Any word on the ACG?


Product Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

I've been, and still am, out in the field for nearly a month, with only my phone's very poor signal internet. Just curious, has there been any word, any updates, anything, really on the Adv. Class Guide?

Silver Crusade

They posted a couple of errata spoilers, but the full errata document has not been released yet. And I am not very happy about that.


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Yeah, this extended, Beta testing version of the ACG is getting annoying. We're about 7 months after the launch and still have nothing. How long should it take to FIX a book they've released. A lot of other products would have recalls and free replacements, and they'd have it soon. Here we have it at 7 months and so far we only know, "It's beyond what Mark deals with", like 6 months ago.

off topic:

As a sadistic look, what's to say we're not going to have class changes in this book? With the reversal of the SLA for "no reason", why not have the swashbuckler or arcanist or whatever change? After seeing this Massive play test of "being live" they might want to change some things now.

Like I love and am totally supportive of them making official decisions for things. But I feel that for them to change something "official" they should say why they are doing such.


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Most likely, the errata file is finished and waiting. What's far more likely is that it is gathering virtual dust in some editor's computer until the actual print run for ACG finally runs out.

The problem with telling people you're definitely working on a huge errata file for a trouble-filled book is that then people expect it to come out immediately and everyone stops buying the physical books to wait for the errata. It's a self-defeating cycle.


The errata is coming at some point soon. We know that some of it is done, so it will probably be released within a couple months. Based on comments Mona or Wertz said, and Paizo's policy on errata, the book must've sold really well.

The port strike is affecting the shipping of other books, so I wouldn't be surprised if it'll delay the second printing too.


Long story short, Seifter already completed a large errata document and occasionally adds something small to it when something pops up.

It cannot be released until some non-specified time in the future that's likely when a second print run of ACG is released.

Paizo Glitterati Robot

Errata is released when we start shipping a new printing. It will be available on the PRD, as a PDF download, and the PDF of the product itself will be updated all on the same day. I assure you that once this is publicly available the announcement will be difficult to miss.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Chris Lambertz wrote:
the announcement will be difficult to miss.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED

Wait, hang on a second...


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Well at least we know that someday the broken product we all paid money for will eventually be... fixed? Maybe clarified? I dunno, there are a lot of instances where I scratch my head in that book.

Silver Crusade

At this point I would settle for some quick clarifications, things like the primal companion hunter desperately need them.
I am already fighting with myself not to buy Occult Adventures, and I am quite curious about that one (and participated in the playtest) but if the playtest was any indication, then the final classes are quite likely to cause a certain degree of confusion.

Of course since I play and started to GM PFS... yeah I already feel a strong temptation to buy it so I can be prepared for players ... doing it wrong.


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

At this point I would settle for some quick clarifications, things like the primal companion hunter desperately need them.

I am already fighting with myself not to buy Occult Adventures, and I am quite curious about that one (and participated in the playtest) but if the playtest was any indication, then the final classes are quite likely to cause a certain degree of confusion.

Of course since I play and started to GM PFS... yeah I already feel a strong temptation to buy it so I can be prepared for players ... doing it wrong.

My personal suggestion regarding ACG questions is to post your concerns in this thread since Mr. Seifter has been doing an excellent job reading it and adding clarifications to the errata document. That way if your concerns are previously unnoticed they can at least be added to the errata.

Designer

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Insain Dragoon wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

At this point I would settle for some quick clarifications, things like the primal companion hunter desperately need them.

I am already fighting with myself not to buy Occult Adventures, and I am quite curious about that one (and participated in the playtest) but if the playtest was any indication, then the final classes are quite likely to cause a certain degree of confusion.

Of course since I play and started to GM PFS... yeah I already feel a strong temptation to buy it so I can be prepared for players ... doing it wrong.

My personal suggestion regarding ACG questions is to post your concerns in this thread since Mr. Seifter has been doing an excellent job reading it and adding clarifications to the errata document. That way if your concerns are previously unnoticed they can at least be added to the errata.

Since turning the errata over, I've put at least two post-it notes on the stack of errata on the editors' desks after some eagle-eyed forumites noticed a couple of things that the thread and I hadn't noticed yet. I'll keep doing it as necessary until it goes to reprint!

Silver Crusade

Chris Lambertz wrote:
Errata is released when we start shipping a new printing. It will be available on the PRD, as a PDF download, and the PDF of the product itself will be updated all on the same day. I assure you that once this is publicly available the announcement will be difficult to miss.

After reading quite a number of threads on the topic of print+/vs pdf with plenty of posts by Eric Mona and others, it seems that not buying the hardcover version seems to delay proper errata..

Is there a way for those of us who buy pdfs out of necessity (livining in europe, playing PFS and not having the required carrying capacity) to incentivise/help with quicker FAQ/errata/clarifications?

Oh and since we learned, that it took about 3 months for the fixed versions of the strategy guide to get ready, is the new version of the ACG already final (as in sent to the printer)?

Silver Crusade

Insain Dragoon wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

At this point I would settle for some quick clarifications, things like the primal companion hunter desperately need them.

I am already fighting with myself not to buy Occult Adventures, and I am quite curious about that one (and participated in the playtest) but if the playtest was any indication, then the final classes are quite likely to cause a certain degree of confusion.

Of course since I play and started to GM PFS... yeah I already feel a strong temptation to buy it so I can be prepared for players ... doing it wrong.

My personal suggestion regarding ACG questions is to post your concerns in this thread since Mr. Seifter has been doing an excellent job reading it and adding clarifications to the errata document. That way if your concerns are previously unnoticed they can at least be added to the errata.

Thank you for the suggestion, I tend to rank input from Mark Seifter rather highly (after having played the ACG pregens, I already owe the man several beers if I ever manage to meet him).

Shadow Lodge

Thanks. I was mostly just eager to see if Id missed any news in the last month I'd been away.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Chris Lambertz wrote:
Errata is released when we start shipping a new printing. It will be available on the PRD, as a PDF download, and the PDF of the product itself will be updated all on the same day. I assure you that once this is publicly available the announcement will be difficult to miss.

This statement is true for all products in the RPG line (and any other RPG products we reprint with errata incorporated). But it's also important to note that we don't announce when (or generally even *if*) we're going to ship a new printing until we actually start shipping that printing, which happens only when A) we've sold through the previous printing and B) the product has safely arrived in our warehouse. (A and B don't necessarily happen in that order every time.) As Ashram pointed out, if everybody waited for the next printing, that printing would never come out.


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Is there a way for those of us who buy pdfs out of necessity (livining in europe, playing PFS and not having the required carrying capacity) to incentivise/help with quicker FAQ/errata/clarifications?

I'm reading between the lines that the "necessity" of which you speak is the high shipping costs. I have an elegant solution that satisfies that concern while simultaneously accelerating the potential errata release timeline...

Buy the hardcovers and ship them to some unsuspecting US citizen.

Sure, you don't GET the book, but that wasn't one of your stated goals. <Grin> I should mention I'm unbiased in this suggestion because I am not a US citizen and therefore could not accidentally benefit from your blind gifting of hardcover books.


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Vic Wertz wrote:

As Ashram pointed out, if everybody waited for the next printing, that printing would never come out.

Because everyone should have a chance to look at this editing trainwreck.

Liberty's Edge

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Vic Wertz wrote:
Chris Lambertz wrote:
Errata is released when we start shipping a new printing. It will be available on the PRD, as a PDF download, and the PDF of the product itself will be updated all on the same day. I assure you that once this is publicly available the announcement will be difficult to miss.

This statement is true for all products in the RPG line (and any other RPG products we reprint with errata incorporated). But it's also important to note that we don't announce when (or generally even *if*) we're going to ship a new printing until we actually start shipping that printing, which happens only when A) we've sold through the previous printing and B) the product has safely arrived in our warehouse. (A and B don't necessarily happen in that order every time.) As Ashram pointed out, if everybody waited for the next printing, that printing would never come out.

Didn't Eric make a statement to the effect that, in the case of the ACG, you were going to go against your normal policy and release the big errata dump sooner than the net printing, due to the huge number of errors? I'm about 98% sure that was the word ...


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Secret Wizard wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:

As Ashram pointed out, if everybody waited for the next printing, that printing would never come out.

Because everyone should have a chance to look at this editing trainwreck.

This is the type of thing that is not helpful and makes the staff not want to respond, but then when they don't respond people want to play the victim. "Oh woe is us. Why do they ignore us now? What did we do?"

I am not saying I agree with the policy. I am saying I disagree with some of that antics that take place from some of the forum members.


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

At this point I would settle for some quick clarifications, things like the primal companion hunter desperately need them.

I am already fighting with myself not to buy Occult Adventures, and I am quite curious about that one (and participated in the playtest) but if the playtest was any indication, then the final classes are quite likely to cause a certain degree of confusion.

Of course since I play and started to GM PFS... yeah I already feel a strong temptation to buy it so I can be prepared for players ... doing it wrong.

I would say wait to pick it up for after people have read it over and discussed it for a few months, and then it goes up on the SRD so you can look it over yourself if you get it at all. The ACG was the first and last time I'll buy a Paizo product day one.


It sure was a troubling experience, both for us customers and for Paizo as a company.
I'm sure the design and editing team learnt a lot from it and will correct their workflow accordingly to prevent something happening on this large a scale in the future.

We all aren't infallible, and Paizo is a business first, our friends a close second, so they still need to sell things to stay in business.


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Well... Considering that's by far the worst edited and most rushed hardcover book yet, I wouldn't be surprised if it took some time for it to run out of copies.... Hopefully it will take long enough to encourage Paizo to step up and bring their qualily standards back to what we are used to.

I'm sad to say it, but I certainly won't contribute to the errata release. As far as I'm concerned, every ACG copy can gather dust in a damp cellar. Paizo's "no errata 'til the reprint" reprint rule is still one their few policies that I despise... I might be misinformed but it sounds like "We don't care if my customers got a faulty product, if it doesn't sell enough, we are not fixing it.".

I never expected to be this disappointed with a Paizo product. Some books may not have been as good as others, but only the ACG reaches the point where I'm really freaking glad I didn't buy it. That book alone made me decide to never pre-order anything Paizo ever again. Ever. Cancelling my preorder felt like dodging a bullet laced with cyanide and Joker toxin.


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I bought a copy recently so that gets you one closer to a second print.


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Lemmy wrote:

Well... Considering that's by far the worst edited and most rushed hardcover... I wouldn't be surprised if it took some time for it to run out of copies....

I'm sad to say it, but I certainly won't contribute to the errata release. As far as I'm concerned, every ACG copy can gather dust in a damp cellar. Paizo's "no errata 'til the reprint" reprint rule is still one the few policies of the company that I despise... I might be misinformed but it sounds like "We don't care if my customers got a faulty product, if it doesn't sell enough, we are not fixing it.".

I never expectex to be this disappointed with a Paizo product. Some books may notbhave been as good as others, but only the ACG reaches the point where I'm really freaking glad I didn't buy it. That book alone made me decise to never pre-ordering anything Paizo ever again. Ever. Cancelling my preorder felt like dodging a bullet laced with cyanide and Joker toxin.

I don't like it either. I understand they are trying to get as much money as they can out of the print fun, and it makes sure that someone ordering a book from them after errata is released does not get a prior copy, but it is not something I care for.

I look at it like this. If they release the 2nd edition errata as a 2.0 errata then people can say "well this rule still is not clear", and it can be fixed before the 2nd book is printed. It is also one less thing they have to fix for the 3rd printing. Then if errata 2.0 is fixed the printed errata can just be 2.1.


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wraithstrike wrote:

This is the type of thing that is not helpful and makes the staff not want to respond, but then when they don't respond people want to play the victim. "Oh woe is us. Why do they ignore us now? What did we do?"

I am not saying I agree with the policy. I am saying I disagree with some of that antics that take place from some of the forum members.

How would you suggest voicing displeasure in the result? Vic is saying, afterall, that to get the fixed print version, you must buy it twice, essentially. It's a gun to the head scenario. "Give us what we want or else you don't get updates to the product you already paid for." He simply couched in terms of needing to get rid of existing product. That's a poor policy in general no matter how reasonably it is communicated. Secret Wizard's wording could have been better, but it's a perfectly valid complaint.


Part of the problem is that Paizo are getting better at estimating how many units to order for the first printing of each book. Since errata is tied to printings, the errata takes longer to materialize as Paizo improves as a publisher.

Since it seems that Paizo have finished the rules clarifications for the ACG and are either working on getting the format right or waiting for the second printing to be ordered, it might be an option to release 'tentative' errata? Basically temporary errata that is subject to change as the second print is shipped.

Dark Archive

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At the end of the day, Paizo are running a business, and have to do whatever they think will work best for them. Presumably that are not able at this point to basically throw away the remaining stocks of the first printing of the ACG.

Also, given how many RPG products I own that have never been errata'd, and never will be, it seems unfair to complain that Paizo's errata is too slow.

However, the ACG is not currently in a form which I am willing to pay money for. I am also not going to buy the Occult book (which I am quite interested in and would otherwise have bought "sight unseen") until I can be happy it meets Paizo's pre-ACG standards.

I am most likely in the minority (I usually am!) but if not then Paizo potentially have a bigger issue here than just making sure they don't lose sales of the ACG.

Dark Archive

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Lemmy wrote:
Paizo's "no errata 'til the reprint" reprint rule is still one their few policies that I despise... I might be misinformed but it sounds like "We don't care if my customers got a faulty product, if it doesn't sell enough, we are not fixing it.".

You do appreciate that you are not entitled to any errata at all, don't you?

Paizo's errata policy is perfectly clear and hasn't changed from when you bought the book (if you bought it).


wraithstrike wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:

As Ashram pointed out, if everybody waited for the next printing, that printing would never come out.

Because everyone should have a chance to look at this editing trainwreck.

This is the type of thing that is not helpful and makes the staff not want to respond, but then when they don't respond people want to play the victim. "Oh woe is us. Why do they ignore us now? What did we do?"

I am not saying I agree with the policy. I am saying I disagree with some of that antics that take place from some of the forum members.

Well, perhaps, but he have a point. Would you personally recommend to other people to buy the book so the errata comes faster than otherwise?


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amethal wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Paizo's "no errata 'til the reprint" reprint rule is still one their few policies that I despise... I might be misinformed but it sounds like "We don't care if my customers got a faulty product, if it doesn't sell enough, we are not fixing it.".
You do appreciate that you are not entitled to any errata at all, don't you?

I do. Just like I appreciate the fact that they aren't entitled to my money.

It's Paizo choice to not errata the ACG. If they don't care that their customers got a faulty product, it's their right to not fix it. All I'm saying is that I won't be giving them any money for it. I didn't buy the ACG, and I surely won't buy it before it gets its errata. If that means I'll never buy it because Paizo doesn't care enough to do it, then so be it.

I'm not demanding the errata. I'm just saying that I won't buy the ACG if it doesn't get errata'd. And I will advise others to do the same, because I don't think companies should be rewarded for selling a bad product and adopting a consumer-unfriendly policy.


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Well I may be among the few that are fairly pleased with the ACG as purchase but I'm still antsy about the lack of official errata. In a home game there's the option to discuss with GM what's a fair interpretation of rules, rebalance things if it looks like RAW make certain builds overpowered, discuss what's a reasonable amount to retrain for free should it turn out that the errata reveals that I was building my character around some sort of misconception or ignore the errata completely if it turns out that the player and GM agree that they prefer what they came up with over what Paizo revised.

Unfortunately most of my play is within PFS which does cause a bit of anxiety that some months from now a character that I'm well invested in may be meaningfully changed by unexpected revisions. So for now I tend to use the ACG mostly for feats and spells that I feel are safe choices and leave any build ideas that are heavily invested in ACG classes to home games where I feel a little safer using them.

I may be a rarity among those who enjoy Pathfinder but in the event that I'm not I'll say it doesn't seem like a good sign for a company when people generally enjoy their products but don't particularly trust the way the company manages these products. I can say I've already noticed that over the past few months my demeanor has shifted from a player/GM who couldn't stop talking about the variety of great products that are worth buying from Paizo to being someone who says you may want to think twice about buying that specific product for the following reasons.


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Paizo definitely lost some trust and goodwill on the ACG. I realize they don't *have* to, but releasing the ACG errata ASAP (contrary to their normal policy) would go a long way in rebuilding trust and communicating, "We care about giving our customers a high quality product more than we care about following some pre-established rule or policy that didn't consider we might make this level of gaff." It's just advice, not a demand. Companies that admit their mistakes and then try to rapidly "make things right" for their customers tend to do better in the long run, even if they take a short-term hit.


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And really as far as I've seen nobody is asking for them to pulp the first print and jump straight to selling the second. A bit of clarity on the grey areas of the book in the form of a centralized official document doesn't seem like a lot to ask for.


Technotrooper wrote:
Companies that admit their mistakes and then try to rapidly "make things right" for their customers tend to do better in the long run, even if they take a short-term hit.

This. There is always a justification for customer-unfriendly policies. I think it reflects a loss of focus. It does seem to be a very easy trap into which to fall, especially as a company grows.


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p-sto wrote:
And really as far as I've seen nobody is asking for them to pulp the first print and jump straight to selling the second. A bit of clarity on the grey areas of the book in the form of a centralized official document doesn't seem like a lot to ask for.

This actually isn't a bad idea. Not the pulping part. However, start selling updated copies ASAP. Move older copies to ancillary markets. Don't have any? Create some. Use them to introduce lesser well-off markets, donate some to youth groups, and so on. Get creative. Demanding a 100% return for every unit you order is unrealistic. I can't think of a single other company I interact with where I've seen anything close to such a goal, and, yes, I interact with a couple different print companies and have worked for one.


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Buri Reborn wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

This is the type of thing that is not helpful and makes the staff not want to respond, but then when they don't respond people want to play the victim. "Oh woe is us. Why do they ignore us now? What did we do?"

I am not saying I agree with the policy. I am saying I disagree with some of that antics that take place from some of the forum members.

How would you suggest voicing displeasure in the result? Vic is saying, afterall, that to get the fixed print version, you must buy it twice, essentially. It's a gun to the head scenario. "Give us what we want or else you don't get updates to the product you already paid for." He simply couched in terms of needing to get rid of existing product. That's a poor policy in general no matter how reasonably it is communicated. Secret Wizard's wording could have been better, but it's a perfectly valid complaint.

Vic is not saying that. Voice displeasure with respect. There are a lot of people who combine their displeasure with a product with a personal attack on Paizo and the staff. It's not necessary. In fact it's counterproductive.

What Paizo is saying is that they won't print errata until they feel that it's going to be beneficial to previous customers and new ones without cutting too much into their ability to make more product (financially and productivity wise).

The book may have many errors in it. When people attack the staff, they are no longer focusing on the product. They have made it personal. When people start getting personal, the recipient of the attack is more likely to miss the actual criticism of the product.

Silver Crusade

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Buri Reborn wrote:
How would you suggest voicing displeasure in the result? Vic is saying, afterall, that to get the fixed print version, you must buy it twice, essentially. It's a gun to the head scenario. "Give us what we want or else you don't get updates to the product you already paid for." He simply couched in terms of needing to get rid of existing product. That's a poor policy in general no matter how reasonably it is communicated. Secret Wizard's wording could have been better, but it's a perfectly valid complaint.

You are looking a this wrong. There is your individual point of view and the publisher's point of view. While yours may be better for you, the publisher's point of view is what is more important. Why? because they control the printing, AND they need to do what is best for business, or else you will not be getting any second, third or even first printings (If they end up losing too much money).

From their point of view they have 2000 books left. Why are they going to order more when they still have plenty to sell. Why would they trash those or sell them for less than top value instead of selling them for what their worth.
You may think they are not worth full value, or that they are not usable "as is" but you would be wrong. I know that for a fact as I use them just like they are with no issues.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Vic is not saying that.
Vic Wertz wrote:
As Ashram pointed out, if everybody waited for the next printing, that printing would never come out.

Literally, if the old versions aren't bought, you won't receive the updates we've already worked on.

I agreed Secret Wizard could have used better language.


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noretoc wrote:

You are looking a this wrong. There is your individual point of view and the publisher's point of view. While yours may be better for you, the publisher's point of view is what is more important. Why? because they control the printing, AND they need to do what is best for business, or else you will not be getting any second, third or even first printings (If they end up losing too much money).

From their point of view they have 2000 books left. Why are they going to order more when they still have plenty to sell. Why would they trash those or sell them for less than top value instead of selling them for what their worth.
You may think they are not worth full value, or that they are not usable "as is" but you would be wrong. I know that for a fact as I use them just like they are with no issues.

My point of view is that thanks to sites like d20pfsrd and the archives of nethys and their very own explicit licensing, I don't need to spend a single cent to consume Paizo's material while sticking to completely legal avenues. I can actually republish their material as long as it conforms that licensing. If they want more of my money, they should pay attention.


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I have a honest question... I get why they wouldn't want to release the errta'd print copies while they still have the faulty ones... But why not release the digital errata and update the .pdfs? What reason there is other than forcing fans to buy a poorly made product?

If they released the digital errata, buying the faulty copy wouldn't be that bad... But the fact that Paizo refuses to release even that before they run out of their current print edition makes it seem like they really don't give a damn if their fans got a bad product, after all, they already have their money.


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Wouldn't it be more customer and company friendly to simply release the errata as .pdf once is ready? (Similar to patches/hotfixes for computer games)

Webstore Gninja Minion

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Tryn wrote:

Wouldn't it be more customer and company friendly to simply release the errata as .pdf once is ready? (Similar to patches/hotfixes for computer games)

Local game stores are also our customers, and invalidating their inventory on a just-released title is not good for them.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Liz Courts wrote:
Tryn wrote:

Wouldn't it be more customer and company friendly to simply release the errata as .pdf once is ready? (Similar to patches/hotfixes for computer games)

Local game stores are also our customers, and invalidating their inventory on a just-released title is not good for them.

*scratches head*

Wouldn't releasing an eratta document help them sell more books, rather than invalidating their inventory? I mean, if somebody's heard that the ACG is needing eratta, aren't they more likely to buy the book if they know they already have access to the necessary eratta for it than if they know they'll have to wait for a later printing? Or did I misunderstand the suggestion?


The fear is that a consumer, knowing there are errata (available) may decline to buy an in-stock book from a FLGS expecting that there's a second printing coming soon.


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I have board games that have errata pdfs...

It is rather customer unfriendly to demand the current printing be fully purchased before releasing the errata for all the folks with books desiring it.

"No we will not release Errata for your books in error till we make a solid profit! Profit in building Customer trust?! We run a business!"

Shadow Lodge

Listen, guys and gals, I didn't intend for this to be another thread to complain about the book or errata policy. I was simply trying to ask if I had missed any new info in the last month where I was without internet for a while.

Please feel free to lock the thread as that has been answered.


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Anguish wrote:
The fear is that a consumer, knowing there are errata (available) may decline to buy an in-stock book from a FLGS expecting that there's a second printing coming soon.

And the alternative os having the consumer get screwed by buying a faulty product and not gettin an errata any time soon?

"We know we screwed 6000 of you with a faulty product we could easily release an errata for, but we printed 10000 books, so unless we screw another 4000 of you, you're all screwed forever. No, we don't care that the book is a mess! We printed it and we WILL make a profit... Or hold your errata hostage forever and ever."

Shadow Lodge

Irwin Mainway: Okay, Miss, I wanna correct you, alright. The full name of this product, as it appears in stores all over the county, is Johnny Switchblade: Adventure Punk.Pathfinder: Advanced Class Guide. I mean, nothing goes wrong.. little girls buy 'em, you know, they play games, they make up stories, nobody gets hurt. I mean, so Barbie takes a knife once in a while, or Ken gets cut. You know, there's no harm in that. I mean, as far as I can see, you know?

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