Advice on ninja / Magus magic weapon upgrades


Advice

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Hello fellow Pathfinders, I'd like some advice.

I am currently playing a dhampir Ninja 4/Magus 3. My main concept is a highly skilled, very combat capable character who uses a variety of weapons to deal various types of damage from melee and ranged, including bludgeoning. It's a Dex based build.

What I'm looking for is advice on weapon and armor upgrades. What I'm not looking for is a critique of him, advice against making him a strength build, rules lawyering or digressions from the main topic.

I apologize if this sounds kind of dickish; I originally posted this on reddit and got trolled and didn't get any useful input. I'm more than happy to discuss the build, or alternative build, Or anything else, but not here.

Basically, the concept is to have as much versatility as possible, fuelled by his Ki and arcane pools, which will eventually be supplemented by both a ring of Ki mastery and an amulet of hidden strength. The key to his versatility is Forgotten Trick. Between the ring, amulet, and trick, Hondo will be able to access any combat feat he wants, taking only the leading feats such as Ck. But Expertise/Reflexes, and Power Attack, letting him use almost any weapon he encounters, and will be able to be the match of any fighter.

Hondo is extremely skilled, versatile and potent in combat and until the addition of a new PC, the stealthiest member of the party, what with being both a ninja and a dhampir who likes being in the shadows and all.

Before we get into the build, yes I know I'm talking about potentially a Hundred thousand gp, it you may not like my build, or any other number of objections, but really, all I'm looking for is input about likely Armour and weapon upgrades, nothing more.

I hope this doesn't come across as aggro, or dicking. That's not my goal and if I come across that way I apologize I'm just trying to narrow down the amount of data I need to sort through.

So without further ado, I present to you, Hondo Omaha, Ninja/Magus, smuggler, ladies' man extraordinaire.

13
20
14
18
12
17

L1/N1 Poison use, Sneak attack 1, weapon finesse
L2/N2 Ki pool, ninja trick: weapon training: wakizashi
L3/M1 arcane pool, cantrips, spell combat, two weapon fighting.
L4/M2 spellstrike
L5/N3 No trace, Sneak attack 2, Craft Wondrous Item
L6/N4 Ninja trick:forgotten trick, uncanny Dodge
L7/M3 Magus Arcana: spell scars, Craft Magic Arms & Armor

Traits
Magical knack (+2 caster level)
reactionary +2 initiative

Now for the long part: the weapons.

So this is a summation of my upgrades wish list.

Paired wakizashi: agile on both, spell storing and cruel on one, ominous and dispelling on the other, one chronic steel, the other Silverstein, +1 on both.

Paired cestus: agile on both, guardian on one, defender in the other, one umbrage, the other??, +n on both.

Paired sai: agile on both (sending a theme here?), spell storing, thundering on one, shock, and dispelling on the other, +n on both.

Light crossbow:stalking, seeking, and conserving, +n.

Dagger: no idea yet, it's not been used yet.

Armor: leather: darkleaf, shadow, hosteling, +Ac.

Future weapons purchases will be paired saps, combined with Sap Adept/Master, merciful, and frostbite for that sweet, sweet nonlethal. damage.

Basically, I'd like feedback about weapon abilities that would complement his abilities. Obviously, to some this seems unrealistic and that's fine if you do. However, I'm only interested in hearing about weapon abilities. If you'd like to discuss my build, please Pm me.

I know this was a longish post, but I thank everyone who stuck it out to the end.

Thanks in advance!

TMF


Dotting.


Curious about the decision for a crossbow rather than a bow, they simply seem more feat intensive, and the dark leaf leather armor would probably be outclassed by a mithral shirt unless I am missing something. Also a returning dagger could be fun in the off chance you take someone out and have an extra attack, I think it'd be legal to use the extra attack to throw the dagger anyway.

EDIT: Scratch the dagger thing, forgot about all the TWFing

Also I am working on a Ninja/magus and was curious about the order you took your levels.


You're not very clear in what you're looking for here.

Are you looking at buying all ten of those weapons? Or just some of them, and that's what you're looking for?

Do you have a priority list for which weapons are most important to you?

Which weapons do you use most often?

What's his combat strategy? In that whole post you actually say almost nothing about this.

What's the budget here? Talking about "hundreds of thousands of gp" doesn't actually say much. Should I be suggesting how you turn all ten of those into +10 weapons, or should we be looking at level 7 WBL, or level 20 WBL, or do you have some actual amount here?

In lieu of anything else: Merciful does nothing on saps, as they're already nonlethal.

noble peasant wrote:
Also I am working on a Ninja/magus and was curious about the order you took your levels.

You can see it in his post. Ninja-Ninja-Magus-Magus-Ninja-Ninja-Magus.


noble peasant wrote:

Curious about the decision for a crossbow rather than a bow, they simply seem more feat intensive, and the dark leaf leather armor would probably be outclassed by a mithral shirt unless I am missing something. Also a returning dagger could be fun in the off chance you take someone out and have an extra attack, I think it'd be legal to use the extra attack to throw the dagger anyway.

EDIT: Scratch the dagger thing, forgot about all the TWFing

Also I am working on a Ninja/magus and was curious about the order you took your levels.

I decided on crossbow because of the better damage delivery. I don't have high strength, so the 1d8+1 is objectively better than the 1d6+2, and I eventually won't really be concerned with feats, as I'll be able to access any of the ones I want through forgotten trick.

I'm aiming to make as much use of Sneak attack as possible, but it seems our combat of late has been more straight-up fights and farming than the more situational damage of SA. We're primarily in a shadowy realm, so I get to use SA quite a bit. Plus I can also make it happen through feint.

I like the darkleaf because it's thematic and works well with my character's roleplay as well. He's not supposed to be a straight-up combat monster, but to deliver a crapload of SA damage, and debuffs as well.

BTW, I am armed to the tits, because I like the idea of my ninja/magus bristling with weapons, and a variety of means to deliver it.


kestral287 wrote:

You're not very clear in what you're looking for here.

Are you looking at buying all ten of those weapons? Or just some of them, and that's what you're looking for?

>Do you have a priority list for which weapons are most important to you?

I listed them in order of general importance, but I figured their priority would be obivous: wakzaichi, cesti, sai/crossbow, dagger

>Which weapons do you use most often?

Wakizashi, then cestus, then crossbow, then sai/dagger.

>What's his combat strategy? In that whole post you actually say almost nothing about this.

Attack from SA as much as possible, using feint, vanish/invisibility/darkness. He's also a magus, standard archetype, so do the math with that as well (shocking grasp, touch spells, etc). Often ends up doing straight-up combat often though, since we lost our barb.

Basically I try to go for a team buff, then a debuff of the opposite team, targeting specific NPCs (like casters or lieutenants) to lessen their teamwork advantage and any combos they may have planned. This style of team gameplay (there's 4 in our party), targeting their main team buffers or any casters has been very effective. We were due for a couple of really nasty fights in a row (as our DM warned us ahead of time) and we mopped them pretty badly both times. I'm an assassin, who also has magus levels. Or a magus with assassin levels, take your pick at this point.

>What's the budget here? Talking about "hundreds of thousands of gp" doesn't actually say much. Should I be suggesting how you turn all ten of those into +10 weapons, or should we be looking at level 7 WBL, or level 20 WBL, or do you have some actual amount here?

I'm looking for ideas, and blue sky it. I don't care about dollar values, just interesting combinations or things I haven't thought of that might work.

>In lieu of anything else: Merciful does nothing on saps, as they're already nonlethal.

Hmmm... when I initially read it, I thought it said "damage delivered by a merciful weapon." Now, it says "damage it deals." I could have delivered my shocking grasps as nonlethal with the former wording. Which would have been really gross. Something like 15d6 with a sap and the Sap Master feat.

noble peasant wrote:
Also I am working on a Ninja/magus and was curious about the order you took your levels.

>You can see it in his post. Ninja-Ninja-Magus-Magus-Ninja-Ninja-Magus.

What he said.


I'd say, unless you're taking an archetype, you've seriously crippled yourself by multiclassing ninja with magus. A ninja's damage comes from sneak attacks, which benefit a lot from two-weapon fighting—which a magus normally isn't capable of. Instead, your magus levels are seriously lowering your sneak attack damage, and what you want to build sounds like it could be accomplished much more easily with levels in Arcane Trickster, which advances both spells AND sneak attack (but doesn't bring any other abilities with it, which is why it's usually used with sorcerer/wizard instead of magus).

Improved Two-Weapon Feint, which it sounds like you want, has a lot of pre-requisite feats. (Right now, feinting is mostly useless to your character). The Magus levels also prevent you from getting to Greater Invisibility through either of your classes, which sounds like what you want. The best way to play this character, I think, would be to take advantage of your large pool of skills and tricks and focus on regular damage, because you've chosen two classes that make it quite hard to deal anything noticeable with your sneak attack.

First, if you want to use multiple weapons, you'll seriously need Quick Draw. Right now, you can only TWF or Spellstrike in a battle without switching between... drawing a weapon is a move action, spell strike is a full action and so is TWF, which means you can't switch between combat styles without nerfing yourself.

Forgotten Trick isn't a great ability for this, because it takes a standard action to use.

Next, let's talk about archetypes. If you're going for throwing weapons, Myrmidarch will let you do some nice things with, for instance, scorching ray on a full attack. Kensai would let you benefit more from your high Dex. Both would lower your spells per day, but are still worth thinking about. Hexcrafter, to add another, would give you some nice hexes, including flight which could be used to position yourself flanking more easily.

As for weapons—a magus is proficient with a longbow. So it's 1d8+1 vs 1d8+2, and the bow is absolutely a better weapon. What weapons you use beyond that really don't matter much, although you'll want a high critical rate to boost spellstrike damage (but this doesn't affect sneak attacks at all, so I'm not sure).

As for other useful equipment... a blinkback belt would let you use a throwing weapon with arcane pool, which is the only way you'd make throwing weapons work, though it still requires spellstrike.


thunderbeard wrote:

I'd say, unless you're taking an archetype, you've seriously crippled yourself by multiclassing ninja with magus. A ninja's damage comes from sneak attacks, which benefit a lot from two-weapon fighting—which a magus normally isn't capable of. Instead, your magus levels are seriously lowering your sneak attack damage, and what you want to build sounds like it could be accomplished much more easily with levels in Arcane Trickster, which advances both spells AND sneak attack (but doesn't bring any other abilities with it, which is why it's usually used with sorcerer/wizard instead of magus).

Improved Two-Weapon Feint, which it sounds like you want, has a lot of pre-requisite feats. (Right now, feinting is mostly useless to your character). The Magus levels also prevent you from getting to Greater Invisibility through either of your classes, which sounds like what you want. The best way to play this character, I think, would be to take advantage of your large pool of skills and tricks and focus on regular damage, because you've chosen two classes that make it quite hard to deal anything noticeable with your sneak attack.

First, if you want to use multiple weapons, you'll seriously need Quick Draw. Right now, you can only TWF or Spellstrike in a battle without switching between... drawing a weapon is a move action, spell strike is a full action and so is TWF, which means you can't switch between combat styles without nerfing yourself.

Forgotten Trick isn't a great ability for this, because it takes a standard action to use.

Next, let's talk about archetypes. If you're going for throwing weapons, Myrmidarch will let you do some nice things with, for instance, scorching ray on a full attack. Kensai would let you benefit more from your high Dex. Both would lower your spells per day, but are still worth thinking about. Hexcrafter, to add another, would give you some nice hexes, including flight which could be used to position yourself flanking more easily.

As for weapons—a magus is proficient with...

I appreciate you taking the time to reply, but...

Giving someone advice about 1st level decisions when they've posted stats for a 7th level character is, well... pretty dumb. I guess I'll just go back and change that feat/archetype, right?

My character is hardly nerfed, at any level. In fact my DM complains about how much damage he does. So, at the risk of sounding rude, you don't know what you're talking about. I built him in this fashion for very specific reasons, which have to do with the R in RPG (which doesn't stand for "damage-per-round").

Please read the OP.

What I'm looking for is advice on weapon and armor upgrades. What I'm not looking for is a critique of him, advice against making him a strength build, rules lawyering or digressions from the main topic.

I'm more than happy to discuss the build, or alternative build, Or anything else, but not here.

Before we get into the build, yes I know I'm talking about potentially a Hundred thousand gp, that you may not like my build, or any other number of objections, but really, all I'm looking for is input about likely Armour and weapon upgrades, nothing more.

I hope this doesn't come across as aggro, or dickish. That's not my goal and if I come across that way I apologize. I'm just trying to narrow down the amount of data I need to sort through.

Basically, I'd like feedback about weapon abilities that would complement his abilities. Obviously, to some this seems unrealistic and that's fine if you do. However, I'm only interested in hearing about weapon abilities. If you'd like to discuss my build, please Pm me.

Why is this such a difficult concept for people to grasp? Every single place I've posted this, from Reddit, to GitPG, and Enworld, there's always someone who comes along and doesn't read the OP.

I mentioned this specifically in the OP, not once, not twice, not thrice, not four times, but five times.


TomatoFettuccini wrote:
noble peasant wrote:

Curious about the decision for a crossbow rather than a bow, they simply seem more feat intensive, and the dark leaf leather armor would probably be outclassed by a mithral shirt unless I am missing something. Also a returning dagger could be fun in the off chance you take someone out and have an extra attack, I think it'd be legal to use the extra attack to throw the dagger anyway.

EDIT: Scratch the dagger thing, forgot about all the TWFing

Also I am working on a Ninja/magus and was curious about the order you took your levels.

So I went and took a look at the damage of a longbow. It's the same as a crossbow. Realistically, I'm not going to put extra anything into strength, so a crossbow with stalking is perfect.

I like the idea of the shuriken, and I can deliver a lot of SA damage with them, but I have to get the ring I'm after to really make forgotten trick work the way I want it to so I can make use of it more than once an initiative. I'll admit, until I get both the ring and the necklace or amulet, forgotten trick does have limited utility. But it's politics, unfortunately; my DM already thinks my character is overpowered.

So I have to slightly downplay my character's power level to keep him happy. He complains that he has to throw more powerful creatures at us. To which I'm kind of like, "Well, obviously. We level up. They're gonna get more powerful." Pathfinder's feat tree is heavily combat oriented, as are the classes.

I like the darkleaf because it's thematic and works well with my character's roleplay as well. He's not supposed to be a straight-up combat monster, but to deliver a crapload of SA damage, and debuffs as well.

BTW, I am armed to the t+!$, because I like the idea of my ninja/magus bristling with weapons, and a variety of means to deliver it.

Liberty's Edge

Well, it's easier to optimize by changing the build than it is to fix with weapons/items. Also there is such a thing as retraining, so the changing feats or archetypes taken at 1st level isn't that dumb.

As for what you actually wanted, the weapons. The first things I have to say is spreading out your WBL is going to have diminishing returns. What you probably want to do is focus on 2 or 3 solid weapons.

Weapon Versatility would really let you cut down on all the weapons you need and allow you to focus with a couple of good melee weapons, preferably the wakizashis. Then I'd seriously consider using longbow for attacks at range, unless throwing weapons are something you really want to do. It's a serious drain on resources to get a solid set of throwing weapons going. Also Quick Draw becomes a mandatory feat, although with your build I'd suggest it anyway.

I've seen the warrior with a 100 weapons before, but none of them have ever been better than a warrior that focuses on 1 or 2. If your looking for something to mitigate the deficiencies of using a number of less powerful weapons, I don't think you're going to find it. If you want to continue with the numerous weapons for fluff reasons, that's fine, but it will put you at a mechanical advantage.


Armor - Spell Storing, put frigid touch in it. Just make sure both you and GM agree on how spell storing armor works. Has been errata, but I think its still confusing.

Frigid Touch in your armor can save your character a world of hurt.


Deighton Thrane wrote:

Well, it's easier to optimize by changing the build than it is to fix with weapons/items. Also there is such a thing as retraining, so the changing feats or archetypes taken at 1st level isn't that dumb.

As for what you actually wanted, the weapons. The first things I have to say is spreading out your WBL is going to have diminishing returns. What you probably want to do is focus on 2 or 3 solid weapons.

Weapon Versatility would really let you cut down on all the weapons you need and allow you to focus with a couple of good melee weapons, preferably the wakizashis. Then I'd seriously consider using longbow for attacks at range, unless throwing weapons are something you really want to do. It's a serious drain on resources to get a solid set of throwing weapons going. Also Quick Draw becomes a mandatory feat, although with your build I'd suggest it anyway.

I've seen the warrior with a 100 weapons before, but none of them have ever been better than a warrior that focuses on 1 or 2. If your looking for something to mitigate the deficiencies of using a number of less powerful weapons, I don't think you're going to find it. If you want to continue with the numerous weapons for fluff reasons, that's fine, but it will put you at a mechanical advantage.

What you say about retraining is true, but my DM looks at me doing this as munchkining, and it's bad enough that I just crafted a whole bunch of magical weapons and bought a whole bunch of new spells, plus pearls of power. My DM seems to have some prosaic views on the game. But retraining a whole archetype is a bit much, as it would completely change the way my character works and plays.

I have to stress again, because it seems everyone is missing the point: I did not design him to be a DPR monster but rather to be versatile, and more suited for social situations, and also able to dish it out in combat. He is not repeat NOT a DPR machine and was not designed or intended to be one. I am not attempting to make up for his "weak points" with weapon enhancements, although I can see how some would interpret it that way.

I agree with your assessment on the wakizachis; they've served me well, and quick draw is on my list of To Get feats. The shuriken I can draw as many as 6 in a round and apply sneak attack damage to those attacks. It's not a lot of damage, 1d4+2d6 per hit, but it adds up, so it makes them worthwhile long into the game.

I get a lot of recommendations specifically for a bow, but numerically I don't really why, other than the single point of damage. The crossbow has a better crit range, which I like. If i really want more damage, I'll upgrade to a heavy crossbow and enchant it. I suppose because it works with quick draw.

I have the cesti specifically if he's ever unarmed, which has happened, and I've been glad to have them, and gotten extra damage using spell combat and arcane mark to Zorro a BBEG's face with them. The sais....well, so far they've been used twice in 7 levels. Daggers are always handy to have, and has proven useful repeatedly. The crossbow, not a lot either, but it's good to have a ranged weapon.

Thanks for Weapon Versatility, that's a good feat. What about weapon ability enhancements? That is, specifically, why I opened this thread.

I already have agile on the wakis, keen will be next, then maybe
ominous and/or cruel (or one on each waki?). I'm planning on making all of my melee weapons agile, putting stalking on my crossbow.

Other enhancements I'm interested in are menacing, courageous, ghost touch, called, deceptive, and spell storing.

I'm trying to be thematic with my weapons and build, which is why I've made the choices I have, like Darkleaf, or Cthonic steel, or WHY.


Matt2VK wrote:

Armor - Spell Storing, put frigid touch in it. Just make sure both you and GM agree on how spell storing armor works. Has been errata, but I think its still confusing.

Frigid Touch in your armor can save your character a world of hurt.

Now this is exactly what I've been asking for.

Great idea. I've also been eyeing Shadow and Hosteling.


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Advantage of a bow over a crossbow is in reloading (bow is a free action, crossbow is a move action-- this means that when you get your second attack at level 8, it's at double damage) and range (an extra 30' per increment). Crit range is mathematically the same between the two.

I'm frankly really curious about when the dagger has come in handy. Its only advantage over the wakizashi is a +2 on Slight of Hand checks, which... there are really two ways that can go down. If you get a Slight of Hand check per weapon, the dagger's presence is generally negligible to your odds of getting at least one through. If you get one Slight of Hand check... then you're kind of screwed when they detect the rest of your arsenal anyway.

Use a second Spell Storing over Dispelling. The flexibility is valuable. Really, put Spell Storing on everything you own. It'll augment your offenses considerably.

I'd ditch the Sais unless you get some interesting flavor for them. That might just be me, but they seem... pretty bland, honestly. I might just be bored of the whole two-element weapon thing though. If you enjoy 'em that much go for it-- though even then I'd put it on the wakizashis.

While it's veering away from enhancements, I'd also say this: Make at least one of your cesti Adamantine. That's the DR you're going to have the most trouble with, and it lets you punch your way through doors, walls, rock, prison cells... almost everything that isn't a Wall of Force or an Adamantine door.


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I have one suggestion for you. Your armor, instead of Darkleaf Leather, you should get Darkleaf Quilted Cloth Armor. If you get your Dex up high enough, which with the proper equipment at high levels is easy, you get an AC of 16 from the armor alone, 26 with the base 10. You can get a max Dex bonus of +10, and the armor +5 with the base +1. This beats out the Darkleaf Leather, which peaks at AC of 15, not only because of the 1 more AC, but due to this little special effect of Quilted Cloth Armor.

Quilted Cloth wrote:
This enhanced form of padded armor has internal layers specifically designed to trap arrows, bolts, darts, shuriken, thrown daggers, and other small ranged piercing weapons. When these kinds of weapons strike you, they tend to become snagged in these layers and fail to harm you. Wearing quilted cloth armor gives you DR 3/— against attacks of this kind. The special layers of the armor have no effect on other kinds of weapons.


Also, I am not sure how many feats you have to sink, but you should think about adding in a One Handed Weapon, if you want true diversity. This would require you to get Weapon Finesse with any weapon you already have on the list, which can free up Agile on that pair of weapons, then Weapon Focus and Slashing Grace for your One Handed Weapon, plus you need proficiency with such a weapon.

If you were to do this, my personal suggestion is a Keen Impacting Katana with some kind of energy burst with it. Keen is +1, Impact +2, and Burst type energy is +2 for the full +5 you can have. You will have a 2d6+Dex with a crit of 15-20/x2. I personally love this combo for the crit range and the added 3d10 elemental damage you get from the weapon when you crit. Only thing is, none of these feats allow you to add Dex to your attack bonus.


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He'd have to dip Swashbuckler to make use of the katana, and frankly... neither Impacting nor Energy Burst is very good. He already rolls fistfuls of dice between Spellstrikes and Sneak Attacks; consistent damage and accuracy boosts hold greater value for him.

Mechanically, the easiest Dex to Damage via feats available for most classes is Fencing Grace, and with Effortless Lace it can support TWF. But... we're well beyond the point of trying to figure out the mechanically preferential option.


Why would he have to dip in to Swashbuckler to use the katana? I do not understand the purpose of that... As for the fistfuls of dice with those, I was not talking about being able to do damage in general, just for more diversity. He talks about diversity but only labels dual wielding two light weapons of the same kind with a crossbow mixed in for ranged. Kind of sounds linear and not diversified at all.

Ahhh, nevermind, for the to hit with dex. That is besides the point though, you only need a single attack to deal out 2d6+Mod x2 +3d10, that is pretty decent damage for a single hit, and if any others manage to hit besides this, it is only a plus.


Katana: Only the Swashbuckler + Slashing Grace can use Dexterity with a katana. He has a Str modifier of +1. If he can't use Dex with a weapon, it's worthless to him.

Diversity: Having a one-handed weapon is (relatively) valuable, but for him it has to be a scimitar, dueling sword, or rapier. (or whip, if he really wants, but that's too feat-intensive for where he is).

Even then, the way he's set up, the scimitar requiring a feat is painful, the dueling sword requiring exotic proficiency to be finessable is painful, so... rapier is the sum total of his options.


I thought about rapier, but in the end, a single hit with my katana set up will peak better than dex added to attack bonus for the rapier. Being a +15/+10/+5 set up, mainly your first attack is your only real damage source. With a +5 modifier to the katana, your attack bonus will be +21 with no other equipment, even against the highest CR monsters, you can still hit without a natural 20(such as a Tarrasque which has an AC of 40, so a 19 would hit, 20 would crit). This means you will still be able to hit with it against most enemies. However, with just a few different pieces of gear towards the higher levels, you can actually add this up to at least a +25 to hit, using the appropriate belt for both Dex and Str, and a Pale Green Ioun Stone(I think that is the color). Seems pretty capable of hitting anything within its normal crit range at that point, even at the highest monster AC's. Of course, would these be helpful against an AC heavy tank that another PC made? No, but that is the point of diversifying, is it not?


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Yeah, that's... the math doesn't support that. At all.

Let's start with a CR7 creature at his current level. AC 20 average, by the creation chart. Straight rapier versus straight katana.

Katana does 1D8+1, needs a 14 or better to hit (35%).

Rapier does 1D6+1, needs a 10 or better to hit (50%).

Sans Sneak Attack, the rapier averages 16% more damage. With Sneak Attack, that jumps to 30% more damage.

Now sure, let's dial it forward to level 20. Dex goes up by ~12, to 32 (+11 mod). He has no reason to ever touch Str, so that's still 13.

With this many weapons, there's no way he's getting any of them up to a real +5, especially as he's primed more toward abilities than numbers it seems. As a Magus he can partially solve that, so we'll go for your Impact-Shocking Burst idea, but that would be the extent of its abilities. However, his patterns have emphasized "Agile everything", so it's reasonable to assume that a rapier would get Dexterity to Damage. Agile and Keen there. Note that this is +2 off abilities to the +3 we're giving the katana.

Katana does 3D6+6, hits on a 19 or 20, gets a bonus +1D10 damage for a crit multiplier of x2

Rapier does 1D6+16, hits on a 9-20.

Average damage of the katana? 1.9275

That is not a typo. It averages less than two damage.

Average damage of the rapier: 15.21

And then the real advantages. Add in a +2D6 Sneak Attack (I'm assuming levels going forward will be Magus, but more Ninja isn't actually going to change the final results here).

Now the Katana is up to 2.6275, while the Rapier jumps to 19.41. That's better than seven times as much damage.

Add in a 10D6 Shocking Grasp The Katana hits for-- and note that at this point, if it does hit, it's rolling 15D6-- 6.6525 damage.

The Rapier? 46.71. Still better than seven times as much damage.

Accuracy matters. The Katana doesn't have accuracy.

The idea of adding a belt to Str... still doesn't fix things. Let's add the Pale Green Prism too (which he really should get regardless).

Now the katana has a 30% hit rate versus AC40, and hits for 2D6+9 with a 1D6 elemental rider (+1D10 on a crit).

Damage jumps considerably! 6.8175.

Rapier, adding only that Pale Green Prism? 16.4775. Better than double damage.

Add Sneak Attack. 8.9175 versus 21.0275. Still better than double.

Add in a Grasp. Katana hits 20.9925. Rapier hits 50.6025. Again-- better than double.

Also worth noting, I'm only looking at first attacks here. The two iteratives are going to favor the Rapier more.

This is the key point: the rapier will always do more damage for him.

The difference in Dex mod means that even after Impact and the Burst, the rapier has a higher base damage. It's at 19.5 (3.5+11+5). Meanwhile, even with the best-case Str booster the katana is at 19.5 (7+4+5+3.5) but the fact that there's no room in the budget to Keen it means it has half the crit rate.

If you brought both of these weapons up to 95% accuracy-- you're hitting a target made of glass-- then the rapier still does more damage (24.0825 versus 21.58875; I won't bother with Sneak Attack or Spellstrike because they're not going to change the difference). If you bring the rapier down to the Katana's level and give them both 30% accuracy, the rapier still comes out ahead (7.605 versus 6.8175).

The short version: There is no reason for this character to ever touch a katana. It's not going to outdamage a rapier. And this character doesn't even particularly want a rapier; the last thing he needs is another weapon.

Let's pause for a moment here too and note that throughout this test the katana was even given the benefit of a higher enhancement bonus than the rapier. If you bring them to the same level of enhancement, the katana stops even trying to keep up even under optimal conditions for it (read: when you only hit on a 20 or even hit on a 1).

To drop something back on the original topic: Keen the wakizashis. Keen is a Magus' best friend.


kestral287 wrote:

Yeah, that's... the math doesn't support that. At all.

Let's start with a CR7 creature at his current level. AC 20 average, by the creation chart. Straight rapier versus straight katana.

Katana does 1D8+1, needs a 14 or better to hit (35%).

Rapier does 1D6+1, needs a 10 or better to hit (50%).

Sans Sneak Attack, the rapier averages 16% more damage. With Sneak Attack, that jumps to 30% more damage.

Now sure, let's dial it forward to level 20. Dex goes up by ~12, to 32 (+11 mod). He has no reason to ever touch Str, so that's still 13.

With this many weapons, there's no way he's getting any of them up to a real +5, especially as he's primed more toward abilities than numbers it seems. As a Magus he can partially solve that, so we'll go for your Impact-Shocking Burst idea, but that would be the extent of its abilities. However, his patterns have emphasized "Agile everything", so it's reasonable to assume that a rapier would get Dexterity to Damage. Agile and Keen there. Note that this is +2 off abilities to the +3 we're giving the katana.

Katana does 3D6+6, hits on a 19 or 20, gets a bonus +1D10 damage for a crit multiplier of x2

Rapier does 1D6+16, hits on a 9-20.

Average damage of the katana? 1.9275

That is not a typo. It averages less than two damage.

Average damage of the rapier: 15.21

And then the real advantages. Add in a +2D6 Sneak Attack (I'm assuming levels going forward will be Magus, but more Ninja isn't actually going to change the final results here).

Now the Katana is up to 2.6275, while the Rapier jumps to 19.41. That's better than seven times as much damage.

Add in a 10D6 Shocking Grasp The Katana hits for-- and note that at this point, if it does hit, it's rolling 15D6-- 6.6525 damage.

The Rapier? 46.71. Still better than seven times as much damage.

Accuracy matters. The Katana doesn't have accuracy.

The idea of adding a belt to Str... still doesn't fix things. Let's add the Pale Green Prism too (which he really should get
...

I have to ask, why the to-hit and damage differential between the Katana vs rapier? I don't understand why a katana would hit less often than the rapier, considering I would have feats appropriate to keep the to-hit bonuses up, and currently with my wakis, they're at +12/10 (single weapon/Spell combat/TWF), not to mention identical stats and, of course, the upgrades. The only thing I could see being different would be wielding two rapiers vs 1 katana.

He's already proficient with katanas, and would need to get Agile for the damage bonus and retrain weapon focus. If I added that Effortless Lace on top of it, I'd be able to wield twin katanas or at least one as a light weapon in my off-hand.

I also don't understand how you're getting the difference in accuracy. It's my weapon proficiency and to-hit bonus which dictates that, not the weapon itself. With the right feats the accuracy rate should be identical.


kestral287 wrote:

He'd have to dip Swashbuckler to make use of the katana, and frankly... neither Impacting nor Energy Burst is very good. He already rolls fistfuls of dice between Spellstrikes and Sneak Attacks; consistent damage and accuracy boosts hold greater value for him.

Mechanically, the easiest Dex to Damage via feats available for most classes is Fencing Grace, and with Effortless Lace it can support TWF. But... we're well beyond the point of trying to figure out the mechanically preferential option.

Actually, no, I wouldn't. He's a ninja, so he already has proficiency with the katana. It would be a matter of taking Slashing grace, or putting agile on it and taking Weapon Focus for it. The only thing that wouldn't apply is Weapon Finesse because it's not a light weapon.

Ok, now I just read Effortless Lace. OMG, twin katanas here I come!


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You can use finesse on a rapier but not on a katana. On a dex build, that means you hit less often and do less damage.


TomatoFettuccini wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

He'd have to dip Swashbuckler to make use of the katana, and frankly... neither Impacting nor Energy Burst is very good. He already rolls fistfuls of dice between Spellstrikes and Sneak Attacks; consistent damage and accuracy boosts hold greater value for him.

Mechanically, the easiest Dex to Damage via feats available for most classes is Fencing Grace, and with Effortless Lace it can support TWF. But... we're well beyond the point of trying to figure out the mechanically preferential option.

Actually, no, I wouldn't. He's a ninja, so he already has proficiency with the katana. It would be a matter of taking Slashing grace, or putting agile on it and taking Weapon Focus for it. The only thing that wouldn't apply is Weapon Finesse because it's not a light weapon.

Ok, now I just read Effortless Lace. OMG, twin katanas here I come!

At least someone understood what I meant! The katanas will end up with a higher damage cap due to the crit range. While yes, the Rapier would take a bit less effort to get to their damage cap, they would still peak lower than your average dual wielding damage from dual katanas. After he goes through the effort, and spends a little extra time devoting to it, the katanas will hit at the same rate while doing crits twice as often. I will admit this though, I forgot that generally speaking, I would do this with a Fighter where, with the final weapon crit range and autocrit confirm, you are getting 2d6+mods(15-20/x3+2d10). It is a much more efficient system with a Fighter due to Fighter feats and class abilities.


Bladelock wrote:
You can use finesse on a rapier but not on a katana. On a dex build, that means you hit less often and do less damage.

That is where Effortless Lace comes in, it makes any one handed weapon of appropriate size become a light weapon, and able to apply Weapon Finesse to them. The Laces are cheap and affordable too, so long as his DM gives him the opportunity to buy them.


Ahhhh... See where your going now.


TomatoFettuccini wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

He'd have to dip Swashbuckler to make use of the katana, and frankly... neither Impacting nor Energy Burst is very good. He already rolls fistfuls of dice between Spellstrikes and Sneak Attacks; consistent damage and accuracy boosts hold greater value for him.

Mechanically, the easiest Dex to Damage via feats available for most classes is Fencing Grace, and with Effortless Lace it can support TWF. But... we're well beyond the point of trying to figure out the mechanically preferential option.

Actually, no, I wouldn't. He's a ninja, so he already has proficiency with the katana. It would be a matter of taking Slashing grace, or putting agile on it and taking Weapon Focus for it. The only thing that wouldn't apply is Weapon Finesse because it's not a light weapon.

Ok, now I just read Effortless Lace. OMG, twin katanas here I come!

Slashing Grace doesn't give you Dex-to-Attack with a katana unless you're a Swashbuckler, or also use Effortless Lace. Agile doesn't work because it's not Finesseable (at least not until you take the Lace). So you're shelling out even more money to make it work. Now, if you're confident the weapons will never be stolen or sundered and that you can efficiently access the Lace, go for it. Otherwise... I'd be careful.

Kaiin Retsu wrote:
At least someone understood what I meant! The katanas will end up with a higher damage cap due to the crit range. While yes, the Rapier would take a bit less effort to get to their damage cap, they would still peak lower than your average dual wielding damage from dual katanas. After he goes through the effort, and spends a little extra time devoting to it, the katanas will hit at the same rate while doing crits twice as often. I will admit this though, I forgot that generally speaking, I would do this with a Fighter where, with the final weapon crit range and autocrit confirm, you are getting 2d6+mods(15-20/x3+2d10). It is a much more efficient system with a Fighter due to Fighter feats and class abilities.

... What.

I hate to say this twice but... you're outright wrong. Not only does the math not support that, reading doesn't.

The rapier has a crit range of 18-20/x2

The wakizashi, his current weapon, has a crit range of 18-20/x2

The katana has a crit range of... 18-20/x2

And of course, every weapon with an 18-20/x2 crit range crits exactly as often for every other weapon with an 18-20/x2 crit range.

The katana averages, barring size-shenanigans, +2 damage per hit over the wakizashi and +1 damage per hit over the rapier, assuming everything else you have can support all weapons equally (which is the big problem here).

Size shenanigans can bring that up, but very minimally with the tricks he can realistically access. If you Impact all three, the katana's 2d6 averages 1.5 higher than the rapier's 1d8, which is in turn 1 higher than the wakizashi's 1d6. Incidentally, this is why Impact is a terrible trade barring specialized builds: its increase to average damage is tiny (katana's 1d8-> 2d6 jump is +1.5 damage). You'd have to also constantly Enlarge Person for the boost to be noticeable, and that's a terrible plan for a Dex-fighter.


Oh my bad, I thought the Rapier was a 19-20 crit range! Haha well then, don't I just feel foolish now.


And thus we learn why the rapier is one of the most awesome weapons in the game.

Tomato: How often do you use Spell Combat? I'd seriously consider a single rapier/katana in your case.


Kaiin Retsu wrote:
Oh my bad, I thought the Rapier was a 19-20 crit range! Haha well then, don't I just feel foolish now.

The rapier's an 18-20x2 crit range, does 1d6 piercing, whereas the wakis do that already, plus slashing, and also have the deadly property.

If I were to go the Effortless Lace route, its not an issue as I have taken Craft Wondrous and Craft Magical Arms and Armor. I can make any of my weapons or items anytime, all I need is gold and downtime. As things stand, Im probably sticking with the wakis for the forseeable future, until I can get some other shenanigans going. I like the idea of having at least one katana, thematically, but I would have to put effort into making it work with spell combat.


kestral287 wrote:

And thus we learn why the rapier is one of the most awesome weapons in the game.

Tomato: How often do you use Spell Combat? I'd seriously consider a single rapier/katana in your case.

As often as I can make it happen.

I'm still not getting the point of the rapier over wakizachis. They do the same damage, have the same crit threat and multiplier, work as well with my abilities as is. I don't get rapier at all.


TomatoFettuccini wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

And thus we learn why the rapier is one of the most awesome weapons in the game.

Tomato: How often do you use Spell Combat? I'd seriously consider a single rapier/katana in your case.

As often as I can make it happen.

I'm still not getting the point of the rapier over wakizachis. They do the same damage, have the same crit threat and multiplier, work as well with my abilities as is. I don't get rapier at all.

I had it in my head that wakizashis were 1d4, but as-is the big edge is Fencing Grace. If that's not a concern (really depends on whether or not you have the feat budget to support it) then they're the same. Rapier is just an easy comparison point for me.


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When I was just starting out with my Kensai Magus I thought about taking levels in Ninja, seeing as how it fit the oriental theme I was going for as well. I also thought about taking some Duelist levels but decided against that route.

I eventually changed my mind with taking levels in Ninja and I just play him like one anyway. Our stats aren't too different with how your's are set up. Kensai offers a lot for a Ninja, INT to AC, INT to Initiative, INT to AoO's and the ability to draw your weapon & make AoO's flat footed.

With the AoO's I went with a Fortuitous enchant along with Keen & Impervious & Spell Storing. I thought about Courageous but decided against it.

There's a trick with an Adamantine Impervious Anchoring weapon that I want to get eventually when funds permit. Basically when you hit someone with it, the Anchoring keeps that enemy from moving anywhere unless they make a DC30 STR check as a full round action. Your enemy would need a minimum Strength bonus of +10 to even have a chance of making that check on a Natural 20 roll. The Adamantine/Impervious part comes in to help it resist Sunder attempts. With your wish to have multiple weapons on your person to optimize certain encounters/situations this could be a big help.

Combine that Anchoring enchant with a Spell Stored Ray of Enfeeblement or Spell Combat Ray of Enfeeblement. Also maybe have a Returning enchant on it, so you can call it back to you once you've gotten away from someone you didn't want to fight. Serious Ninja-Arcane sneaky tricks with this.


Eigengrau wrote:

When I was just starting out with my Kensai Magus I thought about taking levels in Ninja, seeing as how it fit the oriental theme I was going for as well. I also thought about taking some Duelist levels but decided against that route.

I eventually changed my mind with taking levels in Ninja and I just play him like one anyway. Our stats aren't too different with how your's are set up. Kensai offers a lot for a Ninja, INT to AC, INT to Initiative, INT to AoO's and the ability to draw your weapon & make AoO's flat footed.

With the AoO's I went with a Fortuitous enchant along with Keen & Impervious & Spell Storing. I thought about Courageous but decided against it.

There's a trick with an Adamantine Impervious Anchoring weapon that I want to get eventually when funds permit. Basically when you hit someone with it, the Anchoring keeps that enemy from moving anywhere unless they make a DC30 STR check as a full round action. Your enemy would need a minimum Strength bonus of +10 to even have a chance of making that check on a Natural 20 roll. The Adamantine/Impervious part comes in to help it resist Sunder attempts. With your wish to have multiple weapons on your person to optimize certain encounters/situations this could be a big help.

Combine that Anchoring enchant with a Spell Stored Ray of Enfeeblement or Spell Combat Ray of Enfeeblement. Also maybe have a Returning enchant on it, so you can call it back to you once you've gotten away from someone you didn't want to fight. Serious Ninja-Arcane sneaky tricks with this.

This isn't something I'd considered, but anchoring combined with ghost touch would ruin anyone who liked being incorporeal's day. I just read about a +1 net with ghost touch. If you're hit with it you're auto-entangled and must work to become un-entangled, and if you're a ghost you're pooched.

I just noticed sneaky, a +5000 gp upgrade, which lets me deal sneak attack to a designated target 1/day (2x/day if you're a rogue - wonder if that means ninja, which is an alternate rogue class?)even if the situation doesn't normally allow for it, and only until the end of the next turn. It's a decent daily, but it'd be better if it scaled.

I like the idea of darkleaf armor with the shadow ability. Again, nice and thematic. I also just noticed Deathless, which prevents the first 10 positive or negative damage done, and ignores healing spells (they pass through).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TomatoFettuccini wrote:
noble peasant wrote:

Curious about the decision for a crossbow rather than a bow, they simply seem more feat intensive, and the dark leaf leather armor would probably be outclassed by a mithral shirt unless I am missing something. Also a returning dagger could be fun in the off chance you take someone out and have an extra attack, I think it'd be legal to use the extra attack to throw the dagger anyway.

EDIT: Scratch the dagger thing, forgot about all the TWFing

Also I am working on a Ninja/magus and was curious about the order you took your levels.

I decided on crossbow because of the better damage delivery. I don't have high strength, so the 1d8+1 is objectively better than the 1d6+2, and I eventually won't really be concerned with feats, as I'll be able to access any of the ones I want through forgotten trick.

I'm aiming to make as much use of Sneak attack as possible, but it seems our combat of late has been more straight-up fights and farming than the more situational damage of SA. We're primarily in a shadowy realm, so I get to use SA quite a bit. Plus I can also make it happen through feint.

I like the darkleaf because it's thematic and works well with my character's roleplay as well. He's not supposed to be a straight-up combat monster, but to deliver a crapload of SA damage, and debuffs as well.

BTW, I am armed to the t~@!, because I like the idea of my ninja/magus bristling with weapons, and a variety of means to deliver it.

Just remember all that gear WEIGHS.


kestral287 wrote:
TomatoFettuccini wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

And thus we learn why the rapier is one of the most awesome weapons in the game.

Tomato: How often do you use Spell Combat? I'd seriously consider a single rapier/katana in your case.

As often as I can make it happen.

I'm still not getting the point of the rapier over wakizachis. They do the same damage, have the same crit threat and multiplier, work as well with my abilities as is. I don't get rapier at all.

I had it in my head that wakizashis were 1d4, but as-is the big edge is Fencing Grace. If that's not a concern (really depends on whether or not you have the feat budget to support it) then they're the same. Rapier is just an easy comparison point for me.

Also another couple points in favor of the wakis: I was already proficient with them. I'm wondering about proficiency with katanas; does that mean that I am able to wield them one-handed, because I am proficient with them as an exotic weapon? I've read a number of very good arguments both for and against, but I haven't found any solid answer. It was the ambiguity that made me choose the wakis, plus I could wield two with no extra feat.


LazarX wrote:
TomatoFettuccini wrote:
noble peasant wrote:

Curious about the decision for a crossbow rather than a bow, they simply seem more feat intensive, and the dark leaf leather armor would probably be outclassed by a mithral shirt unless I am missing something. Also a returning dagger could be fun in the off chance you take someone out and have an extra attack, I think it'd be legal to use the extra attack to throw the dagger anyway.

EDIT: Scratch the dagger thing, forgot about all the TWFing

Also I am working on a Ninja/magus and was curious about the order you took your levels.

I decided on crossbow because of the better damage delivery. I don't have high strength, so the 1d8+1 is objectively better than the 1d6+2, and I eventually won't really be concerned with feats, as I'll be able to access any of the ones I want through forgotten trick.

I'm aiming to make as much use of Sneak attack as possible, but it seems our combat of late has been more straight-up fights and farming than the more situational damage of SA. We're primarily in a shadowy realm, so I get to use SA quite a bit. Plus I can also make it happen through feint.

I like the darkleaf because it's thematic and works well with my character's roleplay as well. He's not supposed to be a straight-up combat monster, but to deliver a crapload of SA damage, and debuffs as well.

BTW, I am armed to the t~@!, because I like the idea of my ninja/magus bristling with weapons, and a variety of means to deliver it.

Just remember all that gear WEIGHS.

It's not an issue when you have a bag of holding for your loot, and our DM trusts us to keep everything legal. We do, but he often thinks of my... well, I'm not munchkining per se, but he seems to think so. Hell, I'm not even close to being optimized. I can only imagine the complaints we'd get if I was actually playing a level 7 magus.

In our last campaign, we had a party of 6 11th level characters: a human shadowcaster, a kitsune druid, a half elf jedi (you heard me), a fetchling shadowcaller (summoner), a warforged artificer, and a human vivisetionist.

We were flat-out massacring giants every encounter through sheer combat ability and our DM was wondering why. We worked well together and knew how to make plans. Plus being crazy powerful.

It would have been fun to take on a dragon. :(


TomatoFettuccini wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
TomatoFettuccini wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

And thus we learn why the rapier is one of the most awesome weapons in the game.

Tomato: How often do you use Spell Combat? I'd seriously consider a single rapier/katana in your case.

As often as I can make it happen.

I'm still not getting the point of the rapier over wakizachis. They do the same damage, have the same crit threat and multiplier, work as well with my abilities as is. I don't get rapier at all.

I had it in my head that wakizashis were 1d4, but as-is the big edge is Fencing Grace. If that's not a concern (really depends on whether or not you have the feat budget to support it) then they're the same. Rapier is just an easy comparison point for me.
Also another couple points in favor of the wakis: I was already proficient with them. I'm wondering about proficiency with katanas; does that mean that I am able to wield them one-handed, because I am proficient with them as an exotic weapon? I've read a number of very good arguments both for and against, but I haven't found any solid answer. It was the ambiguity that made me choose the wakis, plus I could wield two with no extra feat.

There's only one kind of proficiency. If you are proficient in a katana, then you can one-hand it.


kestral287 wrote:
TomatoFettuccini wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
TomatoFettuccini wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

And thus we learn why the rapier is one of the most awesome weapons in the game.

Tomato: How often do you use Spell Combat? I'd seriously consider a single rapier/katana in your case.

As often as I can make it happen.

I'm still not getting the point of the rapier over wakizachis. They do the same damage, have the same crit threat and multiplier, work as well with my abilities as is. I don't get rapier at all.

I had it in my head that wakizashis were 1d4, but as-is the big edge is Fencing Grace. If that's not a concern (really depends on whether or not you have the feat budget to support it) then they're the same. Rapier is just an easy comparison point for me.
Also another couple points in favor of the wakis: I was already proficient with them. I'm wondering about proficiency with katanas; does that mean that I am able to wield them one-handed, because I am proficient with them as an exotic weapon? I've read a number of very good arguments both for and against, but I haven't found any solid answer. It was the ambiguity that made me choose the wakis, plus I could wield two with no extra feat.
There's only one kind of proficiency. If you are proficient in a katana, then you can one-hand it.

Well. That changes a couple of things now. Hmm.. must do some thinking.


kestral287 wrote:

You're not very clear in what you're looking for here.

Are you looking at buying all ten of those weapons? Or just some of them, and that's what you're looking for?

Do you have a priority list for which weapons are most important to you?

Which weapons do you use most often?

What's his combat strategy? In that whole post you actually say almost nothing about this.

What's the budget here? Talking about "hundreds of thousands of gp" doesn't actually say much. Should I be suggesting how you turn all ten of those into +10 weapons, or should we be looking at level 7 WBL, or level 20 WBL, or do you have some actual amount here?

In lieu of anything else: Merciful does nothing on saps, as they're already nonlethal.

noble peasant wrote:
Also I am working on a Ninja/magus and was curious about the order you took your levels.

You can see it in his post. Ninja-Ninja-Magus-Magus-Ninja-Ninja-Magus.

Sorry, I just realized that my first reply wasn't much in the way of a reply. Let me correct that here.

In order:

Mainly I'm looking for ideas in terms of what weapon enhancements (including permanent enchantments) might be suitable for my character, chiefly in terms of theme, with DPR very much a secondary (or lesser) consideration. I would like to make up for some damage capability, I do good damage already because of how much utility I get out of sneak attack (through feinting, flanking, smokesticks, and other methods), and my enhanced shocking grasp courtesy of Magical Knack (a trait that gives +2 to caster level). I'm already the chief damage dealer of the group (after our barbarian went rogue), but that's not how I have designed him. I designed him to be stealthy but with good damage potential, and to be the party face. Spellcraft, UMD, Acrobatics, Stealth, Bluff, Perception, and Sense Motive are maxed or near-max, and I get various bonuses which push them into the mid-to-high teens. Because of the combination of classes, I have all but Heal and Survival as class skills, and have been investing at the very least a single point in everything, for various reasons, most of which have to deal with role play. He's a magus, which means that, in terms of role-play, he'd be doing a lot of research and would know many things. Additionally, he would also be widely knowledgeable in combat, something which is brought about by means of Forgotten Trick (lets him access every feat tree he needs temporarily). Additionally, he's a smuggler and would have a wide variety of skills through his profession. This is why I'm not interested in DPR as much as versatility.

Thematically, he's decently good at everything, knowledgeable about many things, and good enough in combat to not be taken for granted or lightly. Think along the lines of sneaky, burst bard rather than in your face combat mage. Why didn't I play a bard? Why do I need a reason?

I'm also the party item and weapon crafter.

I have all of those weapons; the list is my wish-list of upgrades.

I listed them in order of use.

I try to use Sneak Attack as much as I can in concert with Spellstrike (shocking grasp, chill touch, frostbite, or whatever other touch spell I have available; I've even used arcane mark to b|tch-slap the BBEG and leave my initials on his face). I like being stealthy and attacking from flanking or the shadows as much as possible.

Before you say it: Yes I know I won't get greater invisibility or Ghost Blade. I knew this before I had dozens of min-maxers flame me about it.

If I can't flank, attack from shadows, or otherwise incapacitate their ability to see me, I feint. If I can't get any of those conditions, I debuffs and then go full-frontal. I try to pin them down with web, or trip them with thunderstomp, or blind them with obscuring mist or mudball. But those are general combat strategies. I don't like fighting the same way in each encounter, and I don't have any real preferred tactics, because I don't want my GM to get used to a combat style from me and start throwing me curveballs (I like being the one to throw those). I do often end up casting any party buffs because I'm the only reliable caster and because of my UMD score.

I also make extensive use of the magic items we have on-hand, and my favorite spells are mage hand, detect magic and prestidigitation. I have detect undead as a 3/day SLA. Between my perception (which is currently being put to shame by our new ranger party member) and my other detection spells, I'm kind of the party sensor suite. Think Brotherhood of Nod's stealth tank combined with the Obelisk of Light.

Blue sky it. I want to hear creative, not necessarily DPR-related ideas for weapon and armor enhancements or enchantments. That's why I said I don't care about gp value. I'm looking for ideas, so go wild.

Eg: Hondo is a dhampir. Something like a cruel, ominous, life-stealing, enervated weapon, or (as previously discussed) leather Darkleaf shadow spell storing armor. I'm looking for ideas, and not ones necessarily attached to DPR. I know how to get ridiculous DPR. I'm looking for off-the-wall ideas and neat combinations of abilities.

Thanks for the correction on saps.


If I remember right, ghost touch can't be placed on ranged weapons. You could put it on weapons that are both ranges/melee though and Anchoring would seriously hose incorporeals due to them not having str scores.

These aren't weapons but I have these two rings that a sneaky ninja type could use. The Decoy Ring and Sidhereon Ring. I know the last ring I didn't spell right but its on the Articles of Nethys website for about 30k. Very handy stuff. Also look at getting a pair of immovable rods, they can be used as light maces, a ladder, and instant door blocking devices.


Have you seen the sword of subtlety?


Eigengrau wrote:

If I remember right, ghost touch can't be placed on ranged weapons. You could put it on weapons that are both ranges/melee though and Anchoring would seriously hose incorporeals due to them not having str scores.

These aren't weapons but I have these two rings that a sneaky ninja type could use. The Decoy Ring and Sidhereon Ring. I know the last ring I didn't spell right but its on the Articles of Nethys website for about 30k. Very handy stuff. Also look at getting a pair of immovable rods, they can be used as light maces, a ladder, and instant door blocking devices.

Ghost touch can be placed on any weapon. It's an easy check, which I did, and you remember incorrectly.

I checked out the decoy ring; it's meh. I have either a Ring of Arcane Mastery and/or a Ring of Ki Mastery in mind. As for the other ring.... well, if I don't have the right spelling it's very difficult to find it. But thanks anyway.

I already have a couple of rods. Which sounds dirtier than I meant it to.

Yes, I have, but I had forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder.


TomatoFettuccini wrote:
Eigengrau wrote:

If I remember right, ghost touch can't be placed on ranged weapons. You could put it on weapons that are both ranges/melee though and Anchoring would seriously hose incorporeals due to them not having str scores.

These aren't weapons but I have these two rings that a sneaky ninja type could use. The Decoy Ring and Sidhereon Ring. I know the last ring I didn't spell right but its on the Articles of Nethys website for about 30k. Very handy stuff. Also look at getting a pair of immovable rods, they can be used as light maces, a ladder, and instant door blocking devices.

Ghost touch can be placed on any weapon. It's an easy check, which I did, and you remember incorrectly.

I checked out the decoy ring; it's meh. I have either a Ring of Arcane Mastery and/or a Ring of Ki Mastery in mind. As for the other ring.... well, if I don't have the right spelling it's very difficult to find it. But thanks anyway.

I already have a couple of rods. Which sounds dirtier than I meant it to.

Yes, I have, but I had forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder.

I found the ring, Sihedron ring; it's the same as Ring of Force Shield. +2 AC as a free action. Not bad, but shield gives +4 shield bonus and doesn't take up a ring slot, is a 1st level spell which stops magic missile, and lasts minutes per level. AC bonuses don't stack, so if your armor is better than +2AC it's pointless. Overall, it's a subpar option for just about anyone other than a straight caster, and even then bracers of armor +2 beat it by a country mile.


Eigengrau wrote:

If I remember right, ghost touch can't be placed on ranged weapons. You could put it on weapons that are both ranges/melee though and Anchoring would seriously hose incorporeals due to them not having str scores.

These aren't weapons but I have these two rings that a sneaky ninja type could use. The Decoy Ring and Sidhereon Ring. I know the last ring I didn't spell right but its on the Articles of Nethys website for about 30k. Very handy stuff. Also look at getting a pair of immovable rods, they can be used as light maces, a ladder, and instant door blocking devices.

An anchoring, ghost touch net would seriously hamper anyone incorporeal. I like that idea! Thanks!


Deighton Thrane wrote:

Well, it's easier to optimize by changing the build than it is to fix with weapons/items. Also there is such a thing as retraining, so the changing feats or archetypes taken at 1st level isn't that dumb.

As for what you actually wanted, the weapons. The first things I have to say is spreading out your WBL is going to have diminishing returns. What you probably want to do is focus on 2 or 3 solid weapons.

Weapon Versatility would really let you cut down on all the weapons you need and allow you to focus with a couple of good melee weapons, preferably the wakizashis. Then I'd seriously consider using longbow for attacks at range, unless throwing weapons are something you really want to do. It's a serious drain on resources to get a solid set of throwing weapons going. Also Quick Draw becomes a mandatory feat, although with your build I'd suggest it anyway.

I've seen the warrior with a 100 weapons before, but none of them have ever been better than a warrior that focuses on 1 or 2. If your looking for something to mitigate the deficiencies of using a number of less powerful weapons, I don't think you're going to find it. If you want to continue with the numerous weapons for fluff reasons, that's fine, but it will put you at a mechanical advantage.

Thanks again for your feedback. I appreciate your thoughts, but I'm set on building it the way he is.

I wanted him to be versatile both in and out of combat. In-combat, I wanted to be able to adapt to as many given situations as possible, including using skills. Bad guy is immune to regular steel? I've got cold iron and silver. Half damage from slashing or piercing? I've got Sais or a mace. Need to do ranged damage? Ranged proficiency at will.

I have used most of my weapons thus far, some more than others. The cesti are armor, which means I can't be disarmed of them and they don't take up the hand slot. The sais are for dealing bludgeoning damage. After having it spelled out to me I'll probably switch to the bow for ranged, supplemented by shuriken (which I can launch up to 5 thanks to various buffs, and hit for sneak attack as well at close range). The dagger is a safeguard/backup, much like the cesti. Everything was chosen specifically for an asian theme, explaining my choice of ninja, and thus weapons.

So not necessarily 100 weapons. Believe it or not, I have thought it through, even though many people seem to think I'm either deficient or daft. I'm fine with toting around 6+ weapons. Why aren't you fine with me being fine with it?

I'll say it one more time for those who haven't really gotten the point yet:

I am not building this character to be a mechanically sound DPR machine.

I am building it for ROLE-PLAYING purposes.

Thank you for your concern, but I am not concerned. I have been warned, threatened, trolled and warned again about hampering his damage potential.

I am soliciting creative weapon enhancement/enchantment combinations which are more thematic than damage oriented.

It may seem like I'm being kind of an a-hole with the point, but FFS, how many people cannot read a simple instruction given repeatedly? If this were a thread asking how can I boost my DPR into the stratosphere I'd have a million useful suggestions. Ask for something else? People go mental and it breaks their brains.

Please read the OP thoroughly.

I know that many people chiming in believe they are helping me, and I appreciate that, but rather than trying to change my mind about how I develop my character, I would appreciate support in the form I'm asking and have asked repeatedly.

It's kind of like that aunt who keeps buying you sweaters that you'll never wear, because you have different ideas of what's attractive.

I'm trying to tell my aunt that I don't like loud patterns and she keeps buying me ugly cardigans.

You guys are being that aunt. Please stop giving me ugly sweaters.


TomatoFettuccini wrote:
TomatoFettuccini wrote:
Eigengrau wrote:

If I remember right, ghost touch can't be placed on ranged weapons. You could put it on weapons that are both ranges/melee though and Anchoring would seriously hose incorporeals due to them not having str scores.

These aren't weapons but I have these two rings that a sneaky ninja type could use. The Decoy Ring and Sidhereon Ring. I know the last ring I didn't spell right but its on the Articles of Nethys website for about 30k. Very handy stuff. Also look at getting a pair of immovable rods, they can be used as light maces, a ladder, and instant door blocking devices.

Ghost touch can be placed on any weapon. It's an easy check, which I did, and you remember incorrectly.

I checked out the decoy ring; it's meh. I have either a Ring of Arcane Mastery and/or a Ring of Ki Mastery in mind. As for the other ring.... well, if I don't have the right spelling it's very difficult to find it. But thanks anyway.

I already have a couple of rods. Which sounds dirtier than I meant it to.

Yes, I have, but I had forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder.

I found the ring, Sihedron ring; it's the same as Ring of Force Shield. +2 AC as a free action. Not bad, but shield gives +4 shield bonus and doesn't take up a ring slot, is a 1st level spell which stops magic missile, and lasts minutes per level. AC bonuses don't stack, so if your armor is better than +2AC it's pointless. Overall, it's a subpar option for just about anyone other than a straight caster, and even then bracers of armor +2 beat it by a country mile.

It seems to me that we aren't talking about the same ring here, the Sihedron Ring. It's nothing like a Ring of Force Shield, it basically combines a +3 Ring of Protection (deflection bonus), with a +3 Cloak of Resistance, Endure Elements always on ability AND what I like for my sneaky-spy like stuff, is the ability to change my clothing/armor into anything I want and only a True Seeing spell will let someone know what I'm wearing isn't real.

d20pfsrd calls the ring a Star Ring and Archives of Nethys (I apologize for calling it the Articles of Nethys earlier) has this description listed for it.

Sihedron Ring
Source Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition pg., Pathfinder #6: Spires of Xin-Shalast pg. 37
Aura moderate abjuration and illusion CL 9th
Slot ring; Price 35,000 gp; Weight —
Description
This otherwise plain ring is adorned with a tiny Sihedron rune. These rings were given to agents and allies of the runelords as badges of office and tokens of appreciation for their work—sometimes, they were given as bribes to those a runelord was attempting to win to his cause. Like the more common Sihedron medallion, runelords have special links to Sihedron rings that aid in scrying and observation of the world around the wearer of the ring.

A Sihedron ring grants a +3 deflection bonus to AC, a +3 resistance bonus on all saving throws, and protects the wearer with a constant endure elements effect. At will, as a standard action, the wearer can use the Sihedron ring to change the appearance of his clothing or armor into any other kind of clothing or armor. The actual clothing and armor worn retain all their properties (including weight) when glamered. Only true seeing or similar magic reveals the true nature of the adornments.
Construction
Requirements Forge Ring, endure elements, resistance, shield; Cost 17,500 gp


I remember now why I thought Ghost Touch didn't work with Ranged Weapons. Under this table: Link

It shows the enchantments available for Melee and Ghost Touch is listed under melee enchants, further down in the Ranged table it doesn't list it as an enchantment available. HOWEVER, nothing in the actual Ghost Touch description does it state that it can't be used on ranged weapons. So after seeing no restriction in the description I don't see why it couldn't be placed on a ranged weapon though. Makes sense to me anyway.


Eigengrau wrote:

I remember now why I thought Ghost Touch didn't work with Ranged Weapons. Under this table: Link

It shows the enchantments available for Melee and Ghost Touch is listed under melee enchants, further down in the Ranged table it doesn't list it as an enchantment available. HOWEVER, nothing in the actual Ghost Touch description does it state that it can't be used on ranged weapons. So after seeing no restriction in the description I don't see why it couldn't be placed on a ranged weapon though. Makes sense to me anyway.

I see what you mean. I didn't think to check the tables. But yes, nothing in the description says melee only. And agreed, i don't see why you couldn't either. Arrows of ghost touch? Seems reasonable to me.

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