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So, had this come up with a player.
Take a sling stone for a Collosal Sling. Weighs about 4 lbs (under the 5lb per ammo piece limit). Does 4d6 damage.
As written, there's nothing in the spell limiting it to 'weapons of your size' or 'weapons you could fire', so it basically telekinetically fires the ammunition as if it had fired from an appropriate weapon.
I'm wondering if I missed something doing research, doesn't seem to have come up.
So, instant 80' increment telekinetic cannon-balls?
So, had this come up with a player.
Take a sling stone for a Collosal Sling. Weighs about 4 lbs (under the 5lb per ammo piece limit). Does 4d6 damage.
As written, there's nothing in the spell limiting it to 'weapons of your size' or 'weapons you could fire', so it basically telekinetically fires the ammunition as if it had fired from an appropriate weapon.
I'm wondering if I missed something doing research, doesn't seem to have come up.
So, instant 80' increment telekinetic cannon-balls?
I don't think that could be fired from a "Halfling Sling Staff". So it wouldn't be a "Sling stone" it would be a rock. You would have to use the part under "as if you had thrown the item" part of the spell (including the -4 for using an improvised weapon). You would have to look at improvised throwing weapon for the damage.
Except, per the rules, any weapon can be created in any size (from diminuitive to collosal).
For example, a halfling sling staff could absolutely be build say, as a medium sized weapon (if you look, they show the damage for medium), even though halflings aren't medium. Why? Because medium sized people can use it.
As I said, for actually throwing things, yes. For ammunition, it specifically calls out as if fired from an appropriate weapon.
However, just to not be pedantic, change collosal bullet to collosal arrow, still under the 5 lb limit, still 4d6 damage, fired as if from a (collosal) composite +2 str longbow.
That is how the spell works. While it might not exactly be within the spirit of the spell, I don't think it'll be particularly game breaking either. Feel free to house rule it if you like though.
I will if it ends up being broken, I just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed an FAQ or dev comment or obscure rule reference or something.
There would be the penalty to hit for using mis-sized weapons at the very least, as it is thrown 'as if you had thrown the item'. Which also means that you can't throw anything more than 2 sizes larger than you even by a generous interpretation of the rules. (assume sling is light>1 handed>2 handed>unusable).
There would be the penalty to hit for using mis-sized weapons at the very least, as it is thrown 'as if you had thrown the item'. Which also means that you can't throw anything more than 2 sizes larger than you even by a generous interpretation of the rules.
The ranged attack is made as if you had thrown the item , in which case the attack is made as if fired from a heavy crossbow (if a bolt), a halfling sling staff (if a sling bullet), a blowgun (if a blowgun dart), a composite longbow with a +2 Strength rating (if an arrow), an atlatl (if an atlatl dart), or a pistol (if a firearm bullet). A firearm pellet launched by the spell functions as a shuriken.
Precisely.
Except, per the rules, any weapon can be created in any size (from diminuitive to collosal).
For example, a halfling sling staff could absolutely be build say, as a medium sized weapon (if you look, they show the damage for medium), even though halflings aren't medium. Why? Because medium sized people can use it.
As I said, for actually throwing things, yes. For ammunition, it specifically calls out as if fired from an appropriate weapon.
However, just to not be pedantic, change collosal bullet to collosal arrow, still under the 5 lb limit, still 4d6 damage, fired as if from a (collosal) composite +2 str longbow.
I may go so far as to say "sized for the caster" so if you were large, then sure, it would be like firing a large bow, etc. But it starts to get into cheese (ignoring RAI for RAW loopholes) territory to do otherwise.
Player1: "Mr. Halfling, why are you carrying around 10 Colossal sized arrows?" (probably a good 10-15 feet long each)
Mr. Halfing: "Oh, it's for a 2nd level spell I picked up yesterday." *does jazz hands and yells "Smoke bomb!"*
There would be the penalty to hit for using mis-sized weapons at the very least, as it is thrown 'as if you had thrown the item'. Which also means that you can't throw anything more than 2 sizes larger than you even by a generous interpretation of the rules.
The ranged attack is made as if you had thrown the item , in which case the attack is made as if fired from a heavy crossbow (if a bolt), a halfling sling staff (if a sling bullet), a blowgun (if a blowgun dart), a composite longbow with a +2 Strength rating (if an arrow), an atlatl (if an atlatl dart), or a pistol (if a firearm bullet). A firearm pellet launched by the spell functions as a shuriken.
I think he is trying to say that it says "the attack is made as if fired from a..." and a Medium sized character can't fire a Colossal sized long composite bow, so he shouldn't be able to use the spell to do so either.
Except that the spell doesn't say that. It even calls out you do not need to be proficient with the weapon. So...
What he's saying is, house rule it.
Which is not really a rule answer, it's a 'meh, I don't like it, but rules wise nothing supports nerfing it, so nerf it anyway'.
Note that it doesn't say 'as if you fired it from a <weapon>'. It says 'as if fired from a weapon'. Poor wording choice by the original creator. Not that that's a slam at them, they're busy, and human. Just saying that, strict raw as written, I can't find anything that stops the spell from firing collosal arrows by a diminuitive fey sorcerer (save the carrying of the raw weight of the ammo of course).
The rules are supposed to be read with a modicum of common sense. There is absolutely no way that it is going to go from 'as if you had thrown it' to 'go wild, all bets are off'.
Uhm, but it does by the way it's written.
If the spell had wanted to conflate the two, it would have stated something like this :
The ranged attack is made as if you had fired the ammunition from an appropriate weapon or, for non-ammunition, thrown it. Appropriate weapons are a heavy crossbow (if a bolt), a halfling sling staff (if a sling bullet), a blowgun (if a blowgun dart), a composite longbow with a +2 Strength rating (if an arrow), an atlatl (if an atlatl dart), or a pistol (if a firearm bullet). A firearm pellet launched by the spell functions as a shuriken.
The above links the two together. The original writing doesn't, it breaks them into two different things.
You may bite any of the nuts in the bowl to eat them, unless you are choose one of the brazil nuts, which you will need to crack open before biting to avoid tooth damage.
The above statement has two related things, but it doesn't say you must crack open all nuts before eating. The unless holds out an exception to the previous sentence. The unless in the spell also shows an exception to the previous sentence, not a clarification of it.
Also, it doesn't strike me as particularly cheesy either. If you have the ability to launch ten foot spears with deadly force you would carry around ten foot spears too.
Also, it doesn't strike me as particularly cheesy either. If you have the ability to launch ten foot spears with deadly force you would carry around ten foot spears too.
Regular medium sized longspear is 9 lbs. Over the weight limit.
Even a regular spear is over the limit.
Right, but a colossal arrow and a spear will look much the same.
Problem with this...
Targets up to one touched object per level weighing up to 5 lbs. each
A sling stone weighs 1/2 a pound. Weapon weight is doubled each time you go up a size category.
Medium 0.5 > Large 1 > Huge 2 > Gargantuan 4 > Colossal 8
Yes, it is 0.5 pounds per sling bullet. 10 bullets for a medium sized creature weigh 5 pounds. 5 / 10 = 0.5.
Your damage is still considerable, but not as high as previously stated.
Actually, I think I got Gargantuan and Colossal mixed up. :) 1d8->2d6->2d8->4d6, Gargantuan at 4 lbs.
Arrows on the other hand...
0.15 -> 0.3 -> 0.6 -> 1.2 -> 2.4 -> 4.8
Medium -> Large -> Huge -> Gargantuan -> Colossal -> Colossal+?
1d8 -> 2d6 -> 2d8 -> 4d6 -> 4d8 -> 8d6?
In that case you're good. Keep on keepin' on; looks good to me.
I think the devs might want to look at this spell, honestly. Sling bullets aren't too bad. Arrows on the other hand... wow...
I think the devs might want to look at this spell, honestly. Sling bullets aren't too bad. Arrows on the other hand... wow...
Yes, the devs really do need to work on not "allowing" crazy stuff to happen. I think it's absurd some of the things they force us to do...
I think the devs might want to look at this spell, honestly. Sling bullets aren't too bad. Arrows on the other hand... wow...Yes, the devs really do need to work on not "allowing" crazy stuff to happen. I think it's absurd some of the things they force us to do...
Gee, thanks. I had almost forgotten why I stopped posting on the boards for 2 years. I'd forgotten how high horsey some people get when their opinion is looked at, and then ignored for being advice, and not rules.
If you want to spout advice, answer advice questions. When you're ready to talk about rules (RAW, RAI), then I'd be happy to hear your thoughts. Until then, go soak your head, maybe your ego will shrink.
Again, RAI I think it was intended to only be 'medium sized weapons' or 'weapons sized for the caster'. RAW is, anything. Unless someone comes along with actual rules, instead of bile and vomit.
I think it reads exactly the way you think it reads, MDT. Carrying gigantic arrows around may seem weird, but hey: if you have the telekinetic power to lift them, you're going to use them, as Milo33 said. I can think of no reason to refuse you the ability to do that by rules.
...Though... Um. I think Bolts are even stronger than arrows for what you want.
Starting with a Medium Heavy Crossbow: 1d10 > 2d8 > 4d6 > 8d6? > ???
And it crits on 19-20 x2.
Spell looks like it could get pretty silly. Oh, and a medium bolt is 1/10 of a pound. That means a Colossal bolt is 16/10's of a pound. ...That doesn't make sense. 1.60 pounds? For a gigantic doom bolt?
Just saw another thread where they believe the damage scale goes like so for 1d10 weapons:
1d10 - 2d8 - 3d8 - 4d8 - 6d8 - 8d8 - 12d8
The bolded number is the damage of a colossal Bolt which weighs 1.6 pounds. It'd be 8d8 if it was a category larger and would weigh 3.2 pounds. (What.)
Meanwhile, starting from a 1d8:
1d8 - 2d6 - 3d6 - 4d6 - 6d6 - 8d6 - 12d6
Again, the bolded number is the damage of a colossal arrow.
Click here for the thread I found that talked about this.
I think you'd be better off with a firearm bullet. 6d6, x4 crit and should still be a touch attack as the attack is made as if fired from a pistol and pistol attacks are ranged touch attacks.
Yeah, that sounds best. Didn't think to consider guns.
I guess you could pack crossbow bolts for long distance and firearm bullets for general purpose?
Yeah, that sounds best. Didn't think to consider guns.
I guess you could pack crossbow bolts for long distance and firearm bullets for general purpose?
Yeah, the bolt wins out hands down if you need range plus the fact that it does slightly more damage works too. At close range, the firearm bullets just aren't going to miss on anything other than a 1. A mix of the two seems ideal.
Again, I'm not arguing the spell works like this because I want it to. I'm actually fairly aghast at how it's written (as the GM). Fortunately, the player isn't trying to go for the full swiss alps worth of cheese on it, just sling bullets. :)
Honestly i would keep it at are you carrying #ucking collosal arrows around what are is your character doing with that seriously. Role with a quiver full and stop trying to max ur sh#t. Start using wieght limit and then reason finish it off with if the player can do it so can the enemy.
What are you even trying to say?
So, this spell is a good candidate for a Potion, then Alchemical Allocation?
Also, what happens if you touch an item attended by someone else? I know attended items use their owner's saving throw or their own(in the case of magical items), but in this case, there is no saving throw to begin with.
Honestly i would keep it at are you carrying #ucking collosal arrows around what are is your character doing with that seriously. Role with a quiver full and stop trying to max ur sh#t. Start using wieght limit and then reason finish it off with if the player can do it so can the enemy.What are you even trying to say?
Seems like he's saying he doesn't have a cogent argument since what I can figure out makes little sense.
1 bolt = 1/10th lbs
1 bullet= 1/60th lbs
You multiply by 16 to get colossal weight.
1 bolt ends up 1.6 lbs, less than a single javelin.
1 bullet weighs .026 lbs, almost 1/4th the weight of a medium size bolt! So if you're letting people walk around with normal bolts, the can carry a 4x as much in colossal bullets...
At worst, you're lookin at a few pounds either way and since it's an expendable spell component, you can have the rest of the party carry some extra's to refill your supply when you run out.
Hrm, other unusual interactions: Reach Spell, and the Cartomancer. I am assuming you are only able to throw at one object in the case of the Cartomancer, but in the case of Reach Spell, are we now making a number of ranged touch attacks equal to our caster level versus any objects within range? Also, are they instantaneously transferring to your space?
Follow up question:
Is this really an uncapped caster level spell? I do not possess this book yet, have been going off of the link, and cannot find this feat on the PRD. I ask because it is relevant to the maximum range one could acquire when using Reach Spell, which seems like it now allows a most unusual way to take an object into your possession, without being next to said object, and picking it up physically. Like the Accio Summoning Charm from the Harry Potter series of books. Except you are calling a bunch of objects. Or maybe the fight in Return of the Jedi, if an example with multiple objects is needed for the mind's eye.
If the ranged attack is made as if I had thrown the item, and I possess the Startoss Style feat chain, what happens? What of any of the other applicable Ranged Weapon style feat chains?
*Edit*
What about feats such as Sliding Axe Throw and their ilk(feats allowing ranged options for melee weapons)
This is a very odd spell. I love the flavor, if only for my Deadly Dealer and other Harrow themed characters, but still, very odd, the way it is written. I am wondering if when they write things like this, if they have a working knowledge of any of the other game components their rules language opens the door to, as I get into this game. I only have four of the books so far and the recent martial-themed "splash" books (I'm a big X-Men fan, and have mainly bought books allowing me to play characters themed off of them. Ok, mainly Gambit, but I have played other X-Men themed characters), and haven't really delved that much into sites like the PRD or d20pfsrd, but even my brain jumps to relevant rules text that works with a rule I'm currently reading whenever I get to read new stuff.
Meh, if there's no clear ruling, I guess that is what rule zero is for, as explained by my GM. The more I get exposed to stuff like this, the more I see why that is a thing. Shame though, wish there was a way to avoid arguments when players from other groups play with us, over stuff like this.
Is this book in print in stores, or do you have to special order it from this site? None of the hobby shops had this, just Melee Tactics, and Weapon Masters, this book looks awesome!