On a semi-related note, after introducing one of the players in the Way of the Wicked campaign I'm running starting tomorrow to the Familiar Folio she has decided to play a Bloodrager with a Mauler King Crab. It will wear leather armor with armor spikes and be called Anvil.
Truly this is the sort of thing the class was made for.
Even with a strength score of 18 at 3rd level is pretty impressive for a familiar. That's a higher strength score than most AnCs at that level and it will only get higher.
With the mauler archetype, it's all about Teamwork feats and a Menacing Amulet of Mighty fists. Get yourself Outflank and you're looking at +6 bonus to attack just from flanking, which is not bad at all! Now, if only the EG qualified for Pack Flanking, then you'd be down right sickening.
Even with a strength score of 18 at 3rd level is pretty impressive for a familiar. That's a higher strength score than most AnCs at that level and it will only get higher.
With the mauler archetype, it's all about Teamwork feats and a Menacing Amulet of Mighty fists. Get yourself Outflank and you're looking at +6 bonus to attack just from flanking, which is not bad at all! Now, if only the EG qualified for Pack Flanking, then you'd be down right sickening.
Depending on the familiar, do you even need a full on amulet? A set of bodywraps might suffice for a fox or goat, for example.
Depending on the familiar, do you even need a full on amulet? A set of bodywraps might suffice for a fox or goat, for example.Even with a strength score of 18 at 3rd level is pretty impressive for a familiar. That's a higher strength score than most AnCs at that level and it will only get higher.
With the mauler archetype, it's all about Teamwork feats and a Menacing Amulet of Mighty fists. Get yourself Outflank and you're looking at +6 bonus to attack just from flanking, which is not bad at all! Now, if only the EG qualified for Pack Flanking, then you'd be down right sickening.
Possibly. Just depends on your GM and how they handle the familiar magical item body slots. Necklace pretty much works for everyone without having to burn a feat for extra item slot, plus... For 1k more gold I'd just dish out and get the amulet, just my preference though.
Possibly. Just depends on your GM and how they handle the familiar magical item body slots. Necklace pretty much works for everyone without having to burn a feat for extra item slot, plus... For 1k more gold I'd just dish out and get the amulet, just my preference though.Depending on the familiar, do you even need a full on amulet? A set of bodywraps might suffice for a fox or goat, for example.Even with a strength score of 18 at 3rd level is pretty impressive for a familiar. That's a higher strength score than most AnCs at that level and it will only get higher.
With the mauler archetype, it's all about Teamwork feats and a Menacing Amulet of Mighty fists. Get yourself Outflank and you're looking at +6 bonus to attack just from flanking, which is not bad at all! Now, if only the EG qualified for Pack Flanking, then you'd be down right sickening.
Lets looks at item slot by body type chart...
hmm...quadrupeds do not have a body slot. In fact, body slot seems exclusive to biped (hands). Now, my velociraptor shall never know the joys of a monk's robe.
Admittedly, the extra item slot feat is not bad, since it is one of the weird feats I mentioned earlier- it switches out a familiar's default feat. So it is all about whether the free neckslot and cheaper enhancement is worth trading for either nimble moves or skill focus (perception), depending on familiar.
Also- if you have a medium sized fox- could you fake being a ranger?
And Mark Seifter would be wrong. Not only is there is nothing in the rules that support his interpretation whatsoever, but his clarification in this case actually creates more problems and gray areas.The fox is a tiny creature, and the size increases in the universal size chart for monsters has it gain 8 points of strength when it goes from Tiny to Small to Medium. Then, the Battle form gives it 2 Str. I was using a Human with Eye for Talent to give him +2 to Str at creation, and at lvl 3, the Mauler Familiar gains +1 to str
So, it's 9 (Base) + 8 (Size related, but not called a Size bonus) + 1 (Mauler's lvl) + 2 (Battle Form increase) + 2 (Eye for Talent) = 22
Mark Seifter clarified that Battle Form follows the polymorph rules so there isn't a benefit from small to medium.
So a fox would be:
9 base + 4 size + 1 mauler level + 2 battle form = 16. 18 with Eye for Talent.
I don't know if this helps or hurts the argument, but the Spriggan has a non-polymorph supernatural size alteration that has bonuses that vaguely resemble the stat changes from the monster advancements table, not the polymorph table.
The Spriggan is from Tome of Horrors Complete, a third party supplement. As denoted by the big "This product was created by a 3rd party publisher" tag on the top right of the page.
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I just had a player use this archetype in a new campaign at 11th level, and he was pretty entertaining.
He played a human retiarius-type character with a figment monkey familiar.
Was it optimized? Heck no.
Was it pretty funny having a fighter with an imaginary friend who could fling Poo at his enemies (Poo being the name he gave his returning dagger)? Heck yes.
The Spriggan is from Tome of Horrors Complete, a third party supplement. As denoted by the big "This product was created by a 3rd party publisher" tag on the top right of the page.
..and has a similar stat block in Bestiary 2, pg. 257.
Edit* altered previous link to more appropriate one.
Isaac, out of curiosity, at which level are you looking at the 22 Strength for the fox? By my figuring... Fox won't hit 22 Strength until 15th level. Base of 9 + 2 Battle From + 4 Size Increase = 15... you then need another +7 bonus gained from Increased Strength which you won't reach until 15th level.A Mauler is always assumesd for this build. It's contributing ability, Battle Form, comes online at lvl 3, and since the feats thing only came in at lvl 2, you essentially have to deal with being a lvl 1 fighter from lvl 1 to 2.
Which....has always been easy. Your a Figher. even without feats, hit the Kobold/Zombie/Wolf with your Greatsword and your 18 str. Hey look; enemy dead.
As you level up, your familiar (I found Fox to be the best w/o improved) gets higher Str then you. I then used the feats Evolved Familiar to give it Claws. (3 Natural Attacks with 22 Str; and it has your BAB so it's MORE accurate then you.) I also took Spirit Gift to give it either DR 5/ Adamantine, or Fast Healing 1. You can change Spirit Gift's benefit each day, so feel free to experiment.
Hell; if you were light weight enough, you could take Undersized mount, and ride your familiar into battle.
On a side note, I like to take a level of Tattooed Sorceror with this, so that I can get Tattoo form for my familiar, and some social skill. You could become a decent Spy, keeping your secret weapon; your familiar, hidden until you need him.
Done right, it makes the fighter probably one if, if not the best Paired Fighting class.
Just in case no one pointed this out for you...
The fox gets +4 str, -2 Dex, +0 Con for tiny to small transition, and then +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con for small to medium transition. Add in that +2 strength they get for free and the +1 at 3rd and every odd level thereafter, and it's 20 at 3rd. At 4, it has 4 HD and gets a +1 to any stat (I think?) and at 5th it gets another +1 strength. So 22 at level 5. (If they don't get the +1/4 HD, then...
This is again all about which chart you use- the monster advancement chart or the polymorph chart. Polymorph doesn't have a difference between small and medium. That is most likely why that one dev told us to use it.
You get a respectable 16 str at level 3 with the polymorph chart. More than decent for attacks and maneuvers, and it just grows from there.
Hit level 3 with my Human Eldrith Guardian with greatsword and Fox familiar in Rise of the Runelords AP.
Feats: Weapon Focus (greatsword), Power Attack, Spirit's Gift.
Fox: Skill Focus (perception), Power Attack.
Spirit's Gift (stone) has been a life saver for the fox, ignoring bunch of goblin attacks. GM and couple of the players were surprised with hearing DR 5/adamantine at level 3, but I explained that: it's only for the familiar (or potential animal companion); the familiar typically isn't combat capable, but my build is an exception; the familiar also only has a fraction of my hit points and REALLY expensive to replace. The GM was also chuckling to himself by the end that a good fireball roll or other magic could still leave the familiar in a smoky crater.
Gonna have to invest in a Raise Animal Companion scroll and maxing out UMD if I want any chance of a discount on getting the familiar back from the dead in much higher levels.
Is it a Mauler familiar? If so, you can grab toughness for yourself, and that feat that gives the mauler more HP (Mauler's endurance I think?) to survive those fireballs.
Definitely a mauler. Mauler's Endurance is slated for level 5. Toughness is in consideration depending how I roll for HP for next few levels (lucked out for levels 2 and 3 with good rolls thanks to GM's reroll and take the second result rule). Hard to fit in at times if I'm gonna get 2 teamwork feats before level 10 (which is for Coordinated Charge) and pick up the Weapon Focus/Specialization feats for the fighter. I know they probably aren't all that useful in the long run for an AP, but my only comparable advantage compared to a party of spellcasters is accuracy and damage so I want to keep that up if I can.
How would a Eldritch Guardian get Improved familiar?
hrm. dirty trick line is combat feats right? you double up on it and you can instil just a ton of pretty bad status effects on one guy comboing with your familiar.
i think?
And with dirty trick master, you can nausate in one round. That is the one that prevents standard actions...which you have to use to get rid of the dirty trick due to other feats- yes, you effectively stun locked them for 1d4 or so rounds (ie- maybe the entire fight a lot of the time).
The dirty trick tree is nice, but its action economy is based on the idea that the party would only have one character investing in it. Once you double that economy, it is easy to break things.
Admittedly, you are breaking things at around the level where the martial-caster disparity comes into full force. So... you are basically doing your own SoS build while your casters are spamming SoS spells.
By taking a one level dip into something that can grant a familiar?
They already get a familiar. They need so many levels of a arcane spellcasting class, which makes no sense for this archetype.
By taking a one level dip into something that can grant a familiar?They already get a familiar. They need so many levels of a arcane spellcasting class, which makes no sense for this archetype.
So....they don't take it? It'd be a subpar option for them anyway unless a wand-monkey was that important to them.
So....they don't take it? It'd be a subpar option for them anyway unless a wand-monkey was that important to them.By taking a one level dip into something that can grant a familiar?They already get a familiar. They need so many levels of a arcane spellcasting class, which makes no sense for this archetype.
Have a familiar with special abilities and regen/fast healing is subpar vs a more intelligent animal?
Hm... what would be intersting is finding a way to give them a full Animal Companion IN ADDITION to his familiar...
So....they don't take it? It'd be a subpar option for them anyway unless a wand-monkey was that important to them.By taking a one level dip into something that can grant a familiar?They already get a familiar. They need so many levels of a arcane spellcasting class, which makes no sense for this archetype.
I think earth elements have the right stats (16 str, a bunch of natural armor) that you can use them for a weapon buddy build (elementals can use weapons if they are humanoid shaped).
Basically, they have better starting str than the mauler monkey (have not checked higher levels, but I would imagine it takes a while to out do).
So....they don't take it? It'd be a subpar option for them anyway unless a wand-monkey was that important to them.By taking a one level dip into something that can grant a familiar?They already get a familiar. They need so many levels of a arcane spellcasting class, which makes no sense for this archetype.Have a familiar with special abilities and regen/fast healing is subpar vs a more intelligent animal?
Hm... what would be intersting is finding a way to give them a full Animal Companion IN ADDITION to his familiar...
Well: You can have an animal with bardic knowledge, one that shares your teamwork feats, one that ends up stronger than the strongest improve familiars - It really doesn't seem that worth it to me.
As to getting an animal companion: Nature Soul->Animal Ally->Boon Companion. 3 general feats (scattered to a few books admittedly) that will get you a fully leveled companion from a small list. A feat chain I genuinely am considering for a Roughrider build.Edit:
So....they don't take it? It'd be a subpar option for them anyway unless a wand-monkey was that important to them.By taking a one level dip into something that can grant a familiar?They already get a familiar. They need so many levels of a arcane spellcasting class, which makes no sense for this archetype.I think earth elements have the right stats (16 str, a bunch of natural armor) that you can use them for a weapon buddy build (elementals can use weapons if they are humanoid shaped).
Basically, they have better starting str than the mauler monkey (have not checked higher levels, but I would imagine it takes a while to out do).
Starts on 3. Goes from tiny to medium (+4) for battle form, with an extra +2. Strength increases at level 3 and every 2 thereafter.
Earth Elemental is available at 5th. Where a Mauler monkey enjoys 11 Strength. So admittedly, that is a large gap and I stand corrected. It's closed at level 15.My attempt at further contention though is: Is a weapon buddy the priority? A fox familiar starts on 9, so at 6 strength greater than our monkey, is stronger than the elemental when it comes in and will continue to be.
Edit:
So....they don't take it? It'd be a subpar option for them anyway unless a wand-monkey was that important to them.By taking a one level dip into something that can grant a familiar?They already get a familiar. They need so many levels of a arcane spellcasting class, which makes no sense for this archetype.I think earth elements have the right stats (16 str, a bunch of natural armor) that you can use them for a weapon buddy build (elementals can use weapons if they are humanoid shaped).
Basically, they have better starting str than the mauler monkey (have not checked higher levels, but I would imagine it takes a while to out do).
Starts on 3. Goes from tiny to medium (+4) for battle form, with an extra +2. Strength increases at level 3 and every 2 thereafter.
Earth Elemental is available at 5th. Where a Mauler monkey enjoys 11 Strength. So admittedly, that is a large gap and I stand corrected. It's closed at level 15.
My attempt at further contention though is: Is a weapon buddy the priority? A fox familiar starts on 9, so at 6 strength greater than our monkey, is stronger than the elemental when it comes in and will continue to be.
Yep. I also highly enjoy the fox...for its CMB. It gets nicer str fairly early, and it is medium as well. It is actually my go to.
But the elemental is a fairly good excuse to take exotic weapon- falcata since it also gets that feat, and thus you are buying for 2. Or how about a nice Fauchard for 18-20 (or 15-20 with improved crit) reach build. I can make a fairly good reach build that gets doubly annoying when there are two characters acting as 25' wide circles of pain.
And lets not forgets the stupid power of disheartening display. That uses dazzling display to get enemies running away in fear on round 1 since you removed the limits on how much you can ramp up fear, and you also doubled up your action economy. But unfortunately, it only works when you wield the weapon you have weapon focus in, and I feel much better with weapon focus (falcata) than I do with weapon focus (bite) (admittedly, yeah, I could do nice things with a bit... but fighters are just poor natural attackers usually since they often have to devote to one weapon).
There are advantages and disadvantages to weapon buddies. They are, at least, a valid option. We aren't talking about a feral child druid here.
Sidenote- yeah, monkey matches earth elemental at level 15, and can get stronger afterwards. Too bad I have never gotten that far myself in a game. I keep my build expectations to mid levels usually.
So....they don't take it? It'd be a subpar option for them anyway unless a wand-monkey was that important to them.By taking a one level dip into something that can grant a familiar?They already get a familiar. They need so many levels of a arcane spellcasting class, which makes no sense for this archetype.
Maybe for roleplaying? Maybe they thing a Pseudodragon would be the coolest thing ever?
How will you get a familiar 25ft reach given they cannot be enlarged (handily)?
But the elemental is a fairly good excuse to take exotic weapon- falcata since it also gets that feat, and thus you are buying for 2. Or how about a nice Fauchard for 18-20 (or 15-20 with improved crit) reach build. I can make a fairly good reach build that gets doubly annoying when there are two characters acting as 25' wide circles of pain.
Reach weapon+Lunge+Long Arm?
Only problem is that Lunge doesn't work with AoOs. Don't know how much of a problem that is though.
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Maybe for roleplaying? Maybe they thing a Pseudodragon would be the coolest thing ever?So....they don't take it? It'd be a subpar option for them anyway unless a wand-monkey was that important to them.By taking a one level dip into something that can grant a familiar?They already get a familiar. They need so many levels of a arcane spellcasting class, which makes no sense for this archetype.
Roleplaying? Pah. Aren't we all playing to make mechanically superior characters every time?
In all seriousness, a valid point (and actually what I'd wanted when I first saw the archetype).Stuff
All quite true. I had underestimated the value of disheartening display for such a build. Though if I may advocate: Eldritch Guardian 2/Bloodrager 4 with magical knack might alleviate the problem. Though you miss out on having a healthy glut of bonus combat feats, sadly.
How will you get a familiar 25ft reach given they cannot be enlarged (handily)?
But the elemental is a fairly good excuse to take exotic weapon- falcata since it also gets that feat, and thus you are buying for 2. Or how about a nice Fauchard for 18-20 (or 15-20 with improved crit) reach build. I can make a fairly good reach build that gets doubly annoying when there are two characters acting as 25' wide circles of pain.Reach weapon+Lunge+Long Arm?
Only problem is that Lunge doesn't work with AoOs. Don't know how much of a problem that is though.
You guys...honestly do not understand reach weapons, do you? Or maybe you thought I meant radius when I meant diameter (I did say that was how 'wide' the circle was- as in total)
10 feet to the left+10 feet to the right+your own 5 foot square in the center.
This is how wide across your reach is in diameter. You also threaten in front of you, but that doesn't change the diameter of the circle (just starts measuring it from another angle). This information is essential since one of the main jobs of a reach user is to punish anyone trying to get past you- ergo, you should think of yourself as an obstacle that is as wide across as the diameter of your reach
If I was looking at all the tricks, it would be 35' across for AoOs with long arm (5x2 sides), and you could full attack anything in a 55' wide circle with lunge and 5' step ([5+5]x2).
Unlike with normal attack builds, reach is all about an area game. How far can you get AoOs from, how far can you full attack from. Do you go large for the extra AoO area, but risk the fact that you can no longer get full attacks again adjacent enemies (small/medium reach users just need to take a 5' step back-large has to spend an actual move action)?
These are all considerations before you then go to look at how to best exploit your reach, both for offense and defense. I personally like reach+lunge+pushing assault, since it can allow me to kite an enemy around (since I just take a 5' step back, and then push them away 5'; thus, they end up 10' away and they are set up for more AoOs...and they can't EVER full attack you unless they have pounce or reach themselves, which means they get 1 attack and you get...lots). And of course, your reach during your own turn is fairly great to, so you can pull off a lot of full attacks.
On an eldritch guardian with a pair of fortuitous weapons...you can get a DISGUSTING amount of attacks if you can pull that kiting off. You can make TWFers jealous with the number of attacks...all while using a 2 handed weapon.
There are reasons why reach builds are considered some of the best melee builds. So if you are going the weapon buddy route... reach with a nice crit range to exploit all those attacks seems like as great an idea as any