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Just curious about how other people handle their temporary/permanent bonuses and if it ever matters. I suppose if you want to keep your permanent bonuses, you have to bathe, sleep, have coitus all the while never taking off your belts or headband.
I can just imagine a girl who normally has a 6 in her charisma score, some how got a hold of a Headband of Alluring Charisma +8, ending up with a +14 Charisma. She finds a Fabio, and after a while of courting, they begin the ritual of coitus. He gets his long flowing hair stuck in the headband and as he pulls away, the headband comes off and is confronted with an ugly smelly hickbilly girl. He tries to get away but unfortunately for him she never took off the belt of giant strength. She rides him down for hours.
Just curious about how other people handle their temporary/permanent bonuses and if it ever matters. I suppose if you want to keep your permanent bonuses, you have to bathe, sleep, have coitus all the while never taking off your belts or headband.
In my game the characters can take their stat boosters off and still benefit from them as long as they're within 10 ft.
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I don't use bonuses from items (except tomes) as qualifying for feats and so on, so it's not really much of an issue in my games.
I also don't have them adjust physical appearance, so again not an issue.
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I don't use bonuses from items (except tomes) as qualifying for feats and so on, so it's not really much of an issue in my games.
I also don't have them adjust physical appearance, so again not an issue.
Two weapon fighters must weep in your games.
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Two weapon fighters must weep in your games.I don't use bonuses from items (except tomes) as qualifying for feats and so on, so it's not really much of an issue in my games.
I also don't have them adjust physical appearance, so again not an issue.
I use stat generation methods that most people would probably find ridiculously high, and I have Dex to hit built into light weapons, and Dex to damage with one feat. Most characters in my games intended to be two weapon fighters will start with an 18 - 20 Dex (and probably still have a 13 - 16 Str).
Ah, that'd fix it then.
Never been particularly interested in complicating my games when it doesn't serve any purpose.
I'm especially not interested in scenarios as contrived as the one the OP sets up.
i dont see how its contrived it opens up the old charisma as appearance debate sure but assuming that charisma affects appearance (and even if not its the headband of alluring charisma it will certainty help attract a mate (although to be fair in that situation your already in the middle of the act so its unlikely to matter a whole lot) then i dont see how this would be considered contrived it seems like something that could easily happen
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Some people would.just use (sp?) Prestidigitation to "shower" themselves each day. Makes me think that thread about a 20 level pc being jumped while.bathing seems silly to me.
I would do the same thing IRL given the option.
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Some people would.just use (sp?) Prestidigitation to "shower" themselves each day. Makes me think that thread about a 20 level pc being jumped while.bathing seems silly to me.I would do the same thing IRL given the option.
It's like a magical sonic shower. You don't even have to bother getting undressed.
Two weapon fighters must weep in your games.I don't use bonuses from items (except tomes) as qualifying for feats and so on, so it's not really much of an issue in my games.
I also don't have them adjust physical appearance, so again not an issue.
Eh, it is not that bad. I can easily work a strength build that gets enough dex to qualify for the good TWF feats (who needs greater TWF? It is a BAB-12 attack).
At least on a 20 pt buy.
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It's like a magical sonic shower. You don't even have to bother getting undressed.Some people would.just use (sp?) Prestidigitation to "shower" themselves each day. Makes me think that thread about a 20 level pc being jumped while.bathing seems silly to me.I would do the same thing IRL given the option.
If I had the following:
Endure elements: Personal air conditioning
Prestidigitation: showers,etc.
Unseen servant: incidental chores
Rope trick-Magnificent mansion: Comfortable place to sleep
Ring of sustenance: food
I might not mind camping so much. Incidentally, my mages always have most of those available if not running. My group calls Tiny Hut "lazy Mages Tent."
I'm not interested in things like sleeping, bathing, and "coitus" being parts of playing a game with my friends, so I don't even bother dealing with this.
It's usually fade to black moments at best with my group, which is how I prefer it. However, it's assumed that some part of downtime includes bathing and maybe whoring if we're in a town with a brothel. Varies with characters.
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I always thought of this in regard to ring of sustenance. It takes a week to attune. Basically, if you want it to work you can never take it off.
I think about this every time I wash my hands with my engagement ring on. Water inevitably gets under it. I then have to move it up my finger, but without taking it off, to dry underneath before I slip it back into the right place.
With all that in mind I wonder how annoying it would be to shower with a circlet on. I have short hair, so it'd be easier, but still irritating. What does someone with long hair do? You'd never be able to really comb or style your hair. Eventually the whole thing would look like a rats nest.
I usually play cerebral characters, so the belt is less of an issue. However, that'd be more annoying. How would you take off your pants without removing your belt? You'd have to wear the belt as an accessory and not as a functional item. Then what if you have to wear another non-magic belt to hold up your pants. Does it count as not worn if you unbuckle it? You'd never be able to unzip your pants to pee.
My general rationalization is that so long as your touching the attuned item (ring, circlet, belt) it stays attuned even if it's temporarily in the wrong place. However, you'd want to put it back in the right spot in a reasonable amount of time.
Its weird, but I think about this stuff all the time.
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This is one of the many reasons I like the idea of replacing magic items with equivalent character abilities that are "purchased" with non-monetary points. I.e., instead of spending 4,000gp on a +2 CON belt and then wondering about bathing, the economy, etc; you just spend 4,000 "points" on gaining a permanent +2 to CON for that character. Problem solved.
This is one of the many reasons I like the idea of replacing magic items with equivalent character abilities that are "purchased" with non-monetary points. I.e., instead of spending 4,000gp on a +2 CON belt and then wondering about bathing, the economy, etc; you just spend 4,000 "points" on gaining a permanent +2 to CON for that character. Problem solved.
I like this idea. Perhaps rituals that have expense material components to imbue a willing participant with increased stats.
Edit: think that would work for the stat items and maybe a couple of other big six items?
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This is one of the many reasons I like the idea of replacing magic items with equivalent character abilities that are "purchased" with non-monetary points. I.e., instead of spending 4,000gp on a +2 CON belt and then wondering about bathing, the economy, etc; you just spend 4,000 "points" on gaining a permanent +2 to CON for that character. Problem solved.I like this idea. Perhaps rituals that have expense material components to imbue a willing participant with increased stats.
Edit: think that would work for the stat items and maybe a couple of other big six items?
Actually, I'm not even talking about using magic or even making it an in-character thing at all. In character, you're just growing in experience and power. Out of character, you're accumulating points (much like XP, actually) and then spending them on upgrades. You can use this system to replace damn near every magic item in the game, and fix a LOT of problems.
I've seen a few threads (mostly in Homebrew?) on replacing WBL and the "big 6 items"/Christmas tree effect with permanent bonuses. I think Evil Lincoln made one, either that or his system has been championed quite a bit.
Actually, I'm not even talking about using magic or even making it an in-character thing at all. In character, you're just growing in experience and power. Out of character, you're accumulating points (much like XP, actually) and then spending them on upgrades. You can use this system to replace damn near every magic item in the game, and fix a LOT of problems.This is one of the many reasons I like the idea of replacing magic items with equivalent character abilities that are "purchased" with non-monetary points. I.e., instead of spending 4,000gp on a +2 CON belt and then wondering about bathing, the economy, etc; you just spend 4,000 "points" on gaining a permanent +2 to CON for that character. Problem solved.I like this idea. Perhaps rituals that have expense material components to imbue a willing participant with increased stats.
Edit: think that would work for the stat items and maybe a couple of other big six items?
I think what you're saying would work, but you'd have to build a new system. Making stat boosting items into rituals melds perfectly into the current system minus the actual physical thing that is the stat booster.
Ritual costs would exactly mirror the current cost of stat boosting items and upgrades. I'd even say that if you want to do more than one physical or more than one mental that the prices reflect the combined items and not the single since you're not actually wearing anything.
But, to each their own.
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I think what you're saying would work, but you'd have to build a new system.
No I wouldn't. All the prices and abilities are already there, you just make it character-based instead of item-and-money-based. What issue are you seeing that makes you think a new system would need to be built?
I think what you're saying would work, but you'd have to build a new system.No I wouldn't. All the prices and abilities are already there, you just make it character-based instead of item-and-money-based. What issue are you seeing that makes you think a new system would need to be built?
Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about spending money to collect upgrade points or something. In retrospect I think we're talking about basically the same thing. The only difference being the flavor.
I use the new inscribe tattoo for that exact reason. :D
Instead of a +1 flaming sword, it's a +1 flaming fighter who applies their bonus to any weapon they hold.
I think what you're saying would work, but you'd have to build a new system.No I wouldn't. All the prices and abilities are already there, you just make it character-based instead of item-and-money-based. What issue are you seeing that makes you think a new system would need to be built?What do you do with treasure? Do you replace all magic items? Including consumables and other non Big-Six stuff?
If I learn to make my sword burst into flame, is it just that sword? Or can I make any weapon I'm using flame?
I was just talking about stat items and Maybe (stressing maybe) base saving throw items. Basically things that are inherent to the individual. All else would remain unchanged or it'll just get weird.
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Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about spending money to collect upgrade points or something. In retrospect I think we're talking about basically the same thing. The only difference being the flavor.I think what you're saying would work, but you'd have to build a new system.No I wouldn't. All the prices and abilities are already there, you just make it character-based instead of item-and-money-based. What issue are you seeing that makes you think a new system would need to be built?
I'm talking about something like this:
GM: Okay, having defeated the brigands, everyone gains 213 points.Fighter: Cool, that takes my total up to 2,102. I'll spend 2,000 of that to get a +1 enhancement bonus to all my attack and damage rolls, bypass DR/magic, and deal half damage to incorporeals.
GM: Sounds good. Now, who's opening the next door?
Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about spending money to collect upgrade points or something. In retrospect I think we're talking about basically the same thing. The only difference being the flavor.I think what you're saying would work, but you'd have to build a new system.No I wouldn't. All the prices and abilities are already there, you just make it character-based instead of item-and-money-based. What issue are you seeing that makes you think a new system would need to be built?I'm talking about something like this:
GM: Okay, having defeated the brigands, everyone gains 213 points.
Fighter: Cool, that takes my total up to 2,102. I'll spend 2,000 of that to get a +1 enhancement bonus to all my attack and damage rolls, bypass DR/magic, and deal half damage to incorporeals.
GM: Sounds good. Now, who's opening the next door?
Basically instead of gold the GM gives you a point pool that you can only spend on stats, etc.
My concept was identical except it's just gold. The only change from the current game is that you just buy a ritual and get the stat boost. No separate pools or what not to keep track of.
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I think what you're saying would work, but you'd have to build a new system.No I wouldn't. All the prices and abilities are already there, you just make it character-based instead of item-and-money-based. What issue are you seeing that makes you think a new system would need to be built?What do you do with treasure? Do you replace all magic items? Including consumables and other non Big-Six stuff?
If I learn to make my sword burst into flame, is it just that sword? Or can I make any weapon I'm using flame?
Any weapon. Hey look, now suddenly we've solved the "TWF is too expensive" issue and the "gear loss is a fate worse than death" issue all at the same time!
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Basically instead of gold the GM gives you a point pool that you can only spend on stats, etc.
No, not just on stats. Pretty much every magic item in the game is replaced by the ability to just learn to do the things that base-Pathfinder's magic items do.
No separate pools or what not to keep track of.
See above; I'm not adding a pool that has to be tracked alongside WBL, I'm replacing "wealth by level" with "abilities by level".
I wouldn't care to play a game where all items were replaced. I don't mind some of the big 6 being replaced for simplicity, but I think to do much more would overly complicate things as opposed to simplifying. Plus I like finding really cool items. Finding Points isn't nearly as satisfying.
My 2C.
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So you just do away with treasure entirely? Replaced with these "points".
Well, for Pathfinder's definition of "treasure", yes. The things that are part of your character's growth budget get completely disconnected from money. Now you don't have to worry about contriving reasons for there to be up-for-grabs gear lying around a dungeon, you don't have to pretend the economy isn't a thing, you don't have to worry about over-equipping an enemy and have the resultant looting of the body screw up the power balance, and you gain the ability to drop a cache of gold or a magic sword and have it actually be TREASURE.
And can I spend these points as needed, rather than up front? Especially for things like consumables? Would short term effects have to follow the current rules for using potions/scrolls/wands? Or could I just spend the points for a scroll of daylight to get the effect, without burning actions or needing to see?
I'm not quite sure on scrolls/potions/wands yet. You could do it the way you described, or you could come up with costs for gaining a 1/day SLA (and for increasing uses per day), or you could just leave those items as-is (after all, potions and scrolls and wands seem like classic treasure to find in a dungeon).
But that's such a small portion of Pathfinder's "XP2" system that it calls WBL, that it's not as big of a deal which way you go with it.
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I wouldn't care to play a game where all items were replaced. I don't mind some of the big 6 being replaced for simplicity, but I think to do much more would overly complicate things as opposed to simplifying. Plus I like finding really cool items. Finding Points isn't nearly as satisfying.
My 2C.
But that's the thing: when gear is a built-in part of your character's power progression, it will never be special. There's no such thing as "finding really cool items" when it's just part of your budget and if you gain another level or two you'll just have to sell it anyway.
If instead your baseline power progression is character-based, then you can find cool items and have it actually be special!
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You may be happy with the changes in the TWF case (I probably would be too), but maybe less so with buying a stack of double barreled pistols and not worrying about reloading in combat, since each is treated as having the same bonuses when I use it.
Tsk tsk tsk, your head's still in WBL-land. ;)
Those things cost 1,750gp apiece.
The only way that isn't a fortune is if WBL is still a thing. But if you remove WBL as a mechanic, then PCs are never guaranteed to have that kind of coin. Saving up to buy that would be a well-earned prize, and finding it as loot would be super-exciting.
And since you can apply your existing bonuses to it, you don't have to go "Oh, that's not what I'm specialized in, I guess I sell it at the next town." You can actually keep it for your whole career if you want.
But you also won't be buying a stack of them, so your concern is moot.
Jiggy,
It's sounding increasingly like you're re-writing the system. Not being critical, but the idea sounds convoluted in that you'd have to redesign a lot of the game aspect. Not to say you couldn't, but it is a new rules set.
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If you're going to leave those as found/purchased items, you have to go back to laying out treasure appropriate to how much of that kind of stuff you want.
Or you don't, and the casters have to actually think about what they want available that day instead of having scrolls to cover everything so they can focus their spell slots on being godlike. Might actually increase teamwork.
;)
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Expensive mundane stuff breaks under this system. Even the single barreled ones are 1000gp each.
"Expensive mundane stuff"? You mean, guns? Yes, if you want more than the gunslinger's starting gun, then a GM using this system will need to figure something out.
Meanwhile, in the other 99% of games, things work beautifully.
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And the clerics can all go back to being healbots.
That's probably the biggest issue with this system, but honestly, the wands of CLW were never an elegant solution to begin with. I don't see that as a "new problem", I see that as one of the very few problems that remain unsolved.
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As I edited in, Full Plate?Expensive mundane stuff breaks under this system. Even the single barreled ones are 1000gp each."Expensive mundane stuff"? You mean, guns? Yes, if you want more than the gunslinger's starting gun, then a GM using this system will need to figure something out.
Meanwhile, in the other 99% of games, things work beautifully.
Full plate can easily be something found, or earned over time. It's not like it was ever something that you needed to have right away at first level to be viable in the first place. And remember all those other armors that are just a hair inferior to full plate but, since wealth is so plentiful, you only ever buy the best? Now those exist again.
I assume special materials for items are also handled by "points"? Or not, because that means all your stuff has the same special material abilities. Can't carry a cold iron mace and a silver dagger.
Or you're looking at buying mithral and adamantine gear with no budget.
Or these rare and precious metals could again be rare and precious. Now finding an adamantine sword is actually something to be excited about, instead of something you either were already assuming you would buy or are just going to sell anyway.
If I were to get ride of the big 6, I would just create a progression where the character gains bonuses to their saves, AC, and attack/damage at various levels.
Weapon and armor abilities would still exist, and when it comes to enhancement bonuses, you would use the higher of the two. So if you had a +5 to attack and damage from your character levels, and a +3 sword, you would use the +5.
A +1 weapon or armor wouldn't be worth much to most characters when compared to its mundane counterpart, other than having the "magical" tag, making it more difficult to target and destroy, and allowing it to effect incorporeals.
KISS method for the win.