Most people still buy print books and print is not going away any time soon. The number of folks going all digital is certainly increasing, but they are still very much in the minority.
Print is still very much were it's it for the majority of the book buying public
Go back in time and substitute "books" for "snail mail", "mp3 players", "compact cameras" or "palmtops". See how these turned out.
Our hobby, being notoriously hostile to technology, will likely hold out slightly longer than other areas, but Resistance is Futile.
The parallel isn't valid. I'm an IT guy by profession and more that comfortable with technology. I use a mixture of physical books and digital resources at the table and in prep, because that's what works best for me.
PDFs aren't a replacement for books; they're an additional resources that works differently from books. So too the web... that's yet another resource that works different from both.
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This is likely a result of a predominance of artistic sorts in this particular market - I for one, as an engineer, however, see absolutely no reason why flipping through pages of a physical book is in any way superior to pressing page up and page down on a keyboard.
So, while I understand where this preference is originating, I still have not gotten an answer to my query of what the player base would do if Paizo DID stop making the print editions. The only proposed answer was 'stop buying from them' - but I can't believe that a majority, or even a significant minority, would give up their hobby instead of simply making the transition to a digital format. Many 3rd party products are only available digitally, and yet they are still purchased.
Nobody said they'd give up the hobby. The statement was stop buying product. I've got so much Pathfinder product already that I literally could play until I die of old age and not finish it.
Now, imagine a scenario where you are browsing, not linearly reading. Say... the Feats section of a book. You place a finger at the feat index, and you start reading downwards. You see a feat you're interested in, so you leaf over a few pages and read it. Leave a finger there. Satisfied? Back to the index. Find another feat. Rinse, repeat. That is a very efficient process with a physical book but awkward with a PDF. Especially PDFs that aren't indexed. Or have bookmarks for Feats/Spells/etc that are "A-K" and "L-Z", where you'll have to page forward a zillion times to find what you're looking for. The back functionality takes into account every page movement, meaning you may need to use it a dozen or more times. Also, jumping back to the Feat index bookmark may or may not get you what you want if the index spans multiple pages.
Now, in the case of the web, this is less an issue, as by definition everything is hyperlinked and you can spawn new tabs. Thing is, touch devices can be annoying as well, and crawling into bed with a book or two to randomly peruse and plot and scheme while de-stressing and falling asleep, that can be nice. Especially when you don't have an LCD/OLED screen shooting you in the face.
Again, this isn't about digi-Amish who just haven't seen the light. We're not idiots, we're not ignorant and we're not "artists". We're educated, technical people who much like good engineers can find the right too for the right job, and know that sometimes a mixture of tools is it.
it is a valid parallel. For many people, a letter works different than email - that doesn't mean snail mail stuck around as a primary means of communication. Physical books work best for you because it is what you are used to. Snail mail worked best for my grandmother because it was what she was used to. Her preference didn't make snail mail stick around for mainstream use.
For me, PDFs very much are a replacement for the books, and I find them superior in every way to the books (unless I'm trying to smash something). They are more portable, searchable, cheaper, and more environmentally friendly.
This is likely a result of a predominance of artistic sorts in this particular market - I for one, as an engineer, however, see absolutely no reason why flipping through pages of a physical book is in any way superior to pressing page up and page down on a keyboard.
So, while I understand where this preference is originating, I still have not gotten an answer to my query of what the player base would do if Paizo DID stop making the print editions. The only proposed answer was 'stop buying from them' - but I can't believe that a majority, or even a significant minority, would give up their hobby instead of simply making the transition to a digital format. Many 3rd party products are only available digitally, and yet they are still purchased.
Nobody said they'd give up the hobby. The statement was stop buying product. I've got so much Pathfinder product already that I literally could play until I die of old age and not finish it.
Now, imagine a scenario where you are browsing, not linearly reading. Say... the Feats section of a book. You place a finger at the feat index, and you start reading downwards. You see a feat you're interested in, so you leaf over a few pages and read it. Leave a finger there. Satisfied? Back to the index. Find another feat. Rinse, repeat. That is a very efficient process with a physical book but awkward with a PDF. Especially PDFs that aren't indexed. Or have bookmarks for Feats/Spells/etc that are "A-K" and "L-Z", where you'll have to page forward a zillion times to find what you're looking for. The back functionality takes into account every page movement, meaning you may need to use it a dozen or more times. Also, jumping back to the Feat index bookmark may or may not get you what you want if the index spans multiple pages.
Now, in the case of the web, this is less an issue, as by definition everything is hyperlinked and you can spawn new tabs. Thing is, touch devices can be annoying as well, and...
This is a function of poor PDF design, because they are simply a duplication of the physical book (which is their primary target at this point). However, in my proposal to drop the physical product, I would fully expect the PDF to be built properly, with a proper index with hyperlinking, back hyperlinking to the appropriate index/summary/contents listing at the top of each individual page, etc.
it is a valid parallel. For many people, a letter works different than email
The invalidating factor isn't that they're different. It's that PDFs aren't better than books (in most cases). They're only different.
- that doesn't mean snail mail stuck around as a primary means of communication. Physical books work best for you because it is what you are used to. Snail mail worked best for my grandmother because it was what she was used to. Her preference didn't make snail mail stick around for mainstream use.
For me, PDFs very much are a replacement for the books, and I find them superior in every way to the books (unless I'm trying to smash something). They are more portable, searchable, cheaper, and more environmentally friendly.
I mean this with absolute respect and no sarcasm, honesty: good for you. But you are not me.
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So, while I understand where this preference is originating, I still have not gotten an answer to my query of what the player base would do if Paizo DID stop making the print editions. The only proposed answer was 'stop buying from them' - but I can't believe that a majority, or even a significant minority, would give up their hobby instead of simply making the transition to a digital format. Many 3rd party products are only available digitally, and yet they are still purchased.
As a 3pp, and a developer for Paizo, and a developer for Green Ronin, I can tell you without a doubt and with information covering multiple companies and multiple game systems -- pdf sales are no where close to print sales. PDF-only companies are not pdf only because it makes them anything like close to the same amount of money. It does, however, have a lower barrier to entry and less risk, which makes it easier for tiny companies, people who publish as a hobby, and sole proprietors to make a go of it. But without breaking into print, the total income is much, much lower.
The pdf industry couldn't come close to support Paizo by itself. The money is not there. And of course many physical game stores would stop giving space to PFS events, since they'd have no incentive in the form of sales, so the player base would shrink.
It's a total non starter in the current realities of rpg publishing. Of course Paizo sells pdfs, so if the numbers were anything like close, they could decide if they wanted to make a jump. But currently it would be immediate and obvious disaster, and abandoning a lot of current customers.
The invalidating factor isn't that they're different. It's that PDFs aren't better than books (in most cases). They're only different.
If you continue reading past my original couple posts on the topic, you'll see many examples of how a digital distribution model WOULD be superior to the physical books. It primarily is not even focused on the end user's use, but on the developer's work process improvements that would lead to a better game as a whole.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As a 3pp, and a developer for Paizo, and a developer for Green Ronin, I can tell you without a doubt and with information covering multiple companies and multiple game systems -- pdf sales are no where close to print sales....
The pdf industry couldn't come close to support Paizo by itself. The money is not there....
It's a total non starter in the current realities of rpg publishing. Of course Paizo sells pdfs, so if the numbers were anything like close, they could decide if they wanted to make a jump. But currently it would be immediate and obvious disaster, and abandoning a lot of current customers.
a digital distribution model WOULD be superior to the physical books.
I lol'd. :)
So, while I understand where this preference is originating, I still have not gotten an answer to my query of what the player base would do if Paizo DID stop making the print editions. The only proposed answer was 'stop buying from them' - but I can't believe that a majority, or even a significant minority, would give up their hobby instead of simply making the transition to a digital format. Many 3rd party products are only available digitally, and yet they are still purchased.As a 3pp, and a developer for Paizo, and a developer for Green Ronin, I can tell you without a doubt and with information covering multiple companies and multiple game systems -- pdf sales are no where close to print sales. PDF-only companies are not pdf only because it makes them anything like close to the same amount of money. It does, however, have a lower barrier to entry and less risk, which makes it easier for tiny companies, people who publish as a hobby, and sole proprietors to make a go of it. But without breaking into print, the total income is much, much lower.
The pdf industry couldn't come close to support Paizo by itself. The money is not there. And of course many physical game stores would stop giving space to PFS events, since they'd have no incentive in the form of sales, so the player base would shrink.
It's a total non starter in the current realities of rpg publishing. Of course Paizo sells pdfs, so if the numbers were anything like close, they could decide if they wanted to make a jump. But currently it would be immediate and obvious disaster, and abandoning a lot of current customers.
How much of that is based on price structures, and how much of that is based on customer demand specifically for a physical product? This whole thread became focused on the desire for a quality product, which frankly, the current process is not very good at producing.
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Look I understand that some people like nice pretty books on the shelf, but I don't play Pathfinder to have a pretty library, I want a good game - and I see more and more examples that the physical book model gets in the way of good game design. Combine that with the fact that B&M game stores are disappearing faster and faster anyway, and I really don't see WHY that compromise should have to be made.
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Like I've said earlier, I can't say with any experience how much game stores make up their market force. In my region, it is non-existent. The 30 mile radius around my house has 4.7 million people, 3 game stores, and none of them host PFS. They do sell some dice, and have a small rack of pathfinder reaper minis, but a bulk of the product that flows through their inventory and all events that take place are related to tabletop wargames and the magic card games. If that's the representation they are thriving on, they've already lost it here.
LazarX, You've made a possible business case for why they shouldn't do it, based on the support of the local game stores, which I'd just have to take your word for that you know more about that than I do - but you did not say what you would do if they stopped selling the physical books, but offered more frequent fixes and quicker to market products by focusing on the digital product.
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Look I understand that some people like nice pretty books on the shelf, but I don't play Pathfinder to have a pretty library, I want a good game - and I see more and more examples that the physical book model gets in the way of good game design. Combine that with the fact that B&M game stores are disappearing faster and faster anyway, and I really don't see WHY that compromise should have to be made.
Owen KC Stephens just told you why. Killing off printed books will kill the company. Personally, I like to have a physical book to read, and websites to use as a reference. PDFs aren't as quick as websites for reference, and are much less useful for reading at length - two column full page layouts don't work well on electronic screens. If a game company were to go to a digital only model (which isn't going to be practical for at least a decade), I'd want something better than dozens of pdfs.
You are part of a small minority of players that don't like printed books. Even without Owen's comments, it shouldn't be hard to figure out. Your opinion that printed books are a bad thing is clearly in the minority on these boards. Given that only a minority of the customer base participates on these boards, it's likely that your position is an even smaller minority of the overall customer base.
I'd still like to see errata divorced from the reprint schedule, if only so that we'd have the possibility of ever getting errata for the majority of Paizo's products that will never be reprinted. But the idea that the company should stop printing books (which amounts to suggesting that the company should just go out of business) is nuts.
Look I understand that some people like nice pretty books on the shelf, but I don't play Pathfinder to have a pretty library, I want a good game - and I see more and more examples that the physical book model gets in the way of good game design. Combine that with the fact that B&M game stores are disappearing faster and faster anyway, and I really don't see WHY that compromise should have to be made.Owen KC Stephens just told you why. Killing off printed books will kill the company. Personally, I like to have a physical book to read, and websites to use as a reference. PDFs aren't as quick as websites for reference, and are much less useful for reading at length - two column full page layouts don't work well on electronic screens. If a game company were to go to a digital only model (which isn't going to be practical for at least a decade), I'd want something better than dozens of pdfs.
You are part of a small minority of players that don't like printed books. Even without Owen's comments, it shouldn't be hard to figure out. Your opinion that printed books are a bad thing is clearly in the minority on these boards. Given that only a minority of the customer base participates on these boards, it's likely that your position is an even smaller minority of the overall customer base.
I'd still like to see errata divorced from the reprint schedule, if only so that we'd have the possibility of ever getting errata for the majority of Paizo's products that will never be reprinted. But the idea that the company should stop printing books (which amounts to suggesting that the company should just go out of business) is nuts.
Obviously, if they were able to fix their apparent issues with timely updates that are caused by the availability of physical products, then sure, I'd be fine with it - but that does not appear to be the case, and they've made no indication that they have any intention of changing their process either, and in fact have stated that they HAVE to do it the way they do to satisfy their B&M partners, which, in my observation, do not exist.
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Here is a list of some of Paizo's "non-existent" game store owner/retailer/customers.
Just because there are no game stores selling Pathfinder in your local area does not mean they don't exist.
Do you think those game stores bring a significant number of new purchasers to Paizo? Or is word of mouth the primary method of expanding to new gamers? I ask because there are still a lot of gamers playing in my area, but no B&M support. It makes me think that the real support the B&M's are providing is overestimated.
I did a survey of those who I play with (3 different groups), and of them, only 1 physical book was ever purchased at a game store.. everything else came direct from Paizo or from amazon.
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*shrug* I never go to game stores, but I know lots of local PFS games are held there. I'd imagine they're a major gateway for organized play.
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