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This post is intended primarily as an open letter to the development and management staff at Paizo. I would also welcome community input, but please refrain from vitriol and be considerate of all parties involved in this issue, and those with whom you discuss it.
Recently, Dr. Ed Friedlander (aka Pathguy) has been petitioned by Wizards of the Coast to remove the character generators from his website. Interestingly, they asked him not to take down only his generators based on WotC materials, but also his Pathfinder RPG character generator.
I do not know if Paizo staff are aware of this action. I submit that Dr. Friedlander is a longtime devotee of our hobby, and eagerly would like to work with content producers in a way that is respectful of their work and intellectual property, but also allows him to produce the tools that help players engage with it.
Obviously, none of us can speak for WotC, and I imagine that it would be wise for Paizo staff to consider any novel information this post presents before making any public statements. I post this thread to raise community awareness of Dr. Friendlander's current situation, and to encourage discourse on the matter.
May your dice turn up 20s.
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Your post would have done infinity times better if "pathguy" was in the title. I came here to post about this, saw your title, and had no idea you were posting about the same issue.
In any case, yes, it appears from this post:
http://www.pathguy.com/ddnext.htm
...that Wizards has demanded that all Pathfinder materials be removed.
I have no idea how they believe they have a legal right to control Paizo's PRD content. But apparently they do believe that, and pathguy was forced to comply.
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Well, a lot of Pathfinder and the PRD content derives from Wizards of the Coast's IP and is used by way of the Open Gaming Licence. This content may be reused if—and only if—the OGL is appropriately included and passed along. It seems though, that the website in question did not include a copy of the OGL, and thus Dr. Friedlander was actually using Wizard's copyrighted content in an unlicensed way, and Wizard was well within their rights to demand its removal.
That doesn't mean, however, that this is a clever way for Wizards to proceed, PR-wise, but we already know that PR hasn't been Wizards' strong suit these past years when it comes to D&D.
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There is a tempest brewing about it in RPG section of Reddit. They have a couple hundred comments about it now.
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One must wonder if the request to remove Pathfinder material by Wizard of the Coast (WOTC) was an attempt to defend another company's (Paizo's) intellectual property(IP), or were they simply defending the OGL? If Pathguy's site lacked the OGL required text, that could be the case here.
Or we could go with a crazy conspiracy theory, and assume the WOTC defense of Pathfinder is the beginning of a legal salvo to claim Pathfinder is actually their IP due to some inscrutable legal reasoning. :-)
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There is a tempest brewing about it in RPG section of Reddit. They have a couple hundred comments about it now.
I have fueled the tempest.
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WOTC/Hasbro has developed the same adversarial relationship with their customers as TSR had before them.
Character generators like his attract the customer base to buy books, not discourage them from it. This is just bullying in legalese, but it also creates bad marketing karma. If you treat your customers like crap they will go away, so I think the market will take care of WOTC and the Dungeons & Dragons branded products in time.
But they should have no right to Pathfinder materials. It seems to me like WOTC is asserting its ownership over Pathfinder too. I don't think Paizo should stand for this.
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Every time I entertain the fleeting itch to see what 5e is like, I remember who publishes it and just how much that company has damaged it's own RP community over the years. The fate of both Dragon and Dungeon magazine being perfect examples of moves that enrage a fan base.
Then I come to my senses and continue to enjoy Pathfinder. I've never begrudged a single dollar I've sent Paizo's way - on the flip side of that coin, I'm increasing convinced that WotC neither wants or deserves my money, given the way they handle themselves.
There were other ways WotC could have worked with Pathguy instead of the heavy handed approach (assuming, that is, WotC didn't try a carrot instead of a stick to start - I'm not going to pretend we know the whole story here).
They won't win converts to their games by throwing their Legal Dept. in people's faces.
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They won't win converts to their games by throwing their Legal Dept. in people's faces.
This is very true.
For me, one of the most frustrating things they've done was shut down D&D Tools - a resource I actively and consistently used to peruse materials I owned while away from my house, as well as to plan future purchases of WotC material.
So of course they shut it down.
Yes, it was legal. But it was so frustrating... and that's generally how I describe my relationship with WotC: frustrating.
I much prefer Paizo - even when they make decisions that I don't particularly like in their game system, they listen and respond they make them with reasons for the greater good of the game and community. And that I can definitely get behind.
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Such a bummer. If it weren't for Pathguy's character generator, I would have had a ton of trouble rolling up my first Pathfinder character.
RIP.
Boo on you WOTC.
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None of the star wars RPG stuff (d20 or saga) was covered under the OGL. Most of the 3e/3.5e stuff wasn't OGL. I would imagine the core of his problem was not being in compliance with the license.
Also, I just checked his site and he says his Pathfinder generator will remain active (and it is!).
So not all is lost. :D
-Skeld
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None of the star wars RPG stuff (d20 or saga) was covered under the OGL. Most of the 3e/3.5e stuff wasn't OGL. I would imagine the core of his problem was not being in compliance with the license.
Also, I just checked his site and he says his Pathfinder generator will remain active (and it is!).
So not all is lost. :D
-Skeld
Yes, it went back up today.
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Hmm... I can only speculate that somebody pointed out to WOTC that they don't own Pathfinder.
Well, I'm glad the Pathfinder one is back up now.
So are they going after the Excel spreadsheets like Heroforge next?
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Yet another reason why WotC will never see a dime from me.
It is a tricky situation for a corporation to be in. If they aren't planning on releasing a competing product, they could genuinely not want to annoy their fanbase but still have to pursue legal action.
The issue is that under US copyright law (at least from my understanding - maybe there is a real lawyer around), you must challenge every instance of infringement you become aware of. If someone can prove that you knew of something and did not challenge it, then you can no longer challenge anything, basically losing your legal standing.
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It is a tricky situation for a corporation to be in. If they aren't planning on releasing a competing product, they could genuinely not want to annoy their fanbase but still have to pursue legal action.
The issue is that under US copyright law (at least from my understanding - maybe there is a real lawyer around), you must challenge every instance of infringement you become aware of. If someone can prove that you knew of something and did not challenge it, then you can no longer challenge anything, basically losing your legal standing.
Incorrect, and common misconception.
You're confusing copyrights and trademarks.
Incorrect, and common misconception.
You're confusing copyrights and trademarks.
Ahh, ok. In any case, the point I was hinting at still stands. There is always another side to a story, and it may not be "that big evil corporation blah blah blah".
In any case, just as with any IP, it is their right to protect it.
Though, it sounds like they are leaving the Pathfinder stuff alone now, so the original issue seems solved.
It usually is "that big evil corporation blah blah blah", though.