Hero of Valhalla

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Shifting their alignment will give you a good opportunity to see which players don't care about alignment and which ones don't.

Shifting everyone toward chaotic is more than fair. Up to you where they land on the good/evil axis. It's possible they are doing all this murder for a noble purpose but as the GM you know much more about their motivations.

Good luck!

Val'bryn2 wrote:
How, exactly, were they supposed to discover it?

They were supposed to observe her aiding them in the fight against the marauding barbarian, like he said. Unfortunately, the players ruined that by murdering a complete stranger for no reason.

There are actually a variety of ways the PCs can use skills to do investigation. Knowledge Local or Religion would have been smart.

You seem to really want to throw this GM under the bus for writing a very interesting story and then having it ruined because his PCs keep murdering all the interesting NPCs. Sometimes role-playing games require role-playing.

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Pretty par for the course as far as 4tg level spells go.
Death Ward renders you immune to negative energy and energy drain.
Dim Anchor just shuts down teleporters.
Planar Adaptation exempts you from needing to breathe and all sorts of other effects.

4th level spells are super good.

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I like the illusionist idea. A gnome illusionist with a bird school familiar who makes his artistry persist as long as possible.

Maybe a cleric pulling in a Lillend from time to time with planar ally...

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Val'bryn2 wrote:
Additionally, people keep bringing up her being an old lady as if that meant she was less of a threat, she's a cleric, those extra years directly increased her power as a caster. She was at minimum 9th level, she was by no standards just a feeble grandmother type.

It doesn't matter how powerful she was. It doesn't matter what her alignment was, or what you think her alignment should be. What you think she should have done doesn't matter either. Here's what matters to the PC alignment question:

1. The PCs see a person walking around.
2. The PCs witness no wrongdoing at all.
3. The PCs ASSUME she is evil.
4. The PCs plan and execute her murder.

It doesn't matter what she was. It doesn't matter if the PCs know she is good or not. The PCs are executing people without evidence or cause. These conclusions follow:

A. The PCs are murderers.
B. The PCs are chaotic something.

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There is a MASSIVE double standard being applied here. On the one hand, we have a person walking around watching someone kill innocent people. On the other hand, we have a person who murders an innocent person. And many here seem to be hung up on the watcher's inaction while absolving the murderer.

The PCs saw a person walking. She was near a BAD GUY. The PCs planned and executed that person's murder. The PCs are murderers.

Kifaru you did nothing wrong. If your PCs feel empowered to kill anyone they have a bad feeling about, without doing any research or recon, that's up to them. They didn't research, they didn't recon, they didn't even check her holy symbol, they went straight from suspicion to murder.

This is an extremely CHAOTIC act and their alignments should shift accordingly. They were not manipulated or coerced into this murder, they chose it themselves.

Shift their alignments and make that sword burn a little. Definitely don't reward this with a level in Paladin (whose major drawback is that you're not supposed to go around murdering random people).

I would have the local Abadarians put up wanted posters with their pictures saying they are suspected brigands who accost travelers on the road.

Regardless of the clerics alignment, or action/inaction, they murdered an old woman who had done nothing at all. You need to impose consequences or just throw alignment out the window.

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I had a young player who loved playing evil. He built a CE rogue and not only fleeced the PCs but also would hang back in combat and then start looting enemies as his other party members dropped them. The other players were frustrated, and told me, but I told them it was an in game problem and they should come to an in game solution.

So one evening they set up camp and the rogue flat out says "I don't feel like taking a watch" leaving the wizard and the fighters to do it. So... everyone went to sleep but the fighter on watch, and after an hour he woke up the other two and said "This guy is useless, let's leave him."

They pulled up stakes and left the rogue in his tent, alone in the woods. I had drawn up an encounter with a feral druid who asked that they pay a toll to travel through her forest. The three tough-looking PCs managed to negotiate and avoided the combat for a pittance. The rogue woke up well after dawn, found everyone had left, ran into the druid and her raptor animal companion, who took every last penny the rogue had fleeced off of his comrades.

The player drew up another character and, though he still roleplays a selfish jerk, now makes sure he is actually helping the party and not harming it.

Two! You can either use your claw attacks (d4) or you can use your flurry of blows class feature to make two unarmed strikes (d6), but take a -2 on both attacks.

As for your build, Irori is probably your friend. If you want to be a good punchy guy, Cleric of Irori with the Crusader archetype and the Strength(Fist) domain is a good start. If you want some really neat tricks go Divine Paragon archetype and you'll end up with the Deific Boons of Irori.

N N 959 wrote:
Decision making is the cornerstone on which RPGs are built, once you remove the dice.

And players make decisions based on the information their characters are given, which is often limited.

N N 959 wrote:
In this situation, the GM is creating a situation where players are compelled to fight i.e. no real choice. Then, s/he will tell them the victims of their attacks are refugees from some greater evil and s/he specifically asks if "how much of a jerk would I be for this?" The only reason to ask this question is if s/he already suspects its a dick move.

But as you've correctly pointed out, there isn't a moral dilemma during the 'compelled to fight' phase so it's not a 'dick move.'

The interesting roleplaying comes after the PCs talk to the refugees and discover their plight. That's when we get to see if the players' moral compass induces their characters to change their behavior given more knowledge.

By meting out knowledge slowly, the GM is able to introduce moral dilemmas later in the game. I love it. I want to play this game right now.

As a GM, if I say "You see eight guards," there are definitely more than eight guards. Your character was mistaken. Humans all look the same to him anyway.

Also, leaving the prison and coming back a month later you should expect things to be different. Maybe the 8 guards all leveled up and took the Leadership feat? Permanent Mirror Image? Major Illusion?

You left, you came back, things were different. Make a new plan.
You paid off the guards once, why not pay them off again?

The thing I love about Shelyn is that she's opposed to killing anyone who could be redeemed, and also believes that EVERYONE can be redeemed.

You made the right choice, that was a stupid evil plan. While it would make sense for your cleric to distrust the other party members from here on out, it's also possible for him to work tirelessly for their conversion. I mean, you just saved a cannibal and more importantly saved your party from going down the road to Rovagug. Why go sit at a temple painting things when you could be slowly making them see the majestic beauty of the Eternal Rose?

This still makes you an outsider to the party and they'll still probably do evil stuff, but you can be the moral compass if the group here.

Ranger is not a bad choice for your background. You could go traditional ranger and have a standoffish Tiefling with a super friendly dog and use that as your primary connection to the party. But I think you should consider the Guide archetype (APG). It trades favored enemy for a bonus against a single target but would let you use it for big game or your vengeance pact. Also it trades animal companion for an ability to help your party in a specific terrain. Thematically, it let's you boss everyone around when they are stomping through the forest.

Good luck!

Alternatively, I believe Blindness/Deafness is a necromancy spell.

I played a blind paladin once rather successfully. The paladin's mount was extremely helpful. I would recommend taking a familiar who can see, or just buying a horse and taking ride. Even if they can't talk they will naturally avoid difficult terrain and dangerous obstacles.

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Take Animate Dead. Pump up your Stealth and your Bluff. Lie to the Paladin. What he don't know can't hurt him.

Always lie to the paladin.

Proley wrote:

Thus, we count Paladins among the roster of LG Deities' tools. The same applies to AntiPaladins in the CE Deities' toolbox.

Why wouldn't CG, NG, NN, LN, CN, NE deities want an equivalent tool?

If the military can deploy anti-personnel mines against their enemies, why can't the Podunck Co. Sheriff's department have them, too? Wouldn't they want an equivalent tool?

Neutral deities (and characters) don't view a paladin as a "useful tool." They see them as stuck-up, self-righteous clowns who lord their religiosity over everyone they meet. Or worse, cops.

"Please, Gorum, grant me the ability to touch others and make them not so tired."
"Please, Gorum, make my sword glow with holy goodness."
"Gorum, why aren't you answering my prayers!?"

Neutral deities are neutral, they don't like picking winners and smiting losers. Chaotic deities don't like people following their code of specific behavior because they think codes of specific behavior are stupid and shortsighted. These gods have plenty of holy champions (Inquisitors, Warpriests, Clerics), they don't need sword lawyers.

Sounds like a good place for a Haunt. The Betrayal haunt would be nice, considering there was probably confusion and stabbing amongst the dwarves in the temple at some point. That lingering confusion hits all of your players at once and they begin wildly lashing out at each other...

VoodistMonk wrote:
The whole interaction takes two minutes and the city is behind you...

I guess I just like my roleplaying games to have a little, you know, roleplaying.

And absolutely I like roleplaying a crowded marketplace. I always think it's strange when a GM offers a single Magic Big Box with every conceivable item for book cost.

The paladin at a minimum should have done the following
(A) USE DETECT EVIL to determine if there is any credence to what the villagers said.
(B) Follow up - Make sure obviously evil guy doesn't do evil.

(Of course, the best way to ensure this is to let the community impose the law on him, but I guess pinky swearing that you won't summon a bone devil to wipe the town is ok.)
Paladin probably should have gotten him to write it down, as those Asmodeans love their contracts.

First, remember this is a Roleplaying Game. If players say "I make a diplomacy check," just say no. Players need to interact, in character, with the NPCs. Generally, one of the players will dominate the conversation, and that's who YOU, the GM, get to tell to roll diplomacy. If another PC is helpful you could grant him the ability to aid, but in general, just say no.

Just because there is an elf bard at the table doesn't mean they will be making all the checks. Sometimes the orc barbarian inserts her opinion and spoils the whole thing. That means the GM can impose a penalty to diplomacy or simply deny the PCs a chance to peacefully resolve the situation.

TPK wrote:
Can't get hit if you are not seen... But, you are quite correct and defense is paramount to surviving the crazy life of an adventurer.

Only by that one spell. What was it? Oh yeah, fireball. Pretty rare, though. Most GMs don't know that one.

That's a great tradeoff... if you don't care about being an effective caster.

Korthis wrote:
Again, if I go out caster what do I do when I run out of spells?

The same thing we all do. Pull out your wand of magic missile and tell your party you're done adventuring for the day.

The dual caster role just doesn't have room to spend levels and feats on melee.

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If you want to compete with the other 4 characters in melee, then be honest with your party and tell them you plan on being bad at spellcasting.

If instead you want to be the sole magic user in the party, then own it. Don't sully yourself by picking up a weapon, you have MAGIC! Lord it over them constantly and make sure all of your feats have the word "Spell" in them.

Obscuring Mist is pretty handy when dealing with ranged attacks / magic. Harder to see through than Vanish and can protect your whole party.

Silent Image does all that and more.

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As feat starved as you are, I would throw out Selective Channeling. It sounds like you'll rarely be channeling in combat anyway, and denying that 14 HP to the dragon one time is not really worth a feat.