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I just can't see how anyone in their right mind would rather have the unsafe car NOW instead of waiting six months, and it's the same with RPG books.
So what you're saying is that I am risking my life by wanting the errata released now?
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I just can't see how anyone in their right mind would rather have the unsafe car NOW instead of waiting six months, and it's the same with RPG books.So what you're saying is that I am risking my life by wanting the errata released now?
Read my post again, I edited in a 2nd and somewhat more relatable analogy.
Also, I am not talking about the errata, I am talking about the book itself and the idea that Paizo (including many other companies, sadly they are not alone) seems to have that it's better to release a subpar book than to miss GenCon. To further play on my new analogy, what we are getting now is free DLC to fix the game... but we shouldn't need DLC to fix the game that should have just been delayed until it was finished, awesome 3-3-13 alliteration be damned.
Read my post again, I edited in a 2nd and somewhat more relatable analogy.
Also, I am not talking about the errata, I am talking about the book itself and the idea that Paizo (including many other companies, sadly they are not alone) seems to have that it's better to release a subpar book than to miss GenCon. To further play on my new analogy, what we are getting now is free DLC to fix the game... but we shouldn't need DLC to fix the game that should have just been delayed until it was finished, awesome 3-3-13 alliteration be damned.
Ok. What you're saying now makes more sense to me.
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Just for the record: I actually liked Mass Effect 3, even better than Mass Effect 2 (which had been a disappointment for me, because it basically did away with quite a lot of things I enjoyed in the first game), and I didn't even have to have the expanded ending. And I think EA has far far bigger failures in their book. Sim City, Batllefield 4 come to mind.
I just can't see how anyone in their right mind would rather have the unsafe car NOW instead of waiting six months, and it's the same with RPG books.So what you're saying is that I am risking my life by wanting the errata released now?Read my post again, I edited in a 2nd and somewhat more relatable analogy.
Also, I am not talking about the errata, I am talking about the book itself and the idea that Paizo (including many other companies, sadly they are not alone) seems to have that it's better to release a subpar book than to miss GenCon. To further play on my new analogy, what we are getting now is free DLC to fix the game... but we shouldn't need DLC to fix the game that should have just been delayed until it was finished, awesome 3-3-13 alliteration be damned.
For my personal consumption of Pathfinder products, I'm in the "I preferred it coming out 90% in August rather than 95% in December" camp (feel free to adjust the %'s as long as both are well over 50% and the second is shy of 100 since that would require waiting until 2050). I can identify what I consider overpowered (e.g. Divine Protection) and things that just don't work (e.g. undying rage giving a constitution bonus) and not use or adjust them as appropriate.
For what it's worth, there have been examples like these in previous releases (Prone Shooter and communal water walk come to mind). Part of being a GM is identifying these things and using them judiciously. I was really excited for the new classes, though, and that I don't have the skills to bridge the gap.
I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong, just trying to give a non-straw version of the people who preferred to get it months earlier out there. I'm also bummed that my hardcopy is further from the final version than it would have been. I just weight that bummed-ness differently against my eagerness than I think you do.
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Just for the record: I actually liked Mass Effect 3, even better than Mass Effect 2 (which had been a disappointment for me, because it basically did away with quite a lot of things I enjoyed in the first game), and I didn't even have to have the expanded ending. And I think EA has far far bigger failures in their book. Sim City, Batllefield 4 come to mind.
What is the official, from on high, status of the ACG errata? I don't mean where in the development stage it is when I say that.
What are the plans for release? Does Paizo want to release the errata before or after a second printing? These are pretty important questions for a lot of people and it would be cool to get a direct answer instead of us guessing and taking things the wrong way.
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Well, I can say he speaks for me and my friends, and since I'm being honest, anyone who doesn't agree is... can't think of a 'nice' word to use... except maybe entitled.
If anybody's being entitled, I would think it's the people who think they're entitled to a flawless book. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the concept of people who don't think it's a big deal to have a few things to house rule being anything but flexible.
Look at it another way. Say you are making a new car. So the company decided they want to make sure that their car is available in time for the 2015 season so they rushed it. People buy the car. People die cause the car had safety issues
Oh for God's sakes! IT'S A GAME. Your life doesn't depend on it. This is the most ridiculous analogy I've ever heard. Cars have rigorous testing BECAUSE they are life threatening. If they were as unlife-threatening as games, they wouldn't receive as rigorous testing either.
I just can't see how anyone in their right mind would rather have the unsafe car NOW instead of waiting six months, and it's the same with RPG books.
No. It is not. Having to house rule a few things is NOT the same as dying!
@ Samy
Paizo books always have some problems. A fact of life we accept because the fact is that tabletop RPGs are hard to develop, play test, and proof read. I know that every Paizo book I own has some sort of small problem, but I never went on the forums saying I wasted money until I purchased ACG.
Sure some people will complain, but I know that I wouldn't have complained if the ACG came out a month later if all the low hanging fruit was picked.
I think you're the only person saying we want a flawless book.
I just want a book where I can read through the archetype and feat section without wondering both what the wording and intent of the text is because it's just that unclear. Or plenty of cases where the wording is clear, but is definitely fishy, such as Masterminds being able to use inspiration on skill checks or Divine Protection being usable by Oracles.
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Well, I can say he speaks for me and my friends, and since I'm being honest, anyone who doesn't agree is... can't think of a 'nice' word to use... except maybe entitled.If anybody's being entitled, I would think it's the people who think they're entitled to a flawless book. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the concept of people who don't think it's a big deal to have a few things to house rule being anything but flexible.
Look at it another way. Say you are making a new car. So the company decided they want to make sure that their car is available in time for the 2015 season so they rushed it. People buy the car. People die cause the car had safety issuesOh for God's sakes! IT'S A GAME. Your life doesn't depend on it. This is the most ridiculous analogy I've ever heard. Cars have rigorous testing BECAUSE they are life threatening. If they were as unlife-threatening as games, they wouldn't receive as rigorous testing either.
I just can't see how anyone in their right mind would rather have the unsafe car NOW instead of waiting six months, and it's the same with RPG books.No. It is not. Having to house rule a few things is NOT the same as dying!
It is not "entitlement' to expect a company to put some modicum of quality control into their product. Just because "it's just a game" doesn't mean you can faff about and make something that sucks and expect people to be happy with it. It costed money, and I wanted a product that was worth the purchase.
I did not get it.
Paizo is in an especially precarious position because of the OGL. I'm kind of amazed they don't seem cognizant of the fact that unlike most consumer markets there is a 100% free alternative to purchasing their books.
You purchase the books for the sole purpose of supporting the company. If that company releases shoddy product after shoddy product, people will decide to spend their money elsewhere. Doubly true if those people can get it for free, legally.
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It is not "entitlement' to expect a company to put some modicum of quality control into their product.
That's why I said that *if* either side was entitled, it wouldn't be us. I wouldn't say that either side is entitled, but *if* either side was, it's not us.
Just because "it's just a game" doesn't mean you can faff about and make something that sucks and expect people to be happy with it.
No, of course not. But the product is 80-90% usable. From some of the comments here, you'd think it's 0% usable. They didn't make something that "sucks", they made something that has "some issues". Because "it's just a game", I don't expect everything to be spit-shine flawless; I don't expect the same level of quality control as in a car; I accept that there are going to be some issues. Now, I do understand (and agree) that the ACG has more issues than most Paizo books, but it's still FAR from 0%.
I'm now really happily keeping my ear on the pulse of 3PPs, but my original reason for doing so was because I decided to spend my money elsewhere for a while.
What Rynjin said is definitely true and if I wanted to I have all the materials I need to run a Pathfinder game without any actual Paizo content besides the core rules. I don't have to buy Paizo to get my d20 fix, but when they release something well made then my wallet gets itchy.
It's pretty hard to find since they're scattered around the boards, but I believe Erik Mona has stated clearly that the ACG was below company standards for quality and that he would personally make sure the Occult Adventures book wouldn't have the same pitfalls.
Additionally Unchained is both not a Gencon book and has been in development for a significant period of time. I don't believe it will be as equally aggravating. I'm not going to gamble my money on it, but I do think Paizo learned something from the ACG despite how little they talk about it.
I edited my post to remove the reply to that part. =(
Modules Overlord
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Not only is Paizo well aware of the OGL, we make the material from our setting-neutral books available for free on our own website, and point people to it in the "Reference" section of every Player Companion, Adventure Path, and Campaign Setting.
There is, in fact, a really complicated, almost algebraic, dance that must be done to get products out at all, that include such issues as solicitations to distributors (which happen well in advance of a project being finished), meeting retailer needs (because otherwise they stop stocking the product, which hurts both us and our fans who want to buy our products from their FLGS), print deadlines (delaying something by two weeks on our end doesn't always mean it can come out even close to just two weeks later), meeting subscriber's needs (people expect to be charged for products when we say they will, and changing when products ship can mean they get a bigger charge than expected at some future date), meeting commitments to licensors (including getting files to foreign language licensors who have built their business plans around when we told them a book would be ready, and may or may not be able to make last minute adjustments if something runs late), supporting linked products we assumed would all be available at once, and even scheduling around changing staff, sick staff, events that require us to ship staff across the country, and vacations.
Obviously the goal is to produce a product we can be proud of while juggling all those things, and I remain amazed (seeing it from the inside for less than a year) how amazingly everyone who has to do that scheduling manages to balance it all. If a problem is known before a product ships, a conversation can be had about how that impacts other factors and how important it is. That is, for example, why Erik decided that the fact the ACG had the wrong product line logo on the cover wasn't worth causing problems for everyone that relies on Paizo to hit its dates - it was embarrassing, but ultimately had no impact on the game utility of the book. (And you can hunt down and read his post about it to see why it also wasn't indicative of a systematic problem that was a sign the book had other issues).
In this case, Erik's already said we fell short of that goal. But the issue is never a matter of simply sitting on a book for extra weeks or months and all the problems get taken care of, Delaying a product causes problems as well, and can even introduce new errors.
I'm certainly not telling anyone they shouldn't be annoyed, or that we don't want to hear your concerns. Only you can decide what is a good value for your money. And I had nothing to do with the internal process on this book (I wrote for it only as a freelancer - it was off to print within days of my arrival here). But I have realized that even as a 20-year veteran of the tabletop RPG industry I had no idea how many balls Paizo's managers and staff are juggling at once, and I did want to offer some context on why there are considerations beyond just "We'd like to sell this at Gen Con" that impacts how many double-checks, triple-checks, and quadruple-checks a product gets.
Yes, we need to make sure we produce a good product. But we also have to work within the realities of being a publisher, or Paizo can't exist at all. There was a process that managed to produce award-winning books over hundreds of products and years of growth and development. The process broke down for this book. The Publisher has stated the process has changed as a result. That's not a minor undertaking.
And I can understand and sympathize with that, but not for not taking steps to mitigate the problem, which they have not.
I have yet to see a good, well reasoned explanation for why the Errata document (for ANY book, mind you, not just the ACG) cannot be released as an online resource before the second printing. Just a list of changes. Which has already been done SEVERAL times recently.
Despite my annoyance at the Crane Wing errata it is a good example of what I'm talking about: Just a simple post that says "Change this word to that word, add this line, and there is the new function".
Now multiply that by everything that needs to be fixed in the ACG. Which, as has been mentioned, is a long way towards completion at this point.
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Modules Overlord
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Now multiply that by everything that needs to be fixed in the ACG. Which, as has been mentioned, is a long way towards completion at this point.
Until it is complete, there's no point in releasing it. Right now, the draft errata may itself have errors, and that really would make things worse. We're certainly not going to release errata for this book before the errata has gone through editing. By the time it is complete, the book may be sold out anyway. (Erik stated in his much-quoted comments that there might be no need to release it early.) Deciding when and how to release it does nothing to increase the speed at which it is completed, and we've said it's not done yet.
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Thanks Owen for breaking some stuff down for us and communicating effectively with us.
As Mark said a page or two ago the team has expanded a bit and with that he believes that each book will get more tender loving care than was previously possible. It sounds like Paizo has, behind the scenes, been making some changes to make the process better able to produce quality gaming material.
I can understand that setting deadlines and making deals so far in advance is a serious reason for why books cannot be delayed and I could definitely accept that as the reason for the ACGs subpar quality compared to other Paizo releases.
At this point though I can't say that's what bugs me. No matter what the circumstances are the fact is that the ACG was below par for Paizo and a lot of people bought it believing that what they were buying was Paizo core line quality. I want to be satisfied with my product, but cannot as long as the book has such serious problems in certain sections.
What would make me happy?
Errata released after it goes through Paizo certification whether a second print run is ready to go or not.. Yes it is against usual policy, but I believe that extending a hand to the players in such a way would make myself and a lot of other people regain some of the trust that was lost. It would portray Paizo as a company that's able to both accept fault for their mistakes and take responsibility for them.
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Modules Overlord
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The person who said we wouldn't release errata until a second printing also stated she was making a comment on our general policy, and she has no special information on this specific product.
I also have no knowledge on the plan for this specific product. All I know is we certainly won't release it until it's done, and (last I knew) it's not done yet. If some specific call has been made on this product, I am unaware of it (and I have no special reason to think I'd be aware of it).
Erik has publicly stated we might not even have to make that decision. Obviously, that would work out nicely for everyone.
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Lots of good stuff
So personally for me, this post is great. It explains from the Paizo side why things happened as they did. Owning up that they knew it was bad, but had to make a decision based on all the considerations you mentioned. And they decided this was their best choice. For reasons other than getting GenCon.
Like, if this was posted say a few days, or weeks, or even a month after the release, I wouldn't have been "as" upset with the ACG errors as I have been. This gives the transparency that I really enjoy receiving.
@Chess Pwn and Owen
Agreed. In the world encyclopedia under "Effective Communication" would be Owen's icon.
I'm curious what people's opinion on this are.
Do you feel that the ACG errata will come before Pathfinder Unchained and Occult Adventures or that the ACG errata will come after Pathfinder Unchained but before Occult Adventures or that the ACG errata won't be till after Pathfinder Unchained and Occult Adventures are released?
Also Please don't let this question concern the speed at which the Paizo staff is able to complete work. But let it focus on person estimates of when you feel we'll get the errata in relation to two dates that are easily identified by the releases of two other products that have been announced.
I think that such a question may be a bit too specific. How do you like this one?
The message board doesn't have a poling option, so this makes more sense and allows people who don't want to post to have a voice. The options have had reasons for belief kept out so the posters can include reasoning in their post.
I voted for early because
What would make me happy?
Errata released after it goes through Paizo certification whether a second print run is ready to go or not.. Yes it is against usual policy, but I believe that extending a hand to the players in such a way would make myself and a lot of other people regain some of the trust that was lost. It would portray Paizo as a company that's able to both accept fault for their mistakes and take responsibility for them.
But I'm not wanting a straight poll. I'm more interested in the why people think their choice than what their actual answer is. Or as you put it, I want their "reasons for belief". Thus removing those removes my goal of the question.
Maybe I'm not paying attention, but I've yet to see a real argument for the delay of errata. Usually the argument is based on entitlement, but that's a false premise and I just keep scrolling.
I'm not on a great device for formatting, so I'll just say how to find it. Click the Help/FAQ link in the upper right. Note which books have been updated since the last time you looked (in this case, Core Rulebook, 3/6). If you come back every month or so, you can make sure to catch all of them while they're still highlighted in red. This one is about how damage dice change with size changes.Good walkthrough Berinor. As an interesting aside, if you check for the newest FAQ tomorrow...there might be a nice, highly requested, and totally different FAQ there too as the newest (strong signs point to another one that was tough and has taken a long time to work through but we managed to find a solution by listening to lots of feedback and ideas from the forums, but tomorrow is another day, so be sure to stay tuned!).
Did this get released somewhere obscure? 'Cause I did not findz.
Did this get released somewhere obscure? 'Cause I did not findz.I'm not on a great device for formatting, so I'll just say how to find it. Click the Help/FAQ link in the upper right. Note which books have been updated since the last time you looked (in this case, Core Rulebook, 3/6). If you come back every month or so, you can make sure to catch all of them while they're still highlighted in red. This one is about how damage dice change with size changes.Good walkthrough Berinor. As an interesting aside, if you check for the newest FAQ tomorrow...there might be a nice, highly requested, and totally different FAQ there too as the newest (strong signs point to another one that was tough and has taken a long time to work through but we managed to find a solution by listening to lots of feedback and ideas from the forums, but tomorrow is another day, so be sure to stay tuned!).
Not that I have seen. I looked at all the books' lists (since I have seen the update on the "last updated" for each book not update for a few hours in the past) and I also checked to see if the PDT had posted and nothing yet. I'm betting it's because they're on that slacker west coast time. :-)
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Modules Overlord
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Realistically, even when Mark is done with an errata, there are multiple steps between his typing ending and the post being ready for your viewing pleasure, involving multiple people, all of whom also have other duties (and can end up with their own emergencies in their own departments).
So we MAY get the FAQ he's finished today, or some step along the way may mean we need to delay it, to make sure it's exactly what we need it to be and ready for public consumption.
I understand. Thought it was a done deal. Will wait for it.
Just out of curiousity, are the writers still open to suggestions on tweaks regarding errata or are all bets off on the final product?!
The errata thread seems to still be accepting stuff and Mark "applies sticky notes" to the proposal since it hasn't gone to layout yet.
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Maybe I'm not paying attention, but I've yet to see a real argument for the delay of errata. Usually the argument is based on entitlement, but that's a false premise and I just keep scrolling.
I can see several understandable reasons why Paizo won't publish errata just yet.
1) The errata isn't finished yet. For some bits, a finished revised rule is available. For some bits, there's just "we need to do something about this, but we don't know what yet". And some bits are still just being noticed for the first time.
Now imagine that Paizo released a set of errata every month. That'd be fine for one or two months. But then people would start complaining that it's hard to stay up to date if you don't want to pore over change docs every month. They'd rather read through a list of the important changes once.
2) They want to get it right. You've seen the uproar over Crane Style. An errata that doesn't work well, and that needs to be errataed again, that's a nightmare.
3) This has always been the policy. I'm not saying that's a good reason for it to stay that way, but it's definitely a reason for why things started out as they did. And in previous books, there were fewer severe flaws, so back then that policy might've been a good one.
4) They don't want the PRD to be different from the latest printing. Because that would be confusing.
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I think Paizo's policy was good with previous products. But I also think the ACG is much more severely flawed than other books, so I'm not so sure it's the right policy in this case.
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All that said, I'd like to say that I own the hardcover and that I'm quite happy with it. I very much like several of the new classes and archetypes. Much of the content is in good enough shape that I can play with it. I'm looking forward to the errata, but in the meantime I'm enjoying playing a Slayer, Investigator, Bloodrager, Arcanist, Huntsmaster Inquisitor and I'm thinking about starting a Brawler.
1 and 2 aren't even actual arguments because literally nobody is asking for a badly written word document for errata. We're asking for the errata after it has gone to editing and layout since it is already past the writing phase.
Three is an argument and the main point in contention. We have one side saying that since the ACG was below Paizo's standards that they should breach policy to make it up to the players who purchased the book and were very displeased. Another side saying the book is fine as is and the eventual errata doesn't need to come any sooner because X.
X usually being either "because that's how they've always done it" or "because you're acting too entitled."
4 is a pretty valid argument for why an errata before a new printing could be an issue, but at the same time there is always going to be an issue with people who own outdated editions. If I own a 1st edition printing and check the PRD after a second printing my text wont match. An errata release would just make this issue happen sooner. Though I know most would be happy their content doesn't match because the content in the 1st edition has so many mistakes.
All that aside I can agree with you that the ACG has some good stuff. Ignoring the stuff that makes no sense there is a lot of fun one could have with the book. Since the Hunter got FAQ'd it works out pretty well. I really just want the rest of the material to be brought up to par so I don't have to ignore about a third of the book.
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Reading the forums I feel like the only person that enjoys the book.
It has a few problems but it's not the end of the world.
Would I be unhappy if every book had the same kind of issues? Yup - but as this is an extreme outlier it doesn't really bother me at all.
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You're not the only one, I also enjoy the book quite a bit, while still not disputing that the book has its problems.
Having said that, despite enjoying the book, I do believe errata should be released before the new printing, but then, I think that should be done with all books, as I feel the whole point of an errata is to tide you over until the patched version is printed.
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Ascalaphus:
1) I'd rather get smaller chunks of finished errata. As long as it's added to the same doc/pdf, I don't see MORE complaints than no errata at all. For instance if the brawler section/feats/ect is done but another section needs more work I see no reason not to release the finished sections.
2) They wheren't afraid to make the new SLA ruling after the Crane Style uproar... But I think we all understand and want correct and well thought out errata.
3) Many have never been thrilled with it. (some products may NEVER get errata they need)
4) More confusing than my bolt ace getting a gun, gun smithing and proficiency in firearms instead of crossbow related abilities/items? I think the confusion would go down, not up.
Overall I think the book with the errata will be an awesome book. As is, there is a sizable portion that doesn't work, doesn't work 'right' or just starts an argument on how it works.
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< Is literally running a Hunter with ACG teamwork feats and some spells in a campaign right now.
< Has used the ACG to make NPCs while DMing
The ACG isn't impossible to enjoy or impossible to use. It's just riddled with errors, unclear wordings, and unclear intent.
If I were to compare the ACG to food it would be like buying a fresh roll of sourdough from your local bakery and taking it home to find that weevils have eaten a large chunk from the roll! Sure you can empty the weevils out and cut away the parts they messed up and the sourdough roll will taste delicious, but about a third of that roll was wasted because the baker let weevils get into the roll! Then I go to the baker and complain and he just stares at me for a while without saying anything then tells me "We have a new kind of French roll in development! Get excited for its release!"
The actual trolls aside I believe everyone here agrees that errata would be something to get excited for.
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So, the original topic was me asking "Hey guys/gals. I've been away for a month, and was wondering if I'd missed anything on the ACG front?"
I've mentioned a few times that that has been answered, and to be honest, basically NOTHING after post #3 or so, was on topic, and a Mod should feel free to lock this topic. It' been answered. I had no intention of making another version of the few that already exist on complaining about the errata/ACG/whatever.
To be fair though this is so far the most constructive and polite "complaining about ACG" thread I've ever been a part of.
If I could point Jason at any specific thread discussing ACG it would probably be this one.
