Baleful Polymorph : +4 on save if animal form is fatal

[Gurior]

Hi,

I've been following the forums for about 2 years now, finding a great deal of answers during that time for pathfinder ruling that were not covered in the books. So thank you, to the community, for that.
End of new user introduction.

I'm DM'ing a game where one of my player's character (arcanist) got baleful polymorphed (BP) into a squirrel by a BBEG.

At the moment, the arcanist in question was several dozen feet up in the air (despite the close range of BP, the BBEG had a reach metamagic rod)

After failing its fortitude save, the group argued that since the character would be killed by the ensuing fall damage where he to change to a squirrel, he should be allowed the +4 on its saving throw, as :

"If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water, the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save."

I agreed with them.

Nonetheless, that was not enough to succed the save. However, then comes the will save, and my question is as follow :

Would the +4 bonus to the saving throw, in that case, applies to BOTH the Fort and will save, or just the Fort save ?

I would argue that it would just applies to the Fort save, because that's the save that changes you to "a form that can be fatal". That would be my guess at "rules as intended".

however, your interpretation of Rules as written my be different.

Any opinions ?

Thanks,
Gurior (new member !)

[Cap. Darling]

Was the arcanist falling at the time of the spell? Why would the polymorph make him Fall?

[Gurior]

No, the arcanist was under the effect of the fly spell (cast by himself).

If he were to fail the Fort save but not the Will save, the form would not be fatal since he could still control the fly spell and land harmlessly (I haven't thought about that).

Were he to fail both save, the 1 intelligence creature could not control the fly, and fall. Making the polymoprh indirectly fatal.

Edit : Although, thinking about was is indirectly fatal, almost any form is. One could argue that being changed into a toad in the middle of the battlefield would be fatal, since it would hamper your movement to flee the battlescene, and you would most likely get squashed.

Considering the spell made a very clear exemple of what is a fatal form (a fish out of water) I don't think these should count.

[Cap. Darling]

If a fly spell stop you have somthing like feather Fall for a few turns. So he mostlikely would not crash. And a fly spell is not somthing you need to control. You Can cast it on creatures no matter there int.

[Gurior]

I partially agree with that.

True, fly spell states that :

Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking

But I would still think that an animal intelligence creature would not understand what it is doing, and at best would flail uncontrollably in the air (unless trained specificly for flying (such as a trained horse), but that is getting beside the point)

However, since the fly spell allows you to descend at a maximum speed of 60 ft (AND has a "feather fall" safe guard in case it is dispelled), I agree that it would not be instanly dangerous.

The 1 intel squirrel woudl still panic, but not freefall. But flail around until the spell ends (then fall slowly).

[Ravingdork]

Cap. Darling wrote:

If a fly spell stop you have somthing like feather Fall for a few turns. So he mostlikely would not crash. And a fly spell is not somthing you need to control. You Can cast it on creatures no matter there int.

I remember reading somewhere that you needed to train a mount (sing one of its limited tricks known) in order to get it to benefit from the air walk spell. I don't see why fly would be any different.

A horse may be able to fly or air walk with magic, but it is not it has no instinctual inclination to even attempt it; thus it must be trained first.

Does anyone recall the source?

[Saldiven]

Well, was the fall definitely something that would be fatal, or merely something that would have caused damage from the fall?

[Gurior]

Saldiven wrote:

Well, was the fall definitely something that would be fatal, or merely something that would have caused damage from the fall?

The arcanist was ~600 hundred feet up.

So even were the 1d6 orund of feather fall included in fly were to kick in, the remaining fall would still definitly be fatal.

(altough one could argue that very small thing can fall any height without any damage because of square-cube law (mass / air resistance), like a wingless bug falling any height harmlessly, but pathfinder dosen't cover that, and I don't want to either. )

[Sissyl]

Sad part is, a squirrel would probably be one of the absolute best non avian forms to fall several hundred feet as. It is quite likely the squirrel would survive completely unscathed.

[Gurior]

Ravingdork wrote:

I remember reading somewhere that you needed to train a mount (sing one of its limited tricks known) in order to get it to benefit from the air walk spell. I don't see why fly would be any different.

A horse may be able to fly or air walk with magic, but it is not it has no instinctual inclination to even attempt it; thus it must be trained first.

Does anyone recall the source?

I remember that too, but can't find it.

Either way, point is that a normal squirrel couldn't fly (but might not fall immediatly), and an arcanist-intelligent squirrel can use the spell normally for the remaining duration.

[Saldiven]

Gurior wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

Well, was the fall definitely something that would be fatal, or merely something that would have caused damage from the fall?

The arcanist was ~600 hundred feet up.

So even were the 1d6 orund of feather fall included in fly were to kick in, the remaining fall would still definitly be fatal.

(altough one could argue that very small thing can fall any height without any damage because of square-cube law (mass / air resistance), like a wingless bug falling any height harmlessly, but pathfinder dosen't cover that, and I don't want to either. )

Ok, sorry. The OP said "several dozen feet" in the air. To me, that's like less than 100 feet up (around 4-8 dozen).

[Gurior]

Sissyl wrote:

Sad part is, a squirrel would probably be one of the absolute best non avian forms to fall several hundred feet as. It is quite likely the squirrel would survive completely unscathed.

Ah ! True that. This would have made a fair point, and could have saved the player's life, would it have come to that.

Anyway, thanks to the familiar of another character, the squirrel was caught mid-air, and is safe.

The question about the +4 to (either) saves still remains.

--> Sadiven

Yeah, sorry. I did not want the discussion to run to "wait, if he is so far up, how the hell was he in range of baleful polymorph?!" from the start, hnece the confusion.

[Anguish]

There's a slippery slope here.

Arguably, being changed from a form that can wield weapons, handle scrolls, potion bottles etc into a form that can't is going to be fatal. But you don't get the bonus to the save for that. The examples listed refer to being transformed into a form that can't live in the environment it is in. A squirrel can live mid-air.

Frankly if I had a fighter halfway up climbing a rope then turned into a turtle, I'd rule that the environment isn't inherently hostile to the turtle. No save bonus.

It's sort of the same as being turned into a turtle with a pathetic move speed while surrounded by predators. Yes, you're going to die. Yes, the transformation pretty much seals that deal. But you could live.

To answer your question, I think the save bonus only applies to the Fort save. If you actually change forms, you change forms. That may or may not be death-causing (because you can't breathe, for instance). The Will save is a secondary thing, and your form has already changed. Again, losing your "self" is going to get you killed. No bonus for you.

Addendum: the literally-is-a-squirrel-in-mind-and-body guy with fly doesn't die because of his new form isn't compatible with flying. If he dies, it's because he failed to think "down", which would be natural for any animal. FLYING, hard. LANDING... not so much.

[claudekennilol]

Ravingdork wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

If a fly spell stop you have somthing like feather Fall for a few turns. So he mostlikely would not crash. And a fly spell is not somthing you need to control. You Can cast it on creatures no matter there int.

I remember reading somewhere that you needed to train a mount (sing one of its limited tricks known) in order to get it to benefit from the air walk spell. I don't see why fly would be any different.

A horse may be able to fly or air walk with magic, but it is not it has no instinctual inclination to even attempt it; thus it must be trained first.

Does anyone recall the source?

The source is the Air Walk spell itself.

Air Walk wrote:

The subject can tread on air as if walking on solid ground. Moving upward is similar to walking up a hill. The maximum upward or downward angle possible is 45 degrees, at a rate equal to half the air walker's normal speed.

A strong wind (21+ miles per hour) can push the subject along or hold it back. At the end of a creature's turn each round, the wind blows the air walker 5 feet for each 5 miles per hour of wind speed. The creature may be subject to additional penalties in exceptionally strong or turbulent winds, such as loss of control over movement or physical damage from being buffeted about.

Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends in this way if the air walk spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field.

You can cast air walk on a specially trained mount so it can be ridden through the air. You can train a mount to move with the aid of air walk (counts as a trick; see Handle Animal skill) with 1 week of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check.

The difference, though, is that Air Walk says it's needed for the mount to be able to effectively use it and Fly doesn't.

One grants a fly speed, the other grants your normal ground speed to just move through the air rather than being stuck to the fly rules.

[Gurior]

Anguish wrote:

There's a slippery slope here.

Arguably, being changed from a form that can wield weapons, handle scrolls, potion bottles etc into a form that can't is going to be fatal. But you don't get the bonus to the save for that. The examples listed refer to being transformed into a form that can't live in the environment it is in. A squirrel can live mid-air.

Frankly if I had a fighter halfway up climbing a rope then turned into a turtle, I'd rule that the environment isn't inherently hostile to the turtle. No save bonus.

It's sort of the same as being turned into a turtle with a pathetic move speed while surrounded by predators. Yes, you're going to die. Yes, the transformation pretty much seals that deal. But you could live.

To answer your question, I think the save bonus only applies to the Fort save. If you actually change forms, you change forms. That may or may not be death-causing (because you can't breathe, for instance). The Will save is a secondary thing, and your form has already changed. Again, losing your "self" is going to get you killed. No bonus for you.

Addendum: the literally-is-a-squirrel-in-mind-and-body guy with fly doesn't die because of his new form isn't compatible with flying. If he dies, it's because he failed to think "down", which would be natural for any animal. FLYING, hard. LANDING... not so much.

Thanks a lot for the answer, it really covers up the whole discussion.

plus, reading baleful polymorph :

As beast shape III, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD. If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water, the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save.

If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, [...]

One MIGHT argue that the phrasing suggest that the +4 bonus does refer only to the Fort save, and then the will save is discussed later on. I kinda stand behind that interpretation, where the part about the form being fatal applies ony on the fort save.

Thanks a lot.

I think i will show this to my players now, so that they can understand why I choose to (in the end) make the player fail its will save (the +4 was actually making the difference between fail and success).

[ryric]

Yeah I think the +4 is really meant to be for "fish in the desert" level situations where death is environmentally certain due to things like being unable to breathe, extreme heat or cold, that sort of thing.

The Will save is really the one you want your target to fail. Depending on their class, being turned into a animal per beast shape isn't even all that much of a debuff.

-Has memories of a sparrow assassin still death attacking party members, and of a turtle monk still having a move in the 50s with a crazy AC.

[Weirdo]

A non-flying creature unsupported in midair is about as environmentally doomed as a fish out of water - it could survive, but so could the fish. A good rule of thumb, IMO, is whether the creature is doomed in absence of action from any nearby creatures. Being turned into a fish in a desert, an iguana in the arctic, or a squirrel in midair - yes. Being turned into one of these things in the middle of a bunch of predators or enemies - no.

I would allow the squirrel to control the Fly spell at least well enough to land safely. Not only does Fly not contain the rule in Air Walk about animals needing training, but that rule simply establishes that an animal needs training to Air Walk confidently enough to be used as a mount.

I would probably not allow a +4 bonus to the Fort save if magic that negates the environmental doom is present (such as the Fly spell on the squirrel). It feels a bit meta, but then again so does the bonus on the save if it's a hostile environment to your new form.

I agree the +4 applies to the Fort save only.