I've got a question as to whether some things stack via RAW.
So, first the level 8 ability of the vexing dodger rogue archetype grants the following rule: "At 8th level, when a vexing dodger attempts a dirty trick maneuver against a creature she's climbing, she gets a bonus on the combat maneuver check equal to the number of sneak attack dice she has."
second, the level 2 ability of the bounty hunter does the following: "At 2nd level, anytime a bounty hunter is able to deal sneak attack damage to a studied target, he can instead attempt to hamper the target. The bounty hunter must declare that he's using this ability before the attack roll is made. If the attack hits, it deals damage normally, but instead of rolling sneak attack damage, the bounty hunter can attempt a dirty trick combat maneuver against the studied target as a free action, adding 1 to the combat maneuver check for each die of the bounty hunter's sneak attack damage."
third, the feat surprise maneuvers gives the following bonus: " If you have sneak attack, when you attempt a combat maneuver check against a creature that you are flanking or that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC against your attack, you gain a bonus on the combat maneuver check that's equal to your number of sneak attack dice."
Now, my question is this: Am I correct in thinking that since the vexing dodger ability gives a blanket dirty trick bonus to climbed targets, the bounty hunter ability trades out sneak dice for a bonus, and the surprise maneuvers feat adds a bonus to any combat maneuver made against a flanked or flat footed foe, that they would all stack if all conditions are met, as each provides a different bonus in different but not-mutually-exclusive circumstances? Therefore could a rogue9/slayer3 PC who's climbing and flanking a studied target be able to hit that target and make a free dirty trick maneuver at a +18 bonus?
So, for the bounty hunter it may only be a bonus equal to the amount of sneak attack dice provided by the slayer class.
Dirty Trick (Ex): At 2nd level, anytime a bounty hunter is able to deal sneak attack damage to a studied target, he can instead attempt to hamper the target. The bounty hunter must declare that he's using this ability before the attack roll is made. If the attack hits, it deals damage normally, but instead of rolling sneak attack damage, the bounty hunter can attempt a dirty trick combat maneuver against the studied target as a free action, adding 1 to the combat maneuver check for each die of the bounty hunter's sneak attack damage. This combat maneuver does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces the slayer talent gained at 2nd level.
I'm not sure if that's intended or not.
It may also heavily depend on how your interpret this FAQ:
Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?
No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.
I'm honestly not sure of the answer here.
I would say no. These all seem like circumstance bonuses to me. Circumstance bonuses stack, unless they are all coming form the same source. In this case, you're getting them all from your sneak attack ability. As a GM, I would say no. But I'm also curious as to what others think.
I would say no. These all seem like circumstance bonuses to me. Circumstance bonuses stack, unless they are all coming form the same source. In this case, you're getting them all from your sneak attack ability. As a GM, I would say no. But I'm also curious as to what others think.
I don't think that sneak attack is the source here, but rather the three sources are the climbing, the attack, or the flanking/flat footed status respectively. Sneak attack seems to me to be the measurement by which the abilities progress, but not the source of each. Then again, im not too familiar with the meaning of the term "source" within pathfinder rules, so I'm sure I could be missing something.
If, however, none of these stack, then what is the point of taking the skulking slayer, vexing dodger, or bounty hunter archetypes when their strongest abilities are comparable to or weaker in effectiveness than a single feat that they cannot stack with?
Well, you wouldn't have to spend a feat on it.
Not all archetypes are meant to be better. And an individual ability doesn't measure the entire worth of an archetype either.
I would point out the feat Surprise Maneuver requires Combat Expertise as a prerequisite. Vexing Dodger is the replacement ability for Improved Uncanny Dodge. And the Dirty Trick ability of the Slayer is replacing a talent (a rogues talent, essentially). One of those talents could be a feat (perhaps even Surprise Maneuvers). These are all meant to be roughly equivalent to a feat. You can use your Rogue Talents to pick up Uncanny Dodge despite sacrificing it to get the abilities of the Vexing Dodger. So it's all a matter of customizing to get your version of your character.
But a good rule of thumb is generally speaking, bonuses of a given type don't stack. And I would say Rules as Intended that they don't stack.
A +18 bonus before ever even getting to your ability and BAB score is pretty insane. Your characters CMB with 10 in all scores would be a +9. You'd be looking at +27 on that dirty trick. Sorry, you also get Improved Dirty Trick feat, which gives a +2 to dirty tricks. +29. Add in say a 14 strength (let alone if you add Dex instead from Agile Maneuvers feat) and you're looking at +31. That's an extraordinarily high base before a roll.
A fighter of level 12 would be running with a +14 before his ability scores for most CMB rolls, assuming he has the relative feat. Say a two-handed weapon fighter specializing in Sunder (Imp Sunder, Greater Sunder), he gets +19 (+1/4 lvls, +4 for feat, +12 BAB) before his strength modifier.
It just seems unrealistically high compared to the other classes, until you don't triple the sneak attack affect. Take away 12 from 31, you get +19, the same score as the sundering specialist fighter. Sorry, take away the 2 strength I gave, so +17, but still. Much closer to balanced instead of in a different area code.
Eh, why not stack?
First of all, untyped bonuses from different sources stack. They're definitely not circumstance bonuses.
Second of all, the FAQ ruling above only addresses ability bonuses being added to other things (e.g. Add your Strength bonus to intimidate checks). It doesn't reference lots of other things that can be used to determine the scale of an effect: character level, hit dice, caster level, number of sneak attack dice, etc. I get not letting two abilities that add your Strength bonus to something not stacking. . . but extrapolating this to not letting things stack that reference your character level or number of sneak attack dice is beyond what the FAQ addresses.
Third, compare dirty trick to disarm. At fairly low levels, you can get a character focused around disarm having a pretty much "guaranteed to hit" bonus. The comparison to sunder isn't factoring that you don't use your weapon to accomplish the dirty trick. . . so you don't add in weapon bonuses. Also, remember that since weapons aren't used to do this, you need Agile Maneuvers to apply Dexterity to the CMB roll. With this particular rogue 9/slayer 3 build, it's unlikely that you're going full-out Strength to do it. Comparing this to classes like fighters that use Strength as a primary stat is a little misleading.
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll.
Considering the negatives (not a substitution for melee attacks/only one dirty trick per round/you don't add in weapon bonuses/has to be done in melee) and what the dirty trick is accomplishing (relatively minor status ailment, compared to prone, disarmed or destroyed weapons/undone with an action that doesn't provoke), I don't think this is a big deal.
Fourth, you're doing (*gasp*) multiclassing, which is definitely not cause for concern given Pathfinder class scaling.
I would point out that the bonus from Dirty Trick ability of the Slayer specifies "instead of" in place of sneak attack. To me, that seems like an ability akin to a combat feat replacing sneak attack damage (ie Pernicious Stab). In addition, if you look at any of the abilities that enhance sneak attack (Bleeding Attack, Befuddling Strike, etc), they all specify only one such talent can be applied to an individual attack. This implies, strongly to me, that the bonus should only be applied once.