I'm working on a half-orc oracle 1/paladin x for my next campaign. I have three feats set aside for Selective Channeling (5th), Greater Mercy (7th), and Ultimate Mercy (9th) because of group needs, but the rest of my feats are fairly open. We already have a couple of front-liners, so I'm looking at setting up for reach combat (flavorfully appropriate as well since I'm a paladin of Shelyn fighting with a glaive or possibly glaive-guisarme).
I've seen a few threads concerning tactics (and quite excellent ones; tip of the hat to you, Magda), but none that discuss feat selection much. The only one I know for sure is Power Attack, which I'm planning on taking at 3rd level (I don't have +1 BAB at first level). What are the 3-4 best feats besides Power Attack to take when looking at reach combat? Is there anything else I can get (traits, weapon enhancements, etc.) that will be highly useful?
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Combat reflexes, lunge, pushing assault.
Combat reflexes is obvious, but the other two are involved in keeping enemies in a 'sweet spot' 15' away from you.
You see, when you normally attack with reach, the enemy ends up 10' away. That means that the enemy only need a 5' step to reach you- you get no AoO, and they get their full attack. If you attack first, you will not get an AoO against that enemy.
With lunge, you attack and the enemy is 15' away. That means the enemy will most likely have to move 10' to reach you, which means they draw an AoO and they lose their full attack. That is offense and defense in one. You can attack first and still get an AoO.
Pushing assault has similar advantages. When an enemy gets right next to you, you can take a 5' step back, full attack, and use pushing assault. That pushes the enemy back 5', and that leaves them at the 15' mark. You are thus set up for more AoOs.
Another advantage of lunge though is that you can full attack anything in a 45' wide circle. Nice for full attacks.
For weapon enhancements- get a fortuitous weapon. This is the perfect item for a reach build. 1/turn, this +1 enhancement lets you get in an extra AoO for the same action, except it is at BAB-5. That basically lets you get in a small full attack through AoOs, all for a single action from the enemy. That makes crossing your threatened area a very serious matter for any enemy. You are thus a true 25' wide circle of pain that serves as a living obstacle. It also makes those keep away tactics above all the sweeter (in a 1 on 1, in the best conditions, you can get 6 attacks to the enemy's 1 as you play with reach).
Thanks! :) Couple of things:
1) Am I going to suffer too much for not being able to end up with Lunge and Pushing Assault until level 13?
2) How important is it to have some way to threaten the area immediately around me? I know that if I'm doing my job right no one will end up there, but how much trouble should I put into that contingency?
2a) If it's worth it, I was considering Catch Off-Guard if I could find room for it to be able to use the butt/pole of the glaive as an improvised weapon in order to threaten adjacent. My GM is fairly open to personalizing things as long as it's not game-breaking, so I was thinking of including that feat as part of a custom archetype.
3) How worth it will it be to attempt to include trips/disarms/other maneuvers as AoOs given the right foes? I know it's only useful against the right enemies, which is why I don't want to try to feat into not provoking, but is it even worth the trouble at all or should I just stick to damage?
This is only my second campaign and my first campaign was as a life oracle heal-bot/buffer, so I'm still figuring out the physical stuff. Thanks!
1) Ok, perfect.
2) I knew Power Attack was the absolutely required one. Wish I could pick it up at first level, but it just makes more sense fluff-wise to go Oracle first.
3) Oradin light - just the one level to be able to use life link with fast healing for out of combat top offs. I'm taking the between-fight topping off and the channeling and our skald is going for the single target heals as necessary, hugging the bloodrager that's gonna be the one most likely needing big single target in-combat heals. I'm playing straight life oracle this round, and the life link/fast healing combo is just too good to pass up, especially since it only requires one level of oracle and it works fantastically story wise for my character.
Combat Reflexes is necessary. Lunge is about as close to necessary as you can get in a pure "reach" build.1) armor spikes = threat around you.
2) reflexes and lunge are nice but not needed. you need power attack.
3) are you going Oradin build?
I'm thinking -
1: Combat Reflexes3: Power Attack
5: Selective Channeling
7: Greater Mercy
9: Ultimate Mercy
11: Lunge
13: Pushing Assault
...
I want to do as much as I can with reach, but I do need to keep the level 5-9 feats. So it's not a "pure reach" build. Is it going to be too hindering to not get Lunge until 11? We will have a couple of other melees to make trouble as well.
don't forget about improved trip. at reach, with pc frontliner friends, you can really debuff the enemies. your friends will love you as they're swinging at -4ac prone enemies and taking aoo when they stand up. increase attacks a round with aoos and combat reflexes.
furious focus feat negates power attack minus on first attack
pushing assault great since you do damage and reposistion enemy away and aoo when they come back at you
fury's fall lets you add dex mod on trip attack cmb
heirloom weapon trait gives +2 to a cmb attack(choice one)
temple guard trait gives +1 on aoo with polearms
bred for war flat +1 cmb all kinds must be 6'0 tall(er)
Combat Reflexes is necessary. Lunge is about as close to necessary as you can get in a pure "reach" build.1) armor spikes = threat around you.
2) reflexes and lunge are nice but not needed. you need power attack.
3) are you going Oradin build?
I'm thinking -
1: Combat Reflexes
3: Power Attack
5: Selective Channeling
7: Greater Mercy
9: Ultimate Mercy
11: Lunge
13: Pushing Assault
...I want to do as much as I can with reach, but I do need to keep the level 5-9 feats. So it's not a "pure reach" build. Is it going to be too hindering to not get Lunge until 11? We will have a couple of other melees to make trouble as well.
Possibly not. You are a 2 handed paladin, so your damage will be fine for early to mid levels. Introducing lunge at that level lets you further improve your damage as the 'linear warrior/quadratic caster' trope begins to come into effect.
It is more immediately important for classes like fighter whose main gimmick is getting hits in and using tricks. You have lay on hands and such as tricks to make yourself a tank, so you have enough going on to make up for the delay.
Instead of, or in addition to, Lunge you could invest some skill ranks into UMD and pick up a wand of Long Arm.
Hadn't thought of that - I think our skald's actually going into some UMD. I may have to throw one his way if I can't spare the skill points.
Edit: we have an alchemist. Yay free Brew Potion feat! :D
It is more immediately important for classes like fighter whose main gimmick is getting hits in and using tricks. You have lay on hands and such as tricks to make yourself a tank, so you have enough going on to make up for the delay.
Yeah, I've got channeling, out of combat healing, and limited resurrections too - maybe I can get away with being a good enough reach fighter rather than the perfect reach fighter. :) Thanks y'all!
Channel Energy is standard action and your Life Link from the one level Oracle dip is also standard action. This means you'll be doing one or the other, not both in a given round.
Selective Channeling assumes you're going to channel within combat. I'd drop Selective Channeling and just plan for Life Link as your in-combat standard action healing. Dropping it would allow you to get Toughness or move the Lunge feat to earlier in the build.
Life link only takes a standard action to initiate, not to maintain. So I can have life link active before the fight even starts and have it basically running in the background on the most vulnerable party member. (That's one of the main features of life link, that it's passive background healing. Switching the link around in combat is not a very efficient use of it, considering it only heals five points at a time. That'd be the equivalent of doing nothing but casting CL1 cure light wounds your entire campaign.) It'll mostly be for switching from person to person after the fight, taking their damage and using fast healing to top myself off, then putting it back on the most vulnerable.
Channeling in combat's the main reason I'm worrying about having channeling - we have a skald who will be making liberal use of cure spells and wands, so he'll be doing a lot of the in-combat healing if we need it, but having in-combat channeling available is good for that moment of "oh $*!%, there was a dragon around the corner and we were stacked up for the fire breath".
(It's also due a fair amount to a group member VERY attached to the highly traditional fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric paradigm. We're straying far enough from his comfort zone splitting divine and arcane duties between a paladin, a skald, and an alchemist. I think going without channeling might make him cry.)
If he has infusions and the Longarm formula, maybe you can sweet talk him into handing you a Longarm infusion before a combat.Instead of, or in addition to, Lunge you could invest some skill ranks into UMD and pick up a wand of Long Arm.Hadn't thought of that - I think our skald's actually going into some UMD. I may have to throw one his way if I can't spare the skill points.
Edit: we have an alchemist. Yay free Brew Potion feat! :D
Indeed, although I'd be ok with potions if he doesn't take the infusion discovery. I don't know what his plans are with discoveries, and a potion I can keep on hand just in case. :)
|
I completely agree with all the advice people gave. Thanks for the 'hat tip' :-)
Regarding the guy stuck on the obsolete 'traditional fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric paradigm', perhaps point him to The Forge of Combat.
Edit: Please remember that this Paladin character is extremely feat-starved. There's barely room for the essentials, and no room at all for extras or feat chains.
I completely agree with all the advice people gave. Thanks for the 'hat tip' :-)
Regarding the guy stuck on the obsolete 'traditional fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric paradigm', perhaps point him to The Forge of Combat.
Eh, we just roll with it. He's been playing since first edition, so he's pretty set in his ways by now. We work on showing him and changing his mind gradually rather than just throwing him more things to read. :)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would not bother with combat maneuver feats since with reach you can normally perform them without provoking AoO, and +2 to trip isn't worth two feats.
I'm playing a reach Bloodrager 6 / Monk (Master of Many Styles) 2. I've been doing fine without Lunge, I didn't get access to Longarm until level 6, and I don't always get Longarm cast. The extra 5ft of reach is very nice but I deal plenty of damage without.
One thing to keep in mind is that if you make it too painful for your opponent to approach you, they might turn their attention to your allies, which is not great if you're the party tank. However, 15ft reach also makes it harder for your opponent to get away - especially if you threaten at 5ft, which I do, making it impossible for someone 10ft away to 5ft step outside my threatened area. As a tank, my main use of reach is not to keep people away from me for maximum AoO, but to make it harder for enemies to sneak around me to the squishies, and to harass casters and ranged combatants. This may not be an optimal use of reach, but like you I'm not investing much into it and I'm OK with that.
Note Longarm has a big advantage on Lunge: you get the increased reach outside of your turn so that if someone provokes an AoO 15ft away you can take it. Managed to disrupt an unwary spellcaster that way a few sessions ago.
|
|
Eh, we just roll with it. He's been playing since first edition, so he's pretty set in his ways by now. We work on showing him and changing his mind gradually rather than just throwing him more things to read. :)I completely agree with all the advice people gave. Thanks for the 'hat tip' :-)
Regarding the guy stuck on the obsolete 'traditional fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric paradigm', perhaps point him to The Forge of Combat.
I started with the Basic Set in 1977. I was stuck in the same paradigm. The essay I linked to caused me to undergo a paradigm shift.
I started with the Basic Set in 1977. I was stuck in the same paradigm. The essay I linked to caused me to undergo a paradigm shift.Eh, we just roll with it. He's been playing since first edition, so he's pretty set in his ways by now. We work on showing him and changing his mind gradually rather than just throwing him more things to read. :)I completely agree with all the advice people gave. Thanks for the 'hat tip' :-)
Regarding the guy stuck on the obsolete 'traditional fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric paradigm', perhaps point him to The Forge of Combat.
Another grognard chiming in. I started in 1980. I'd been moving toward the battlefield control/"god wizard" mindset for years and that essay helped further break the roles down.
The soft sell is definitely good for the resistant, though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As feat starved as you are, I would throw out Selective Channeling. It sounds like you'll rarely be channeling in combat anyway, and denying that 14 HP to the dragon one time is not really worth a feat.