Hey all, if I could get a definitive answer on this I'd appreciate it. I know the definition of enhancement bonus:
"An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks."
The key point here is on the same object. If I have an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 and the catfolk racial weapon Claw blades +5, will they stack, being different objects? For reference:
AoMF - DESCRIPTION
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.
Claw Blades - Benefit: The blades grant the wearer a +1 enhancement bonus on claw attack rolls with that hand and change the weapon type from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon. Catfolk with the cat's claws racial trait are proficient with this weapon. The claw blades can be enhanced like a masterwork weapon for the normal costs. The listed cost of the item is for one set of five claws for one hand.
Well considering that claw blades make your attacks light manufactured weapons and amulet of mighty fist doesn't enhance manufactured weapons no.
Captain Netz wrote: Well considering that claw blades make your attacks light manufactured weapons and amulet of mighty fist doesn't enhance manufactured weapons no. I believe that it changes the weapon type, not the attack type? It's still natural attacks, just changing the wording on the weapon. "change the weapon type from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon" Not "Change the attack type from natural to weapon attack"
Then what's the point of that wording if claws are always light slashing weapons? Even so, they are both enhancement bonuses so +5 and +5 won't stack but I'm pretty sure a +1 speed claw blade wasn't intended to combine with a +5 amulet to make +5 speed claw attacks.
I'm not terribly interested in intended, as I said in the title this is a RAW thread. And the question isn't about whether or not claw blades count as natural attacks. It's about whether the enhancement bonus would stack, seeing as they're two seperate objects. But, for the sake of discussion, we'll take the same situation, but use the ratfolk tailblade instead of the catfolk clawblade.
"Tailblade:
A tailblade is a small, sharp knife designed to be strapped to the tip of a wielder's tail.
Benefit: A ratfolk wielding a tailblade can make a tail attack, adding its Strength modifier to the tailblade's damage.
It takes a full-round action to strap on or remove a tailblade. The wearer can loosely attach the tailblade (without strapping it securely in place) as a move action, but using a loosely attached tailblade gives the wielder a –4 penalty on all attack rolls made with the weapon, and other creatures get a +4 bonus on disarm combat maneuver checks to disarm the tailblade.
Ratfolk are considered proficient with such attacks and can apply feats or effects appropriate to natural attacks to tail attacks made with a tailblade. If used as part of a full attack action, attacks with a tailblade are considered secondary attacks."
So, in this "different" scenario, would the AoMF stack?
There is a difference between saying feats and effects appropriate and all feats and effects. Something that acts like or is similar to something isn't the EXACT same as that thing, unless specifically stated to be.
Claw blades, tailblades, etc are listed under the manufactured (albeit exotic) weapons. They aren't listed under the natural attack table. So we have a difference. If you have an arguement (meaning something to debate with), bring it to the GM who is running and talk it over with them. They are the one making the final decision regardless.
As soon as someone starts saying they don't want to hear about what is intended and instead only wants to hear RAW I can almost guarantee he's going to ignore all of us that say it doesn't work.
Claw blades are manufactured weapons. Amulet of Mighty Fists only works on natural attacks, which claw blades are not.
I'm asking for a clarification of the way enhancement bonus stacking is worded in reference to objects. I was only using the claw blades as an example. It's clearly an erroneous one, but substituting the tailblade makes it an accurate example.
The question is about the the enhancement definition is worded. To clarify: If a ratfolk with the tailblade weapon has the tailblade enchanted to +5, will it then stack with an AoMF +5 according to the wording of the enhancement term?
DKFever wrote: Captain Netz wrote: Well considering that claw blades make your attacks light manufactured weapons and amulet of mighty fist doesn't enhance manufactured weapons no. I believe that it changes the weapon type, not the attack type? It's still natural attacks, just changing the wording on the weapon. "change the weapon type from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon" Not "Change the attack type from natural to weapon attack" That makes them objectively worse.
You want your claws to not be natural weapons. There are a variety of reasons why you do not want that
1. Claw pounce. They are claws, but they get iteratives. This seems like the big one
2. People playing monks/unarmed builds have wanted to make brassknuckles do exactly this for years. An item that allows fro easy enhancement but still counts as (X). They want to AVOID AoMF, since it eats up your neck slot and has a high ceiling for upgrading (since a lot of TWF builds can just go about upgrading 1 of their weapons at a time, instead of having to wait until they can afford both).
DKFever wrote: I'm asking for a clarification of the way enhancement bonus stacking is worded in reference to objects. I was only using the claw blades as an example. It's clearly an erroneous one, but substituting the tailblade makes it an accurate example.
The question is about the the enhancement definition is worded. To clarify: If a ratfolk with the tailblade weapon has the tailblade enchanted to +5, will it then stack with an AoMF +5 according to the wording of the enhancement term?
Ignoring the natural vs manufactured debate, the answer is still no. You can't have a weapon with a +10 enhancement bonus to hit and damage. And even if you could, enhancement bonuses don't stack. So +5 and +5 would just get you +5.
Gisher wrote: DKFever wrote: I'm asking for a clarification of the way enhancement bonus stacking is worded in reference to objects. I was only using the claw blades as an example. It's clearly an erroneous one, but substituting the tailblade makes it an accurate example.
The question is about the the enhancement definition is worded. To clarify: If a ratfolk with the tailblade weapon has the tailblade enchanted to +5, will it then stack with an AoMF +5 according to the wording of the enhancement term?
Ignoring the natural vs manufactured debate, the answer is still no. You can't have a weapon with a +10 enhancement bonus to hit and damage. And even if you could, enhancement bonuses don't stack. So +5 and +5 would just get you +5. Thank you for answering the topic question <3
The argument I'm making is that according to the enhancement bonus wording, "Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack".
It seems to me that if they don't stack on the same object, and that it's specifically worded that they don't, then it stands to reason that if you're receiving the bonuses on different objects they would, therefore, stack. is there another source of clarification on enhancement bonuses where it explicitly states that they don't?
A weapon only benefits from an enhancement on itself. You are either using the claw blades to attack or your actual claws. An enhancement on one item does not affect another because by RAW and RAI it only affects what it says it affects.
So if the claw blade is enhanced to be a +5 then the "claw blades" get a +5. If you have an amulet of mighty fist then the "Claws" specifically the claws get a +3.
As long as those claw blades are on that is what you are using. When they are off then you are making actual claw attacks.
If you are trying to convince your home GM then just let him come here and read the the statement for himself. If you are the GM then we have given you the answer. In the end it is up to you, if you choose allow it anyway.
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Both are an enhancement bonus, the don't stack, no matter what wording you can come up with, they don't stack. If you have two rings, both with a +2 deflection bonus, they don't stack, you get +2 total. It is not a matter of the objects, it is the bonus type, unless it is dodge, your not getting it.
Additionally, take a look at the rules for ranged weapons and ammunition. Only the highest enhancement bonus counts, even though they are different objects.
Gilarius wrote: Additionally, take a look at the rules for ranged weapons and ammunition. Only the highest enhancement bonus counts, even though they are different objects. Ah. perfect, thank you. That's what I was looking for. Concrete examples make my life so much easier.
DKFever wrote: Gilarius wrote: Additionally, take a look at the rules for ranged weapons and ammunition. Only the highest enhancement bonus counts, even though they are different objects. Ah. perfect, thank you. That's what I was looking for. Concrete examples make my life so much easier. That is still not a general rule, but a specific case.
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