Advice on ninja / Magus magic weapon upgrades


Advice

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It sounds like you are Way above WBL? That is not nessesarily a problem but it makes advicing a little hard. For damage you need to decide on one weapon and put feats and gold in that in stead of spreding it out. For theme just get all kind of different moves and weapons if that is the theme.
Edit: i Think using forgotten trick to get a combat feat is a poor deal, 4 rounds of some feat for 2 ki points looks like a expencive version of Martial flex.


TomatoFettuccini wrote:
Think Brotherhood of Nod's stealth tank combined with the Obelisk of Light

Look up RenegadeX, it is a free remake of CnC Renegade, you might like it! Love the reference though. My question is though, what is the theme you are looking for? I still think Katanas go well, and anything with a high crit rate and the burst energy types just for the fact that it keeps the theme of blades and magic.


Cap. Darling wrote:

It sounds like you are Way above WBL? That is not nessesarily a problem but it makes advicing a little hard. For damage you need to decide on one weapon and put feats and gold in that in stead of spreding it out. For theme just get all kind of different moves and weapons if that is the theme.

Edit: i Think using forgotten trick to get a combat feat is a poor deal, 4 rounds of some feat for 2 ki points looks like a expencive version of Martial flex.

Please see

this comment

this comment

this comment

and this comment.

Pay particular attention to the parts in bold type.

I have detailed what I'm looking for more than once, and detailed my character more than once as well. Please read the thread before commenting. Pay particular attention to the parts in bold type.

C'mon guys. At least read the OP before chiming in.


Kaiin Retsu wrote:
TomatoFettuccini wrote:
Think Brotherhood of Nod's stealth tank combined with the Obelisk of Light
Look up RenegadeX, it is a free remake of CnC Renegade, you might like it! Love the reference though. My question is though, what is the theme you are looking for? I still think Katanas go well, and anything with a high crit rate and the burst energy types just for the fact that it keeps the theme of blades and magic.

Thanks for joining the conversation Kaiin, but you've been part of the thread since almost the beginning. I've been pretty clear about what I'm looking for. Just scroll up a bit.


TomatoFettuccini wrote:


I see what you mean. I didn't think to check the tables. But yes, nothing in the description says melee only. And agreed, i don't see why you couldn't either. Arrows of ghost touch? Seems reasonable to me.

Going this route would be cheaper. I also like the image of sticking a net in a pot full of boiling goop to "treat" it for the next ghostly encounter.

Grand Lodge

I'll say at least make sure your following the rules.

A you CAN NOT spell combat and TWF. You must have your off hand free to cast.

2nd I read something about being in the shadows and sneak attack. First in low light...if you have no special vision low light offers 20% concelment/miss chance to all your targets. Any concealment turn Sneak attack off. The darker it gets the worst SA becomes without special vision.

3rd: If you want different weapons to cover different defenses look at an adamantine slashing weapon and a MW. cold iron b/P weapon like a morning star. For ranged go with a bow because unlike a crossbow you don't waste time reloading. Get special arrows. You now have about 4 weapons enough to get you through whatever you have need of.

Lastly a person doesn't have to tank character effenicy to roleplay. This means you don't have to take sub par crap to make a character accomplish roleplay. Pathfinder is a combat game as much as a roleplay game. Just not caring about combat effiency will surely get you or someone else killed eventually.

Also I'd stop getting mad at people here trying to help. They see your build is terribly sub par. Taking 2 classes without full BaB as a twf is mechanically suicide. Taking magus levels as a twf is laughable. I read how you claim your DM is accusing you of munchkin but your damage is so laughable and the opposite of munchkin. Your DM only needs to follow the rules to see you can't TWF and Spell combat. That's a huge thing.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You can Spellstrike with TWF. You can't Spell Combat with it, but Spellstrike has nothing to do with casting. Just to keep the terms straight.

Grand Lodge

Ah yes edited and fixed. Good catch. Thanks.

Still point remains the same. TWF and Magus do not mix.


TWF can be problematic with a Magus, but you can always get a Blade Boot as a 2nd weapon or have Improved Unarmed strike. Still leaves the offhand for spellcasting.


TomatoFettuccini wrote:
Kaiin Retsu wrote:
TomatoFettuccini wrote:
Think Brotherhood of Nod's stealth tank combined with the Obelisk of Light
Look up RenegadeX, it is a free remake of CnC Renegade, you might like it! Love the reference though. My question is though, what is the theme you are looking for? I still think Katanas go well, and anything with a high crit rate and the burst energy types just for the fact that it keeps the theme of blades and magic.
Thanks for joining the conversation Kaiin, but you've been part of the thread since almost the beginning. I've been pretty clear about what I'm looking for. Just scroll up a bit.

Lol I know that, but I meant like what part of the theme do you want specifically? You dual wield while having the options to do other kinds of damage. You want versatility. What kind of versatility? What do you want to broaden more than you already have? If you do not have a specific part of the build you want to build off of, I do not know what else I can say. Of course, I still suggest getting Darkleaf Quilted Cloth armor, I think you will find in the end, no matter what enhancements you add to your armor, it will be a bit more powerful than Darkleaf Leather.


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Ah yes edited and fixed. Good catch. Thanks.

Still point remains the same. TWF and Magus do not mix.

They can. There are some interesting builds involving Frostbite that use one weapon + Spell Combat, then next round mix in unarmed strikes or a second weapon to deliver more Frostbites than are normally doable. Since using another Spell Combat will override your remaining Frostbite charges, at the higher levels this is a decent way to maximize your spell efficiency, and it gives you more endurance than the norm.

That's not this build, mind, but this build is far off the well-built track. The OP's got a heavy dose of Stormwind in him and isn't going to budge on his concept. Fighting him on that is pointless.


Cap. Darling wrote:

It sounds like you are Way above WBL? That is not nessesarily a problem but it makes advicing a little hard. For damage you need to decide on one weapon and put feats and gold in that in stead of spreding it out. For theme just get all kind of different moves and weapons if that is the theme.

Edit: i Think using forgotten trick to get a combat feat is a poor deal, 4 rounds of some feat for 2 ki points looks like a expencive version of Martial flex.

Good luck.


TomatoFettuccini wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:

It sounds like you are Way above WBL? That is not nessesarily a problem but it makes advicing a little hard. For damage you need to decide on one weapon and put feats and gold in that in stead of spreding it out. For theme just get all kind of different moves and weapons if that is the theme.

Edit: i Think using forgotten trick to get a combat feat is a poor deal, 4 rounds of some feat for 2 ki points looks like a expencive version of Martial flex.

Please see

this comment

this comment

this comment

and this comment.

Pay particular attention to the parts in bold type.

I have detailed what I'm looking for more than once, and detailed my character more than once as well. Please read the thread before commenting. Pay particular attention to the parts in bold type.

C'mon guys. At least read the OP before chiming in.

Good luck.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
kestral287 wrote:


They can. There are some interesting builds involving Frostbite that use one weapon + Spell Combat, then next round mix in unarmed strikes or a second weapon to deliver more Frostbites than are normally doable. Since using another Spell Combat will override your remaining Frostbite charges, at the higher levels this is a decent way to maximize your spell efficiency, and it gives you more endurance than the norm.

Yeah, I was thinking some spiked gauntlets or a cestus might work for something like that. A Glove of Storing or shield for bashery might be options, too. Even a bare hand delivering touch attacks seems like it'd do fine, especially with some sneak dice on top of it.


kestral287 wrote:
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Ah yes edited and fixed. Good catch. Thanks.

Still point remains the same. TWF and Magus do not mix.

They can. There are some interesting builds involving Frostbite that use one weapon + Spell Combat, then next round mix in unarmed strikes or a second weapon to deliver more Frostbites than are normally doable. Since using another Spell Combat will override your remaining Frostbite charges, at the higher levels this is a decent way to maximize your spell efficiency, and it gives you more endurance than the norm.

That's not this build, mind, but this build is far off the well-built track. The OP's got a heavy dose of Stormwind in him and isn't going to budge on his concept. Fighting him on that is pointless.

Thank you for understanding what I'm after and being the only person who has been remotely on my side.

To be honest, I don't even know why I bother asking in online forums, because everyone is fixated on min-maxing or DPR, and when I ask for something that isn't that, people lose their minds. They become fanatical.

And yes, as you said, TWF and magus do mix as long as you use spells with uses/level like Frostbite and Chill Touch (which is even in the FAQ).


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

I'll say at least make sure your following the rules.

A you CAN NOT spell combat and TWF. You must have your off hand free to cast.

2nd I read something about being in the shadows and sneak attack. First in low light...if you have no special vision low light offers 20% concelment/miss chance to all your targets. Any concealment turn Sneak attack off. The darker it gets the worst SA becomes without special vision.

3rd: If you want different weapons to cover different defenses look at an adamantine slashing weapon and a MW. cold iron b/P weapon like a morning star. For ranged go with a bow because unlike a crossbow you don't waste time reloading. Get special arrows. You now have about 4 weapons enough to get you through whatever you have need of.

Lastly a person doesn't have to tank character effenicy to roleplay. This means you don't have to take sub par crap to make a character accomplish roleplay. Pathfinder is a combat game as much as a roleplay game. Just not caring about combat effiency will surely get you or someone else killed eventually.

Also I'd stop getting mad at people here trying to help. They see your build is terribly sub par. Taking 2 classes without full BaB as a twf is mechanically suicide. Taking magus levels as a twf is laughable. I read how you claim your DM is accusing you of munchkin but your damage is so laughable and the opposite of munchkin. Your DM only needs to follow the rules to see you can't TWF and Spell combat. That's a huge thing.

You'd know this if you had read any of the thread: when using spellstrike, Sneak Attack, and TWF, but I can reliably dole out 12-15d6+10 per round, a lot more when I nova, at +12 to hit. I'm not going to tell you how, though, because I know you'll explode trying to figure out, and because that's not what this thread is about.

I wouldn't say he's underpowered.

Grand Lodge

You where not the talking about unarmed strikes. You asked about a pair of weapons. A pair of weapons insinuated you plan to be swinging 2 weapons and not unarmed strikes. I never saw IUS on your feats. So I was taking it as hold a weapon in both hands. Sure you can waste time juggling weapons to make it work but most players loath watching others waste time while they are being beaten down.

I still recommend a 1 weapon and amulet of mighty fist with spellstoring. You then can load up the amulet and still fight as a single weapon. No time lost of juggling weapons and you can enchant your main weapon with stronger enchants.


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

You where not the talking about unarmed strikes. You asked about a pair of weapons. A pair of weapons insinuated you plan to be swinging 2 weapons and not unarmed strikes. I never saw IUS on your feats. So I was taking it as hold a weapon in both hands. Sure you can waste time juggling weapons to make it work but most players loath watching others waste time while they are being beaten down.

I still recommend a 1 weapon and amulet of mighty fist with spellstoring. You then can load up the amulet and still fight as a single weapon. No time lost of juggling weapons and you can enchant your main weapon with stronger enchants.

If you had read the OP, you'd know that he has cesti. I never said anything about IUS. I don't have IUS. Nor do I have natural weapons. Why would recommend something which specifically requires IUS?

Posters like you are the reason I get annoyed.


Cap. Darling wrote:
TomatoFettuccini wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:

It sounds like you are Way above WBL? That is not nessesarily a problem but it makes advicing a little hard. For damage you need to decide on one weapon and put feats and gold in that in stead of spreding it out. For theme just get all kind of different moves and weapons if that is the theme.

Edit: i Think using forgotten trick to get a combat feat is a poor deal, 4 rounds of some feat for 2 ki points looks like a expencive version of Martial flex.

Please see

this comment

this comment

this comment

and this comment.

Pay particular attention to the parts in bold type.

I have detailed what I'm looking for more than once, and detailed my character more than once as well. Please read the thread before commenting. Pay particular attention to the parts in bold type.

C'mon guys. At least read the OP before chiming in.

Good luck.

Thanks. Do you have any weapon ideas?


I was commenting on the Way you was responding to folk that try to give you what you want.
And you told us that you were trolled on another forum. Pehaps you are ruining it for your self with your bad attitude?
Feel free to disregard my advice.


I'm hoping this thread continues. I hope to stumble upon some items, feats or magic that my opportunisitic magus overlooked or didn't know of.

One thing I dud at lower levels when my chill touch was about to expire was cast true strike at the end of spell combat, quickdraw out a pair of bolas and launch that at another enemy. I since have retrained quickdraw thiugh and have not used that trick for many levels now.


Cap. Darling wrote:

I was commenting on the Way you was responding to folk that try to give you what you want.

And you told us that you were trolled on another forum. Pehaps you are ruining it for your self with your bad attitude?
Feel free to disregard my advice.

If my attitude seems bad it could be from getting trolled by people who tell me I have a bad attitude when I get annoyed with people who don't read the OP, follow the thread, or understand and follow forum guidelines regarding such things.

I may be a newbie to Paizo's forums, but I'm not even remotely new to forums.

I came here from reddit, on the advice that it was much friendlier and would glean more useful information from the community. If you've been reading my posts, I have been friendly and courteous until it seems I'm starting to get trolled.

I have politely and repeatedly asked people to read the OP, which, if I know only one thing about online forums, this is it: read the OP and lurk a while before posting. Hardly anyone here has, including Mr. Thistlefoot and yourself.

Somehow I'm the bad guy for asking people to obey the rules and stay on topic.

You people crack me up.


Eigengrau wrote:

I'm hoping this thread continues. I hope to stumble upon some items, feats or magic that my opportunisitic magus overlooked or didn't know of.

One thing I dud at lower levels when my chill touch was about to expire was cast true strike at the end of spell combat, quickdraw out a pair of bolas and launch that at another enemy. I since have retrained quickdraw thiugh and have not used that trick for many levels now.

I'm working on it, Eigengrau, but I could use a little support from anyone else (like you! :)) in the thread with similar goals to keep wayward conversations in line.


Experiment 626 wrote:
TomatoFettuccini wrote:


I see what you mean. I didn't think to check the tables. But yes, nothing in the description says melee only. And agreed, i don't see why you couldn't either. Arrows of ghost touch? Seems reasonable to me.
Going this route would be cheaper. I also like the image of sticking a net in a pot full of boiling goop to "treat" it for the next ghostly encounter.

That's kind of neat. I like the theme, too.


It's 200 GP/attack. It's terrible, unless you are using it for shurikens or arrows.

Which you intend to do. So nevermind.


TomatoFettuccini wrote:
I came here from reddit, on the advice that it was much friendlier and would glean more useful information from the community. If you've been reading my posts, I have been friendly and courteous until it seems I'm starting to get trolled.

Now, let's be honest to all parties: that's not really true. Or, if it is, you have a really, really thin skin. You're very quick to go off on people; instead of considerately asking people to read the OP you jump immediately to chewing them out. The first time that happened, in your second line you called the poster "pretty dumb". That's not friendly and courteous. After that you ranted on people not reading the OP-- and it was a rant.

And to be frank... yeah, that does have a lot to do with your lack of success here I'd think. Heck, I didn't even see you respond to any of my actual suggestions past pointing out that Merciful Saps is redundant, or more than a few reasons behind some other people's suggestions (bow vs. crossbow being the obvious). People certainly should read the opening post, but as someone who followed the thread from the opening post and read every one... I gave up trying to do what you wanted, because what you say you want and what your actions say you want are two entirely different things. You say you want help. Your actions are picking fights with everybody who doesn't help you and ignoring a lot of the help you get. These two things do not add up.

Grand Lodge

I gave that to you...you cry no one reads your posts.

I told you choose 2 melee weapons one adamantine and one MW cold iron. I typically go with my main weapon adamantine main weapon and a morningstar as my coldiron, bludgeoning, and piercing damage.

Then grab a bow over crossbow to not have to waste time reloading.

Lastly a amulet of spellstoring mighty fist so you can free action deliver another touch spell. Saving you more time.

Or you just go full spellstoring weapons and not care about spell combat.


LoneKnave wrote:

It's 200 GP/attack. It's terrible, unless you are using it for shurikens or arrows.

Which you intend to do. So nevermind.

Heh. So many people object to throwaways. 200gp is cheap for an encounter, especially if you're trying to hit incorporeal.


kestral287 wrote:
TomatoFettuccini wrote:
I came here from reddit, on the advice that it was much friendlier and would glean more useful information from the community. If you've been reading my posts, I have been friendly and courteous until it seems I'm starting to get trolled.

Now, let's be honest to all parties: that's not really true. Or, if it is, you have a really, really thin skin. You're very quick to go off on people; instead of considerately asking people to read the OP you jump immediately to chewing them out. The first time that happened, in your second line you called the poster "pretty dumb". That's not friendly and courteous. After that you ranted on people not reading the OP-- and it was a rant.

And to be frank... yeah, that does have a lot to do with your lack of success here I'd think. Heck, I didn't even see you respond to any of my actual suggestions past pointing out that Merciful Saps is redundant, or more than a few reasons behind some other people's suggestions (bow vs. crossbow being the obvious). People certainly should read the opening post, but as someone who followed the thread from the opening post and read every one... I gave up trying to do what you wanted, because what you say you want and what your actions say you want are two entirely different things. You say you want help. Your actions are picking fights with everybody who doesn't help you and ignoring a lot of the help you get. These two things do not add up.

You're right, my language does seem inflammatory. I suppose I've been sensitized by the level of trolling I got on reddit.

I'm sorry to you, kestral, Deighton, Friulan, Cap. Darling. I know you're trying to help.

I suppose I've spent too much time in troll-infested forums of late and I'm making you suffer.

I'll try to moderate my language. Really, I'm a decent guy, but I do get frustrated fairly easily. I sometimes forget that there are other people out there in keyboardland.

Grand Lodge

Hey man its alright. I understand frustration.

I want you to be happy with your character through his entire life. I have a friend of mine who would try to build roleplay concept and it work in the early levels but come end game his builds always fell short and either got him hefty ressurection costs (hurting him and the group further). Or he would just become outshined by everyone else and started to feel like dead weight. Those two things I do not wish anyone to endure for the months it takes to run a campaign. After a while he finally asked for help from the rest of the community and now is much more satisfied as a player. I believe many people on these boards are like that.

This is actually a really good community. Plenty of very experienced and mathematically gifted people here. Most here are not munchkins but they pick the stronger options when building a character.

I'm sorry if you feel your question has not been answered but the main consensus on the weapons is go with just a few main ones and just get non magical ones for your flavor. Even most ninja choose a special weapon to master even when they could use many different ones. It also will let you put all that extra gold into better items.

When it comes to armor mithral chain all the way...you can have it under your robes or paint it dark blue like ninjas. Ninja typically didn't wear black it was a dark blue.


I think I have to post this disclaimer: When I'm explaining things, I get more formal and verbose. This is a result of my academic background, and is even more pronounced when I'm writing. I'm not trying to come across as condescending or anything along those lines; it's just my style of communicating.

I'm not really worried about long-term satisfaction/dissatisfaction, as I doubt our campaign will take us higher than level 14 or so. If we're dealing less damage at a given level than we should be, none of us are bothered as we're not building for PFS, and our DM adjusts our encounter CR to suit.

So perhaps now you can understand that this, what seems to me to be nearly fanatic focus everyone has on mechanical and numeric perfection, is totally irrelevant to everyone in my group and why I was becoming irked. I'm asking for creative, blue sky ideas on weapons, not build advice. When people tell me why my character won't make it to higher levels when they don't even know anything about the campaign I'm in, how my DM structures his games, the makeup of our party, how we're equipped, or how we work together. You may understand how I get could irked when someone with perfect ignorance of everything other than what I've posted here tells me I'm ruining my game. It's arrogant and insulting, on top of asking for chocolate and getting salted licorice instead.

Moving forward, let me try it from another angle to see if I can convey my intent.

Character concept

Would anyone consider a bard, or a rogue, to be an imperfect class?

Having seen the evolution of classes around the rogue and how many of them have poached what used to be rogue-only territory (such things as Trap sense, skill monkeying, and sneak attack), I could certainly see how many people would consider the rogue, at best, a nerfed class, and at worst, a defunct class, suitable really only for dipping, and only barely for that. The bard is a more subtle class, not the best at anything, but also not the worst. Bards also do not deal out huge damage, have a limited caster list (especially so, being a spontaneous caster), and a broad range of skills and knowledge. But no one would consider them to be flawed, just less-powerful than other classes.

This is kind of where I was going with how I built my character, a second-best at many things, but from a different approach than the bard. I initially built it as a Ninja/Wizard, but I liked the synergy of Ninja/Magus better. Plus I liked the idea of a nova-y ninja.

The bard acts as secondary caster, secondary healer, secondary ranged combatant, secondary/ melee combatant, secondary rogue. He is all of these things and none. Need a buff? Here you go. Need some extra blades in combat? Coming up. Can you give me some hit points? Sure, be healthy.

Recognition of tradeoffs

Am I limiting his already limited casting? Absolutely. Does this affect his ability to be effective in combat? Sometimes, yes, but generally, no. I know it seems as though it would be very limited, but I try to be creative and not rely solely on weapons. We also use the environment, in addition to various magic items like wands, to boost our combat capability creatively. How do I make up for lesser combat capability? Buffs, debuffs, heals, and distractions in rounds I can't do damage. Knocking down trees onto enemies. Setting traps. Causing cave-ins. There's more to ways to fight other than with swords, and more to Pathfinder than combat.

Until the departure of our barbarian, he was the secondary/tertiary melee guy, the scout, the face, the sole caster, and the only healer. Now, because the party has changed and we have a ranger, he is now the primary/secondary melee combatant (ranger is an archer), secondary scout, secondary face, primary healer, the only infiltrator, and party crafter. Why? I let the story influence his build. We needed better weapons and items than we were getting. My magus, who by writ of the class description, would probably want to remedy that by learning how to make what he wants if he cannot acquire it. The realm we're in is fairly shadowy, letting me make extensive use of Sneak Attack, courtesy of my darkvision (dhampir). He's the second-most stealthy character in the party (the new ranger changed that, but various skill buffs make it a close second). I specifically intended him to have various redundancies as well.

Background

He's a ninja because of his "asian" heritage, and because he duped his family into thinking he was becoming a monk while learning to be an assassin. Ditto for magus vs wizard; he came from a rich and noble family and showed the knack, so his family sent him to the arcane college, because money, as well as having been raised around men-at-arms for the same reason.

He's a dhampir because of the usual story, mom bit while pregnant, father killed defending mother, blah blah. Raised by his uncle, and was then exiled because he was found out to be a smuggler, something which brought shame to his (actually) noble family.

I hope this explains why I don't think there's any issues with Hondo. The build of the character suits his backstory, and is influenced by what happens in the story.

With that in mind, I hope this alleviates the general confusion experienced by everyone about the why and the method to the madness.

Why this particular choice of classes/levels/feats?

It's not that I'm a genius; it's not that I don't appreciate the feedback. It's that what I'm asking for is being largely ignored in favor of a dogged focus on "making the build right". I know how to build a character correctly; just follow the template and read some guides, pick a feat tree and stick to it. *yawn* I've done all of that.

I'm mad-scientisting here, trying to create a Frankenstein's monster of a build. I'm bored with the standard builds and the archtypes. I am looking for similarly mad-scientist ideas. There have been a couple of promising ideas, but most have been pretty standard, nothing that anyone with the source books could puzzle out on their own.

I don't care if the ideas live or die, just that they come. I'm looking for inspiring, non-obvioius, creative combos: hydraulic push and grease; flaming sphere/fire trail and pyrotechnics; aqueous orb and lightning bolt/hideous laughter/freezing sphere; frostbite and rime spell; or obscuring mist/acid fog, dancing lights, and ghost sound. Using Gloomblind bolts to heal my Dhampir.

My Own Errors

Perhaps that should have been my tack from the start, asking for creative, non-obvious, sky-is-the-limit ideas. But I could swear that's what I've been doing from the start.

I'm hoping this doesn't come off as a rant, because I'm not trying to rant here, just clarify. I feel that may have been the issue and I may just start a new thread with a more clarified title, more obvious goals, and a clearer acknowledgement of the "flawed" nature of my character and to help clear the air a little.

I'm considering posting my character, in toto, online, just so everyone can see it. Stats are one thing, a fully-equipped, kitted, and backstoried character another.

TL;DR The character is an experiment as a sort-of bard, but from another approach. I'm a mad scientist trying to create a monster. Please create monstrous weapons and items with me. Mechanical perfection not necessary.

PS: I might have been a bit of a |)ick. I'm sorry.


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Hey man its alright. I understand frustration.

I want you to be happy with your character through his entire life. I have a friend of mine who would try to build roleplay concept and it work in the early levels but come end game his builds always fell short and either got him hefty ressurection costs (hurting him and the group further). Or he would just become outshined by everyone else and started to feel like dead weight. Those two things I do not wish anyone to endure for the months it takes to run a campaign. After a while he finally asked for help from the rest of the community and now is much more satisfied as a player. I believe many people on these boards are like that.

This is actually a really good community. Plenty of very experienced and mathematically gifted people here. Most here are not munchkins but they pick the stronger options when building a character.

I'm sorry if you feel your question has not been answered but the main consensus on the weapons is go with just a few main ones and just get non magical ones for your flavor. Even most ninja choose a special weapon to master even when they could use many different ones. It also will let you put all that extra gold into better items.

When it comes to armor mithral chain all the way...you can have it under your robes or paint it dark blue like ninjas. Ninja typically didn't wear black it was a dark blue.

I understand what the general consensus is. I'm not after general consensus. I'm looking for fringe whacko consensus. I'm more at home with fringe whackos. :)

As for feeling like dead weight or anything else: again, it's not a concern. I'm not marrying him, and I don't have any problem retiring him when it's time. There are plenty of fish in the sea. :)

As a point of note for role-play: when was the last time you ever met anyone who was efficiently optimized around a single career path, and how common are those people? Most people you meet are flawed, most deeply so, and are a mess of contradictions.

This is why I have no issue with "eventual high-level nerf", why I don't understand why people don't understand, and my level of frustration. People keep telling me, "He's flawed!" I keep answering, "I know. I'm fine with it. Please suggest crazy weapon builds." and they all including you, ignore the fact that to me, that is irrelevant.

Here's another analogy: it's as though I started dating someone everyone thought wasn't attractive in the same way I think they're attractive, like she has odd looks or a weird hairstyle or small boobs or whatever. Everyone is trying to convince me that I'd be happier with a girl with conventional looks, "the Rachel" haircut, and 36DDs, when I've been telling everyone I like bold noses, pear-shapes, and pixie cuts. I'm asking for Bonnie Rotten and I'm getting Haley Cuoco.

I do like your idea of painted mithril. :) One of my items is Sleeves of Many Garments. I can make his clothes anything he needs, be they midnight blue or urban camouflage.


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I'm actually going to try to explain some things from our side of the screen.

First off: The Rogue is actually considered to be a terrible class. The Bard is not, because it's certainly not second-best at everything. It does a lot of things very well, but it's easily one of, if not the, strongest buff classes in the game-- closest competition is the Skald, which a full party has to build around. You want to be a Bard; with a specialty that you can always rely on but capable of tactical flexibility when needed. You never want to be a Rogue; not good enough at anything to contribute to the game meaningfully. What Fruian is ultimately getting at is that, in the long run, your setup has a noticeable chance of being the Rogue (really depending on how you build and spread things going forward and, of course, specifics of your game).

That said, for the sake of getting it on the table: you could certainly-- easily-- rebuild this character as a full Magus and fill all of the roles and concepts you are now. Which is really the problem that a lot of people are pointing out, and what I was getting at when I mentioned earlier that you had a "heavy dose of Stormwind": the Stormwind Fallacy is the idea that 'roleplay' and 'rollplay' are inherently contradictory, when to be honest... that's nowhere near true. You could certainly build your character to be themeatically identical but far superior mechanically.

For example: you note that you like to use the environment. A straight Magus can do that too... while also fighting better when it does come time to cross blades directly. A clever player can be clever no matter what character he has on the table.

The same is true of the class combination as is tied to backstory; not only can you pretty easily flavor the Magus Asian if you want, that's pretty much what the Kensai is built for. And, as noted, Magi make pretty good Ninjas.

So that's all of that.

In the future, this is what I would do in your position (and have in the past; I've been in a similar boat. And yes, when I asked "what's a good first-level spell beyond these, and I don't like Grease", more than a few people suggested Grease. It comes with the territory. Some of those same people also offered me excellent advice):

1. Start by explaining exactly what you're looking for. In particular, provide the parameters of what you're looking for. Relevant details help, but keep them relevant. We frankly didn't need to know your build. All we needed to know is Dex-based TWF limited by Spell Combat and we could have gone from there. At the same time, explaining the fighting style would help-- for example, Frostbite's mention in your initial post made it sound like something you were considering, not something you were actively using.

2. If the choices you currently have aren't obvious, explaining them helps. Frankly I'm still incredibly confused about why you have the sais. Or the dagger.

3. Later on, if you feel it helps, lay out the build. Realize though that you're posting a build in the advice forum, and that can carry baggage. Be ready to accept that baggage.

4. Courtesy goes a long way. If somebody gets your hackles up, sit back for a moment and answer it later. And if you're not inclined to follow a particular piece of advice, explain why. That can be a big help to us.

That said, I'm going to try again on the thoughts that I gave. Note this point: a fair bit of this advice is going to be geared toward trying to unify your concept with the game's mechanics:

  • You mentioned being confused about why people suggested a bow over a crossbow, because their damage is relatively comparable. This stems from reloads. A bow is a free action to reload, while a crossbow is a move (at best). This means that come your first iterative (I assume next level), you're looking at pulling roughly double damage from a longbow. Now, neither one has good damage at this point, but you might as well make your action mean something more than "I shoot once for three damage then reload" to something with twenty or thirty times that much HP.

  • Keen your wakizashis (or katanas, if you still want to make that swap). This is mechanically strong and fits into how these weapons are commonly envisioned.

  • Don't use Dispelling. Outside of some niche uses, Dispelling sucks. Use Spell Storing. You can throw Dispel Magic into a Spell Storing weapon, but you can also throw anything else you want into it. You get the same thematic effect, but are better off mechanically.

  • In a related note: Spell Storing will be your best friend. Put it on everything that can legally have it. Frigid Touch armor is awesome, Shocking Grasp/Frigid Touch/Vampiric Touch weapons even more so.

    If your GM would allow it I'd almost want to suggest 3.5's Bloodstone weapon ability; it's a Spell Storing that's locked into Vampiric Touch, but the spell is auto-Empowered. Seems up your alley. Keep it on your backup weapon if you take it. Not something to take for a long while though, and honestly still probably behind Spell Storing.

  • Cesti: get one Adamantine. Being able to punch through a door or wall or tree is fits into your 'control the environment' standard, as well as dealing with DR that you're otherwise going to have trouble with for a long while.

  • Sais: Why are these here? You've said that you don't use them much, if ever. If you're really a fan of the Thundering/Shocking combination, move them onto your wakizashis. Otherwise, I'd ditch them; ideally outright but worst-case find some new weapon to utilize that grants capabilities that you don't normally have (the saps, for example, though see below).

  • Saps: How much do you anticipate using these? It might be worthwhile to instead find a way to avoid taking the -4 to deal nonlethal damage with a wakizashi. That's going to be a campaign-specific thing though.

  • The Shrinking property: Talk to your GM about how the weapon shrinking to the size of a dagger interacts with Sleight of Hand checks; see if it gets a +2 like a true dagger. If so, Shrinking is dirt-cheap and should go on everything you can reasonably put it on.

  • Dueling: Throw it on a Cestus. Going first can mean going last, and if that's not the sneaky-ninja-guy way I don't know what is.

    On a more general question: are you going to keep the two classes mixed going forward, or favor one of the other? Further, how are you on feat slots? That can change your options a bit.


  • In reverse order:

    Probably Magus from here on in, with a possible dip in a full BAB class later for reasons.

    On my list already. :) As is adamantine.

    Agreed, dirt cheap, but situationally useful. Still, 500gp..

    I disagree. I'm already -2 vs a full BAB character. Adding another -4 seems the height of foolishness, when I can just switch weapons, then get Sap Adept through Forgotten trick. Although, merciful does the same thing as using a sap, except for the cost in gold and a weapon permanently welded to merciful.

    I haven't used them much, I admit. They have been used though, against skeletons and other P/S damage resistant creatures. Same for the bow, same for the dagger: they're backups, there when when needed, that's all.

    Agreed, and on my list for most of my weapons. The armor idea was mentioned earlier by another poster, it's a good idea. There is a spell, Blood Money, which has a similar effect to the Bloodstone, and it's first level. Much better than the bloodstone, if you ask me.

    I believe you already mentioned this, and I already agreed (and had come to that conclusion long before you mentioned it).

    Already on the list.

    Bow: already discussed and settled, as was the Katana question.

    After game-wide the power-creep which affected every class out there (Wizards, clerics, druids, and summoners especially), and the amount of class neglect the devs have lavished on the rogue, small wonder people think it's a useless class; every other class around it has gotten stronger, and poached it's territory. It used to be a very powerful class, long before 3.5, when it was still called a thief.

    Bards certainly aren't the best buffers in the game. In fact, many people have claimed the bard is useless; they just don't understand how to make it work, because it is a subtle class. The best are cleric, witch, or oracle. And yes, bards are second best at everything. They have 3/4 BAB, they're 3/4 spontaneous casters, they fill in as healer, fill in as database, have less feats available to them. They're very good as a buffer, but any full caster has them beat after level 5. This isn't just my opinion, but Treantmonk's, Ravingdork's, and Rogue Eidolon's. While my ideas and opinions may not carry much weight here, I know theirs do.

    I'll remember to be more courteous. Again, I've spent quite a bit of time in more rough-and-tumble environs, which conditioned me to be more volatile. I'll relax more. :)

    Take a look at any PFS character picture. What do you notice about them? Go on, I'll wait. Seriously, go take a look.

    Give up?

    They're bristling with weapons. I have the extra weapons because I don't want to be a 1- or 2-trick pony. Which is something that I mentioned in my OP: versatility.

    I did. Expansively. Multiple times. In painstaking detail. As though I were trying to explain it to a young, dull child.

    It started like this:

    I wanted the boost to my skills, proficiency in something more interesting than a scimitar or rapier, and have as many in-class skills as possible. I wanted to be able to sneak attack, as well as self-buff, and cast some spells. Having various SLAs or other abilities was a definite appeal. Is there a single class which lets me have proficiency in Eastern Weapons, gives me all but two skills in-class, lets me sneak attack, cast spells, and depend primarily on two ability scores, and doesn't require a mount?

    In short: No, there isn't.

    This is why he's what he is. This is exactly the character I wanted. I'm not rebuilding him, no matter how much I'm implored.

    I just wanted crazy weapon ideas, frankenstein monsters, and all I got was Kittens and apple pie.

    I appreciate everyone who contributed to this thread, but clearly, there is some disconnect here. You can't understand why I have built this character the way it is, and I can't solicit any useful information because this is a serious mental obstacle for people to get around to be able offer advice specifically on what I'm asking.

    Thanks for playing everyone.


    "Apology accepted captain Needa"
    I will give it a shot.
    The only Real versatility you can get from weapons is damage type and ranged/not ranged.
    In PF, and this is a sad thing for me, versatility is magic and specialicing is the way if you are Martial. That is way the magus is so great because you can be both. You can be the King of what ever weapon you Pick and be Versatile with spells.
    But you wanted somthing different.
    I suggest you Bring all the cool weapons you want and then use the arcane pool power of the magus to make them magic on demand.
    When i started writing this i had forgotten you are dhampir because what i was gonna suggest will need you to be human in some way. But i will suggest it any way and then you can pehaps bring it to the your GM.
    Racial herritage (gnome) opens up for a very interesting favored class bonus for magi. They get to Pick one of the following weapon enchants to ad to the list of options in the pool: defending, ghost touch, merciful, mighty cleaving, vicious; allying, conductive, corrosive, corrosive burst, menacing.
    I also would suggest picking a reach weapon to the Arsenal since that also give interesting options, you May loose Spell combat with a two handed weapon but frost bite and a ton of AoOs is fun vs. Mooks. The Elven Branched Spear is a finessable reach weapon, some of the ninja weapon are also reached but they dont go with finesse.
    Finally look at the options in arcane deed as it can offer more than just level to damage at the mid to high levels.
    If some of this advice have been given before just ignore it.


    Nonlethal: Hence why I specifically said "instead find a way to avoid taking the -4 to deal nonlethal damage with a wakizashi"

    A trait (Blade of Mercy) can remove that penalty outright for your wakizashis, and even give a minor bonus when you do swing for nonlethal. Taking Extra Traits would set you up in the same way as the saps, and give you some other bonus on top of it. Assuming your GM is playing with traits of course, and you still have your Religion slot open.

    If that's not an option saps work but... *Shrug* As I said, how often is "I really wish I could deal nonlethal" coming up for you?

    Sais: Cesti are B or P already. This is why I'm thrown on why that reason matters; between the two sets of weapons you said you use the most, with the materials you plan, you cover every DR that it's possible to break barring the alignments, Epic (for a long while, but eventually you'll crack that one too), and the really oddball ones like glass.

    I understand that you want a lot of weapons... but in this case, sais don't seem like what you want (nor the dagger, honestly). Picking up something that grants more capabilities seems more useful to you. Grab a few Wooden Stakes, a pair of Blade Boots, stuff like that. Something that expands on your capabilities, even if it's nichey, will be better than something there to cover a niche that you've already filled (and I'm honestly surprised this character has passed over Blade Boots).

    As for the explaining what you want thing... I'm just going to point out that my first post was asking what you were actually looking for, and key details were skipped over until... well. All the way through to my last post asking about plans going forward (if you were taking more Ninja, I would have a very different opinion on Saps; you could take Sap Adept and pick up Master on the fly when you needed it).

    You explained. You explained a lot. But, as I was trying to point out: you gave a lot of irrelevant details and that's a lot of what sidelined the thread so much. That and people on all sides picking fights.


    A couple of items I use and combined together w/craft rules are deliquiscent gloves & a pair of gloves that let me see & hear through doors/walls when I place my hand on it. The 2nd pair is about 2k gold, the 1st one is maybe 4k. both are pretty handy. Deliquiscent gloves give you a 1d6 acid atk through weapons or as a touch, and allows you other perks against a certain creature type.

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