the problem with conjuration

[messy]

prompted by treantmonk's outstanding wizard guide.

here's my issue with conjuration battlefield control spells: they affect allies as well as enemies.

many of the conjuration spells that treantmonk rates well, such as grease, web, sleet storm, stinking cloud, and black tentacles, affect anyone, friend or foe.

on the other hand, spells like haste and slow affect exactly who you choose, making them much better options, IMO.

are conjuration spells really all that good for battlefield control?

[Nicos]

Yes they are that good even with that. Conjuration is very strong as it is, it doesn't really need to have more advantages.

[TriOmegaZero]

Absolutely. They require finesse and skill in placement, but they alter the battle no matter where you place them. It's up to you to make sure the alteration helps your party.

[Sammy T]

You just need to be...
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)
...tidy with your placement.

[Aratrok]

Consider casting them where the other guys are standing, not where your guys are standing.

[LazarX]

messy wrote:

prompted by treantmonk's outstanding wizard guide.

here's my issue with conjuration battlefield control spells: they affect allies as well as enemies.

many of the conjuration spells that treantmonk rates well, such as grease, web, sleet storm, stinking cloud, and black tentacles, affect anyone, friend or foe.

on the other hand, spells like haste and slow affect exactly who you choose, making them much better options, IMO.

are conjuration spells really all that good for battlefield control?

Absofreaking loot lee. Those spell are powerful and the fact that they affect everything in the area means you need to think and be strategic about placing them.

[DominusMegadeus]

Conjuration as a school has a number of power problems. Battlefield control being as powerful as it is, numerous and useful spells at all levels because of summoning, and being able to emulate other schools entirely (although Transmutation is even worse about its massive spell list at low levels}.

Summoning in particular is one of those things where, when you choose it, you don't really have to make a choice. I don't think any level of Summon Monster is entirely without powerful options.

I also dislike that it got healing when Necromancy is right there. Magic of Life and Death, my ass.

[Xexyz]

DominusMegadeus wrote:

I also dislike that it got healing when Necromancy is right there. Magic of Life and Death, my ass.

I hear you on this. Probably my least favorite change from 1st/2nd to 3.x editions.

[Dasrak]

This is a bit of an issue in CRPG's like the Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights series, where enemies and allies moved around between when you started casting and when you finished. You had to carefully predict where your enemy was going to be, and if you screwed up it was friendly-fire ahoy. If it wasn't a deal-breaker there, it certainly isn't going to be a deal-breaker in the neat and tidy turn-based game.

[Silent Saturn]

Evocation area spells like Fireball have much of the same problem, and that doesn't stop people from casting them, it only makes them consider where to cast them more carefully. Conjuration spells should be no different, provided your melee have enough tactical sense (and movement speed) to maneuver around the thing you've dropped onto the field.

[snejjj]

They're really good when your group's tactics exists and considers them. If your group is like mine and simply rushes in and everyone hits the enemy closest to him/her, most of them are probably (at least) a step worse than treantmonk rated them.

[kestral287]

snejjj wrote:

They're really good when your group's tactics exists and considers them. If your group is like mine and simply rushes in and everyone hits the enemy closest to him/her, most of them are probably (at least) a step worse than treantmonk rated them.

If your Fighter is stupid enough to charge into a mass of evil-looking black tentacles instead of walking around them, he's going to get killed in short order. Probably the first time he runs into an evil Wizard.

[Otherwhere]

Xexyz wrote:

DominusMegadeus wrote:

I also dislike that it got healing when Necromancy is right there. Magic of Life and Death, my ass.

I hear you on this. Probably my least favorite change from 1st/2nd to 3.x editions.

Yeah - what was up with that? WHY is Healing in the Conjuration school? Anyone know?

[snejjj]

kestral287 wrote:

snejjj wrote:

They're really good when your group's tactics exists and considers them. If your group is like mine and simply rushes in and everyone hits the enemy closest to him/her, most of them are probably (at least) a step worse than treantmonk rated them.

If your Fighter is stupid enough to charge into a mass of evil-looking black tentacles instead of walking around them, he's going to get killed in short order. Probably the first time he runs into an evil Wizard.

if only it were just the fighter, but it's also the rogue and the ranger...

Luckily they're not dumb enough to run into existing spells (except if there's no enemy they can reach without doing so), but usually one of them beats the wizard in initiative and the chance for good positioning of the spell goes out the window.
And yes, I expect it to become a problem when we reach level 5ish and/or we encounter a wizard in an unfavorable situation.

[MichaelCullen]

Not ideal, but the wizard can make sure they go first with a couple of self buffs. Anticipate peril and heightened awareness should make sure he goes first almost all of the time.

[Anzyr]

Otherwhere wrote:

Xexyz wrote:

DominusMegadeus wrote:

I also dislike that it got healing when Necromancy is right there. Magic of Life and Death, my ass.

I hear you on this. Probably my least favorite change from 1st/2nd to 3.x editions.

Yeah - what was up with that? WHY is Healing in the Conjuration school? Anyone know?

Because Necromancy is no longer the magic of life and death. It's the magic of evil and emo.