Hmm, Brinebones was clearly never intended to actually wind up in a location deck as far as I can tell from reading through the card, so I'm rather unsure of this. I usually follow RAW (Rules As Written) but in this case the rules and story clash so strongly that the flavor of the scenario is lost by following them.
Reading #1 is that Brinebones is shuffled into a location deck (you don't know if he is or not, and you don't know which one). You'd then encounter him as a normal villain as he is now in a location. Since there are no additional win conditions listed on the scenario card, you would simply need to corner and defeat one of the villains in order to win (see page 16 of S&S rulebook).
Reading #2 is a more pedantic reading of "Check to See Whether the Villain Escapes" that says you need to retrieve blessings from the blessings deck to shuffle in, in which case what you'd do is split out Brinebones from the blessings deck, shuffle the remaining blessings and deal them out, then shuffle Brinebones back into the blessings deck.
#1 seems wrong and #2 goes far beyond the level of pedantry I'm usually comfortable with, but keeps the flavor of the scenario. Bar any official ruling however, I'll be doing #2 if that situation is ever encountered by the time I get to that scenario in the coming days for my own game.
The rules only specify that you need to corner a defeat a villain to win, it does not specify that it has to be the one on the scenario card. It does say when there are multiple villains there are usually additional conditions for winning, but in this case there are no additional conditions that must be met. Because of that is why I'm looking for ways to ensure that Brinebones stays in the blessings deck where he belongs, which is how I got interpretation 2 above.
I will suggest an option #4.
EDIT: Option 2 seems correct to me. (End EDIT)
If the villain is undefeated, do the same thing, but retrieve the blessings from the blessings deck instead of from the box.
Brinebones is not a blessing. Therefore, he can not fulfill the requirement of this part of encountering a villain. You check to make sure you have blessings and not Brinebones. I'd suggest that if you happen to get Brinebones, set him aside, get another blessing, then shuffle Brinebones back in with the remaining blessings, as that seems to fit the spirit of the scenario power.
And just to verify that you are indeed allowed to examine those random blessings from the blessings deck, see this post. I usually don't examine them, but there is nothing that says you can't as far as I know.
I will suggest an option #4.
If the villain is undefeated, do the same thing, but retrieve the blessings from the blessings deck instead of from the box.Brinebones is not a blessing. Therefore, he can not fulfill the requirement of this part of encountering a villain. You check to make sure you have blessings and not Brinebones. I'd suggest that if you happen to get Brinebones, set him aside, get another blessing, then shuffle Brinebones back in with the remaining blessings, as that seems to fit the spirit of the scenario power.
And just to verify that you are indeed allowed to examine those random blessings from the blessings deck, see this post. I usually don't examine them, but there is nothing that says you can't as far as I know.
Option 4 looks like a cleaner version of 2, as per your link you are allowed to look anyway, so you don't gain any info that you weren't allowed to gain anyway (unlike option 2 where you'd be able to examine additional cards from the blessings deck to see its general composition, even if you don't know the ordering). It fulfills the same general premise though of ensuring that Brinebones doesn't get shuffled into a location, citing the same rule that I did. In general, I'm a fan of it and can see that easily being the official ruling because it both fits with the rules as written as well as the scenario's story/flavor/design/whateveryoucallit.
Option 4 looks like a cleaner version of 2
Ah. Yes it is. Sorry about that. That is what happens when your brain is going to explode from too much SQL at work and trying to catch up on the forums over lunch. Well then consider my post to instead of presenting a new option to be in support of option 2.
Nice candidate for the weekly can of worms.
Actually I would tend to say that when you fail to defeat the villain you draw blessings and nothing else to shuffle in locations. But it doesn't say you SEARCH the blessing decks for blessings or EXAMINE the blessing decks for blessings(since I guess they didn't think of non-blessings in the blessing deck at that time).
So indeed what happens if you draw Brinebones?
I don't see why you would reshuffle it in the deck (since written nowhere). The two options I see are :
A- "Finish what you are doing" (i. e. draw enough other blessings, escape the villain, reshuffle locations...), so Brinebones would end up on top of the blessing deck and would be "advanced>discarded>encountered>reshuffled>advanced" at the start of the next turn.
Or
B- "Apply scenario" meaning since I have nothing else to do with Brinebones that discard it when i draw it, I immediately "discard>encounter>reshuffle>advance", and keep on until I finally draw a blessing at which point I would restart filling my hand with enough blessings to allow the villain to escape (potebtially reencountering Brinebones many time before I can).
I would discard/bury/banish/remobve from the game option A because of the Mike's unofficial #1 golden rule : this is not MTG, you do not stack/FILO effects before resolving them.
So I would support option A... until instructed otherwise and proven guilty, which i will be as usual by Mike.
Gosh, I'm already in Gaby's list of 7 this week. I should better keep quite for a while :-)
Per Hawkmoon's link you are allowed to examine the random cards chosen by Cure, etc. I could see this as also being able to examine the blessings you are going to shuffle into the location decks due to the villain escaping. Therefore, the workflow would look like this (assuming villain has escaped and was undefeated):
1. Remove top N-1 cards from the blessings deck, where N is the number of open locations.
2. Examine those cards. If one of them is Brinebones, set him aside and draw the next card in the blessings deck to replace him.
3. Shuffle those N-1 blessings and the scenario villain together, then distribute 1 card from that pile to each open location deck.
4. Shuffle each open location deck.
5. If Brinebones was set aside in step 2, shuffle him into the blessings deck.
While it is true that it doesn't say anywhere to shuffle non-blessings back into the blessings deck after grabbing them, I think it makes sense to do so. The above procedure is similar to drawing an opening hand without your favored card type where you set the old cards aside, draw a fresh hand, repeat until you get a hand with your favored card type, and then shuffle the old cards back in.
EDIT: If looking at the blessings you draw is not allowed, then you'd follow the workflow from option 2 in my above post in that you'd first remove Brinebones, then shuffle the blessings deck and get N-1 random blessings (since they are all blessings at that point), then shuffle Brinebones back into the blessings deck. This lets you see the overall composition of the blessings deck but does not reveal card order nor the cards you are putting into location decks.
My copy of S&S clearly states that you draw the blessings needed from the box if a Villain escapes. Which is how I remember the rule from RotR as well (and I just checked and that is so)
Why does Goldtooth make you discard Blessings? I don't see anything except ranged damage on that Villain?
If HE defeats you, you take damage. If you defeat Him he is either defeated or he escapes.
As such I am unsure what the debate is about?
This is the same in RotR and S&S. (Though maybe slightly tweaked in S&S).
Check to See Whether the Villain Escapes. If any locations are not closed, the villain escapes. If you defeated the villain, count the number of open locations, subtract 1, and retrieve that number of random blessings from the box. Shuffle the villain in with those blessings, then deal 1 card to each open location and shuffle those location decks. If the villain is undefeated, do the same thing, but retrieve the blessings from the blessings deck instead of from the box. (Note that if you did not defeat the villain, there is always at least one open location: the one in which it was just encountered.)
After you finish the encounter with the villain, the following happens:
1. If you defeated the villain, close the location the villain was in.
2. Check to see if the villain can escape. If there are any open locations, which may or may not include the location you just encountered the villain at, the villain can escape.
3. If the villain can escape, what happens next depends on if the villain was defeated or undefeated in the encounter.
-If defeated, get blessings from the box and do the villain-blessing shuffle.
-If undefeated, get blessings from the blessings deck and do the villain-blessings shuffle.
You check to see if the villain escapes whether the villain was defeated or undefeated. So, the possible outcomes are:
Defeated villain, all locations closed = You win.
Defeated villain, some locations open = Get blessings from the box and shuffle.
Undefeated villain, some location open = Get blessings from the blessings deck and shuffle.
Since there is another villain in the blessings deck in this scenario, the question was what happens if the villain was undefeated and you have to get blessings from the blessings deck.
There are a bunch of interestning sub-cans of worms here.
For example, as I mentionned earlier, the rule doesn't say DRAW, EXAMINE or SEARCH blessings from the blessing deck, but RETRIEVE from the blessing deck, which to my knowledge is a term never used or explained elsewhere.
I guess a clear definition of RETRIEVING would actually solve the puzzle (did Mike mentionned he LOVED puzzles...).
For example what some of you propose is actually that RETRIEVING a certain number of cards bearing a certain set of criteria in a certain deck means :
"drawing from the deck until you have those cards, setting aside those who do not qualify; then BEFORE doing what you are told (or anything else for that matter) with the cards retrieved, reshuffling those set aside in the remaining deck."
But I could argue that RETRIEVING such cards could mean for example :
"drawing from the deck until you have those cards, dealing in turn with any card that doesn't comply with the criteria as if you had just encountered or played it before discarding it; then doing what you are told with the cards retrieved."
Until RETRIEVIng is defined, both definitions above are legit...
This is the same in RotR and S&S. (Though maybe slightly tweaked in S&S).
Check to See Whether the Villain Escapes. If any locations are not closed, the villain escapes. If you defeated the villain, count the number of open locations, subtract 1, and retrieve that number of random blessings from the box. Shuffle the villain in with those blessings, then deal 1 card to each open location and shuffle those location decks. If the villain is undefeated, do the same thing, but retrieve the blessings from the blessings deck instead of from the box. (Note that if you did not defeat the villain, there is always at least one open location: the one in which it was just encountered.)After you finish the encounter with the villain, the following happens:
1. If you defeated the villain, close the location the villain was in.
2. Check to see if the villain can escape. If there are any open locations, which may or may not include the location you just encountered the villain at, the villain can escape.
3. If the villain can escape, what happens next depends on if the villain was defeated or undefeated in the encounter.
-If defeated, get blessings from the box and do the villain-blessing shuffle.
-If undefeated, get blessings from the blessings deck and do the villain-blessings shuffle.You check to see if the villain escapes whether the villain was defeated or undefeated. So, the possible outcomes are:
Defeated villain, all locations closed = You win.
Defeated villain, some locations open = Get blessings from the box and shuffle.
Undefeated villain, some location open = Get blessings from the blessings deck and shuffle.Since there is another villain in the blessings deck in this scenario, the question was what happens if the villain was undefeated and you have to get blessings from the blessings deck.
This is brutal. Since the Check to see if the Villain Escapes is after the Check to see if he was defeated, then I never thought to check for text in that paragraph that would relate to an undefeated Villain.
I have been playing (and teaching) that wrong since 2013.
Played 2 tonight!
So we are playing this scenario right now and lost to the villain two times (lost the scenario too). Any resolution to this?
The way I see it there are three options if you lose to Goldtooth and Brinebones is included in the blessings Goldtooth takes with him
1. Brinebones actually goes into one of the locations and is now a secondary villain that behaves just like Goldtooth (so you could theoretically beat the scenario without fighting Goldtooth again)
2. You put brinebones aside and replace him with a real blessing and you don't fight him, then shuffle him back in the blessings deck
3. Same as above but you have to encounter brinebones before shuffling
We are playing again in a couple of weeks and would love an official resolution to this. Vic plz?
While we are at it, if you are the only character at a location and you fight Goldtooth, do you get hit twice with his "2 characters at a location are hit with a D4+1 combat damage before and after encounter" power? I dont think so but just want to check.
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2. You put brinebones aside and replace him with a real blessing and you don't fight him, then shuffle him back in the blessings deck
It's this. The reason:
1. You encounter Brinebones if you discard him from the blessings deck.
2. When resolving the escape of an undefeated villain, you explicitly pull random blessings from the blessings deck.
Thus, if your random pull includes Brinebones, it's not being discarded, but it's not a blessing; thus, he doesn't leave the blessings deck. Swap him for a blessing, then shuffle. :)
