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If a grappled spell caster manages to cast Force Punch on the grappler, who then flunks the save, what happens?
If the grappler gets knocked away from the caster, it would be really hard to hold on to the caster from a distance.
This spell charges your hand with telekinetic force. Your successful melee touch attack deals 1d4 points of force damage per level (maximum 10d4) and causes the target to be pushed away from you in a straight line up to 5 feet per two caster levels. For every size category of the target above Medium, reduce the distance pushed by 5 feet (–5 feet for Large, –10 feet for Huge, –15 for Gargantuan, and –20 feet for Colossal) to a minimum of 0 feet. A successful Fortitude save negates the movement but not the damage.
Naturally, there are some GMs who would simply say, "The enemy has to make a really high DC grapple check, but if it makes the check it can hold onto you while being blown away by force punch".
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Byakko -
The spell description says if the Fort is Flunked the victim moves AWAY from the caster.
This spell charges your hand with telekinetic force. Your successful melee touch attack deals 1d4 points of force damage per level (maximum 10d4) and causes the target to be pushed away from you in a straight line up to 5 feet per two caster levels.
Generally, when the controller of a grapple moves, the person being grappled moves with them.
I'd probably say the grappler gets launched, but might very well take the caster with them.
Generally, when the controller of a grapple moves, the person being grappled moves with them.
I'd probably say the grappler gets launched, but might very well take the caster with them.
No, when the controller of a grapple makes a grapple check to move the grapple the person being grappled moves with them. The rules are otherwise silent on this issue.
Hopefully, the spell caster just fails the check to cast while being grappled.
Considering the DC is 10 + grapplers CMB + spell level there is a good chance of it.
Generally, when the controller of a grapple moves, the person being grappled moves with them.
Completely false. That's not true at all. You need to succeed at a grapple check as a standard action to move your target with you.
Generally, when the controller of a grapple moves, the person being grappled moves with them.Completely false. That's not true at all. You need to succeed at a grapple check as a standard action to move your target with you.
Which leaves us with two options.
A. The grapple ends.B. The grappler needs to make a grapple check to hang on to the caster and drag them with him. Personally, I would add a circumstance penalty based on damage taken or distance moved.
The real meat of the question is: Can I make a grapple check to force someone else to move with me when I am moved involuntarily?
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I'm not sure what the rules are on this, but surely that kind of thing would allow the caster an immediate action to attempt to escape the grapple at the same time?
I don't think being able to freely get out would be fair to the grappler, and just moving with the grappler would be fair to the caster. I know there's a fort save, but that's for the effect to work at all in the first place. The grappler should have an advantage in this case.
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Jokerm: how does that change anything I said?
Charender, Avatar: when you have to start making up rules, it's probably a pretty good sign that it's not core. While I'm all for creative GMing, and coming up with things on the fly, none of those ideas are strictly by rules.
In order to move someone you're in a grapple with, you have to make the "grapple to move" check. If either of you is moved away from the other, the grapple simply ends.
As has been mentioned, this isn't spelled out super clearly in the rules... but were you really hoping for perfect clarity when it comes to grapple rules? ;)
Your statement here
I don't see anything that would preclude one or both parties from otherwise being forced to move by an external force.
Suggested to me when the fort save is flunked both the grappler and who is being grappled would move in the same direction.
If that is not what you meant, then OK.
My opinion is the grapple would be broken unless the grappler had long arms or something.
Charender -
B. The grappler needs to make a grapple check to hang on to the caster and drag them with him. Personally, I would add a circumstance penalty based on damage taken or distance moved.
Maybe adding the DC of the Force Punch as a circumstance penalty?
Strictly according to the rules, though, the grappler would move
AWAY from the caster.
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Hopefully, the spell caster just fails the check to cast while being grappled.
Considering the DC is 10 + grapplers CMB + spell level there is a good chance of it.
There are other ways to do this, though. A ring of spell storing, for instance, would not require a caster check, right? Would be a wimpy Fort Save, but the grappler could always roll a 1.
Jokerm: how does that change anything I said?
Charender, Avatar: when you have to start making up rules, it's probably a pretty good sign that it's not core. While I'm all for creative GMing, and coming up with things on the fly, none of those ideas are strictly by rules.
In order to move someone you're in a grapple with, you have to make the "grapple to move" check. If either of you is moved away from the other, the grapple simply ends.
So the next time we encounter a grappling monster (or even Black Tentatcles), all I have to do is Drag, Bull Rush, or Reposition my ally to get him out? He won't resist, so his CMD is really low (I mean, on top of being reduced because he's grappled). And it doesn't matter that I don't have the Improved {Maneuver} feat, because the combat maneuver only provokes from the target.
That essentially gives me an automatic "get-out-of-grapple-free" card as long as any single member of the party is not caught by the monster or Black Tentacles.
I can't imagine any GM letting me get away with that.
Still eating actions, so it is hardly free. In fact no more 'free' than someone D Dooring someone out of a grapple.
Anyone ever tried to drag or push someone off of someone or something that they were grabbing onto?
It isn't easy. Humans are built to be really good two things. One is walking. The other is holding on to stuff.
I have a serious problem with the idea that all you have to do to break a grapple is move one of the two parties. If that's the case then when all you have to do to get the wizard away from the coils of a constricting giant snake is to Bull Rush or Reposition the wizard. They choose not to resist, their CMD is effectively nonexistent, and then suddenly they are free from danger.
It seems like unless the CMD of the controller of the grapple is beaten, the controller of the grapple just hangs on. Its up to the GM what the exact effects of that are.
In this case, I'd say the grappler gets launched and just takes the caster with them.
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Jokerm: how does that change anything I said?
Charender, Avatar: when you have to start making up rules, it's probably a pretty good sign that it's not core. While I'm all for creative GMing, and coming up with things on the fly, none of those ideas are strictly by rules.
In order to move someone you're in a grapple with, you have to make the "grapple to move" check. If either of you is moved away from the other, the grapple simply ends.
As has been mentioned, this isn't spelled out super clearly in the rules... but were you really hoping for perfect clarity when it comes to grapple rules? ;)
By RAW, the only ways to remove the grappled condition are
A. If the creature who initiated the grapple releases it as a free action.B. If the creature being grapples breaks it using a standard action
No where in the RAW does it say that being moved away from the creature you are grappling breaks the grapple. So saying that the grapple simple ends is also not strictly by the rules.
The only thing in grapple that covers movement at all is the Grapple check to move as a standard action, so it isn't a stretch to use that as a base for handling this situation.
After reading more of this discussion, I agree at the very least the grappled caster would need to somehow beat the CMD of the grappler. Otherwise the grapple isn't broken and the caster is simply carried with the grappler.
Allowing this spell to just get you out of a grapple is too easy.
Jokerm: how does that change anything I said?
Charender, Avatar: when you have to start making up rules, it's probably a pretty good sign that it's not core. While I'm all for creative GMing, and coming up with things on the fly, none of those ideas are strictly by rules.
In order to move someone you're in a grapple with, you have to make the "grapple to move" check. If either of you is moved away from the other, the grapple simply ends.
As has been mentioned, this isn't spelled out super clearly in the rules... but were you really hoping for perfect clarity when it comes to grapple rules? ;)
By RAW, the only ways to remove the grappled condition are
A. If the creature who initiated the grapple releases it as a free action.
B. If the creature being grapples breaks it using a standard actionNo where in the RAW does it say that being moved away from the creature you are grappling breaks the grapple. So saying that the grapple simple ends is also not strictly by the rules.
The only thing in grapple that covers movement at all is the Grapple check to move as a standard action, so it isn't a stretch to use that as a base for handling this situation.
I agree, but you should add one more thing to your list, just for completeness:
C: If the creature being grappled is the target of a Liberating Command spell and then makes an Escape Artist check as an immediate action.(Just to make sure no one jumps on your list of options and says, "Ha! You forgot Liberating Command! The remainder of your well-thought-out post is invalid!" Not that this would ever happen, but still...)
Eh, when you attempt a combat maneuver and take damage doing so, the damage is added as a penalty to your attack roll.
At the very least, even if I ruled that the grappler can maintain the grapple through the movement, I'd probably impose a grapple check with the damage of the spell causing a penalty to said check. Getting hit in the face hard enough to be sent flying should make it difficult to maintain a grapple, I would think. Only the steeliest of persons should be able to succeed.
Jokerm: how does that change anything I said?
Charender, Avatar: when you have to start making up rules, it's probably a pretty good sign that it's not core. While I'm all for creative GMing, and coming up with things on the fly, none of those ideas are strictly by rules.
In order to move someone you're in a grapple with, you have to make the "grapple to move" check. If either of you is moved away from the other, the grapple simply ends.
As has been mentioned, this isn't spelled out super clearly in the rules... but were you really hoping for perfect clarity when it comes to grapple rules? ;)
By RAW, the only ways to remove the grappled condition are
A. If the creature who initiated the grapple releases it as a free action.
B. If the creature being grapples breaks it using a standard actionNo where in the RAW does it say that being moved away from the creature you are grappling breaks the grapple. So saying that the grapple simple ends is also not strictly by the rules.
The only thing in grapple that covers movement at all is the Grapple check to move as a standard action, so it isn't a stretch to use that as a base for handling this situation.
I agree, but you should add one more thing to your list, just for completeness:
C: If the creature being grappled is the target of a Liberating Command spell and then makes an Escape Artist check as an immediate action.(Just to make sure no one jumps on your list of options and says, "Ha! You forgot Liberating Command! The remainder of your well-thought-out post is invalid!" Not that this would ever happen, but still...)
Good point, there are several spells that specifically free you from a grapple as part of their effects. That said, Force Punch is not one of those spells.
The grapple rules specify that if a creature is somehow grappled at range, the creature being grappled is then drawn to the closest adjacent square to the grappler.
If Force Punch launched the grappler, but the grapple wasn't broken, the rules therefor imply that the caster being grappled would have to be dragged to the closest available adjacent square.
S the whole "Moved grapplers drag grappled creatures" thing does seem to have rules precedent.
Sorry, but I really disagree with the logic here. A force Punch spell would physically move someone away from the space where they initiatited it, causing the grapple to end. Here's why:
Its the same thing if someone is Plane Shifted away, dimension doors, teleports, or otherwise leaves the space where the grapple is taking place. The grappler doesn't ride along with those effects any more than someone grappling would be carried with their own Force Punch.
Apples and oranges.
Not at all. These are both magical effects that cause someone to be in a different position from where they started. In neither spell description for Force Punch nor Dimension Door does it state anything to the effect of what you're implying, nor does it in the grapple rules. The PC isn't using his CMD to move away, a magical effect is bypassing the need to make the check.
There is no signifigant difference between Force Punch, Hydrolic Push, Bull Rush, Awesome Blow or any other ability that amounts to "shove someone"
To say that any of those could break a grapple without a roll is absurd
To claim that they are the same as teleportation is also absurd.
No there is a big difference. Hydraulic Push, Awesome Blow, and Bull Rush all require CMB checks to perform. Force Punch does not. It surpasses that mechanic because that's how the spell is implicitly worded. There are lots of effects that break a grapple without a roll: Freedom of Movement, Gaseous Form, and the aforementioned dimensional effects. There's no reason why a 4th level spell can't for one turn do the exact same thing. Absurd is a subjective word that doesn't quantify into a rules discussion.
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To break a grapple, essentially you are pushing against the other person, hoping it's hard enough to break free. With this spell, you're still pushing, you're just using magic as well. It's not RAW, but as I don't see a clear answer in RAW for this, I'm going to share how I would adjudicate this:
The grapple is broken, but the grappler moves 5ft LESS than he normally would.
To break a grapple, you have to hit the SAME DC as to move someone 5ft with a bullrush. This spell, if you're able to cast it in the first place, expends at least that much energy. So the first 5ft of the spell just go to break the grapple. Any other movement remaining would be adjudicated as normal, and the damage done by the spell would be processed as normal.
Again, that's not RAW. That's just how I would adjudicate the interaction between this spell and a grapple.
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You can't cast Force Punch while grappled as it has somatic components.
Trekkie - You are ignoring a lot of rules here.
1) Being grappled does not preclude casting spells with Somatic Components. As long as the caster has one hand free, can cast spells.
There is a caster check, of course.
I think you are confusing this with Pinned.
2) Still spell feat. With that the caster does not need to make Somatic gestures.
3) There are a number of spell storing items that would not require Somatic or concentration checks. These typically have minimal caster level and saves, but can be done.