spirits, like mortals, are lazy and don't want to be bothered with trivial things like "what powers do I get from you?"

Also missed the not rolling part. Sigh. Well. Now I know and knowing's half the battle.

In any case, good late game feat or feat for those who have a particularly favorite spirit (Used to be Cromwell for me, might be Marat even with new changes..maybe...).

So, not that I'd ever do it, but, would it be possible to make Permanent Pact so that you could take it multiple times (along with spirit focuses) to the extent where say, a villain NPC has every "Pact slot" filled with permanent pacts?

Contributor

Third Mind wrote:
So, I was flipping ahead to the higher spirits for fun (since I'll likely never reach them) and I came across Goliath. Sort of surprised that one of his minors isn't making you one step bigger. I know his flavor is that of torture and pain, but he's also a fire giant. Granted, you become a bit taller as a physical sign though... just an observation, nothing critical.

*Was* a fire giant. We imply that he technically became the first kyton demagogue, and in order to show reality how much he loved self-mutilation, he literally tortured himself out of reality.

Contributor

Third Mind wrote:
So, not that I'd ever do it, but, would it be possible to make Permanent Pact so that you could take it multiple times (along with spirit focuses) to the extent where say, a villain NPC has every "Pact slot" filled with permanent pacts?

I like it being restricted better because it makes the one spirit that you made a permanent pact with special.

That said, a prestige class that has multiple permanent pacts sounds pretty cool.


Newb question here. I read the section about vestigial companions. What if I'm playing an occultist, and I don't want a vestigial companion for whatever reason? Are there any options to swap them or or not acquire them?

Contributor

Quote:
That's what I was referring to. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I've gained from looking at the spirits and from the terms used (spirit levels 1-9, binder level being equal to your class level, practiced binder feat, etc), binder level is roughly equivalent to caster level, and spirit access is roughly equivalent to maximum spell level. If that is an appropriate comparison, then a (single classed) character with the bind spirits class feature binds with "caster level" equal to class level, and "maximum spell level" around 2/3 class level - ie about the same as a 2/3 spellcaster. However, while the 2/3 spellcaster gets about the same number of spells as a full caster of 2/3 his level, a 2/3 binding character gets the same number of spirits as an occultist of level 1-3!

Don't judge spirit access by spell access. They aren't the same. For starters, many of a spirit's powers are passive and at least one is usable at-will. One use of a granted ability's general power level is comparable to one use of a spell, but that's about where comparisons stop. Most spirits have abilities that scale with their level, allowing them to remain viable throughout multiple tiers of play. Color spay may stop being viable beyond 4th level, but the powers that Aza'azati grants you are viable (perhaps not optimal in every situation, but nevertheless viable) throughout your entire career.

Quote:
Fair enough, that seems reasonable :) . The problem is that the sibyl currently loses nearly all the magus's key abilities for spirit binding related abilities - the only things that remain are the arcane pool, arcanas and bonus feats (assuming that the now-irrelevant armour proficiencies get changed into something more useful in a future update).

This isn't true either; spell combat and spellstrike get repurposed for occult powers; the sibyl doesn't lose them. The only thing that changes is that spell combat drops the notes about adding to concentration checks because the majority of occult abilities don't need them. Additionally, armor proficiencies got changed because you don't NEED anything special to use supernatural abilities in armor. Getting the ability to use better armor without suffering an increased armor check penalty is useful no matter what level its earned at.

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I am concerned, though, that the key abilities of the sibyl - other than binding - both appear in the first two levels, and there's nothing to stop a character with binding from another class from getting those abilities by just taking a couple of levels of sibyl. In particular, a sibyl 2/occultist x is very nearly as good at pact binding as a pure occultist, and yet gains all of the benefits of occult combat and spiritstrike.

The standard magus is just as dippable in that respect.

An occultist X / sibyl 2 loses: +1 base attack bonus (leaving her at +1 at 3rd level, which is at the same point as a wizard, is two levels behind on her iterative spirits, and she is 2 levels behind on her maximum spirit level (she doesn't get 2nd level spirits until 5th, which is a huge amount of time to wait). About the only positive is that your Fortitude and Will saves will be +3 higher, but those are already good saves for the occultist and now her Reflex will remain at +0 until Level 4.

There are trade offs to multiclassing, and while the pact magic classes synergize, its not a no-brain choice like it was in Vol 1 or 2.


Derrick Harris wrote:
Newb question here. I read the section about vestigial companions. What if I'm playing an occultist, and I don't want a vestigial companion for whatever reason? Are there any options to swap them or or not acquire them?

All Vestigial Companions are optional. In order to get one you actually have to switch it out with another ability (or other thing) it mentions near the end of the Vestigial Companion wording. So. You don't have to take it and it is completely optional.

For example, take the spirit Sevnoir, the Meandering Mastiff. In order to gain her Vestigial Companion, you have to replace the minor ability "feast of fear" to get it. You choose when you make the pact with the spirit.


Third Mind wrote:
Derrick Harris wrote:
Newb question here. I read the section about vestigial companions. What if I'm playing an occultist, and I don't want a vestigial companion for whatever reason? Are there any options to swap them or or not acquire them?

All Vestigial Companions are optional. In order to get one you actually have to switch it out with another ability (or other thing) it mentions near the end of the Vestigial Companion wording. So. You don't have to take it and it is completely optional.

For example, take the spirit Sevnoir, the Meandering Mastiff. In order to gain her Vestigial Companion, you have to replace the minor ability "feast of fear" to get it. You choose when you make the pact with the spirit.

Ohhhh I see. The information is under the individual spirit descriptions. Thank you very much.


Level 5 Spirits

Spirit Analysis:

Arthu, The Sleeping King
This spirit has gotten a name change as well as other revisions.
Skill at Arms: This ability is weaker than before, only applying to one specific weapon at a time (but weapon-like spells/abilities count). The old ability was really good so I can understand this change. It does a maximum of 5d6 (vs. the old 5d6+5) damage, which isn't a huge difference, but the capstone is much weaker--you can make a free trip attempt as part of a full-round action but there are no bonuses to it nor does it protect you from AoOs.
King's Dancing Blade: This ability has also gotten weaker--while the dancing longsword is more powerful quicker, it is limited to 3+Cha/day instead of at-will. The action has also been increased to a standard action from a move action. I liked the imagery of the at-will dancing blade.
Royal Pleasantries: Same as before.
Supernatural Inspiration: This replaces the old Inspire Courage and is a buff--instead of having to perform like a bard it's a move-action morale bonus for 1 minute, usable +Cha/day.
Windwhispers: Renamed from Corpsewhisper but also weakened--its maximum range is now 5 miles. You can still only use it once an hour which also reduces its effectiveness.
Vestigial Bond: Same as before.
Influence: Same as before.

Beautiful Balr, The Son Forever Set
A new spirit that is based on real-world mythology and is a great spirit.
Spurn Harm: As an immediate action you can negate any attack that requires an attack roll or does not ignore spell resistance. The capstone lets you use it while dazed, stunned, or paralyzed. Some really great imagery with this one and it's a great ability.
Challenge Coward: Once per creature per day you gain a powerful taunt against a target that lasts one minute, negated by Will. Another great ability.
Distracting Beauty: You can use feint as a move action, and if you have Improved Feint you can use it as a swift action. For anyone that wants opponents flat-footed this is a good ability that's great if you have the feat.
Inspiring Beauty: 3+Cha/Day you can double all morale bonuses that one ally within 30 ft. benefits from until the end of the turn. If you want your barbarian companion to hit even harder than before, use this.
Peerless Beauty: Insight bonus on Charisma-checks and Charisma-based skill checked. This means all Charisma skills and more importantly, all binding checks. An excellent ability.
Vestigial Bond: You gain an aasimar cohort (your level-2) that has all its levels in warrior. It can also only select feats from the weapon and shield ranger combat style (until it has all of them). You can't construct it as you want, but you're going to have a companion that can take a hit.
Influence: You mourn the loss of life and bury anything dead you come across. Not good to have on a large battlefield.

Circe's Runes, Refuge of Pacts
Circe is back and is stronger for her (their?) revisions. Also of note is the extra page that shows all the runes as well as what they look like, which is a nice addition.
Seance of Circe: This ability has been modified--the old spirit's personality influence lingers for 24 hours, but the huge change here is that any abilities that the spirit possesses that are limited in use are suppressed. If you have the capstone you gain half the usual uses/duration. You also have to bond with Circe's Runes for an entire week. I think the revision was probably necessary, but I feel this current revision is too harsh. Expel Spirits ensures you won't be making a good pact with anyone anytime soon the more you use it, and this ability is only good for those who can bind more than one spirit (or who keep Circe's Runes as a Reserve Spirit). I think if the personality influence didn't linger (but any disobeyment penalties did) then the balance would be correct.
Arcane Audacity: Same as before, excpet the bonus to identifying spells that can be targeted by erase has been removed, which isn't a huge deal.
Circe's Temper: This is a new minor ability; 3+Cha/day standard action to inflict 1d6/binder level of untyped damage to all enemies within 20 feet. This is really nice--maybe too powerful.
Circe's Foresight: Pretty much the same as before, and still dependent on having a good GM who can tell you what will be useful. Otherwise it's fairly useless, but that's fine considering her (their?) other abilities.
Rune of Circe: This rune has changed to be clearer. You select a rune and you cast that rune's spell-like abilities 3+Cha/day. At 15th level and 20th level you can select an additional rune. An overall buff and nice to see.
Vestigial Bond: This has changed--you bond 3+Cha creatures together via a 10-minute action and they can speak and understand each other's languages as before; in addition, they can bypass a rune of Circe without setting it off. You lose the "share rune's spell-like abilities" of the old version, but you also replace Circe's foresight instead of half of Circe's runes. Also an overall buff and one I'd always take.
Influence: Not sure if this has changed, as it lists Arthu's.

Dark Blood, The Rakshasa Prince
Dark Blood is pretty much the same as before and still a great spirit choice.
Thirst for Blood: This ability has been modified and cleaned up. Now as a swfit action you gain an extra standard action on your turn. During the next round you can only take 1 move action and 1 swift action. The capstone allows you to activate the ability as a free action. This is an overall buff and is easier to use/keep track of.
Disguise Granted Abilities: Same as before.
Rakshasa's Rage: Same as before and still as useful.
Read Mind: This has been cleaned up and now functions as detect thoughts in all forms.
Silver Tongue: Same as before.
Vestigial Bond: Same as before.
Influence: Cleaned up and makes more sense an an influence. It's the same as before except you also put those beneath you in their place.

Green Glomairah, The World Tree
Green Glomairah has been changed to focus on protecting you and not your friends.
Ward Against Harm: This ability has been cleaned up and is more useful--while you can no longer protect your allies you can use it as an immediate action to become immune to a wide variety of conditions until the end of the turn. The capstone also protects against exhausted and stunned.
Nature's Health: Same as before, but explicitly states it also includes magical poisons and disease. A nice clarification.
Negativity Ward: This replaces Infusion of Nature which provided Lay on Hands. In exchange you are immune to all emotion and fear effects.
Speak with Plants: Now functions as the spell 3+Cha/day and is a reduction in the amount of time you can speak with plants. Makes sense as a change.
Tree Stride: Cleaned up to allow you to cast the spell 3+Cha/day. More or less the same as before.
Vestigial Bond: Same as before and replaces Negativity Ward.
Influence: Same as before, but forces you to take action of some sort.

Loathix, Lord of Linnorms
Loathix is a pretty solid spirit and has some nice abilities. Also dragon.
Tornado Breath: 90 ft. line of sonic damage, 1d6/binder level. The capstone adds a deafened effect to damaged creatures. A strong ability.
Death Curse: This is interesting--if something kills you, you enact a curse on it that Will negates. Each hour the target loses 1d4 Cha and when at 0 Cha, each hour it has to make a Fort save or die. If it dies, you burst out of its body, reincarnated as a kobold (poor pact) or wyvaran (good pact). I think this ability would be better if it didn't have a Will save, as the amount of time it'd take to kill the target gives it an opportunity to get remove curse cast.
Father's Form: You gain immunity to sleep effects, paralysis effects, curse effects, mind-affecting abilities, and electricity damage. A nice suite of immunities.
Knockback Breath: You can increase the number of rounds Tornado Breath is expended by 1d4+1 in order to make a free trip attack attempt against all targets that take damage. This can be useful, and the CMB is your binder level + your Charisma modifier.
Master of the Storm: 3+binder level/day you can cast either call lightning or control wind (they share the same pool of uses). Another nice ability.
Vestigial Bond: You gain an allosaurus with a breath weapon. This replaces father's form. A nice companion to have.
Influence: You hate art literature and must destroy them. You also attack dragons above all other foes. Really bad if you're in a library or a museum, and may also apply to your party's spellbooks if you see them.

Mishpo, The Rightful Kobold
A kobold spirit! Nice to see some more races as spirits. It also helps that he's really good.
Freedom from Confinement: As a swift action you gain the benefits of freedom of movement and you can move through 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood as if incorporeal. The capstone also gives you the benefit of movement not provoking AoOs. I know that the material thicknesses are taken from x-ray vision, but they seem somewhat odd here. I'm not sure what a good distance would be at the moment, but I'd like to see this revised.
Con Artist: Bonus on Bluff and Sleight of Hand and you get a better bonus if you're trying to get money.
Master of Deception: Select 3 2nd-level or lower spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. You can cast each 2/day. A very nice ability.
Trap Knack: You can disarm magical traps as a rouge and you gain the benefits of Learn Ranger Trap and can set magical traps and you use your Cha instead of Wis. Situational, put still useful. Mishpo doesn't give any bonus to Disable Device, so you'll need to bring your own ranks. Situationally useful, but there are some nice ranger traps.
Wink-Wink: As a swift action you can give yourself a +10 bonus to Bluff or Intimidate 3+Cha/day. Another useful ability.
Vestigial Bond: You have a shimmering kobold hand that follows your mental commands and gives you the ability to cast mage hand and unseen servant at will. You also gain magic missiles 3/day, pilfering hand 3/day, and the ranged legerdemain arcane trickster ability. You give up Master of Deception for this. A hard choice since both are good.
Influence: You must lie, cheat, and steal. Most player characters won't even notice a difference.

Noble Marius, Psychic Vampire
Noble Marius receives some minor buffs and is still a good spirit.
Mind-Leeching Kiss: Wow--a definite buff here. The wording has been cleaned up as well--the old capstone (+4 to Int/wis/or Cha) is wrapped into the main feeblemind ability. A creature that succeeds on its Will save suffers -4 to Int/Wis/Cha for 1 day, making it easier for your ability to stick next time. Fun tip: Kiss your party members before you roll that binding check for some additional help.
Noble Guise: Same as before.
Read Psychic Residue: Cleaned up and uses increased to 3+Cha/day. This ability is situational, but if you're investigating a murder it's invaluable.
Telekinesis: Same as before.
Vampire's Embrace: Same as before.
Vestigial Bond: It now functions as telepathic bond 3+Cha/day. Not sure if I like this change.
Influence: Same as before.

Omlan Atlan, Father Soul Weaver
You can bind the king of binders himself, and he earns the title by having a really strong major.
Dopplespell: If you liked Essex Avex's old ability, you'll like this one. You create a duplicate of yourself as lesser simulacrum with no duration. With the capstone it acts as simulacrum, but it only lasts for 4 rounds. Still, getting the old Split the Twins at 5th is amazing, even if less powerful than before.
Blessing of Omlan: You grant an arcane spellcaster a bonus on concentration checks equal to half your level. Meh.
Fabrication: You can cast fabrication 3/day. It's weird that it doesn't scale, though.
Lore of Omlan: You gain a bonus on Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(Planes), Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device. In addition, if you are able to cast spells you gain the benefits of Eschew Materials. A nice suite of bonuses.
Occult Reformation: Do you love the retraining rules but hate that you don't have downtime? This spirit allows you to peform 8 days worth of retraining in 8 hours. You still spend the gold, but this is a great ability.
Vestigial Bond: Any simulacrum you create is treated as your vestigial companion. This allows some archetypes with specialized Tunneled Lore to bind this spirit.
Influence: You interview arcane spellcasters and attempt to identify anything arcane or occult. Not a bad influence to have.

Pavatu, Child of the Wind
This spirit has a lot of air related powers and is a decent spirit.
Rebuking Gale: As an immediate action you can make an Acrobatics, Escape Artist, or Fly skill check and use it as your AC (both touch and non-touch). You can't use the ability while flanked or denied your Dex bonus to AC. The capstone lets you use this on an ally within 30 ft. A nice ability, but it loses some shine when you realize that Pavatu doesn't grant you bonuses to any of those three skills.
Leap with the Wind: When you make an Acrobatics check to reduce falling damage you take, you ignore 10 more ft. I would rather see this as feather fall 3+Cha/day and it would fit thematically of you manipulating the wind.
Gale Form: You can transform into an elemental for binder level/minutes per day. It also scales and is a good ability to have.
Tongue of the Wind: You can cast sending 3+binder level/day, but you can't use it in places that don't have wind. Situationally useful.
Vanishing Breeze: You gain Wind Stance and then Lightning Stance at 15. When you take two actions to move or withdraw you can become invisible until the start of your next turn as a swift action. Usable 3+Cha/day. I'd like Lightning Stance a little sooner and the invisibility can be useful, but the way the wording is the enemy will always know what square you're in (since you can't use the ability until you've either taken two move actions or the withdraw action). Still a 50% miss chance but it loses a little utility.
Vestigial Bond: You gain an air elemental familiar and replaces vanishing breeze. A good exchange.
Influence: You remain silent and refuse to be restrained. You also hide from people until you've been formally introduced to them. with the Physical Sign of not being able to control the volume of your voice you won't be making many friends.

Rattenkonig, The Seething swarm
Another race-based spirit, we now have a ratfolk in the mix, and the abilities he brings are very unique.
Body of Rattenkonig: You can turn into a swarm of rats. The capstone lets you switch back to your true form as a move action instead of a standard action, but it seems to be missing something--maybe the ability to inflict a disease or some minor debuff? Even so, being able to turn into a swarm is useful.
Disgustingly Tolerant: Bonus on saves vs. sickened / nauseated. Can be useful.
Fusion: You fuse the corpse of a dead creature of your type into your body, gaining a +2 alchemical bonus to an ability score for 1 hour/binder level and healing hp equal to the creature's CR. 3+Cha/day. A nice, if disturbing, ability.
Rat Senses: You gain darkvision and scent, and double the range if you already have them.
Rattenkonig Tactics: You gain solo tactics as an inquisitor and can share the space with up to one ally of the same size or larger--if you do this you count as flanking. This can be useful when you and your allies can't actually flank a creature.
Vestigial Bond: You get a dire rat, but you lose fusion. I'd probably keep fusion.
Influence: You're the best and won't share with others.

Tentacles of Dagon, Lord of Sea Fiends
Dagon has undergone some changes and is stronger for it.
Delay Harm: Same as before, but some clarification--the damage can't be dispelled, reduced by damage reduction or resistances, delayed by another ability, or otherwise prevented. The part that is worse is that it can't be reduced by damage reduction or resistances. Capstone is still the same. This ability is still useful and can prevent death.
Body of Dagon: Same bonuses as before, but can be used more often--binder level minutes/day.
Child of the Deeps: Same as before.
Dagon Knows: Same as before.
Whispers of Dagon: Same as before, but you now also get a bonus to Sense Motive.
Vestigial Bond: This ability has been clarified and buffed.
Influence: Same as before, but instead of "entering water whenever possible" (troughs, puddles, people's baths) it has changed to "any ocean or lake you visit." Much better.

Teu and Lae
Another spirit composed of multiple beings, a kitsune and hound archon. Similar to Dark Cornelius, you get different bonuses depending upon who you're bound to, and those bonuses are great for either choice.
Eternal Chase: As a move action you activate a teleportation effect. The capstone allows you to change whether you're bound to Teu or Lae as a free action.
Teu: You switch places with one target within 60 ft and an unwilling target can negate it with a Will save. If you were entangled or grappled your target gains those conditions. This is a buffed of version of Marat's major ability and is even more useful than it is.
Lae: You teleport up to 30 ft. and if you teleport next to a creature you can create a chain of force as a free action, functioning as chains of perdition. Another useful ability.
Both of these majors are useful and worth binding the spirit for.
Agathion Blessing: You gain lay on hands as a Palading of half your binder level and can use it Cha bonus times per day. Stacks with Paladin uses of lay on hands. A nice ability.
Bind Paradox: Choose Teu or Lae to bind to.
Teu: Add Int bonus on initiative and Reflex saves
Lae: You can transform into any canine creature as a standard action as beast shape III.
Another nice pair of abilities.
Celestial Pounce: Any turn you use Eternal Chase you can make a full attack as a standard action. No downside to this, even if it's only once / 4 rounds / 5 rounds.
Truespeech: You gain constant tongues. Also good.
Vestigial Bond: You gain a dog animal companion that changes its appearance based on who you're bound to.
Influence: You pay attention to sounds and when you double move you must use the run action. Nothing too major for a penalty.

Vodavox, The Hive Mind
The Hive Mind returns
Phrenic Blast: This ability has been buffed damage wise and no longer has a save to reduce damage. It is a mind-affecting effect so will be useless against the undead. The capstone still dazes, but no longer has the option to increase the activation time to increase the DC. Not a huge loss, honestly. This has been upgraded to a great ability.
Aberrant Mind: Same as before.
Enhanced Body: Split off from Insectoid Body, which has changed to encompass Spell-Warding Chitin.
Insectoid Body: You gain a fly speed, +4 natural AC, a sting attack for 1d6 and spell-resistance of 13+binder level. This is a polymorph effect and can be used binder level minutes/day. A huge buff to Vodavox's old Insectoid Body even if it's limited in uses/day.
Mind Link: Renamed from Telepathic Bond, you can no longer have a bond that lasts until the pact ends--instead you get to cast telepathic bond 3+Cha/day. A slight reduction in power.
Vestigial Bond: This has been cleaned up to grant a giant wasp and now replaces insectoid body. I would normally choose Insectoid Body.

Errors:

P168, Arthu, Legend: "Finally, Arthu sired a son, abet an illegitimate one, to powerful enchantress."

P169, Beautiful Balr, Manifestation: "Color drains for your body..."

P169, Beautiful Balr, Legend: "...the Queen of Life could not bare the though..."

P169, Beautiful Balr, Challenge Coward: "The target is unable to opponents..."

P170, Circe's Runes, Totems: "You have been spurn by a lover..."

P170, Circe's Runes, Legend: "Such stories claims..."

P170, Circe's Runes, Signs and Influence: This lists Arthu's instead of Circe's.

P172, Dark Blood, Rakshasa's Rage: When it states "grants the benefits of rage" does this mean the spell? If so, it should be italicized; "This ability is mind-affecting emotion effect..."

P172, Dark Blood, Personality Influence: "You act animistic towards others..."

P173, Green Glomairah, Manifestation: "Your brain begins to grow supernaturally long..."

P173, Green Glomairah, Legend: "...until he was finally set to war against an army of hobgoblins."

P175, Loathix, Legend: "...offers one explanation for origin of the chromatic..."; "...an reminder of the cost of their feud."

P175, Loathix, Death Curse: "...1d4 points of Charisma drain every hours..."

P176, Mishpo, Legend: It start with "In one city, the urban legend of one such kobold..." I know it refers to the short description of the spirit, but reading in order this seems out of place.

P177, Noble Marius, Vestigial Bond: Telepathic bond should be italicized.

P179, Pavatu, Legend: "...defeat each elemental lord one by one, imprisoning them one by one.."

P180, Rattenkonig, Totems: "The blood uses in Rattenkonig's ceremony..."

P180, Rattenkonig, Vestigial Bond: Refers to "eagle."

P182, Tentacles of Dagon, Description: "...are a mysterious spirit believe to have a demon lord and a mysterious entity known as 'That which Invades.'"

P182, Tentacles of Dagon, Dagon Knows: Divination need to be italicized.

Questions:

Q: Arthu, Skill at Arms: When you use this skill on natural attacks, it is only for one specific natural attack or does it affect all natural attacks made? The capstone also doesn't prevent attacks of opportunity when using the free trip, which reduces its usefulness.

Q: Beautiful Balr, Spurn Harm: The example of acid arrow is confusing, as it requires an attack roll. Does the attack roll requirement superscede the spell resistance requirement?

Q: Circe's Runes, Seance of Circe: You have to bond with Circe's Runes for an entire week--can Flexible Pactmaking be used to bind her and if so, is it minimum of 4 days, 4 hours, maximum of 12 days? Also are limited use abilities expended for 24 hours or if you bind the same spirit multiple times with the capstone they are refreshed?

Q: Circe's Runes, Circe's Temper: I think this ability is too good if there's no save to take half damage. Should it have a save, and if so, what type?

Q: Circe's Runes, Rune of Circe: Is the 3+Cha/day limit for all of the spell-like abilities combined, or for each spell-like ability gained?

Q: Green Glomairah, Ward Against Harm: Both the major ability and its capstone mentions "sickened." Which protects against it?

Q: Green Glomairah, Negativity Ward: Does this immunity also prevent you benefiting from positive emotion effects?

Q: Loathix, Master of the Storm: Should this be 3+binder level/day or 3+Cha/day like other minor abilities of other spirits?

Q: Mishpo, Vestigial Companion: Does the shimmering kobold hand act as mage hand and unseen servant? Or do you get the ability to cast mage hand and unseen servant at will as the ability states? I can have a the hand and as many unseen servants as I want?

Q: Noble Marius, Vestigial Bond: Is the telepathic bond supposed to be 10 minutes/level or is it supposed to last for the duration of the pact?

Q: Omlan Atlan, Dopplespell: Is the lesser simulacrum created by this ability under your control? As per the spell it is not. Can you dismiss the lesser simulacrum or does that only occur when you use the ability again? Also, when using the capstone empowerment does the simulacrum get his own number of uses as abilities (as he would given the spell)? If I have the Vestigial Bond, does this still make him act as my vestigial companion? If so, that makes him less powerful as he's using my abilities and my cooldowns rather than his.

Q: Omlan Atlan, Fabrication: Why does this ability not gain additional uses like other minors (3+Cha/day)?

Q: Omlan Atlan, Vestigial Bond: Does this grant any special abilities other than qualifying for certain class features (like Spirit Caller's restrictions)?

Q: Rattenkonig, Fusion: What happens when the fusion ends? Does the dead body pop out of your body or does it disappear into the ether? If I switch forms by using another polymorph effect, like Fey Barradu, will this allow me to fuse creatures of my new type?

Q: Tentacles of Dagon, Dealy Harm: This ability states that the damage cannot be reduced by damage reduction or resistances. If I have resit fire 10 and I get hit by 32 fire, does 22 damage get delayed or 32 damage that can't be reduced? It makes sense for it to be 22, but my understanding was reduction/resistance took effect when the damage is dealt to you (which this ability delays).

Q: Vodavox, Prenic Blast: This ability has been upgraded to binder level/d6 a level of untyped damage, which is great, but I just wanted to make sure the "no save for half damage" is correct.


Alexander Augunas wrote:

I changed it to this:

"While you are bound to Kandisha, you gain a constant protection from evil effect, except the benefits only apply against male creatures of the following types are affected, regardless of alignment: humanoid, monstrous humanoid, outsider."

But in order to get it to fit, I had to drop the line about Kandisha's sand cloud penalizing Perception checks.

For Sand Cloud would it fit if it were:

Quote:

As a standard action you create a mass of sandy clouds, as solid fog. Creatures other than you suffer a -2 penalty to Perception, and your vision and movement are unimpeded. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

This takes the character count from 316 down to 251 for the description.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Additionally, armor proficiencies got changed because you don't NEED anything special to use supernatural abilities in armor. Getting the ability to use better armor without suffering an increased armor check penalty is useful no matter what level its earned at.

Ah, was that adjustment made after the playtest document was released by any chance? The copy of the document I have doesn't seem to make that adjustment, just leaving you with the default (and near-useless, as you point out) armour abilities. Either that or I've just missed it, which is entirely possible and if so I apologise for wasting your time. My internet connection is rather slow here, so I can't really redownload the pdf from drivethrurpg.com, but it claims it's not been updated since 3/4/15, ie the day I downloaded it.

Alexander Augunas wrote:


The standard magus is just as dippable in that respect...About the only positive is that your Fortitude and Will saves will be +3 higher

Unless this has also been updated since I downloaded the document, the occultist x/sibyl 2 can use occult combat and spiritstrike on all the spirit abilities he gets from the occultist, not just the abilities he gets from binding as a sibyl, since the system doesn't differentiate between the two. At, say, 11th level he can bind two spirits of up to fifth level, and can use occult combat and spiritstrike on both the major abilities in turn, as well as any of the minors from both spirits. At 12th level, he gets to bind a third spirit, and things get even better. An 11th level sibyl can bind (and use occult combat/spiritstrike with) only one spirit, which can be up to fourth level.

By contrast, a wizard would be silly to consider dipping in magus, not only because caster levels don't stack but also because spell combat and spellstrike only work with magus spells.

Contributor

The document has not been updated since I put it out last week. I probably won't update it until we get through the 9th level spirits, at least. Maybe spells too.


Most pact magic archetypes benefit from taking 4 levels in Occultist to get a second spirit--most of the test builds I've created have done this due to the increased versatility a second spirit brings to the archetypes.

Are there plans for any feat chains or prestige classes that would grant an additional permanent spirit? Reserve Spirit is nice, don't get me wrong, but it replaces one you have bound currently.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on a feat chain to allow an additional spirit binder slot, albeit with caveats.

Quote:

Receptive Soul:

Your body is more receptive to the presence of spirits, allowing you to bind an additional spirit.
Prerequisites: Bind spirits class feature, able to bind 2nd-level spirits, unyielding personality
Benefit: You can bind an additional spirit, but you can only bind spirits of half your maximum spirit level or lower (round down). In addition, this pact is always a poor pact and you cannot gain the capstone empowerment or vestigial bond of this spirit. Your effective binder level is halved for determining the effect of all granted abilities and any abilities that are limited per day have half of the normal number of uses.

Contributor

Orich wrote:
Are there plans for any feat chains or prestige classes that would grant an additional permanent spirit?

Feats, no. Prestige Classes, unlikely.

One spirit, with half binder level progression, is worth one feat.

The problem is that most granted abilities are multiplicative, meaning that you get more as you gain the ability to bind more.

Dipping four levels into occultist isn't something to take lightly; you may end up with the full, 20th level binding at 20th level but while you're leveling, you're going to be four levels behind in your class features and your class's binding. Since non-occultists get the 3rd-level spirit at 7th level, this means you're waiting until 11th level for your 3rd-level spirit. You'll be the mystic theurge of binders, so to speak.

Practical? Sure. But I think its a big weakness.

EDIT: To further clarify, Practiced Binder doesn't improve your maximum spirit level anymore; just your binder level for the purpose of determining the effects of your granted abilities. I'm looking at the feat now and it appears that I forgot to change it from the Volume 2 version, so that'll be updated.

Contributor

Quote:
Q: Arthu, Skill at Arms: When you use this skill on natural attacks, it is only for one specific natural attack or does it affect all natural attacks made? The capstone also doesn't prevent attacks of opportunity when using the free trip, which reduces its usefulness.

It says "one weapon," and each type of natural weapon is considered a separate weapon.

Quote:
Q: Beautiful Balr, Spurn Harm: The example of acid arrow is confusing, as it requires an attack roll. Does the attack roll requirement superscede the spell resistance requirement?

Either/or. The example has been changed to glitterdust.

Quote:
Q: Circe's Runes, Seance of Circe: You have to bond with Circe's Runes for an entire week--can Flexible Pactmaking be used to bind her and if so, is it minimum of 4 days, 4 hours, maximum of 12 days? Also are limited use abilities expended for 24 hours or if you bind the same spirit multiple times with the capstone they are refreshed?

You're not reading the ability right. It says that pacts made with the granted ability last for one week, not the pact with the Runes themselves. In any case, the pact is made instantaneously and there's no binding check rolled, so Flexible Pactmaking doesn't even have a chance to trigger.

Quote:
Q: Circe's Runes, Circe's Temper: I think this ability is too good if there's no save to take half damage. Should it have a save, and if so, what type?

AoE was boring. Here's the new ability.

"Circe’s Fury: You infuse one target that you can see with the rage kept within Circe’s Runes, all creatures within 20 feet to become affected as moonstruckAPG (including yourself). You can use this ability a number of times each day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier."

Quote:
Q: Circe's Runes, Rune of Circe: Is the 3+Cha/day limit for all of the spell-like abilities combined, or for each spell-like ability gained?

Each spell-like ability has its own uses.

Quote:
Q: Green Glomairah, Ward Against Harm: Both the major ability and its capstone mentions "sickened." Which protects against it?

Standard is sickened, capstone should be nauseated.

Quote:
Q: Green Glomairah, Negativity Ward: Does this immunity also prevent you benefiting from positive emotion effects?

Yes.

Quote:
Q: Loathix, Master of the Storm: Should this be 3+binder level/day or 3+Cha/day like other minor abilities of other spirits?

Yes.

Quote:
Q: Mishpo, Vestigial Companion: Does the shimmering kobold hand act as mage hand and unseen servant? Or do you get the ability to cast mage hand and unseen servant at will as the ability states? I can have a the hand and as many unseen servants as I want?

Its getting a rewrite to the following to make it a bit less confusing:

"While you are bound to Mishpo, you gain the following spell-like abilities, each appearing as a spectral kobold hand: at will—mage hand; 3/day—magic missile, pilfering handuc, unseen servant. While mage hand is active, you also gain the benefits of the ranged legerdemain arcane trickster ability. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted ability replaces master of deception."

But to answer your question, yes, you could blow all of your uses of unseen servant at once with this ability.


Alexander Augunas wrote:

You're not reading the ability right. It says that pacts made with the granted ability last for one week, not the pact with the Runes themselves. In any case, the pact is made instantaneously and there's no binding check rolled, so Flexible Pactmaking doesn't even have a chance to trigger.

Ah, yes--sorry--I misread that part and read "Circe's Runes" instead of "Seance of Circe."

So a full Occultist with 4 spirits would only be able to use the major 3 times (all spirits that aren't Circe) due to the new pacts being week-long and immune to Expel Spirits (which the major ability acts as)? After 3 times in the week this ability would then have no effect, correct? Can you use Seance of Circe on Circe's Runes?


This is a general question that applies to a bunch of powers. How do we calculate save DC's for Minor Abilities that are Spell Like-Abilities? Do we calculate them as normal for a Spell Like Ability (10 + Spell level + Chr Mod) or as normal for an Occultist Power (10 + 1/2 Binder Level + Chr Mod)??


Dexion1619 wrote:
This is a general question that applies to a bunch of powers. How do we calculate save DC's for Minor Abilities that are Spell Like-Abilities? Do we calculate them as normal for a Spell Like Ability (10 + Spell level + Chr Mod) or as normal for an Occultist Power (10 + 1/2 Binder Level + Chr Mod)??

From Chapter 3, Granted Abilities:

Quote:

Any references to level made by a granted ability refer to the binder’s level. A granted ability’s save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the binder’s level + his Charisma modifier. This includes any spell-like abilities that a granted ability bestows upon a binder.


Alexander Augunas wrote:

Dipping four levels into occultist isn't something to take lightly; you may end up with the full, 20th level binding at 20th level but while you're leveling, you're going to be four levels behind in your class features and your class's binding. Since non-occultists get the 3rd-level spirit at 7th level, this means you're waiting until 11th level for your 3rd-level spirit. You'll be the mystic theurge of binders, so to speak.

Practical? Sure. But I think its a big weakness.

True--that's why I was trying to think of a way to get a second spirit for those archetypes so they gain some more versatility with their binding class feature, especially for those that give up lots of spellcasting or other "core" features.

But it looks like I'm missing the point with those archetypes--I'm looking at them regarding binding as I do the Occultist, where it is the main feature/draw of the class. For them it is simply another class feature, one that is used to enhance their performance, not overtake it.

I'll rebuild with that in mind take another look at how things turn out.

Thank you for taking the time to discuss it at length--it helped me see the problem from a different perspective.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
"Select armor or weapons. While the occultist is bound to the hero spirit, she gains proficiency with all martial weapons if she chooses weapons, or proficiency with medium armor if she chooses armor. If she is already proficient with all martial weapons, the occultist gains proficiency with an exotic weapon of her choice instead. If the occultist is proficient with medium armor, she gains proficiency with heavy armor instead."

Seems solid to me. This is definitely one I'd consider using along with a hero spirit.

So, is Tommy Greensprout the only one that gives a constant flight movement speed? Sort of hope not... since I don't want to turn into a child and thus won't be selecting him.

Edit: ......suppose I could just use the search function. [Yup. Looks like Darkstar is the one I'll be waiting for.] (Also, looking at it now, Darkstar is one I think I would consider permanent pact on. Just fun all around.)


Alexander Augunas wrote:
"Select armor or weapons. While the occultist is bound to the hero spirit, she gains proficiency with all martial weapons if she chooses weapons, or proficiency with medium armor if she chooses armor. If she is already proficient with all martial weapons, the occultist gains proficiency with an exotic weapon of her choice instead. If the occultist is proficient with medium armor, she gains proficiency with heavy armor instead."

I think this is useful without being overpowered and the options make it always useful.

Alexander Augunas wrote:
The document has not been updated since I put it out last week. I probably won't update it until we get through the 9th level spirits, at least. Maybe spells too.

I'll run through the Level 6 spirits tomorrow and maybe I can get to the Level 7 spirits as well.


Orich wrote:

Q: Omlan Atlan, Vestigial Bond: Does this grant any special abilities other than qualifying for certain class features (like Spirit Caller's restrictions)?

I looked at this question again and realized I had already answered it in an earlier question.

This allows the simulacrum to gain the "Share Granted Abilities" feature as a normal vestigial companion.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Stalchild wrote:

I will say, I was a little disappointed that the Warbinder is no longer compatible with the Lore Warden archetype (it gives up Bravery, which the Warshade archetype does not).

Outside of that, I like everything I've read so far! I would point out the minor editing errors I've found, but I think others on this thread have done a much better job than I can, and at a much faster rate.

Lore Warden is my FAVORITE fighter archetype. And honestly, its REALLY good for what it does. Lore Warden + Warbinder = Everyone's fighter forever. The trade was designed specifically FOR Lore Warden, in fact.

Admittedly, in my home games, basic fighters are more or less banned ('heavily discouraged') because they have so little interesting about them, so I will probably let the combo happen anyway.


Orich wrote:

Any references to level made by a granted ability refer to the binder’s level. A granted ability’s save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the binder’s level + his Charisma modifier. This includes any spell-like abilities that a granted ability bestows upon a binder.

Thanks Orich, I missed that.

Contributor

Quote:
Q: Noble Marius, Vestigial Bond: Is the telepathic bond supposed to be 10 minutes/level or is it supposed to last for the duration of the pact?

Yes. It is being updated to reflect this intent in the next build.

Quote:
Q: Omlan Atlan, Dopplespell: Is the lesser simulacrum created by this ability under your control? As per the spell it is not. Can you dismiss the lesser simulacrum or does that only occur when you use the ability again? Also, when using the capstone empowerment does the simulacrum get his own number of uses as abilities (as he would given the spell)? If I have the Vestigial Bond, does this still make him act as my vestigial companion? If so, that makes him less powerful as he's using my abilities and my cooldowns rather than his.

— No, you don't.

— No, you can't.
— Lesser simulacrum doesn't give magical abilities, and supernatural abilities are magical abilities. He wouldn't have anything unless you made him your vestigial companion.

Quote:
Q: Omlan Atlan, Fabrication: Why does this ability not gain additional uses like other minors (3+Cha/day)?

In the original document, the rule that granted abilities that function as spells required their material components wasn't presence. Now that its there, this can be changed to be less restrictive. Fixed.

Quote:
Q: Omlan Atlan, Vestigial Bond: Does this grant any special abilities other than qualifying for certain class features (like Spirit Caller's restrictions)?

No. It only grants the lesser simulacrum Omlan Atlan's granted abilities, just like any other vestigial companion. You'll note that most of weirder VC-dependent classes state that their VC has to function as a specific class feature; this spirit is an example of one that could not be chosen by, say, the spirit caller.

Quote:
Q: Rattenkonig, Fusion: What happens when the fusion ends? Does the dead body pop out of your body or does it disappear into the ether? If I switch forms by using another polymorph effect, like Fey Barradu, will this allow me to fuse creatures of my new type?

— The corpse is effectively destroyed. Your body assimilates it into your own. This will be updated in the next build.

— No, because polymorph spells don't change your type.

Quote:
Q: Tentacles of Dagon, Dealy Harm: This ability states that the damage cannot be reduced by damage reduction or resistances. If I have resit fire 10 and I get hit by 32 fire, does 22 damage get delayed or 32 damage that can't be reduced? It makes sense for it to be 22, but my understanding was reduction/resistance took effect when the damage is dealt to you (which this ability delays).

Now reads like this:

"Delay Harm: When you are targeted by an attack, spell, or harmful effect you can distort time as an immediate action, delaying the onset of that attack, spell, or harmful effect for 1 round. Delay harm delays all aspects of this effect: damage is not dealt to you, disease and poison does not begin its onset, and spell effects do not affect you, including death effects. If the delayed effect targets multiple creatures, its effects are only delayed for you. Effects that reduce the amount of damage that is dealt to you (such as damage reduction) are applied before using this ability; after dely harm ends, the effect cannot be dispelled, delayed by another ability, or otherwise prevented. After using this ability, it becomes expended for 5 rounds."

But had to change the VC to this to make it fit (tell me if it still makes sense):

"You gain a zombieB1 human cohort with a number of class levels in the warrior NPC class levels equal to your binder level –4. You can issue commands to the zombie as if using command undead. This granted ability replaces body of Dagon."

Quote:
Q: Vodavox, Prenic Blast: This ability has been upgraded to binder level/d6 a level of untyped damage, which is great, but I just wanted to make sure the "no save for half damage" is correct.
Quote:
Q: Vodavox, Prenic Blast: This ability has been upgraded to binder level/d6 a level of untyped damage, which is great, but I just wanted to make sure the "no save for half damage" is correct.

No, it should allow a Will save for half damage.

Also, reviewing my notes (and working on Omlan Atlan) made me realize two things:
— Muse Istago having lesser simulacrum is too good because that's a 4th-level spell on a 3rd level spirit.
— Muse Istago having lesser simulacrum isn't all that inventive because Omlan Atlan does a LOT with simulacrums.

So I'm going to be re-revisiting Muse Istago's VC.

Contributor

Quote:
Seems solid to me. This is definitely one I'd consider using along with a hero spirit.

Yeah, that's actually one of the balancing points of Tommy Greensprout. "You gain a constant fly speed at Level 5! ... but you're 8 years old for the entire pact.

Quote:
Edit: ......suppose I could just use the search function. [Yup. Looks like Darkstar is the one I'll be waiting for.] (Also, looking at it now, Darkstar is one I think I would consider permanent pact on. Just fun all around.)

I don't know if I'm going to have space for it, but Damian Darkstar is one of the spirits that I *might* be making a special Prestige Class for. In Secrets of Pact Magic, Damian had special rules for binding him as a lower-level spirit, and how I want to handle stuff like that is via Prestige Classes.

Contributor

Quote:
I'll run through the Level 6 spirits tomorrow and maybe I can get to the Level 7 spirits as well.

No need to rush. I work both my jobs on Wednesdays, so I won't be home as much today to comment on things or make changes.


Does the Seer's Canny Prediction constellation aspect replace the dice roll with an 11 (as it did in the previous version of the occultist, and as is suggested by "you may not replace a natural 1...") or does it replace the entire initiative check including modifiers with an 11 ("you may replace the result of any initiative check...")?


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Quote:
Q: Omlan Atlan, Dopplespell: Is the lesser simulacrum created by this ability under your control? As per the spell it is not. Can you dismiss the lesser simulacrum or does that only occur when you use the ability again? Also, when using the capstone empowerment does the simulacrum get his own number of uses as abilities (as he would given the spell)? If I have the Vestigial Bond, does this still make him act as my vestigial companion? If so, that makes him less powerful as he's using my abilities and my cooldowns rather than his.

— No, you don't.

— No, you can't.
— Lesser simulacrum doesn't give magical abilities, and supernatural abilities are magical abilities. He wouldn't have anything unless you made him your vestigial companion.

Sorry for the additional questions, but for clarification:

- The lesser simulacrum created by the non-capstone ability is not under your direct control.
- The lesser simulacrum cannot be dismissed.
- The lesser simulacrum can only be recreated if it dies due to the way the major ability is expended (duration of lesser simulacrum / 5 rounds thereafter).

Q: With the capstone, the simulacrum that you create has none of your supernatural or magical abilities on its own. As per the spell a simulacrum gains all of the special abilities of the creature it is created from, albeit at half-power.

Q: If the capstone simulacrum has its own magical powers, if you have Omlan Atlan's Vestigial Bond, does this overwrites the capstone simulacrum's own special abilities with those of a vestigial companion?

Q: If you have have the Vestigial Bond, does this allow you to have control over your lesser simulacrum (since it is then treated as a vestigial companion)?

Alexander Augunas wrote:

"You gain a zombieB1 human cohort with a number of class levels in the warrior NPC class levels equal to your binder level –4. You can issue commands to the zombie as if using command undead. This granted ability replaces body of Dagon."

Yes, I think this still reads well.

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Also, reviewing my notes (and working on Omlan Atlan) made me realize two things:

— Muse Istago having lesser simulacrum is too good because that's a 4th-level spell on a 3rd level spirit.
— Muse Istago having lesser simulacrum isn't all that inventive because Omlan Atlan does a LOT with simulacrums.

So I'm going to be re-revisiting Muse Istago's VC.

I didn't realize that Omlan Atlan had the same ability, and I agree that Muse Istago having lesser simulacrum as a vestigial companion would dilute the uniqueness of Omlan Atlan.

I think a companion with change shape or disguise self could match the feel of the simulacrum, as the creature of your imagination's form is mutable.

Another option would be to have a companion created from one of the summon spells.

I'll think on it some more and see what other suggestions I can come up (provided you still need them, of course).


Just an idea for Muse's vestigial. What about something along the lines of the marvelous pigments magic item, just a little bit more limited? Basically paint mundane non-living objects into reality.

Contributor

Orich wrote:


- The lesser simulacrum created by the non-capstone ability is not under your direct control.
- The lesser simulacrum cannot be dismissed.
- The lesser simulacrum can only be recreated if it dies due to the way the major ability is expended (duration of lesser simulacrum / 5 rounds thereafter).

Yes.

Quote:
Q: With the capstone, the simulacrum that you create has none of your supernatural or magical abilities on its own. As per the spell a simulacrum gains all of the special abilities of the creature it is created from, albeit at half-power.

Yes, but Omlan Atlan's ability functions as LESSER simulacrum, and LESSER simulacrum specifically says no magical abilities.

Quote:
Q: If you have have the Vestigial Bond, does this allow you to have control over your lesser simulacrum (since it is then treated as a vestigial companion)?

No. Hope you made nice with it. ;-)

Contributor

Chapter 5 of the Grimoire includes a new spell 3rd-level called alter other, which functions as alter self except it can target you or another creature.

Muse Istago is going to give that ability as a vestigial boon, replacing perfect attributes. In a sense, Istago can either perfect you or repaint you into something entirely different.

Contributor

pi4t wrote:
Does the Seer's Canny Prediction constellation aspect replace the dice roll with an 11 (as it did in the previous version of the occultist, and as is suggested by "you may not replace a natural 1...") or does it replace the entire initiative check including modifiers with an 11 ("you may replace the result of any initiative check...")?

Yes. If it doesn't say "replace," then I need to go back and fix it.

Contributor

Adjustment I need to make:

""Select armor or weapons. While the occultist is bound to the hero spirit, she gains proficiency with all martial weapons if she chooses weapons, or proficiency with medium armor if she chooses armor. If she is already proficient with all martial weapons and she chooses weapons with this aspect, the occultist gains proficiency with an exotic weapon of her choice instead. If the occultist is proficient with medium armor and she chooses armor with this aspect, she gains proficiency with heavy armor instead.""


It says you may "substitute" rather than "replace" (apologies, that was my error above and my internet connection broke after posting until after I'd missed the edit window), but I was confused because it also says you can't substitute a natural 1 for the 11, which incorrectly suggests that you're using an 11 instead of your dice roll. I suggest the following replace "She may not substitute a natural 1 for an 11 in this manner":

She may not perform this substitution on an initiative check where a natural 1 was rolled.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Yes, but Omlan Atlan's ability functions as LESSER simulacrum, and LESSER simulacrum specifically says no magical abilities.

Augh--sorry. For some reason my brain kept thinking the simulacrum mentioned in the capstone was the upgraded spell, not the creature.

That'll teach me to read over spirits late at night.


Some questions I still have hovering about.

Q: Any chance at getting an STR bump for Cromwell's major ability?

Q: Is the accuracy pact augmentation supposed to start earlier in lv.? Or is the ability to take it at 1st, then 4th etc a typo (which I assume it is considering augmentations start at 3)

Q: Is there a fast way to switch spirits either mid battle or full round just before? I ask because that's how I see the class becoming actually versatile. Perhaps that's what the retainer feat is for?

Q: If Tartarus is meant to be impossible or near impossible to make a good pact with, is there an actual need for a DC to bind it?

Q: Any chance Scribe Binder Tattoo will be tweaked so its more useable?

Edit: Now that I think about it though, permanent pact with Tartarus could be lots of flavor fun. Not sure his major is strong enough since at that level, lots of things either have extremely high CMD or ways of bypassing grapple (teleporting, freedom of movement, gaseous form, etc...) or planeshift, but I probably will never make it to 9th level spirits in testing time. Would love a chance to though.


Third Mind wrote:

Q: Is there a fast way to switch spirits either mid battle or full round just before? I ask because that's how I see the class becoming actually versatile. Perhaps that's what the retainer feat is for?

Yup, that's where the Reserve Spirit feat comes in. It's a full-round action to do the swap, but I have used it to great effect when I realized that one of my spirits was going to be less than ideal for an upcoming encounter.

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