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I suspect this is FAQ-worthy, just to clean up the text.
The Core Rulebook discusses the move actions used to retrieve items on pages 186-187 and provides two types:
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action. This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table 8–2.
There are some grey areas here:
1. Can I draw a potion as a free action while I'm moving?
2. Can I draw an alchemist fire as a free action while I'm moving?
3. Can I draw a metamagic rod as a free action while I'm moving?
4. Can I draw a scroll as a free action while I'm moving?
5. Can I draw a snapleaf as a free action while I'm moving?
.. etc ..
As written and played at a table, you could foresee how that if a player can argue that anything is "like a weapon", they could conceivably describe anything that they retrieve from their person to their hand as retrieving a "weapon-like object". The scroll? It's like a blowgun. The snapleaf? It's like a dart. A wand is mentioned, and in some ways a wand is less like a weapon than a potion.
Where does a character keep these items? Weapons are usually kept in some form of sheath. Ultimate Equipment provides a piece of gear to keep these items somewhere more convenient than a backpack (presumably).
This leather belt is worn over one shoulder and runs diagonally across the chest and back. It has small loops or pouches for holding eight objects the size of a flask or small dagger. You can use the "retrieve a stored item" action to take an item from a bandolier. You can wear up to two bandoliers at the same time (any more than this and they get in each other’s way and restrict your movement).
The "retrieve a stored item" action isn't present on table 8-2 in core, but it is mentioned under manipulate an item. Thus, if you consider a potion a weapon-like object, you hurt yourself by keeping it in a bandolier (as opposed to suggesting it's just nebulously floating on your character). This tends to players simply having items in an unspecified locale versus the folks who actually think out where and how things might be kept/stored on their person.
I'd suggest that all of this would lead to table variation on what can be drawn for a free action while moving and what couldn't. Thus, the potential need for inclusion in the FAQ.
I also dug back to "the source" and noticed that both of the actions from the Core Rulebook are verbatim from the 3.5e PHB. Additionally, 3.5e at it's tail-end did further clarify the action with the release of the Rules Compendium. While I know some percentage of players will generally fight tooth and nail against a clarification predating Pathfinder, I thought it was worth noting that if it needed clarification in 3.5e, it probably merits clarification in PF.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can combine this action with moving your speed. Drawing a weapon applies to any weaponlike item, such as a wand, rod, or staff, within easy reach. An item that is stored or out of easy reach must be retrieved as a stored item. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat,
you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it normally takes to draw one. Wands are light, and rods are one-handed.
In this case "weaponlike item" is further enumerated beyond the PHB to be "such as a wand, rod or staff". In my mind, this answers that you could draw a wand, rod or staff as a free action (in 3.5 and presumably Pathfinder as a derivative which maintained the exact same text in the base rule).
Perhaps a nice clear ruling in Pathfinder that enumerates what's "weaponlike" is in order? Is a potion weaponlike? A scroll? A tindertwig?
Begone gray... FAQ away.
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It is usually worn around the neck on a strap so it is within easy reach, but can be affixed to a belt or clothing just like a badge.
So a Snapleaf is pinned to your lapel or otherwise kept within reach, not stored in any pack or other container, and thus doesn't need to be retrieved. Forcing it to be retrieved defeats the "emergency" nature of the item in the first place.
I think that the intent of the PF and 3.5 rule is to acknowledge that non-martial characters walk around with stuff in their hands which are not specifically categorizes as weapons but are just as much the tools of their trade as a martial character's sword.
I don't think that there any potions, alchemical or otherwise, which could be construed as the primary tool of any character's trade. Alchemists have their own rules for bombs and elixirs, which are certainly the tools of their trade and do not set any precedence for other classes.
A player could argue otherwise. That player's argument, though, would not be a weapon-like object, as it would be weak and fragile and would not withstand reasonable refutation.
I don't think this needs a FAQ entry.
I agree with baradakas, this doesn't need an FAQ
@baradakas: Is am alchemist's fire or a tanglefoot bag weapon-like?
I'm trying hard to think of any way to see how anyone can say that a squidgy sack of goo can be in anyway similar to a sword. I mean I used to play soldiers as a kid and we'd pick up sticks and try to maim each other, so staffs, rods, wands I can get, but a big bag of goo...nah! same with fragile glass object.
Weapon-like=sharing some physical qualities with a weapon. simply being usable in combat doesn't make the grade.
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I think the intent of the rule is to provide better action economy when engaging in combat. Furthermore, alchemist's fires and other such items are listed as 'Alchemical Weapons' in Ultimate Equipment. An item listed as an 'Alchemical Weapon' is surely a 'weapon-like object' seeing as how it is a weapon.
In my table, they can only draw weapons as part of their move action.
To draw potions (and alchemy vials) they need a move, or swift action with a bandolier. As a result, everyone in the group has one or two bandoliers, which is fine by me.
To draw scrolls they need a move aswell, unless they have something else that allows drawing one quicker (like a magical scroll case).
Anything else that is ON their character will take a move action, anything that is inside their bag is either a standard or full-round aciton.
I would probably allow move-drawing a wand or rod if the situation rises, since thats how we ruled on 3.5 aswell.
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Well considering that drawing a huge sword from a sheath on your back, does not provoke an attack of opportunity and can pretty much always be done as a move action, realism left the building some time ago. So that argument really should not bother us too much.
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Then lets look at staffs, rods and wands. Staffs quite often can be used as quarterstaff, and in the cases where it is not case, the reason seems to be more fluff based than based on a mechanical advantage.
I have serious reservations regarding GMs asking for intent, and penalizing players based on that intent.
There should be no mechanical difference between a character drawing his +1 quarterstaff with the intent to hit someone (if only to get the benefit of combat expertise) and a character drawing a staff to obliterate her enemies with the power of the fire spirits.
The same should be true for rods (at the very least those that can be used as proper weapons, but then again there should be little appreciable difference, and retrieving it from something like your belt or a sheath should pose no problems.
Wands are specially called out in the original documentation, but compare quite well to daggers, and some of the blunt monk weapons.
Obviously since even using a wand does not provoke an attack of opportunity, I would argue that it is fair game.
I am not entirely happy, that we don't have and item like a wand bracer - and while the spring loaded wrist sheath currently serves to give easy access to usually no more than 2 wands, is uses a swift action, and seems so good and under priced to be almost mandatory.
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The quick draw feat is similar, but covers a different area, and no one actually asks to let characters draw things like potions as a free action.
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This really question really only applies to characters taking a move a action, and considering the number of move actions on page 183 of the CRB, in some cases there should be no added problem (remember that you can draw a weapon with any of these, if you have the BAB, that fact is not currently under discussion):
Move: Obviously I have a pretty high BAB, since have quite often retrieved my phone from my jacket or pants pocket without stopping moving. While you walk somewhere and have re required number of hands, why not, unless you have to interact with a container like a scroll case (with more than one scroll in it).
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I thin the really relevant part of the rules consists of:
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects [b] carried in easy reach, such as wands./b] If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
If a character e.g wears a bandolier or a bandoleer like the adventurers sash, with a loop tho secure their wands, I would call that sufficiently easy access. Of course this means that those items are also prime target for certain combat maneuvers, namely dirty trick, sunder and steal.
That seems like a fare exchange.Also I would like to add the following item to this discussion:
Efficient Quiver
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9thSlot —; Price 1,800 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about 20 arrows. It has three distinct portions, each with a nondimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible.The first and smallest one can contain up to 60 objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. The second slightly longer compartment holds up to 18 objects of the same general size and shape As a javelin. The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as 6 objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staffs, or the like). Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can quickly produce any item she wishes that is within the quiver, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard. The efficient quiver weighs the same no matter what's placed inside it.
Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Cost 900 gp
While it should not be required, this would deal with the argument of drawing something from a sheath. However, not unlike the gloves of storing, this item is also priced as an extra dimensional container.
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Regarding ammunition and shuriken, I just want to point out that I can flurry and throw a pretty high number of tangleshot shuriken per round ... so moving while drawing a proper tanglefoot bag and throwing it doesn't seem unreasonable.
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Move: Obviously I have a pretty high BAB, since have quite often retrieved my phone from my jacket or pants pocket without stopping moving. While you walk somewhere and have re required number of hands, why not, unless you have to interact with a container like a scroll case (with more than one scroll in it).Not that hard considering you were walking (which is a move action). That means you still had a standard action to do that during those 6 seconds.
If you double moved call it a hustle or a jog, it might have been more dificult and thus would have required a Bab of 1+.
I was rather assuming that I was using my standard action to mess with my phone. But yeah the example is difficult, because of the abstract nature of combat movement, initiative and action economy.
That said, I have done so while jogging, admittedly usually one the treadmill in the fitness studio I frequent. Of course I assume that my characters are a good deal tougher and better at a lot of things than me^^
if you have it strapped to your character in a similar fashion as a sword (like potions being in a bandonlier or strapped to your belt, probably), just at my table don't imagine you'll be able to put your whole list of items on your belt.
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I'm still feeling like this is FAQ-worthy, especially as I see a lot of people reference pulling a potion from a bandolier while moving which has extremely clear rules text. In addition, I see two sides to the question on accessing tanglefoot bags, alchemist fires, etc.
You can use the "retrieve a stored item" action to take an item from a bandolier.
The "retrieve a stored item" action is not the same as the "draw a weapon action". The "draw a weapon" action can be done while moving and doesn't provoke an AoO. The "retrieve a stored item" action cannot be done while moving and does provoke an AoO.
The game is an interesting balance of attempting to model realism, and not being anything remotely realistic, but I'm tempted to consider someone who has a dozen potions in a bandolier in real life and how quickly they could unstrap/unbuckle and bring one into hand. My guess is that it would take 3 seconds, with part of the action being remembering which spot of the 10 spots it's located in. And remember, we're talking about every NPC in Golarion and their access speed, since there's no trait/feat/etc in question here about a heroic adventurer's access speed - everyone in Golarion accesses potions from a bandolier at the same rate (well, they would based on the bandolier's description since it doesn't bring the +1 BAB rules into play).
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Also of note when having this discussion is the Quick Draw feat:
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
Quick Draw doesn't employ the term "weaponlike objects" at all.
The part in italics is new to Pathfinder from 3.5e as well, and specifically excludes wands, which in some ways is boggling. If drawing a wand was made out to be just like drawing a dagger everywhere else in the rules, it suddenly gets excluded with this feat. The fact this sentence exists and lumps together "alchemical items, potions, scrolls and wands" almost suggests those items should all be treated similarly in access speed. (Universally for all rules? Of course not, that would make the same too smooth/clean to run!)
Rods are not mentioned, but I'd likely allow someone to employ Quick Draw with a rod - in fact, outside of PFS I'd be tempted to liberally let Quick Draw apply to almost anything.
I'm still feeling like this is FAQ-worthy, especially as I see a lot of people reference pulling a potion from a bandolier while moving which has extremely clear rules text. In addition, I see two sides to the question on accessing tanglefoot bags, alchemist fires, etc.
You can use the "retrieve a stored item" action to take an item from a bandolier.The "retrieve a stored item" action is not the same as the "draw a weapon action". The "draw a weapon" action can be done while moving and doesn't provoke an AoO. The "retrieve a stored item" action cannot be done while moving and does provoke an AoO.
The game is an interesting balance of attempting to model realism, and not being anything remotely realistic, but I'm tempted to consider someone who has a dozen potions in a bandolier in real life and how quickly they could unstrap/unbuckle and bring one into hand. My guess is that it would take 3 seconds, with part of the action being remembering which spot of the 10 spots it's located in. And remember, we're talking about every NPC in Golarion and their access speed, since there's no trait/feat/etc in question here about a heroic adventurer's access speed - everyone in Golarion accesses potions from a bandolier at the same rate (well, they would based on the bandolier's description since it doesn't bring the +1 BAB rules into play).
I hope that if this gets FAQ'd, they'll review all the rules for different storage-and-retrieval items.
Like you point out here, the bandolier contradicts the general rule of "in easy reach": items in bandoliers are clearly in easy reach: that's why bandoliers exist. Drawing an item from a bandolier is clearly easier than retrieving and item from even a well-organized backpack, but they use the same action--which makes no sense.
Likewise, the sheath, wrist sheath, and spring-loaded wrist sheath text are confusing and contradictory, with the wrist sheath referring to the "drawing a hidden weapon" action but not considering the possibility of not caring whether your weapon is hidden--what action is it to draw then?
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if you have it strapped to your character in a similar fashion as a sword (like potions being in a bandonlier or strapped to your belt, probably), just at my table don't imagine you'll be able to put your whole list of items on your belt.
Well I feel this will inevitably fall in the same are as limiting free actions. Talk to your GM about a reasonable number of items. Just like there is no ruling about the maximum number of quivers you can carry at the same time... 57 might be a little bit much.
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The problem with wrist sheaths is that they are usually a fluff item used to hide a dagger of similar item. They really are not intended for combat (in the real world that is), the fact that so many pathfinders feel forced to run into adventure with a bit of clockwork at each arm is soo weird.
Oh and when I remember some of the older action movies, it wasn't uncommon to see a badass with a bandoleer filled with grenades.
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Also of note when having this discussion is the Quick Draw feat:
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
Quick Draw doesn't employ the term "weaponlike objects" at all.
The part in italics is new to Pathfinder from 3.5e as well, and specifically excludes wands, which in some ways is boggling. If drawing a wand was made out to be just like drawing a dagger everywhere else in the rules, it suddenly gets excluded with this feat. The fact this sentence exists and lumps together "alchemical items, potions, scrolls and wands" almost suggests those items should all be treated similarly in access speed. (Universally for all rules? Of course not, that would make the same too smooth/clean to run!)
Rods are not mentioned, but I'd likely allow someone to employ Quick Draw with a rod - in fact, outside of PFS I'd be tempted to liberally let Quick Draw apply to almost anything.
I noticed that recently, I was actually considering the feat for a character with a quickdraw shield, but it really does not work, it seems I have to continue to let those wands fall to the ground.
Arguing, that I can tether a wand with a weapon cord to my shield arm could work, but it is not quite RAW.
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I'm certainly starting to be highly flexible in how I ajudicate pulling out an item during a move action in my home games (largely because of 5e's influence in allowing anyone a single interaction during any move action being an awesome simplification of the game).
Another question along this same vein would be how to handle retrieving an item from a haversack.
I believe by-the-rules, pulling an item from a haversack is an isolated move action that cannot be taken as a free action while moving.
A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary.. While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains.
Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.
However, what if the item you are pulling out of the haversack is weapon-like? Would the "draw a weapon or weaponlike object within easy reach" rules kick in and override the magic item's text that says it's always a move action?
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I'm certainly starting to be highly flexible in how I ajudicate pulling out an item during a move action in my home games (largely because of 5e's influence in allowing anyone a single interaction during any move action being an awesome simplification of the game).
Another question along this same vein would be how to handle retrieving an item from a haversack.
I believe by-the-rules, pulling an item from a haversack is an isolated move action that cannot be taken as a free action while moving.
However, what if the item you are pulling out of the haversack is weapon-like? Would the "draw a weapon or weaponlike object within easy reach" rules kick in and override the magic item's text that says it's always a move action?A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary.. While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains.
Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.
To quote from your earlier post :
"If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item" an the item is clearly in a pack, so the retrieve item action has to be used. Which mit be a bit silly, especially since th efficient quiver allow you to draw it like you draw from a sheath.
At this point, I would only make commong sense limitation, and allow pretty much everything else.
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Asked a couple of people at my last PFS Game Day, and got a variety of answers. Some would not even allow the drawing of wands.
If guess for the time being those damned clockwork wrist sheath are still mandatory, if you want to reliably use a wand in combat (I am mostly concerned about healing players).
So yeah, really would like a FAQ on that one, though I will try to search published Paizo adventures for a chance to divine an some intent.
Asked a couple of people at my last PFS Game Day, and got a variety of answers. Some would not even allow the drawing of wands.
Wands are specifically allowed, by RAW. Unless players have the wand "stored away", they can certainly draw one while moving.
I just treat bandoliers as a poor-man's handy haversack: still a move action to retrieve from, but no AoO.
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Asked a couple of people at my last PFS Game Day, and got a variety of answers. Some would not even allow the drawing of wands.Wands are specifically allowed, by RAW. Unless players have the wand "stored away", they can certainly draw one while moving.
I agree, but even many quite resonable GMs will say no without you shoving that particular rule in their face ^^. I could make a good argument, that you should be able to retrieve other items combined with a move action, but a FAQ regarding retrieving items (or a blog post) would be quite useful.