So, i am playing a Wrath of the Righteous game and am set on playing a paladin, i really like the idea of a Sword and Board pally but i don't know how i could build it effectively, i have looked on a few guides but not seen much about it, so i am requesting advice on how to make this work. I am hoping to make him an effective melee combatant using a longsword and a shield.
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When you say sword and board, you have a choice to make. Do you mean you want to be two weapon fighting or you just want to have a shield? If you just want to have a shield, it's easy; build like any other melee paladin. You are strictly trading some offense (loss of two handed 1.5 str and power attack damage) for a rather large increase to defense (up to +7 with a fully enchanted shield). That's not a particularly bad option for the Paladin as you have Smite to make up for that; if you wanted to have the best of both worlds you could use a buckler or quickDraw shield. With the buckler, you would be able to still choose to two hand your weapon if necessary, but you would take a -1 to hit and lose your shield bonus for that turn. If you went with the quickdraw shield and took the feat Quickdraw, you would literally have all the benefits of using a shield and fighting with a two hander as on your turn you could free action put the shield away, go two handed to attack, and then pull the shield back out for the increased AC now that it is no longer your turn.
Two weapon fighting on the other hand is iffy. You'll need at least 15 dex and it is feat intensive... and Paladins don't get bonus feats. You'll also NEED Improved Shield Bash and maybe want some of the others. Shield Master is a very nice feat as well, but isn't available until level 11.
Traits: one campaign (divine child? You end up being a child of Iomadae), one Fey Foundling. Boosts your Lay On Hands.
I'm not sure on the feats. Since it's too feat intensive, you don't want Shield Master. IMproved Shield Bash and TWF are probably all you need, MAYBE shield slam. But they eat up feats.
You will probably want Weapon Focus (longsword) for thematics, and Power Attack absolutely at level 3.
Most Paladin stuff focuses on getting Unsanctioned Knowledge, Extra Mercies, Extra Lay on Hands, or Extra Smites.
Are you taking an Archetype? The Smite-happy Oath of Vengeance works REALLY well in WotR.
If you're doing the standard array of 16 14 13 12 10 8
Do Str: 16 I:10 Wis:8 Dex: 12 Con: 13 Cha:14
If you can wrangle another point, put it into Con. Wis is your dump stat. Str is your prime stat, Cha #2.
I'm sure there's a more thorough default build.
Your goals as a shield user is to get a quick draw shield, so that you can sling it back and go 2handed when you don't have to worry about your defense, whipping it back forwards when you want the AC. At later levels, you will shield bash when its suitable, probably when you are smiting to really heap the smite damage on something.
Don't go full TWF, it's too feat intensive and the rewards aren't worth the cost. You won't get the feat until you get a +4 Dex booster, anyways.
As for Mythic feats...ugh. Not an expert. Mythic Vital Strike for certain.
==Aelryinth
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This is my Wrath of the Righteous sword and board paladin.
Not the typical build.....
Do you mean using your shield as a defensive item, or as another weapon?
i was planning on using it as a defensive item, with the offence coming from the longsword (i know that i will be getting a special sword in the campaign), also, any ideas for what to do with my mythic abilities would be cool, so far the only ideas i had was to take Dual Path and go Guardian//Marshal for the cool abilities both get, taking Loyalty at tier 1
This is my Wrath of the Righteous sword and board paladin.
Not the typical build.....
?
Do you mean using your shield as a defensive item, or as another weapon?i was planning on using it as a defensive item, with the offence coming from the longsword (i know that i will be getting a special sword in the campaign), also, any ideas for what to do with my mythic abilities would be cool, so far the only ideas i had was to take Dual Path and go Guardian//Marshal for the cool abilities both get, taking Loyalty at tier 1
Don't go for all the cool abilities. You are limited in what you can attain.
Stick with one path, you don't have the feats to burn on tons of extra stuff. Guardian is probably the path best designed for you, although Champion can work okay as well.
==Aelryinth
If you are going Mythic then your feat selection just got a lot easier as you know for a fact that your 7th and 11th feats are going to be Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike. Also take Mythic Vital Strike. That is all the offense you will ever need.
Traits: one campaign (divine child? You end up being a child of Iomadae), one Fey Foundling. Boosts your Lay On Hands.
I'm not sure on the feats. Since it's too feat intensive, you don't want Shield Master. IMproved Shield Bash and TWF are probably all you need, MAYBE shield slam. But they eat up feats.
I was hoping to get an AC bonus rather than go shield bashing (since i do not believe you can do both)
You will probably want Weapon Focus (longsword) for thematics, and Power Attack absolutely at level 3.
Sounds fine to me
Most Paladin stuff focuses on getting Unsanctioned Knowledge, Extra Mercies, Extra Lay on Hands, or Extra Smites.
I was considering Unsanctioned Knowledge, as well as maybe Extra Smite
Are you taking an Archetype? The Smite-happy Oath of Vengeance works REALLY well in WotR.
I was planning on taking Sword of Valor, as well as possibly Oath against Fiends.
If you're doing the standard array of 16 14 13 12 10 8
Do Str: 16 I:10 Wis:8 Dex: 12 Con: 13 Cha:14
If you can wrangle another point, put it into Con. Wis is your dump stat. Str is your prime stat, Cha #2.
We got to roll twice for stats, i can choose between
11 15 14 14 16 15
Or
16 13 13 12 13 16
I'm sure there's a more thorough default build.
Your goals as a shield user is to get a quick draw shield, so that you can sling it back and go 2handed when you don't have to worry about your defense, whipping it back forwards when you want the AC. At later levels, you will shield bash when its suitable, probably when you are smiting to really heap the smite damage on something.
Don't go full TWF, it's too feat intensive and the rewards aren't worth the cost. You won't get the feat until you get a +4 Dex booster, anyways.
As for Mythic feats...ugh. Not an expert. Mythic Vital Strike for certain.
==Aelryinth
Thanks for the advice, alot of it was pretty helpful! :)
I made a Human Paladin with
1. Power Attack
H. Fey Foundling
3. Extra Lay on Hands
5. Mystic Healer (3pp feat that grants scaling increase to healing)
7. Selective Channeling
9. Quicken Channeling
that was really fun. Used longsword and shield, and eventually got a magical longsword of humility, which was +2 merciful, I think.
I was good at melee and excellent at healing, and I had a good AC and Saves. 15 point buy, so 14 14 12 10 10 16. Really bad at athletic stuff, ironically enough, due to armor and stuff.
If you want to keep your shield bonus to AC while shield bashing them improved Shield Bash is the way to go.
Using a weapon in two hands does more damage than wielding it one handed, so I suggest not getting a shield or going all the way into Shield Master. It saves you money on a second weapon, and you get to ignore the TWF penalty with the shield hand.
Yes, it is feat intensive, but it can be done
This is the better stat line--> 11 15 14 14 16 15
Honestly due to your rolled stats it makes TWF'ing not a good idea, but having a shield without going TWF is also not optimal.
str 17( racial bonus)
dex 15
con14
int11
wis 14
cha 16
TWF and improved TWF are the only TWF feats you will need for a while.
Then you need 3 shield feats, in addition to any other feats you want.
If you want you can dip into fighter for one or two levels to get additional feats, but that is up to you. Due to the nature of TWF, and non-TWF sword and board you are in a difficult position either way.
This has been said without taking mythic into account. In that case you can likely go sword and board without TWF or the shield feats, and still put out enough damage to matter.
Darn, I had hoped sword and board was a fun way to say long weekend rpg sleepover marathon!
If you want to two-hand your longsword and still use a shield, just pick up the Quick Draw feat and use a quickdraw light shield. When you're attacking the shield is off; when defending or making AoO's the shield is on. It might seem a little cheesy, but it's completely straightforward by the rules, and fluidly switching between one hand and two on a sword while one arm has a reasonably light shield on it was a common tactic.
There are some interesting ways to do TWF with sword and unarmed strike while using a heavy shield (it's a punch with a shield strapped to it...?). At the most basic you just take one level of TWF and make one 1.5xSTR Dragon Style offhand per round while using a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes. It's not all that powerful per se, but when Smite kicks in any extra attacks really start to cash in.
You can also do all sorts of crazy stuff with this tactic and a level of "Kata Master of Many Styles" Monk, like fighting with a temple sword and unarmed strikes while carrying a heavy shield, and using Opportune Parry and Riposte plus Snake Style/Fang to mount a really powerful defense and then go berserk with counterattacks.
Paladin is one of the few classes that can do sword and board without TWF well (the other being the Swashbuckler/Daring Champion) since their biggest boost to damage is divorced from their strength score. It still isn't optimal, but it is viable.
You're going to be relying heavily on Smite to keep your DPR up, so I'd recommend taking the Oath of Vengeance to squeeze out as many uses per day as possible.
Also, with as few spoilers as I can manage, I can tell you that Oath Against Fiends will be EXTREMELY obstructive in Wrath of the Righteous, as backwards as that may sound.
Going to +1 quick draw and quickdraw light shield. For one feat and the difference if damage between a greatsword and your longsword, you add a non-negligible boost to your ac and can get some nice extra enchants put on it.
I would throw out the shield and get a great sword. That way you wont have problems with laying on hands and casting spells in combat. You will do more damage, and if you save some feats on the Trade paladins have Nice feat options and a little bit of bow is nice as well.
Edit: i would Pick the stat Line with the two 16 and go Versatile human with 18 in str and cha from the start. 11 would go in wis and the others could go where they wanted since they are all +2. All stat increases to str power attack at level 1 and that is a finished build. Yes you get more feats and stuff but they are just icing, high str good Bab, power attack and paladin stuff will carry the Day.
You don't actually need quick draw to use a quick draw shield.
Wis is a dump stat for paladins, who have Cha to all saves and a Good will save.
str 17( racial bonus)
dex 15
con14
int11
wis 14
cha 16
Should instead be Int 14 and Wis 11. 2 more skill points is manna from heaven for a paladin.
Also, don't dismiss the utility of picking up at least ONE of the magic item creation feats! (probably arms and armor). If you want something to do in downtime, those feats are custom made for it. Defiant(evil outsiders) and Guardian on your shield and armor can send your AC or saves soaring.
The two most important stats for you to raise as you level are 1) Str and 2) Charisma.
You've got the Dex 15, so you can get TWF if you want. Improved Shield Bash lets you bash without losing shield AC.
==Aelryinth
Quickdraw shields still eat your swift actions, which means if you're trying to free up a hand to swift action Lay On Hands, you're still tanking your action economy.
If you like the idea of the shield bash, go for it, but mechanically I don't see a ton of good reasons for it.
If you're not bent on bashing with the shield, use a buckler and then you can Lay On Hands, cast spells and two-hand at the mere cost of all your shield AC. Okay, it's not ideal, but it costs you nothing in terms of feats.
Get as many skill points you need for the skills you want to have. It depends on the rest of your party, but if you're teamed with an int caster and a skill monkey, the only job for you to cover is Diplomacy, which will be important for someone to cover. If you're not taking a Mount for your Divine Bond, that's 2 more skills you can tank. Really, you can get away with two points/level for diplo and perception.
I'd favor Champion over Guardian myself, given that you're already going to have heightened defenses from using a shield. It's important that you have at least some punch to complement your piles of defenses. Many of the best parts of Guardian can be found in Champion as well, and unless you're taking a Paladin Mount, you're going to miss some of the most interesting bits of Guardian.
Oath of Fiends trades charm immune (your saves are sick anyway, right?) and a mercy (meh) for some mediocre armor enhancing abilities and an anti-teleport aura that ranges from meh to pretty good depending on your charisma. If the party wants break your oath somewhere, don't be afraid to break your oath and get an Atonement. It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. I don't think it's a slam drunk, but I don't think it's a trap either. Oath of Vengeance is still amazing.
No, Oath Against Fiends is specifically bad for Wrath of the Righteous, not even getting into the mechanical aspects of the Oath. You will be required by the story to break it frequently, far more than is reasonable for someone playing a Paladin.
Good catch, my response was in reply to the guy saying you don't need Quickdraw to use quickdraw shields.
I find it kind of surprising that the Quick Draw + quickdraw shield thing isn't more common, given that for a feat you essentially get to go two-handed with a shield. You can even have a character who takes one level of Sohei and uses flurry of blows with a two-handed temple sword while wearing a mithral medium armor and using a quickdraw shield.
Personally, I'd go scimitar (eventually impact) and light quickdraw shield (eventually bashing mithral) for a sword and board paladin. The scimitar is just so much better than longsword from 4th level (when you can cast blessed weapon to auto-confirm criticals against evil foes); and especially once you get past 8th and can take Improved Critical.
With the 11 15 14 14 16 15 rolls:
Human
17 Str (+2 race), 15 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, 11 Wis, 16 Cha; you'll be getting plenty of boosts to ability scores in Wrath of the Righteous as you gain mythic tiers, so you can afford to bump Dex to 17 (which is all you really need; Greater Two-Weapon Fighting isn't worth it, IMO).
Non-Campaign Trait: Flame of the Dawnflower (Sarenrae) is a nice boost for a scimitar-wielder; Sarenrae also fits with some of the themes in the AP.
1st- Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd- Quick Draw(1)
5th- Power Attack(1)
7th- Shield Slam
9th- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting(2)
11th- Shield Master
13th- Improved Critical(2)
15th- Bashing Finish
17th- Critical Focus
19th- one of Bleeding Critical, Blinding Critical (although it's a bit less widely applicable than the other two), or Staggering Critical
The (1) and (2) feats can be swapped in the progression, depending on when you want the particular benefits to come online.
::facepalm::
The number of times that I've had to explain how much of a trap Unsanctioned Knowledge is to a class that doesn't get extra feats on feat-starved builds... Everything that Unsanctioned Knowledge gains you can be obtained through wands. Which is a more valuable resource? Wealth by level, or feats?
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Everything that Unsanctioned Knowledge gains you can be obtained through wands. Which is a more valuable resource? Wealth by level, or feats?
Not everyone wants to take on both the nuisance of building a Paladin into a UMD-wand-monkey and the escalating expense of increased-CL wands just to save one feat? Duplicating a level 10 Unsanctioned Knowledge Paladin's CL9 Mirror Image with a wand isn't what you could call an easy purchase.
Personally, I'd go scimitar (eventually impact) and light quickdraw shield (eventually bashing mithral) for a sword and board paladin. The scimitar is just so much better than longsword from 4th level (when you can cast blessed weapon to auto-confirm criticals against evil foes); and especially once you get past 8th and can take Improved Critical.** spoiler omitted **
Ahem.
Non-Campaign Trait: Flame of the Dawnflower (Sarenrae) is a nice boost for a scimitar-wielder; Sarenrae also fits with some of the themes in the AP.
Anyway, a cleric of Iomedae with levels in Inheritor's crusader could (arguably, with a slight GM tweak) use Radiance, as well. Just because it (eventually, if the conditions are met) turns into a holy avenger later on, doesn't mean it has to be used by a paladin.
Actually, it upgrades to a Sacred Avenger, which requires a LG wielder, not necessarily a paladin (although paladins are best).
You want Unsanctioned Knowledge because the caster level of the Paladin will exceed any wand, and wands of 3rd and 4th level spells are expensive, and having to pull out a wand to cast a spell can sometimes be quite cumbersome.
There are some EXCELLENT spells to grab with Unsanctioned Knowledge, too.
==Aelryinth
This is my Wrath of the Righteous sword and board paladin.
Not the typical build.....
?
click on his name
::facepalm::
The number of times that I've had to explain how much of a trap Unsanctioned Knowledge is to a class that doesn't get extra feats on feat-starved builds... Everything that Unsanctioned Knowledge gains you can be obtained through wands. Which is a more valuable resource? Wealth by level, or feats?
I like Unsanctioned Knowledge. It is hardly a trap even if you can simulate it quite good with gold and move actions to draw wands. Of cause it is not a prioity on a TWF sword and board pally but no need to go all elitist on us. Link to one of your explanations instead of giving us the tired teacher rutine. And good work on the guide BTW;)
::facepalm::
The number of times that I've had to explain how much of a trap Unsanctioned Knowledge is to a class that doesn't get extra feats on feat-starved builds... Everything that Unsanctioned Knowledge gains you can be obtained through wands. Which is a more valuable resource? Wealth by level, or feats?
Well explain again because I am not seeing it. Wand eat up actions, and money. This feat if used for the right spells is very good, and it works with any build, and you don't have to worry about a wand sheath or gloves of storing, or that new item in the melee toolbox book to be able to make sure you have the wand at your disposal. Wands are also very expensive, especially past 2nd level. Some even say 2nd level wands cost too much, and they are much easier to dispel if you are not using your own caster levels. Sure you can get them crafted at a higher caster level, but that just cost more money.
TLDR: Your "Which is a more valuable resource?" is way to simplified, and the idea of the feat being a trap feat is incorrect. Trap feats are feats that hardly ever provide value. Unsanctioned knowledge is very valuable.
Sacred Avenger is a trait, not a weapon. What it becomes is a Legendary Holy Avenger with a custom build.Actually, it upgrades to a Sacred Avenger, which requires a LG wielder, not necessarily a paladin (although paladins are best).
==Aelryinth
Bad search-fu! (wags finger)
I'm talking about one of these: (Of which I thought it evolved into)
It's a Mythic Weapon.
===============================================================
Sacred Avenger
Price 202,630 gp; Slot none; CL 20th; Weight 4 lbs.; Aura strong abjuration
DESCRIPTION
This +3 cold iron longsword becomes a +5 holy defiant cold iron longsword in the hands of a paladin or a lawful good mythic creature. If the creature wielding this weapon is a paladin with mythic tiers, she can also grant the weapon the brilliant energy special ability on command. Dismissing the brilliant energy ability is a free action.
When wielded by a paladin or a lawful good mythic creature, this weapon provides spell resistance equal to 5 + the character's paladin class level (if any) + the character's mythic tier (if any) to the wielder and anyone within 10 feet of her. It also enables the wielder to use mythic greater dispel magic once per round as a standard action, with a caster level equal to either the wielder's paladin class level or double her mythic tier, whichever is higher. Mythic greater dispel magic functions as greater dispel magic including the benefits of the mythic dispel magic spell, but when the wielder dispels a spell, she heals 1d6 points of damage for every spell level of the dispelled spell instead of healing 1d4 points of damage.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 102,630 gp; Feats Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Mythic Crafter; Spells gaseous form, greater dispel magic, holy aura; Special creator must be good
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==Aelryinth