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Has anyone tried the Eldritch Guardian archetype out of the new Familiar book? What are your thoughts on it? I was excited when I heard about it. I mean, what could be more awesome than a Fighter with access to a familiar, right? But when I finally read it I was disappointed. Basically you burn your first two Bonus Feats for a Familiar that doesn't do anything... unless you have Bonus Feats. The other perks of having a Familiar seem negligible for a Fighter who's crippled out of the gate. Is there something about the Eldritch Guardian that I'm just not seeing?
....? I think we are reading this differently.
it can use any combat feat possessed by the eldritch guardian
It doesn't say bonus feats, just 'combat feats'. Which comprise a very, very large portion of all feats. It looks like you could use any combat feat you have, even if it was taken through your level feats, or if you get them from other classes. So while your pickings are slim at first, you cans till get 3 running by level 3, if you wanted to.
Anyway...why? Well, for one, you can take complete and utter advantage of teamwork feats. A lot of those are combat feats. Even if you just get a small little flank buddy (A bit of a waste; I would go with an earth elemental armed with simple weapons an 0 ACP armor myself), then they can do a massive boost for you. And from the looks of it, you might be able to take advantage of coordinated charge to get a pseudo pounce going on (charge as an immediate action with teammate charges; movement outside of your turn and leaves you next to the target, ready to full attack)
Also, the new disheartening display feat from ACG looks amazing. It takes dazzling display, and remove the limits on it. You can just stack and stack up feat effects. With two of you doing it, you can have all enemies in a 30' radius frightened and running before they even get a chance to move.
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Well..
Familiars share your BaB, your saves, and half your HP. Take the feat, improved familiar, and now you have a familiar with weapons. Then:
Go crazy on any teamwork feat intensive build you want. For example:
Eldritch Guarding 10
1 Weapon Finesse
3 Exotic Weapon Prof: Elven Curve Blade
4 Improved Familiar (A Lyrakien Azata would do)
5 Combat Reflexes
6 Improved Critical: Elven Curve Blade
7 Sieze the Moment
8 Paired Opportunists
9 Pack Flanking (Use with a ring of tactical precision)
10 Outflank
It's not your bonus feats you share, it's all of your combat feats.
With this build, you automatically get a +4 bonus on attack rolls (for flanking), plus whenever you critically hit, you and your familiar get 2 attacks of opportunity a piece (outflank, Sieze the Moment), which have an extra +4 chance to hit, and can then critically hit for even more AoO's...
There's lots of directions you can take this.
EDITED a small bit for clarity
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I know it's not just Bonus Feats. I worded that improperly. I was expression my frustration with getting a Familiar that runs on Feats by sacrificing two of your Feats. I suppose at high levels you could make an interesting build, but all the games I play in always start at level 1. A Fighter who can't really do anything really Fighter-ly for those first few levels seems really un-fun.
If you're going to play an Eldritch Guardian out of the box at level 1, what Feat would you take to get the most bang for your buck until level 3?
Power Attack
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A Mauler is always assumesd for this build. It's contributing ability, Battle Form, comes online at lvl 3, and since the feats thing only came in at lvl 2, you essentially have to deal with being a lvl 1 fighter from lvl 1 to 2.
Which....has always been easy. Your a Figher. even without feats, hit the Kobold/Zombie/Wolf with your Greatsword and your 18 str. Hey look; enemy dead.
As you level up, your familiar (I found Fox to be the best w/o improved) gets higher Str then you. I then used the feats Evolved Familiar to give it Claws. (3 Natural Attacks with 22 Str; and it has your BAB so it's MORE accurate then you.) I also took Spirit Gift to give it either DR 5/ Adamantine, or Fast Healing 1. You can change Spirit Gift's benefit each day, so feel free to experiment.
Hell; if you were light weight enough, you could take Undersized mount, and ride your familiar into battle.
On a side note, I like to take a level of Tattooed Sorceror with this, so that I can get Tattoo form for my familiar, and some social skill. You could become a decent Spy, keeping your secret weapon; your familiar, hidden until you need him.
Done right, it makes the fighter probably one if, if not the best Paired Fighting class.
Human Eldritch Guardian with a monkey familiar (Mauler archetype)
1: Point Blank Shot
1: Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
4: Weapon Prof: Longbow (this lets the monkey have it since your class feature proficiency doesn't count as a feat)
5: Deadly Aim
6: Manyshot
Just build the archer like normal from there. Give the monkey a +1 adaptive longbow as soon as you can afford it. Congrats! Your monkey adds to your already impressive DPR. Just make sure to drop a quiver for him so he can fire medium-sized arrows instead of watching them shrink when he enlarges himself every combat. Make sure you fit in Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization at some point so he gets the static damage bonuses, as well.
Sure, you lose 2 feats. You gained 2 additional shots per round at level 4, though, and 4 at level 6 (the monkey has your BAB).
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I'm having a hard time NOT picking Eldritch Guardian for every fighter I ever make. It's just so good. Monkey is the #1 choice because it can reasonably wield weapons, meaning a feat like Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard) turns your monkey into an additional area of reach & possibly damage. You can also do other cool stuff, like giving your familiar extra natural attacks, or, if you're a Tengu (or some other race with natural weapons built in), you can focus on your natural weapons to further improve your companions, picking up stacking feats like Improved Natural Attack, and letting your Weapon Focus/Specialization feats stack for both of you, not to mention improved crit feats.
Oh, and did I mention that they get a better version of Bravery and Perception, Spellcraft, and UMD as class skills? That's a pretty big deal.
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I think it is a little unreasonable to complain about giving up two bonus feats to gain a familiar since two feats is what it costs to gain a familiar by other methods such as Skill Focus + Eldritch Heritage or Iron Will + Familiar Bond. Eldritch Heritage requires 13 Charisma and prevents you from taking a different Eldritch Heritage. The familiar from Familiar Bond lacks a lot of abilities and is incompatible with most familiar archetypes. The familiar from Eldritch Guardian seems like a pretty good deal really.
UMD is a great addition to your class skill list, and the fact you get a familiar with all your ranks in it is a big bonus. I think the Eldritch Guardian archetype is also compatible with the Mutation Warrior archetype. If so that means you'll have +4 Str and +2 natural armor practically all dungeon long. Later on you can grow wings if you'd like or even get an extra arm or tentacle to help out with holding items (bucklers/shield, wand, bow, etc)
With Boon Companion or just the right class choices you could multiclass a bit without watering down the familiar. Heck, you could take 4 levels of Cavalier along with the Horse Master feat and have a full power Mauler familiar along with a full power Mount from Cavalier. Alternately you could pick up enough caster levels to craft a bunch of magic items for you and your little buddy as well as sharing some spells.
Of course here comes Ravingdork talking about his Cock again...
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A Mauler is always assumesd for this build. It's contributing ability, Battle Form, comes online at lvl 3, and since the feats thing only came in at lvl 2, you essentially have to deal with being a lvl 1 fighter from lvl 1 to 2.
Which....has always been easy. Your a Figher. even without feats, hit the Kobold/Zombie/Wolf with your Greatsword and your 18 str. Hey look; enemy dead.
As you level up, your familiar (I found Fox to be the best w/o improved) gets higher Str then you. I then used the feats Evolved Familiar to give it Claws. (3 Natural Attacks with 22 Str; and it has your BAB so it's MORE accurate then you.) I also took Spirit Gift to give it either DR 5/ Adamantine, or Fast Healing 1. You can change Spirit Gift's benefit each day, so feel free to experiment.
Hell; if you were light weight enough, you could take Undersized mount, and ride your familiar into battle.
On a side note, I like to take a level of Tattooed Sorceror with this, so that I can get Tattoo form for my familiar, and some social skill. You could become a decent Spy, keeping your secret weapon; your familiar, hidden until you need him.
Done right, it makes the fighter probably one if, if not the best Paired Fighting class.
Oooo Spirit's Gift looks cool. Evolved familiar sounds good too but requires too high of an Int and Cha for my current Eldritch Guardian to benefit from though.
A Mauler is always assumesd for this build. It's contributing ability, Battle Form, comes online at lvl 3, and since the feats thing only came in at lvl 2, you essentially have to deal with being a lvl 1 fighter from lvl 1 to 2.
Which....has always been easy. Your a Figher. even without feats, hit the Kobold/Zombie/Wolf with your Greatsword and your 18 str. Hey look; enemy dead.
As you level up, your familiar (I found Fox to be the best w/o improved) gets higher Str then you. I then used the feats Evolved Familiar to give it Claws. (3 Natural Attacks with 22 Str; and it has your BAB so it's MORE accurate then you.) I also took Spirit Gift to give it either DR 5/ Adamantine, or Fast Healing 1. You can change Spirit Gift's benefit each day, so feel free to experiment.
Hell; if you were light weight enough, you could take Undersized mount, and ride your familiar into battle.
On a side note, I like to take a level of Tattooed Sorceror with this, so that I can get Tattoo form for my familiar, and some social skill. You could become a decent Spy, keeping your secret weapon; your familiar, hidden until you need him.
Done right, it makes the fighter probably one if, if not the best Paired Fighting class.
Isaac, out of curiosity, at which level are you looking at the 22 Strength for the fox? By my figuring... Fox won't hit 22 Strength until 15th level. Base of 9 + 2 Battle From + 4 Size Increase = 15... you then need another +7 bonus gained from Increased Strength which you won't reach until 15th level.
If going the teamwork feats route, you can pick up Coordinated Charge at level 10 allowing you to have a ghetto pounce by letting your familiar always charge first.
The Bravery replacement isn't a good enough reason? The familiar is icing on the cake.
If going the teamwork feats route, you can pick up Coordinated Charge at level 10 allowing you to have a ghetto pounce by letting your familiar always charge first.
It is kind of better than pounce when things work out, since you also get an extra attack in with the charge.
Might be a bit funky at the start of a fight, since you have to synch up initiative though (typically, one of you have to choose to delay so that you act together in the right order).
But hey, spend the first turn hanging back while getting buffed/avoiding caster explosions and taking advantage of dazzling display/disheartening display. So not the worst thing in the world, since you still have options.
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There is almost no reason, not to go eldritch guardian, you actually get a combat familiar, who gets all combat feats...I mean...seriously and if you have a spellcaster in your party, well buffer, as soon as he cast buffs on you, your familiar with the share spell feature, will get the buffs for free too.
Because I want a War Goat to ride forth on...
How does the Familiar not get mulched?
There is almost no reason, not to go eldritch guardian, you actually get a combat familiar, who gets all combat feats...I mean...seriously and if you have a spellcaster in your party, well buffer, as soon as he cast buffs on you, your familiar with the s1hare spell feature, will get the buffs for free too.
I am pretty sure that is not how share spell works. It just lets you cast spells which only target 'you' to target your familiar instead (as a touch spell). It also ignores problems of type (so you can cast enlarge person on it if you want).
Familiars and ACs always act on the player's initiative as far as I know (same as summoned monsters).
Not a set rule as far as I am aware, but a common way that it is played for convenience's sake.
Heck, Ultimate Campaign had a long section detailing the advantages or disadvantages of having the player control various pet type options, and having the GM control them.
How does the Familiar not get mulched?
Depends on what you are working with, but the common method is to grab light armor (preferably with 0 ACP so there are no proficiency issues) and just letting the scaling bonuses to natural armor take care of the rest. Some familiars, like small earth elementals, have an enviable amount of AC due to their base natural armor.
The mauler archetype for familiars has a unique feat that you can sub in for one of the base familiar's feats. It gives +2 hp per effective hit dice, which puts it on par with a d8 class at least. So that can keep them from getting squished.
How does the Familiar not get mulched?
The familiar gets half your hitpoints. Fighters tend to have plenty of HP anyway, and will just have even more reason to gain more in this archetype. Familiars have improved evasion, so aren't very affected by AoE attacks.
And the fighter is still threatening enough on his own, so it's not like a lot of creatures will think to attack the little animal doing small damage, while the big scary guy with the big scary weapon is wailing down on them.
BTW, if you don't want to go mauler, you could have a tiny reach wielding tiny monkey. The reach should allow it to threaten its 5 foot square to set up flanks.
How does the Familiar not get mulched?Depends on what you are working with, but the common method is to grab light armor (preferably with 0 ACP so there are no proficiency issues) and just letting the scaling bonuses to natural armor take care of the rest. Some familiars, like small earth elementals, have an enviable amount of AC due to their base natural armor.
The mauler archetype for familiars has a unique feat that you can sub in for one of the base familiar's feats. It gives +2 hp per effective hit dice, which puts it on par with a d8 class at least. So that can keep them from getting squished.
Thanks! This actually sounds workable.
There is also the figment archetype, which only gets 1/4 your HP, but the thing respawns after you had your beauty sleep. Not necessarily the best choice for a melee familiar, but it does have its value since it just can't die. (might also lose value compared to normal familiars since it disappears when you go to sleep; it cannot serve as watch).
There is also the figment archetype, which only gets 1/4 your HP, but the thing respawns after you had your beauty sleep. Not necessarily the best choice for a melee familiar, but it does have its value since it just can't die. (might also lose value compared to normal familiars since it disappears when you go to sleep; it cannot serve as watch).
Also neat!
Oh, and the mauler also DR 5/Magic at level 11. Not a sure proof defense (anything with DR/Magic or a magic weapon can get past it), but it can help reduce the damage some of the time.
The figment gets a 1-3 pts for eidolon evos as well. That can be used for improved natural armor. Or whatever seems useful at the time, since you can choose the evos every time you summon the little thing up.
Slightly saddened that the Mauler and Figment archetypes were one feature shy of being compatible.
The mauler archetype for familiars has a unique feat that you can sub in for one of the base familiar's feats. It gives +2 hp per effective hit dice, which puts it on par with a d8 class at least. So that can keep them from getting squished.
Actually, that feat, Mauler's Endurance, is supposed to be taken by the master.
The mauler archetype for familiars has a unique feat that you can sub in for one of the base familiar's feats. It gives +2 hp per effective hit dice, which puts it on par with a d8 class at least. So that can keep them from getting squished.Actually, that feat, Mauler's Endurance, is supposed to be taken by the master.
Whoops, really? I thought they were like the previous familiar feat ...things. Hmmm....a bit of an investment, but it seems like it is worth it to get a familiar that is up to melee level.
Familiars and ACs always act on the player's initiative as far as I know (same as summoned monsters).
That's a house rule.
Do note that the coordinated charge tactic doesn't care if the familiar goes first. It is only when the fighter goes first that he may want to delay his initiative until the familiar's initiative.
Oh well, easy to solve then. Just have the familiar riding on your shoulder.So how does a cavalier control his horse then? Does the other delay his initiative till it's both of their turns?Familiars and ACs always act on the player's initiative as far as I know (same as summoned monsters).That's a house rule.Mounts are explicitly noted to share initiative.
Familiars and animal companions (when not being ridden) are not.
*snirk*
I am going to take this seriously- can your familiar use coordinated charge if you are its mount?
Or does it need to get off your shoulder (which is dismounting, which needs a ride check if you want to do it as a free action- and that only applies if you are a small familiar; tiny ones still have to waste time dismounting)
What if my aasimar had wings? Does it need to dismount from its horse?
The rules are fickle when you start using body types that are not human.
Started playing a greatsword-wielding eldritch guardian in Rise of the Runelords with a fox familiar. His Int and Cha are too low for Evolved Familiar feat and I'm considering Spirit's Gift. However, would Vital Strike be a worthwhile feat investment now that it'll apply to the medium fox's single natural attack: 1d6 bite?
im waiting to see a build utilizing a grapple guardian with a weasel. the weasel's attach ability allows it to auto grapple if it hits, which feels like it has a lot of potential.
Also, your familiar gains your armor proficiency :)
Special: Fighters and paladins automatically have Heavy Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select itThat language is not used for martial weapon prof. though, sad day.
The distinction that proficiencies are not feats was done in a 3.5 rules clarification.
I see no such reason to think proficiencies are not feats in pathfinder.
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Also, your familiar gains your armor proficiency :)
Special: Fighters and paladins automatically have Heavy Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select itThat language is not used for martial weapon prof. though, sad day.The distinction that proficiencies are not feats was done in a 3.5 rules clarification.
I see no such reason to think proficiencies are not feats in pathfinder.
I see no reason why we should've ever treated them different. And in my home games, I don't. Though this is the first case I've seen where it might actually matter.