So I just recently learned there were Psions in Pathfinder and had to look them up because I was such a fan of them in 3.0/3.5 D&D.
After some heavy reading, because I bought the Ultimate Psionics book to get fully versed in the stuff, I liked the utility of the Vitalist.
However, after learning how the group of 7 others in the Pathfinder group USUALLY play, I didn't want to be a Psion because then the GM might ban Psionics because no one has ever played them and would otherwise think the damage/mechanics I'm doing are broken. So I chose to go super utility with Vitalist.
Before I go and make a case of the class since they are not well informed on the Vitalist, I was curious if any of you have any tips for me about the class. I don't mean tell me all the Min/Max strats, because I'm playing him for fun, not to be the Best Healer Ever and all that.
I noted the Other Vitalist methods, and was intrigued by the Life Leech Vitalist Method, but after hearing how difficult it is to overcome Magic Resistance/Psionic Resistance with this particular GM if it would suit the party better if I just went Mender Vitalist because then I'm dealing with Willing participants the whole time and don't have to worry about Will saves and the like. (Unless someone has ideas on how to do this easier/more reliably)
I look forward to the discussions, thanks :-D.
With the Life Leech Vitalist, you get the Unwilling participant feat, which turns an unwilling opponent into a willing one.
It works basically like this: you have an open slot in your collective. You meat badguy #1, you inflict unwilling participant on him and he fails his saving throw (DC 10 + half manifester level
+ Wisdom modifier) and fails.
At that point, the badguy #1 is part of your collective and considered to be "willing for any an all effects that you apply over your collective). Note that he isn't mind controlled and every time you apply an effect, he can resist. Failing this save puts him in the willing category of any power or supernatural ability you can apply over your collective.
Since the Collective is a supernatural ability, there is no spell resistance that can apply at any point in the process (also because the unwilling participant feat is a psionic feat, which by definition is a supernatural ability). He only gets the saving throw against the unwilling participant feat DC, no more, no less.
I basically found out my DM doesn't do 3rd Party Content, so I've unfortunately scrapped the idea :-(...
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I basically found out my DM doesn't do 3rd Party Content, so I've unfortunately scrapped the idea :-(...
A bit funny given that the entirety of Pathfinder is essentially 3rd party content.
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I basically found out my DM doesn't do 3rd Party Content, so I've unfortunately scrapped the idea :-(...
I was that way until recently. Until I read this (a must read for any GM) followed by starting this thread.
Basically, the psionic book is one of the best balanced books in the pathfinder system, and everyone who writes, reviews, and uses third party stuff agrees. Which you'll see in that second link.
Check out this review by Endzeitgeist, the most respected and top reviewer of pathfinder products with over 1700 reviews.
Well they play with 7 people, so if someone quits, I jump in and I'd be the 7th... I Wanted to play a Psion, but everyone in the group thinks that a Psion VS anyone else gets beaten hands down... And I don't know of any way to convince them since if the DM says something, no one questions it.
If you join an existing party you should adapt to their style of play rather than make the game worse (if even subjectively) for them.
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Well they play with 7 people, so if someone quits, I jump in and I'd be the 7th... I Wanted to play a Psion, but everyone in the group thinks that a Psion VS anyone else gets beaten hands down... And I don't know of any way to convince them since if the DM says something, no one questions it.
Honestly, if a GM says something like that, it's usually a major red flag. Like, when I see a GM that bans psionics for being overpowered, said GM might as well have "I know nothing about this game" tattooed on his/her forehead as it would deliver the same message at roughly the same speed.
Well I'll try and send those 2 links to the DM to change his mind... because in all honesty... Vitalist is much more NORMAL than Magus is... Magus is OP even if played poorly... Or am I crazy?
I was that way until recently. Until I read this (a must read for any GM) followed by starting this thread.
Here's a third article to you collection, one especially for psionics.
Vitalist is much more NORMAL than Magus is... Magus is OP even if played poorly... Or am I crazy?
Define OP. Magus have lower utility than Wizard and lower damage than Barbarian or smiting Paladin. It's also mostly shut down by electricity resistance, and high-level angels and demons are flat-out immune to electricity. In a party of low to mid level fighters, rogues and monks magus might look OP.
Vitalist doesn't really have much utility unless you take Expanded Knowledge multiple times. He's a one-trick pony, but he does his trick very well. Spherical mender 20 in vacuum heals 1200 hp divided as he pleases among four party members, with one standard action, up to ~20 times per day. That's ~23000 hp healed per day. Of course about half to third would be overheal, as most parties don't have such hp pools. Healing at half strength would be 600 hp per standard action, ~20000 hp per day. IMO high-level menders are not very fun to play (with), because you basically can't die from hp damage.
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Lenders get to the point where they're a lot like Life Oracles, with so much healing and so little else that the party will probably very rarely be concerned about hit point damage, but the guy playing the healer might actually get a bit bored and an inexperienced GM might get a bit flustered.
Congrats on picking up Ultimate Psionics, btw, you now own one of the coolest, best designed, and best balanced source books in the entire Pathfinder game :)
UP is pretty much a staple at my table, and Dreamscarred's stewardship of the psionic materials was one of the major factors that completely changed my views on 3pp materials (alongside the absolutely stunning Cerulean Seas book by Alluria Publishing).
TY Nyaa, that's Very good reading... omg.
As for the "Define OP"... Anyone I've explained the whole tactic of full round attacks plus spell, which you could hit again for max BAB, plus Intensified Spell Shocking Grasp... you're a force to be reckoned with until level 10, unless the DM starts throwing creatures at you immune to lightning damage... in which case I would probably see that as the DM trying to counter how I'm playing lol.
It may not be OP... but this is my first time deeply researching a class and it's combo's... and so far, it feels OP... but then again I haven't gone and researched an OP Wizard build or some such, I guess I could and then play him all OP so the DM can "Ban Wizards for being OP!" which would be Dumb, but he might do it if I'm too ridiculous.
I've had a Love for Psionics... and it's true, ever since they came out, all my friends wouldn't allow me to play them because "They're broken" well I fully understood them, and I love the power point system (Spellcasters should at least get a version of this, even if they can't buff their spells with these points).
"Spherical mender 20 in vacuum heals 1200 hp divided as he pleases among four party members, with one standard action, up to ~20 times per day. That's ~23000 hp healed per day. Of course about half to third would be overheal, as most parties don't have such hp pools. Healing at half strength would be 600 hp per standard action, ~20000 hp per day. IMO high-level menders are not very fun to play (with), because you basically can't die from hp damage."
^ What's all that? It sounds awesome and I must know!
Psionic Heal, vitalist abilities. Don't forget to multiply result by 1.5 for Mender's Expertise.
Whelp, that's a bit of healing XD... Trying to figure out why you said Spherical mender 20 in vacuum", but that's the first time I've seen that healing ability.
Sadly the group I'd Want to use Vitalist with only gets to around lvl 15 or so before the DM ends the campaign because he can't keep it balanced. 7 people is a lot of people to balance encounters for. He keeps doing singular creature HUGE boss fight instead of a dozen or so smaller creatures because a Druid in the party is a Minion Master basically lol... so they have like 9 summons, hard to balance combat... or so he claims...
It looks like English version is spherical cow.
And single huge boss is bad encounter design. If it doesn't die in the first round of combat (especially against 7 people and 9 summons), it probably have CR so much higher than the group's that it can kill anyone with one hit, or at least 2-3 people with full attack.
^ So because of that... I was looking at Life Leech, and hopefully adding one of the summons to the Collective ( I think that's valid? ) so I can siphon off the boss smashing someone to pieces to a minion... OR by some miraculous event I add the boss to the collective and he kills himself with his own hit...
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By 15th level, you can never die and can do rescue missions if there is a TPK for some reason. All thanks to their Collective working at any distance in the same plane.
At 19th, it makes it almost impossible to kill a Vitalist. Just sit somewhere safe in an good plane surrounded by celestials and just keep tabs and heal your party across the multiverse.
Ridiculous, I think. I wish they would errata those two abilities out and keep it at Line of Sight within Medium range
This is patently false. There are plenty of counters to the collective and Collective healing abilities.
I've pointed out several to the above poster on the DSP forums.
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Uh... does Barachiel Shina know that Vitalists have a limited number of power points per day? And that Vitalists are a class focused on spending those power points to replenish a parties HP resource? A resource that any class in the game can reduce? What about the fact that there are options to suppress and eliminate the party members that the collective can't help with? Or that buffing and healing your party from safety sounds cool and could be useful, but it's hardly something overpowered like Simulacrum, which was 2 levels earlier for arcane casters?
If not someone should tell them.
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Uh... does Barachiel Shina know that Vitalists have a limited number of power points per day? And that Vitalists are a class focused on spending those power points to replenish a parties HP resource? A resource that any class in the game can reduce? What about the fact that there are options to suppress and eliminate the party members that the collective can't help with? Or that buffing and healing your party from safety sounds cool and could be useful, but it's hardly something overpowered like Simulacrum, which was 2 levels earlier for arcane casters?
If not someone should tell them.
Nah, this is the same phenomenon that you see when people are talking about wizards: Schrodinger's Wizard. Always prepared with the right amount of anything that is needed to succeed at whatever task is at hand.
And I have already demonstrated multiple ways to eliminate the effect of the collective, his thinking is just one-dimensional. Believing that the only way to deal with the vitalist is to be able to attack him.
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Schrodinger's Vitalist? Cool.
Nimoot: Elan make good vitalist with their reconstruction alternate ability, but you could also take two levels in Alchemist and take the Tumor Familiar, add it to your collective, and spread it's Fast Healing 5 around as you see fit. :)
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Barachiel provides some good examples... just not for the side he's trying to argue. The following assumes no rebuilding, but a DM that plays enemies to their intelligence.
Storm Giants are difficult to control due to constant freedom of movement. A 15th-level party is going to be facing them 2-4 at a time, and they are smart enemies. Add both Control Weather and Call Lightning to the SLAs, and they can nuke out weaker party members. Not too bad, though, if you are prepared.
The Pit Fiends have Wish once each. That means an unimpeachable teleport, without any deviation. Vitalist finds himself at point-blank range to three of the nastiest monsters the Nine Hells can conjure up, two of which probably readied actions to do horrible things to him. They also have a wide variety of SLAs, SoL effects, plus hit like trucks anyway, and are smart enough to focus fire and one-round major threats.
This is a roundabout way of making the point. A party with a Vitalist is virtually immune to HP damage unless it is enough to one-round or one-shot the character in question (Guardian Method makes this quantity much more difficult to reach for enemies). However, no amount of healing or temporary HP can stop a save-or-lose from connecting. They are excellent buffers and party support, but any DM worth his salt can present threats that are still threatening. They are only overpowered if allowed to be, something that takes actual effort once past level 10 or so.