I know there's a roaring debate in general if a healer is needed. I, for one, was in the "wand of infernal healing is enough" camp, but...
Well, last week my group's shaman swapped out for a monk, leaving us without a healer. We grabbed a wand of infernal healing and a wand of CLW, gave it to the sorcerer and rogue respectively, and just tagged up between battles. It...kinda worked. We are tenth level, so we burned charges like they were quarters in an 80s arcade, going through about 1/5 a wand after each battle. Also, we had no means to combat status conditions, negative levels, ability damage and drain, and stuff like that.
So, my bloodrager got eaten by a megaladon, because 120hpoint goes fast when you're getting bitten for 40 damage, swallowed, and digested for a good chunk more each round, and nobody can heal you for more than nine HP at most.
I have volunteered to return as a divine caster, to shore up our weaknesses (We also have a goblin monk with an agile amulet, a human rogue/fighter, and a gnome sorcerer). I started another thread asking what's the best healer, and it seems the consensus is spirit guide life oracle with FCB to boost channeling from aasimar or half-elf using elf FCB. So, now I know the answer to that question, I'm wondering if that's overkill. So now I'm wondering...what do we NEED? You know, minimum?
Clearly, for our party at least, post-battle CLW is not going to cut it, as emergency megaheals are required. Also, ever since about eighth level, status attacks and ability damage have been an occasional factor.
So, what do you think I should make sure I'm able to cure? How do I make sure I have, at minimum, Pathfinder's version of FF's "esuna"?
TL; DR? - What spells/abilities will cover all my bases for healing any possible status alignments, ability damage, drain, negative levels, etc, that bad guys can throw at us, using the minimum resources possible, at 10th level?
As always, thanks for your responses!
I don't think the party needs that much healing unless you really wanted to play a glorified hit point battery. I think there are better options for a divine caster than focusing on healing - think of it proactively preventing damage from hitting your party by buffing them, debuffing your enemies, and dealing damage yourself. You'll still lean on wands of CLW to some extent but you'll have status removal and options for emergency healing in combat.
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I've never had an experience where anything was required beyond a wand of CLW/Infernal Healing.
The problem I think you are having is that status removal and "healing" are two separate things. Unfortunately this is where scrolls and UMD come into play.
Before the heal spell comes into play, in combat healing is usually less efficient than just killing the enemy faster. The cure line of spells simply don't heal enough damage to actually mitigate anything. At best they may negate 1 round worth of damage.
A cure critical wounds heals 4d8+CL hp. At 7th level when you get the spell that is 25 damage. Or about 1 hit from a single two handed weapon wielder. It's better to focus on killing the enemy than trying to heal through it, generally speaking. Only when someone is close to death unconsciousness is it at all practical to heal them. Only because of the loss of action economy is a big deal.
The only way to have everything covered is to have lots of scrolls of the various condition removal spells. Because they're not worth preparing until you need them, and you never know when you'll need them.
Be aware you could play a battle oracle who can contribute significantly to the overall ability to deal damage, have all the cure spells as spells known (with the ability to spontaneously cast them) and pickup scrolls of all the status removal spells without having them as spells known and then use them without UMD.
There is no Esuna spell, there are lots of several different spells to accomplish different things. The closest you might get is break enchantment and dispel magic can do an okay job of removing things that the specialized spells can. But they have a penalty to do it compared to the specialized spells.
Fine, scrolls and wands to cover status removal...but of what, specifically, do I want to make sure and not miss?
I realize a non-specialized for healing divine caster can cover the necessary bases. That's why I'm asking in this thread - what are those minimum bases, so that I can cover them and move on to doing something else with my divine caster? I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear with my original post.
I may well incorporate paragon surge for those spells that are best served as scrolls instead of spells known, by the way, so the real things I need to know are ones I will regularly use with large versatility, such as restoration.
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You have a lot of melee characters (50-75% depending on if the rogue/fighter is melee or ranged focused). You're going to need to improve your tactics to reduce the amount of healing you need. Being in melee usually means getting hit often. If you can afford cloaks of displacement (or any other way to get a miss chance) you should seriously consider it. Even if it's just a wand of blur, that 20% miss chance will help. Also consider getting wands of energy resistance. That should help with preventing some damage.
The amount of healing you need is dependent on the party make up, tactics, and type of encounters you deal with. My players need more healing than many of the people on the boards need. That doesn't mean that anyone is playing wrong. It just means that the games are different. You need to figure out how much healing your specific group needs. Often groups substitute prevention for cure, but they are usually just spending their resources differently. The old adage, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" does seem to hold true in Pathfinder most of the time.
I've usually found that the status and ability damage effects are what you really need a healer for. My experience of the game is that you do not so much need a dedicated healer as you need at least one character that can heal the others without recourse to items or the like. A bard just cuts it, a paladin definitely does.
Generally you need a means to deal with:
Paragon Surge doesn't really work so well to do that anymore. Now, every time you cast it (in a day) you would get the same spell known instead of being able to gain different ones within a day. May not be too important for your use, but something to be aware of.
There was an FAQ about it somewhere.
As far as what not to miss...
1) Go down the cleric/oracle spell list
2) Find every spell that removes a status
3) Buy a scroll of it
If you really want to have everything covered. I'm not sure there are "minimum" bases that should be covered.
Look at a class guide for cleric or oracle to learn which spells are important enough to actually prepare or take as a spell known.
One of the big thing about what "necessary" is depends on some factors.
1) your tactics, are you used to rushing in and not caring and being fixed later? If so you're taking more damage/effects than you could if you used better tactics. So your Tactics effect how much is necessary
2) what type of enemies are you fighting? Are curses common? Blindness? Deafness? Is it a single person that gets hit or everyone? If it's just a single person every so often, grab a scroll of each removal and call it good.
3) Are you limited by time? a lot of bad effects can be taken care of by waiting it out for a few days or weeks. Slowing the speed your adventures are going can save you those resources.
Depends on the party really.
I've seen high level barbarian burn a cure light wounds wand after every combat.
Scrolls and UMD are useful but if you don't get an opportunity replenish you stock of scrolls and wands things get ugly quick.
I would say you don't need to play a dedicated healer, but you DO need a way to add something your team doesn't have outside of healing.
a goblin monk with an agile amulet, a human rogue/fighter, and a gnome sorcerer
So my first question is "What kind of sorcerer?" Is he a blaster? A debuffer? Does he focus on taking enemies out of the fight or just throwing out as much damage as magically possible? Does he buff? Does he focus on summons?
If your Sorc is a blaster, then my instincts tell me "Get either debuffs or buffs to go with your healing." The Witch, for instance, is one of my favorite classes to play the "healer" role with because she has so many ways of weakening enemies for the rest of the party. Her low level hexes involve things like Evil Eye and Cackle; her spells are all about indirectly hurting the enemy (y'know, by making them susceptible to the rest of the party)... She has healing capability and could use scrolls to cover the bases she otherwise couldn't. Etc.
Alternatively, buffing your team up the wazoo at the start of the day with hour-long spells or 10 min/level spells before a fight seems likely to happen isn't exactly a horrible idea either.
Restoration, Lesser, Restoration, Raise Dead, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Heal (Next Level), Remove Disease, Neutralize Poison, Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment, Remove Curse.
These are all helpful, and available from a cleric or oracle. I recommend Cleric simply due to earlier spell access. Most of these could live on scrolls easily.
A battle cleric could cover all of this and still be a bruiser.
Lets say a 20 pt Human cleric of gorum.
Str: 16(Base)+2(Racial)+2(Level)+2(Belt)=22
Dex: 12(Base)
Con: 12(base)
Wis: 14(Base)+2(Headband)=16[fine for 6ths, get a +4 headband by 13th]
Int: 11(Base)
Chr: 10(Base)
Feats:
1:
Human:
3:Power Attack
5:Weapon Focus
7:
9:
+2greatsword = 7(BaB)+2(Weapon)+6(Strength)-2(PA)+1(WF)=+14 to hit
+2greatsword = 7(Dice)+2(weapon)+9(strength)+6(PA)=2d6+17 or 24avg
DPR is around 23.
Not great but not bad for someone with four feats left, minimal gear, around 16,000 of 62,000, and no buffs.
Might I suggest the outflank feat for the entire party, minus the sorcerer? Also the menacing enchant is nice. At 11th you would probably want the Divine Interference Feat however.
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I'd work with cleric.
The reason? Leave a spell slot or two open of each level, that you can fill with the appropriate status removal effect as needed. 'big heals' can always be swapped out using spontaneous cure.
No need to worry about spending cash on scrolls, or running out of scrolls.
Keep up with the CLW wands.
Earliest access to the big combat cure of Heal.
Access to the entire cleric spell list as you need it.
==Aelryinth
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I'd work with cleric.
The reason? Leave a spell slot or two open of each level, that you can fill with the appropriate status removal effect as needed. 'big heals' can always be swapped out using spontaneous cure.
No need to worry about spending cash on scrolls, or running out of scrolls.
Keep up with the CLW wands.
Earliest access to the big combat cure of Heal.Access to the entire cleric spell list as you need it.
==Aelryinth
Also This ^^
Aelryinth is correct, leaving spell slots open is amazing.
He could always do something really weird.
Go False Priest Sorcerer. Buy exactly 1 scroll of each spell.
False Channel (Su)
At 9th level, the false priest can use his own magic to power spell completion and spell trigger items that use divine spells. He expends a sorcerer spell slot that is at least 1 level higher than the level of the spell he’s trying to activate, then makes a Use Magic Device check. If he succeeds, the item’s spell occurs and the item or charge is not expended. If he fails, nothing happens. Whether he succeeds or fail, his spell slot is expended.
This ability replaces the bloodline power gained at 9th level.
Never use up the item, and have access to virtually any divine spell you want.
A really minimum-investment route: at least one level in Life Oracle, with the Life Link revelation. Then, pick up Boots of the Earth from ISG, ring of regeneration once you can afford it, anything that gives you fast healing or regeneration (with Boots of the Earth by far the cheapest). Using those boots and judicious Life Link, you can heal all the HP damage your party has in between fights for no spell slots or wand charges used, just some time. It also gives all the status removal spells on your spell list, so you can auto use wands and just have to pass a caster level check for scrolls. Then, you can have the rest of your levels be whatever you like, and you should have at least minimum needs covered.
Personally, I like the Cleric or the Life Oracle because I think channel is underutilized by many. I like having Channel Ray or Selective Channel as a means of getting heals to my allies, as they both eliminate the risk of having to walk up and touch my ally in melee combat (also, you can Quicken it to be only a move action, leaving you to do what you want in a standard action). Then I take a Restoration and heal spell as one of my spells. After that, I like working with whatever I can do to help combat, be it spells or combat.
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Level 10, Go cleric, use summons, get a wand of lesser restoration, a wand of infernal healing or cure light wound, a scroll of raise dead (frankly if you need more than a scroll for raise dead, something is wrong).
Why do clerics use summons? To be quite honest, Summons brings damage and also are here to soak damage that your players aren't going to take, on top of it, they come with spells as well, some can even heal. Sacred Summon is basically a must have making Summons matching your alignment standard action is amazing.
Yeah can't say it enough leaving some spell slots open will save your hide more often than not.
Thanks for the responses.
To the person who asked about the sorcerer, she is kind of a generalist. Usually starts the fight with haste, maybe throws out a slow, or a battlefield control like wall of force, and then starts blasting. Arcane bloodline, has some metamagic to hit stuff harder.
I generally prefer spontaneous casters to prepared, just for the simplicity, which was why I was leaning oracle over cleric or shaman. I didn't think about cleric leaving slots open...but, yeah, that would pretty much cover anything you need as you need it, though, wouldn't it?
I do prefer the idea of a non-melee divine caster over a bruiser. We're only working with 15-pt buy, and it would let me dump strength if I was a pure caster. I'm not terribly familiar with the cleric/oracle spell list, as far as offensive abilities are concerned. So, what are the fun ones to remember? I know the guides cover core, but many have not been updated with all the fancy new spells.
Unfortunately the divine spell list isn't huge on highly offensive spells, at least not like Fireball or Chain Lightning - it focuses more on buffing and control, with some debuffs and summons as well. Some Oracle mysteries help to make a more blaster-y Oracle, though, but I haven't played around with anything but Life.
Also, in regard to the boots of the earth and life link combo...that item is not listed in d20pfsrd. Can you link to it? All non hard cover book stuff requires GM approval.
Well I like spirit guide for adding spells daily via my wandering spirit, so that might open up some options too?
'Change spells daily' is a euphemism for 'stop the adventure and wait until tomorrow so I can remove your debuff.'
It also means you do have to buy scrolls if you don't want to play that game.
Seriously, you're better off with a straight cleric. Condition removal on demand, i.e. right now, and you can change from summoner to debuffer to buffer to blaster every day as you like.
==Aelryinth
1rst: Doom, Murderous Command, Ray of Sickening,Summon Monster I
2nd: Disfiguring Touch, Hold Person, Silence(on an object given to melee), Summon Monster II
3rd: Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Contagion, Stone Shape, Summon Monster III, Vision of Hell
4th: Aura of Doom, Fleshworm Infestation, Dismissal (Situational), Planar Ally Lesser, Spiritual Ally,Summon Monster IV, Terrible Remorse, Wall of Blindness Deafness
5th: Command greater, Curse major, Forbid Action greater, Plane shift (Squee), Summon Monster V, Wall of Stone
6th: Banishment (Sitational), Blade Barrier (If allowed overlap), Epidemic, Harm, Plague Storm, Planar Ally, Summon Monster VI
The above are just what jumps out on a first pass through the PRD for offensive spells.
Now spells such as Divination, Augury, and Commune are vital, but utility spells are a whole different bag.
You will also want to pick your domains carefully as a caster cleric, allowing for access to desired spells, perhaps take an archetype that enhances casting as well
If you have access to the Inner Sea Gods hardcover, they're in there, page 261.
You don't need a dedicated healer (although yes, you absolutely need some way to deal with status conditions) but what you do need is both a dedicated battlefield control and support person. Right now, everyone in your party appears to be focused only on dealing damage, except the sorcerer who is trying to deal with 2 jobs, this means your battles will likely be fast, furious and focus purely on hit point attrition for both sides, with very little tactical advantages for your team.
This is viable, but you will burn a lot of charges on your healing wands.
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Cleric's can leave open slots, they have to pray for an hour at their time for the slots, but they can pray later for the spells anytime they want
I also find having a dedicated healer pretty helpful. If no one really wants to play one ask the DM if someone can take leadership for a healbot.
I think a cleric would give you enough healing and versatility, especially if you take selective channeling. Burn another feat on scribe scroll if you don't want to walk around with a restoration or deathward on demand, if another PC already has scribe scroll you can just use their feat to craft divine scrolls.
Oracles are fun but they play very differently depending on the archetypes, mysteries and curses involved.
You can get very strong caster options but you need to focus on something like fire or illusion and go all in on it.
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@OP: If you just want a non-bruiser divine caster, here's a highly effective one character point Evangelist Cleric that totally kicks @&&. That approach gets enough healing, all the status removal you want, a bodyguard/martial combatant, full spellcasting, the best buffs in the game, and specialized summoning.
Starting with that base, what do you want to do with the other 14 character points? Put it all in Wisdom and you are an offensive caster. Put it in STR, DEX, and CON and you are a bruiser. Perhaps Boost CON for better survival chance. Do get your WISDOM to 16-17, so you can cast Heal at 11th level.
This approach is not the best healer, as you know. From what you say, though, this approach should provide enough healing, and has lots of damage mitigation ability (e.g. summons & bardsong). Damage mitigation works much better if your team works with you, rather than 'bellow and charge' at first sight of the foe. Even the 'bellow and charge' set likes bardsong, though.
Your single most important tool for success with this sort of Cleric is to leave open spell lots. Leave at least one open spell slot at each level. This gives you access to every spell on the Divine spell list with 15 minute notice. You no longer need a big pile of wands and scrolls, as you have quick access to your entire spell list. In the event you cast your most powerful in-combat healing spell you prepare another, from an open slot, for the next fight. Leaving open spell slots largely cancels inability to spontaneously convert cure spells.
You could trade away Bardsong for slightly better healing ability, but it's probably not worth it. Normal cleric gets 5D6 channels at 10th level, while an Evangelist gets on 3D6. You don't need to bump mental stats, so you are free to wear an Phylactery of Positive Channeling for +2D6 channeling.