Vermin Familiars, Intelligence and Feats / Skills


Rules Questions


I have selected a Greensting Scorpion as my familiar for my Wizard.

The creature changes to a Magical Beast, losing the mindless trait of a Vermin creature. It gains Int 6.

Does my familiar now qualify for a single feat for having 1 HD and a single skill point as per the rules for a Magical Beast?


Yes.

This is from the Vermin Companion section of UM:

Ultimate Magic wrote:
Mindless: Vermin companions have no Intelligence score and possess the mindless trait. In spite of this, vermin companions may learn one trick, plus additional bonus tricks as noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. If a vermin animal companion gains an ability score increase (at 4 Hit Dice, 8 Hit Dice, and so on), the druid can apply this increase to the companion's Intelligence, changing it from — to 1, at which point the companion loses the mindless quality and is able to know up to 3 tricks per point of Intelligence, plus the additional bonus tricks, as per Handle Animal. Vermin companions have no skill points or feats as long as they have the mindless quality.


Thank you for your reply Nawtyit, but your response quotes rules for Animal Companions. My question relates to Familiars, which use a very different set of rules. In fact the rules explicitly exclude Animal Companions being the same as Familiars.

The rules for Familiars state the following:

Familiars wrote:
A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar.

However this is in conflict with the rules for permanent increases to Intelligence:

Intelligence(Int) wrote:
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

A Greensting Scorpion loses the Mindless trait when becoming a familiar:

Greensting Scorpion wrote:
A greensting scorpion familiar grants a +4 bonus on Initiative checks so long as the familiar is within 1 mile of the spellcaster. A greensting scorpion familiar loses the mindless trait and has an Intelligence score appropriate for its master's level.

So does this also mean it loses the lack of skills and feats for its natural hit dice?

Intelligence(Int) wrote:
Vermin do not have an Intelligence score, and as such they have immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms). Mindless creatures have no feats or skills. A vermin-like creature with an Intelligence score is usually either an animal or a magical beast, depending on its other abilities.

The rules here are really unclear, with the Familiar rules saying one thing and the Ability rules saying another.

Scarab Sages

JDLPF wrote:

I have selected a Greensting Scorpion as my familiar for my Wizard.

The creature changes to a Magical Beast, losing the mindless trait of a Vermin creature. It gains Int 6.

Does my familiar now qualify for a single feat for having 1 HD and a single skill point as per the rules for a Magical Beast?

No, familiar's have their own rules for skill points. They obtain feats only if the familiar (or familiar archetype) rules grant one. They do retain racial feats (if any) and racial bonuses to skills.


Is this an explicit exclusion to the written rules for permanent Intelligence increases granting retroactive skill points?

Scarab Sages

JDLPF wrote:
Is this an explicit exclusion to the written rules for permanent Intelligence increases granting retroactive skill points?

Yes. Familiars use the skills of their master.

Here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/wizard.html#wizard

In summary, familiar is a basic version of it's type. It doesn't improved beyond that. The familiar doesn't collect experience or grow stronger, rather the wizard gets stronger and that imparts better abilities to the familiar.

HD is only used for abilities that affect a certain HD number. HP is half that of the wizard, regardless of HD. Familiar's CON doesn't play in here.

Skills use base animal, or wizard. Unlike animal companions, they don't improve skill points per level. They do have a few class skills, and will recieve the bonus for a trained class skill if they get ranks in the skill via the wizard. This means that a high INT wizard/master will have a more skilled familiar.

You do still use your attributes for bonuses to the skills. So a high dex tiny familiar may have a much more impressive stealth skill than a low dex wizard, even if the wizard has the same number of ranks in stealth.

There are a list of abilities gained per level, as well as increases to INT. My understanding of the INT increases is that they get smarter for role playing purposes, allowing more complicated tasks/requests. In theory, the wizard class is INT based, so a 11th level wizard having an INT 11 pet isn't really very impressing. It does allow the familiar to have better bonuses to INT based skills.

As I understand it, if the wizard were to die or abandon the familiar, it would lose all bonuses gained and revert to a normal animal of it's type. This is unlike an animal companion, which is its own creature, getting stronger through training and experience.


How does this interact with other sources of intelligence bonuses not originating from the Familiar class feature?

For example, what would happen if my familiar wore a headband of Intelligence +2? Would it then qualify for a first HD feat and a single skill rank?

Scarab Sages

JDLPF wrote:

How does this interact with other sources of intelligence bonuses not originating from the Familiar class feature?

For example, what would happen if my familiar wore a headband of Intelligence +2? Would it then qualify for a first HD feat and a single skill rank?

Look, the familiar doesn't gain skill ranks at all. It uses the wizards ranks. If the familiar equips items to boost their attributes, they improve the attribute linked skills, and increase saves, AC+Initiative (dex) and that's it. Lowering any attribute to zero would kill/knock out as normal, as it would affect carry weights and so forth.

Best way to think of it as the wizard a fraction of their power into the familiar. The familiar doesn't level up, or gain HD. The familiar is considered HD equal to the wizard only for effects, they don't gain.

In all honesty, I think the INT increases to the familiar only make sense on INT based caster's familiars. It would be very reasonable to houserule cleric/druid familiars gaining WIS instead of INT, and sorcerer/oracle familiars gaining CHA instead of INT.


As far as I know, the only way to get a familiar to have its own skill ranks is through taking the Sage archetype, found in the Familiar Folio. It does limit the familiar to 2 ranks / level though, which is likely to be a hindrance depending on your personal Intelligence modifier.

As for feats, some archetypes lets familiars share feats with their masters, but I don't think there's any way to directly give them feats by themselves - save for some Witch archetype, iirc.


My point is that the creature itself is a mindless creature to start with, meaning the base creature is denied a feat and skill point for its first hit dice due to a lack of an intelligence score.

A vermin creature that gains an intelligence score becomes a magical beast or animal by the rules. This is duplicated by the Familiar rules.

A vermin creature that gains an intelligence score would also gain a single feat and skill point for having one hit dice. This is where the rules for familiars differ from the rules for advancing creatures.

My question is what happens when a vermin creature puts on a Headband of Intelligence when it's a familiar? It's gaining an intelligence bonus that is separate to the Familiar class feature for my character, and by RAW should gain a feat and skill point if it wasn't a familiar. Is this prevented because it's already a familiar? What about if it has the intelligence bonus added before it's bound as a familiar?


It doesn't gain a feat.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

JDLPF wrote:
My question is what happens when a vermin creature puts on a Headband of Intelligence when it's a familiar? It's gaining an intelligence bonus that is separate to the Familiar class feature for my character, and by RAW should gain a feat and skill point if it wasn't a familiar. Is this prevented because it's already a familiar? What about if it has the intelligence bonus added before it's bound as a familiar?

Well, wearing a headband of intellect doesn't give you skill points in PF anyway - it gives you ranks in one skill = to HD. I could see the familiar gaining that from wearing the headband, just like anything else.

You can't add an Int bonus to a mindless creature, so before it's a familiar the headband does nothing.

While theoretically a vermin would gain a feat slot when it loses mindless, a familiar has no way to fill that slot - it can't choose any feat that isn't in the base creature description.

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