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This is the logical build advice extention to this thread and I guess to some extent this thread. If you disagree about some items for a CMB focused character and whether they would help or not, please post in the first thread rather than here.
If you are curious about the build the basic concept can be found here.
The question is, if you are making a CMB focused character what items would you get to help with this?
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These are some magical things I'm collecting for my PFS lorewarden (trip/reposition focused):
Dueling enchantment (Pathfinder Society Field Guide, double luck bonus on trip equal to +)
Gauntlets of the skilled maneuver (Ultimate Equipment, +2 trip, untyped))
Gloves of dueling (ultimate equipment, +2 weapon training, +4 vs disarm)
Brown Thorny Ioun Stone (inner sea combat, +1/+2 competence to trip)
Ring of Serene Contortions (inner sea gods, 1/day true strike)
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (resonance power, +2 insight to CMB and CMD)
The Brown Thorny Ioun Stone and the Gauntlets of the skilled maneuver can be used for other combat maneuvers as well.
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Things that are currently on my list include:
Gauntlets of the skilled manuever: adds +2 CMB to one type of combat manuever. Grapple in your case. ultimate equipment 4,000 gp
Dusty rose prism ioun stone + slotted into a wayfinder: +2 insight bonus to your CMB/CMD. 5,000
Shirt of Immolation: 8,000 1d6+10 points of fire damage to the grappled enemy. 10 rounds/day.
Monk's Robe: 13,000 +5 Monk levels for AC, unarmed strike damage and +1 stunning fist/day
Gloves of Dueling: 15,000gp (replaces gauntlets of the skilled maneuver if they would add to CMB)
Anaconda's coils belt: provides a +2 competence bonus to grapple checks. Ultimate equipment 18,500
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Dan bong: +2 Bonus to Grapple (may need grabbing style to function properly, check with your GM for how they are running it)
Brawling Armor: +2 to hit and damage on unarmed strikes, and +2 to grapple.
Feats or class ability
Gain a familiar somehow for a +2 to grapple from a king crab.
Worship Falayna for +4 to grapple and CMD
Final Embrace for Grab, granting +4 to grapple checks as well as constrict.
Damanta: Thank you for your suggestions! Hopefully others find this as useful as I do. So dueling added to an Amulet of Mighty Fists then?
Good catch on the Thorny Ioun Stone. I have added that to my list now. It doesn't stack with Anaconda's Coils Belt but it will help with Trip attacks.
Imbicatus: Thank you for your post as well.
Hm... Dan Bong. I can't believe I have never seen those before. So there are weapons that add to grapple checks. I don't think I'll use it for this character but it is good to know they exist.
Brawling Armor I knew about but I do not believe there is a way for a Monk to use Brawling Armor. Unless you know some trick that I don't?
I also don't think I'll be getting a Familiar on this character so King Crab is out.
Falayna. Hm. I do not own the book. What is required to actually get this bonus?
What are the ways that a Human could gain Final Embrace? I would love to gain Grab but couldn't find a good way of gaining it.
Nicos: Thank you. I had that on my list but somehow it didn't make it to my post. It does raise an interesting question though. It gives a +1 bonus to attack roles. Other things give competence bonus to CMB. Do they stack? They are the same bonus, but one is adding to an attack role while the other is adding to CMB.
Lamontius: Ah, thank you!
It doesn't stack with Anaconda's Coils or Thorny Ioun Stone but it is a great stopgap solution for only 500gp! Still unsure if it stacks with the Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone as they both give competence bonuses but one gives it to "attack rolls" and the other gives it directly to CMB.
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Damanta: Thank you for your suggestions! Hopefully others find this as useful as I do. So dueling added to an Amulet of Mighty Fists then?
Good catch on the Thorny Ioun Stone. I have added that to my list now. It doesn't stack with Anaconda's Coils Belt but it will help with Trip attacks.
I missed the grapple stuff, no the Dueling won't help for that sadly.
Aura moderate transmutation CL 7th
Slot none; Price +1 bonus; Weight —
Description
A dueling weapon bears magical enhancements that makes it particularly effective at performing certain combat maneuvers. When a dueling weapon is used to perform a combat maneuver that utilizes the weapon only (see below), it grants a luck bonus equal to twice its enhancement bonus on the CMB check made to carry out the maneuver. The dueling weapon also grants this same luck bonus to the wielder’s CMD score against these types of combat maneuvers. These combat maneuvers include disarm and trip maneuvers, but not bull rush, grapple, or overrun maneuvers. If you’re using the additional combat maneuvers in the Advanced Player’s Guide, this also includes any dirty trick maneuvers that utilize the weapon, as well as reposition combat maneuvers, but not drag or steal combat maneuvers. Note that this luck bonus stacks with the weapon’s enhancement bonus, which in and of itself adds to CMB checks normally.
I bolded the relevant part.
Edit: fixing layout, apparantly I'm not allowed to put a link as the quote. Ah well.
Damanta: I hear ya. However, it doesn't seem so cut and dried to me anymore. There are weapons that can be used as part of a grapple check. See the Dan Bong for instance. I don't know if this is a change of direction for Paizo, or a specific exception to the rule. My only insight into that is that Ultimate Equipment (where the Dan Bong is from) was printed after Pathfinder Society Field Guide. *shrug* What do you think?
Damanta, I'm not sure I follow what you are saying.
Allow me to give an example: If you have a +1 Dueling Dan Bong what bonus would you say that it would give to a grapple Combat Maneuver?
I would say that it would give +4 (+2 luck bonus from double it's enhancement bonus and +2 untyped from the weapon description)
Are you saying that in PFS they would ignore the +2 bonus because the enchantment description says that you can't apply this bonus to a grapple? If so does that mean you think that using the weapon would give a +2 or a +3?
Consider the following text:
Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
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Imbicatus: Thank you for your post as well.
Hm... Dan Bong. I can't believe I have never seen those before. So there are weapons that add to grapple checks. I don't think I'll use it for this character but it is good to know they exist.
Brawling Armor I knew about but I do not believe there is a way for a Monk to use Brawling Armor. Unless you know some trick that I don't?
I also don't think I'll be getting a Familiar on this character so King Crab is out.
Falayna. Hm. I do not own the book. What is required to actually get this bonus?
What are the ways that a Human could gain Final Embrace? I would love to gain Grab but couldn't find a good way of gaining it.
Brawling Armor: As a a Maneuver Master, Flurry of maneuvers isn't restricted by armor. The only thing you lose for wearing armor is your AC bonus.
With the Familiar Foloio, you can gain a familiar via feats. You can also gain one via a dip in white haired witch, which is good for a few reasons. First, it gives you access to some spells. Second, if you take two levels, it's gives you constrict with the hair, which allows you to take final embrace. (the other method to qualify is the belt of anaconda's coils). Third, it gives you another appendage to grapple with.
To get the Falayna benefit, you need to take the celestial obedience feat and hit a training dummy for an hour per day. It's a very minor requirement for a very good benefit.
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Damanta, I'm not sure I follow what you are saying.
Allow me to give an example: If you have a +1 Dueling Dan Bong what bonus would you say that it would give to a grapple Combat Maneuver?
I would say that it would give +4 (+2 luck bonus from double it's enhancement bonus and +2 untyped from the weapon description)
Are you saying that in PFS they would ignore the +2 bonus because the enchantment description says that you can't apply this bonus to a grapple? If so does that mean you think that using the weapon would give a +2 or a +3?
Consider the following text:
Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
It would be +1 from the enhancement bonus, +2 luck from dueling, +2 from the box text for a total of +5 actually.
In PFS they would probably ignore the +2 luck yes because the enhancement states it doesn't work with grappling. Also some GM's might not give you the +1 enhancement.
The only way I know of for a human to pick up grab (without polymorphing/wildshaping) is to dip two levels of White-Haired Witch.
I was thinking I could use Racial Heritage to take Final Embrace but Serpentfolk are Monstrous Humanoids rather than Humanoids, so that is out.
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The belt of anacondas coils lets you take final embrace. The requirement of the feat is to be a naga, serpentfolk, or have constrict. The belt gives you constrict with the belt, and then the feat good gives you grab + constrict with unarmed strikes. You lose the feat if you lose the belt, but it's legal.
Mmm, yeah. I guess that works. I dislike having a prerequisite (PrC, feat, etc) being dependent upon an item, though. Its hard to NOT go for it though. +4 to grapple is too good to give up.
So after some debate in another thread I think an AoMF with the Dueling enhancement is back on the list. It wont help with grapple still (which seems silly to me) but it will help with Trip and Dirty Trick.
One thing I am having trouble deciding on is which item to use in which slot. I'm sure many a Monk player has had to decide on this before as well.
If I use an Amulet of Mighty Fists I cannot use an Amulet of Natural Armor.
If I use a Monk's Robes I can not use Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes.
If I use Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver I can't use Gloves of Dueling.
For some things the choice is easy, for others not so much. Gloves of Dueling seem better than Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver mostly because GoD applies to both Trip and Dirty Trick while GotSM only applies to a single Combat Maneuver. Also the GoD give extra damage in a normal attack. I will still probably buy the GotSM first and replace them later with the GoD when I can afford it due to the difference in price.
For others I'm not sure which item pulls higher priority. Opinions?
Bo Atlas: Wasn't planning on using those particular Combat Maneuvers. However, keeping one around for when I have the opponent all tied up and still want to break/disarm his weapon I suppose wouldn't be too bad.
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1: Amulet of Mighty Fists vs Amulet of Natural Armor. The Amulet of Mighty Fists is more attractive, as you will need it to bypass DR since you will not have access to pummeling style. You can get natural armor via barkskin potions or buying a wand.
2: Monk's Robes vs Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes. The Bodywraps are generally a trap, as once you get constrict you will be damaging more often than the three attacks the bodywraps allow. The Monks Robes will grant an always on boost to damage, AC, and stunning fist.
3: Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver vs Gloves of Dueling. If you have the weapon training, Gloves of Dueling. no contest. If you were going to not get gloves of dueling, I would get Deliquescent Gloves instead.
Thank you for the input, Imbicatus. That is pretty much where I was at on the decisions. Good to hear it echoed in someone else's opinion I trust, though.
Alright, so I found this in another thread: the Adhesive armor enhancement.
It doesn't have the same clause as Brawling armor enhancement does that says that it can only be applied to "light armor". So that makes it fair game for bracers of armor, does it not?
edit: Crap, it doesn't. Just caught the clause in bracers of armor about not being able to add flat gp bonuses. *sigh* ...nevermind.
I think it would work if you used the Anaconda Coils belt in conjunction with it as then you are using your unarmed strike to deliver the grapple combat maneuver, right?
Provided that IS how it works then it is making me rethink if I want to use armor despite the loss of Monkness. I have to go review what would be lost if I do so. +4 bonus for a +1 enhancement and a 7,000gp add on ability is pretty hard to turn down.
Hm. Does a Maneuver Master Monk lose Flurry of Maneuvers when he wears armor?
I mean I don't care if I lose the small armor bonus as my character doesn't have a stellar Wisdom score to begin with. He doesn't get the class based bump yet and as I am only planning on 2 levels of Maneuver Master he would never get it short of getting a Monk's Robe anyway. I also don't care about losing the movement speed as I would never get that either with only 2 levels. I think I would be further ahead just wearing some +1 Light Armor with Brawler and Adhesive on it. ...unless I lose Flurry of Maneuvers.
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If you used the belt of anaconda's coils to obtain Final Embrace, the grapple would be granted by grab from unarmed strike, and then would get the bonus from Adhesive.
One thing though, it doesn't specify the action to activate Adhesive is a free action, only the action to end the effect. I could see some GMs ruling that to a standard action activation, which makes it less useful.
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Hm. Does a Maneuver Master Monk lose Flurry of Maneuvers when he wears armor?
RAW, no. Flurry of Maneuvers replaces Flurry of Blows, and does not mention armor. The monk's armor proficiency section only limits flurry of blows.
That said, if a FAQ was ever issued on it, I'm 95% sure it would be on the side of no flurry of maneuvers in armor, as the only reason the Sohei got the pass was they are proficient in light armor.
Check with your GM, and expect table variation in PFS.
Check with your GM, and expect table variation in PFS.
I loath that answer. I know it is the best I will get but I hate having to deal with table variation. In home games it is a non-issue. I can just ask the GM and then adjust my character accordingly. Can't do that in PFS.
Anyway, your answer is what I expected. I guess worse case scenario if they did make the rule change they would probably let me sell the armor at full value or some such thing.
So, yeah... I am thinking +1 Light Armor with Brawler and Adhesive is going to be choice for this build.
I know this isn't a rules thread but since I didn't get any answers over there I thought I would pose the question here:
1. A Maneuver Master Monk doesn't lose Flurry of Maneuvers when wearing armor.
2. If I don't care if I lose movement speed and AC bonuses (mostly because I am only dipping MMM for 2 levels and have a 12 Wis) then there is no reason to not wear armor.
3. If I had Anaconda Coils belt and +1 Light Armor with Brawler and Adhesive enhancements I could gain the Constrict ability.
4. If I have Constrict via Anaconda Coils belt I can take Final Embrace.
5. At that point I am delivering grapple Combat Maneuvers via my unarmed strikes. (it shouldn't matter whether these are initial grapple attempts, grapple attempts to pin, or grapple attempts to maintain a grapple)
6. Then when I use an Amulet of Mighty Fists it will add it's enhancement bonus to grapples.
Does that look like it adds up? Would that allow me to add enhancement bonuses from AoMF to CMB for grapple checks?
If so, would the enhancement bonus to CMB stack with the enhancement bonus from the Adhesive armor enhancement? One says it adds enhancement bonus to attack roles, the other says it adds an enhancement bonus to grapple checks.
...but you get to add the bonus from AoMF to Trip attacks. Is that not because it was done by that part of the body? I fail to see how it is different especially when done with Grab, Grapple and Final Embrace. Grab even talks about the body parts being used.
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You add the bonus from AoMF to Trip attacks because Trip is a weapon-based maneuver, and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for that purpose.
...so because you are using your body to trip them it adds your AoMF bonus. But when you are using your body to grapple them, it doesn't. *shakes head* Yeap. That makes no sense. Especially when you consider the text in Grab.
I have read that Blog several times before. I feel that it is outdated (from 2011) and didn't consider grappling for an unarmed combatant. I think it desperately needs to be revisited as it just plain doesn't make sense why an unarmed strike can be used to trip but not grapple.
I would. It seems like it should add to it. And honestly, an additional +1 to a check that is already +28 is a proverbial drop in the bucket.
Anyway, I think it would be pretty similar to a Druid summoning a Dire Wolf and casting Greater Magic Fang on it. THAT actually works. It makes no sense that the same wouldn't work in your Froghemoth example.
Understand I'm not trying to argue with you. The ruling just makes no sense.