Help me make a rogue that doesn't suck

[Kefler]

AndIMustMask wrote:

Kefler wrote:

racial heritage ogre

Savage Critical
You are able to land critical hits precisely, dealing devastating damage.

Prerequisites: Str 19, ogre, sneak attack +2d6.
Benefit: When you hit a creature using the Vital Strike feat or confirm a critical hit against an opponent, add your sneak attack damage to the damage from the attack. This feat has no effect on attacks that already allow you to add sneak attack damage.

seems like a good option for a critfisher build--vital strike with a falchion or similar 2H weapon fo maximum deeps

I would probaly go twf and kukris, mabye knife master.

[Imbicatus]

Also, by strict raw, savage critical makes the sneak attack damage no longer precision damage.

[Kefler]

Imbicatus wrote:

Also, by strict raw, savage critical makes the sneak attack damage no longer precision damage.

yeah but most time a creature that is immune to sneak attacks is also immune to crits

[DiscOH]

OK, so I've been doing some brainstorming and here is what I've got.

I'll touch first on interesting rogue build options, then look at rogue only (not ninja) unique abilities, and then try to find any synergies done best by rogues.

Ranged Options
Guns - Double-barreled pistol (Best Gun Period)
Spells - No good options from major magic/wands
Bows - Doesn't really matter
Crossbow - Hand Crossbow

Melee Options
Weapons - Knife family
Spells - Chill Touch
Thats it

Lets talk about what the rogue does pre 10:

Thug - level 1 the most reliable AoE CC in the game.
Carnivalist - level 2 - Sneak Attack on Familiar (gives up Sneak attack progression)
Charlatan - Level 3 - Rumor Monger (Only useful for RP, but still pretty useful)
Knife Master - d8 sneak attack progression
Sniper - level 3 - Half ranged penalties, free sneak attack range boost
Swashbuckler - Extra combat feat available
Underground Chemist - level 2 - Can quick draw and add int to damage on splash weapons
I'm going to skip Eldritch Raider because you can do way cooler things with a Arcane Trickster. WAAAAAAY cooler.

Every other rogue ability is either available to ninjas (who are otherwise superior to rogue's and therefore make for a better build) or I don't consider valuable enough to post here (I could have missed something).

Carnivalist - A really great build option, but choosing it also means you lose your sneak attack progression (IE the only reason every to choose rogue). So after 2 levels you need to find a new class. This archetype will not fuel our purposes.

Charlatan - A cool level 3 dip into what could make an interesting bard build, but also gains no additional synergy from the class progression. Plus its purely RP, so I'll skip that * 2.

Sniper - The bonus range on sneak attack is pretty cool, but once people can afford sniper goggles the only useful aspect is the half range penalty. This is only useful for a hand crossbow as everything else has way more range than you will ever need (This thread initially tried and failed to create a crossbow build, I'll ignore this option as a result).

Underground Chemist - Great for Alch 1 / Rogue 2 / The rest of your levels never matter cuase you just throw alchemist's fire as fast as possible. But again, rogue doesn't really help this, and you probably want fighter levels for the feats/full BAB.

Thug - Nobody takes more than 1 level of thug. I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

Swashbuckler and Knife Master are the only two remaining options.

I don't think guns have much to do with either, but there is an old Drunken Master + forgotten trick combo I think might make for a better brawler if swashbuckler was giving it two feats to switch between. I need to research all the options.

Chill touch is done really well by an arcane trickster (spectral hand and chill touch let you sneak attack at any range. Works really well with carnivalist 2 / Snakebite Striker 1).

Bows / Crossbow we already struck out on, so that just leaves knives as an option (Which I think need to be thrown, but IDK yet).

So lets see if we can refocus this thread. Do you consider the knife master/Swashbuckler to be competitive options pre 10 (Post 10 I feel like Martial classes are already having a hard enough time staying relevant, and the rogue's being mostly a toolbox version of martial characters are basically garbage).

I'll try to work on some more stuff for these guys. Let me know if you have any ideas :D

[Bandw2]

rogue 1/fighter 19 or any other combination of the two, drop brawler.

or

bard[archaeologist] 20

[DiscOH]

Bandw2 wrote:

drop brawler.

Brawler is the only source of non prestique class stacking sneak attack. Its really good, especially with full BAB. Every rogue should take 1 level of brawler.

[Bandw2]

DiscOH wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

drop brawler.

Brawler is the only source of non prestique class stacking sneak attack. Its really good, especially with full BAB. Every rogue should take 1 level of brawler.

I don't follow, Brawler doesn't have anything to do with sneak attack(flurry is just a free TWF feat, which TWF fighter would be better). anyway relying on sneak attack dice for damage is bad, you want to-hit more than damage.

[Chess Pwn]

I believe it's the Snakebite Striker archetype, gets a d6 of sneak attack at lv1 with full bab and a good hit die and fort saves.

[ShroudedInLight]

Swashbuckler can help out a good bow build, as you can take the Long Bow (Composite) as your martial weapon. It also gives you TWO combat tricks which will help you make up for your lack of feats.

Now, you may be asking "How am I going to get sneak attacks?"

The answer is fricking simple, Smokesticks and Fogcutter's Lenses. Or, if you want to be really fancy Major Magic Obscuring Mists.

1: Point Blank Shot
(2) Combat Trick (Rapid Shot/Precise Shot)
3: Precise Shot
(4): Combat Trick Deadly Aim
5: Exceptional Pull
7: ranged feat/etc
9: Manyshot

Thus at level 9 you've got 4 attacks that are all sneak attacks provided you are hidden in smoke, which is easy because Fog Cutters are so cheap. Heck, you even get Obscuring Mists 2/day if you want. Anyway, Fogcutters are super cheap and if you can get your whole party to wear them you guys can go in under the cover of fog-cloud and come out smelling of roses and ninjas.

Alternatively, just get your local Wizard to drop a nice Fogcloud, or make use of a Smokestick each combat and BAM it works.

Sure it means you are within 30ft of the badguys, but as a Rogue you would be anyway. Might as well be cloaked in Fog, smoke, ash, or what have you.

At 9th level a Slayer has 2 attacks and does 3d6 on each of them, so they have 4 attacks and deal a total of 12d6 sneak attack. This rogue has 4 attacks and does 20d6 sneak attack.

At 20th level a slayer has 4 attacks, 6 with a Bow, and does 6d6 on a sneak attack so they do 36d6 sneak attack. A Rogue has 3 attacks, 5 with a Bow, and does 10d6 a sneak attack. So they do 50d6 sneak attack.

The slayer deals 5 extra damage per attack on a studied target though, so they do deal an extra 30 damage which compared to 14d6's average of 49...so the Rogue only deals 19 more damage...so the Slayer's 4th attack probably pushes them over.

Still, it's about as close as it gets.

[DiscOH]

ShroudedInLight wrote:

Swashbuckler can help out a good bow build, as you can take the Long Bow (Composite) as your martial weapon. It also gives you TWO combat tricks which will help you make up for your lack of feats.

Now, you may be asking "How am I going to get sneak attacks?"

The answer is fricking simple, Smokesticks and Fogcutter's Lenses. Or, if you want to be really fancy Major Magic Obscuring Mists.

1: Point Blank Shot
(2) Combat Trick (Rapid Shot/Precise Shot)
3: Precise Shot
(4): Combat Trick Deadly Aim
5: Exceptional Pull
7: ranged feat/etc
9: Manyshot

Thus at level 9 you've got 4 attacks that are all sneak attacks provided you are hidden in smoke, which is easy because Fog Cutters are so cheap. Heck, you even get Obscuring Mists 2/day if you want. Anyway, Fogcutters are super cheap and if you can get your whole party to wear them you guys can go in under the cover of fog-cloud and come out smelling of roses and ninjas.

Alternatively, just get your local Wizard to drop a nice Fogcloud, or make use of a Smokestick each combat and BAM it works.

Sure it means you are within 30ft of the badguys, but as a Rogue you would be anyway. Might as well be cloaked in Fog, smoke, ash, or what have you.

This is non nova build of what was posted on the first page. Bows lose out to hand crossbows because they have the same sneak attack range, and can't be concealed for maximized sneak attack damage. Once you get sniper's goggles this changes significantly, but we already covered that too in the first build.

Thank you for your contribution though :)

[ShroudedInLight]

Sniper Goggles are 20,000. Fogcutter's are 8000, and can honestly be made by most Wizards for merely 4000. Besides, while Sniper's allow any distance sneak attack They do not GIVE YOU sneak attacks. So you need to find a method to sneak attack that isn't taking great and glorious advantage of Fogcutters.

Besides that, Handcrossbows do NOT get Strength to damage which a Compound Bow will. Additionally Bows gain Manyshot AND bows can use Exceptional Pull AND deal more damage by default AND involve less feats.

So no, Bows do NOT lose out to the Hand crossbow for sneak attacks. That would be absurd, the handcrossbow is one of the single worst weapons in the game along with all the rest of the crossbows in the hands of anyone but a Bolt Ace.

[RumpinRufus]

Exceptional Pull is a pretty terrible feat. Adding Adaptive to your bow is a flat 1,000 and is a strictly better benefit (unless you are planning to start picking up and using a lot of random bows besides your main one.)

[ShroudedInLight]

Ah, I misread Exceptional pull to add +2 to your Strength rather than to add +2 to the weapon's rating :(

[wraithstrike]

DiscOH wrote:

We've heard it all. Sneak attack is unreliable, rogue's have terrible accuracy, fighter's do way better dps.

The goal for this build is a generally stealthy dps machine. I'm ok taking levels of things not rogue but would prefer to not to splash too hard. I will consider the build a success if a less rogue-ish build can not perform in a similar role more effectively.

Alignment]CN (In order to worship thamir gixx)

Race Human +2 dex

Traits
Always Threatening (I'm not sure if you can retrain traits, but possibly retrained with reactionary after we obtain gloves of storing)
Heirloom Weapon (Longbow)

Classes
Level 1-2 Rogue [bandit; sniper]
level 3 Brawler [Snakebite Striker](+1d6 to sneak attack)
level 4 Fighter [Undecided](We needed martial weapon proficiency, and fighter gives us a combat feat, gets retrained at higher levels for rogue)
level 5+ Rogue

Rogue Talents
Snap Shot
Underhanded
Combat Trick
Weapon Training [repeating hand crossbow]

Skill Focuses (from human)
Some knowledge skill
stealth

Feats
Quick Draw (gets retrained once we obtain gloves of storing)
Hellcat Pounce
Eldritch Heritage [arcane][Monkey Familiar]
Rapid Shot
Dampen Presence
Precise Shot (Is there a way to avoid this feat tax?)

Significant Magic Items
Ioun Stones
Vibrant Purple Prism (Cracked) 2000 gp
Opalescent White Pyramid (Cracked) [repeating hand crossbow](Gets sold after we obtain Glove of Storing) 1500 gp

Boots of the soft step (Just to make sure I always can sneak) 1000 gp
+1 Sneaking repeating hand crossbow (Replaced with longbow after we obtain Glove of Storing) 8000 gp
Wand of obscuring mist 750 gp
Assassin's Sight (Gets replaced with sniper's goggles at high levels) 5250 gp
Goz Mask 8000 gp
(Potentially an ever smoking bottle if our party is compatible)

How combat works:
During the surprise round our familiar casts Obscuring Mist through the ioun stone and...

How is your monkey reloading the crossbow on your turn? You are still two different characters with their own turns.

[Yure]

DiscOH. When I said sniper I meant the sniper and the scout archetypes both together.

[DiscOH]

wraithstrike wrote:

How is your monkey reloading the crossbow on your turn? You are still two different characters with their own turns.

The repeating crossbows have 5 ammunition per reload, it doesn't matter when the monkey reloads my weapon so long as it's before my turn comes up again. Every turn the monkey would spend a full round action to switch out the clip regardless of the number of arrows left.

Is this not legal? I'm pretty sure this is doable if I teach it via a trick.

Yure wrote:

DiscOH. When I said sniper I meant the sniper and the scout archetypes both together.

I feel like Bandit's Full attack during the surprise round helps us a whole lot more.

I guess we could have our monkey familiar take the Valet archetype and pick up the teamwork feat "Lookout" instead, but in addition to the feat tax this gives us, it also makes us lose Alertness which can be used to qualify for Sleepless detective (a stacking single level sneak attack class).

I like the scout archetype, but I don't think we're having much trouble qualifying for sneak attacks late game. Do you feel like I'm overlooking something here?

ShroudedInLight wrote:

Sniper Goggles are 20,000. Fogcutter's are 8000, and can honestly be made by most Wizards for merely 4000. Besides, while Sniper's allow any distance sneak attack They do not GIVE YOU sneak attacks. So you need to find a method to sneak attack that isn't taking great and glorious advantage of Fogcutters.

Besides that, Handcrossbows do NOT get Strength to damage which a Compound Bow will. Additionally Bows gain Manyshot AND bows can use Exceptional Pull AND deal more damage by default AND involve less feats.

So no, Bows do NOT lose out to the Hand crossbow for sneak attacks. That would be absurd, the handcrossbow is one of the single worst weapons in the game along with all the rest of the crossbows in the hands of anyone but a Bolt Ace.

First I'd like to point out that Goz Mask is already in the first build and its a strictly better Fogcutter for the same price. But lets address the bow/crossbow argument (for the early game, I'm already transitioning to bows as currency allows).

Manyshot doesn't apply sneak attack damage, It's not really worth the feat IMO. Additionally, Crossbows can use the Assassin's Sights which give 60 ft sneak attack range (The early alternative to sniper's goggles). I thought I covered this in my first post, but maybe I could learn some stuff about formatting to properly highlight my important build decisions.

I don't consider the 1-2 str that a compound bow provides to outperform the maximized sneak attack die early game, and late game I've already agreed that a bow should be switched to (as you can maintain the maximized sneak dice with our glove of storing). Proficiency is being gained here from our heirloom weapon trait. If you feel that swashbuckler's extra combat trick and the additional open trait (since heirloom weapon wouldn't be chosen here) is worth more than half range penalties and extended sneak attack range, I'd be interested to hear your argument. From where I'm standing though it seems like Sniper works way better for ranged attacks.

[wraithstrike]

DiscOH wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

How is your monkey reloading the crossbow on your turn? You are still two different characters with their own turns.

The repeating crossbows have 5 ammunition per reload, it doesn't matter when the monkey reloads my weapon so long as it's before my turn comes up again. Every turn the monkey would spend a full round action to switch out the clip regardless of the number of arrows left.

Is this not legal? I'm pretty sure this is doable if I teach it via a trick.

From what I read you said you were doing this twice in the surprise round, but in the surprise round you do not get two full round attacks. You only get one standard action barring some special feature. That is why I was asking. Since familiar are pretty intelligent they dont need to learn tricks.

The bandit archetype says

Quote:

At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action.

This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

That is not the same as getting a full round action because that is its own specific action.

During normal combat rounds you get the option of using a full attack or using the other individual actions, but the bandit ability just adds the swift and move action to your options during surprise rounds.

edit: You said "During the surprise round our familiar casts Obscuring Mist through the ioun stone and we full attack everybody twice maximizing our sneak attack dice."

[DiscOH]

wraithstrike wrote:

From what I read you said you were doing this twice in the surprise round, but in the surprise round you do not get two full round attacks. You only get one standard action barring some special feature. That is why I was asking. Since familiar are pretty intelligent they dont need to learn tricks.

The bandit archetype says

Quote:

At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action.

This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

That is not the same as getting a full round action because that is its own specific action.

During normal combat rounds you get the option of using a full attack or using the other individual actions, but the bandit ability just adds the swift and move action to your options during surprise rounds.

You're correct, I should have said "Attack up to 5 times during the surprise round". By the time the difference would take effect, the build would have transitioned into a bow though. (So no harm done?)

As to the bandit feature, I don't want to derail the thread with talk about trading a move + standard for a full action. There are lots of rules threads already addressing that.

In either case, I'm 90% sure guns are going to universally outperform anything with an arrow (I was apprehensive at first, but after doing a bit of math I can drop the misfire down to ~.3% with ~10k gold so double pistols = double the flavor and double the fun at touch AC). I'd like to try and move the conversation away from the bow/crossbow build initially posted and more towards the rogue specializations on this page.

[wraithstrike]

DiscOH wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

From what I read you said you were doing this twice in the surprise round, but in the surprise round you do not get two full round attacks. You only get one standard action barring some special feature. That is why I was asking. Since familiar are pretty intelligent they dont need to learn tricks.

The bandit archetype says

Quote:

At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action.

This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

That is not the same as getting a full round action because that is its own specific action.

During normal combat rounds you get the option of using a full attack or using the other individual actions, but the bandit ability just adds the swift and move action to your options during surprise rounds.

You're correct, I should have said "Attack up to 5 times during the surprise round". By the time the difference would take effect, the build would have transitioned into a bow though. (So no harm done?)

As to the bandit feature, I don't want to derail the thread with talk about trading a move + standard for a full action. There are lots of rules threads already addressing that.

In either case, I'm 90% sure guns are going to universally outperform anything with an arrow (I was apprehensive at first, but after doing a bit of math I can drop the misfire down to ~.3% with ~10k gold so double pistols = double the flavor and double the fun at touch AC). I'd like to try and move the conversation away from the bow/crossbow build initially posted and more towards the rogue specializations on this page.

Yeah double guns are ahead, but with that aside weapon choice does matter when you are deciding between crossbows and bows.

Also guns are only ahead if you dip into a class that allows you to target touch AC, and provides dex to damage.

I still don't see how you are attacking 5 times, and the rules have to be addressed if the claim is being made. Otherwise the builds can't do what they claim to do.

Another point that will be made is "Is the rogue class doing the heavy lifting".
I guess my question is -->Is the goal to have the rogue class features do most of the work or is the goal to take some levels of rogue, and have a decent or better build?

Question 2: Is the goal still to have the rogue be ahead of another class at what this build is supposed to be able to accomplish?

[AndIMustMask]

@discOH: a fun fact; swashbuckler rogues are set PERFECTLY for the scimitar/dervish dance--they can grab proficiency via the archetype, and can use combat trick at level 2 for their talent to grab it (which is a level earlier than a magus, for example).

might be worth noting in your collected options.

also, another build i threw together (using some of the bits i talked about earlier):

'iconic' rogue v2 - now with 50% more elf! tries to combine the bad touch and 'iconic' builds with shadowdancer instead of horizon walker.

Spoiler:

half elf rogue (bandit/swashbuckler) 17 / shadowdancer 3
(levels go ROG 6/SD 3/ROG +11)
falchion as swashbuckler weapon; 6 FCB to extra talent (human), 11 FCB to +5 minor/+6 major magic talent uses (elf)

stats - dex>cha>con>wis>int>str (don't dump str!)

traits - trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)

talents
2 - combat trick (dervish dance)
4 - combat trick (mobility)
6 - minor magic (detect magic 8/day), major magic (chill touch 8/day)
9 - weapon training (scimitar)
11 - fast stealth
13* - opportunist
15* - ???
17* - ???
19* - ???

feats
1 - weapon finesse
3 - dodge
5 - combat reflexes
7 - steadfast personality
9 - skill focus (stealth)
11 - hellcat stealth
13 - dampen presence
15 - ???
17 - ???
19 - ???

[Imbicatus]

Kefler wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Also, by strict raw, savage critical makes the sneak attack damage no longer precision damage.

yeah but most time a creature that is immune to sneak attacks is also immune to crits

But nothing is immune to vital strike unless they are also immune to weapon damage.

[DiscOH]

Imbicatus wrote:

But nothing is immune to vital strike unless they are also immune to weapon damage.

This is a really interesting feat chain, but if you want to build around vital strikes, look up conqueror ooze. The druid does this super well.

wraithstrike wrote:

Also guns are only ahead if you dip into a class that allows you to target touch AC, and provides dex to damage.

...
I still don't see how you are attacking 5 times, and the rules have to be addressed if the claim is being made. Otherwise the builds can't do what they claim to do.
...
Is the goal still to have the rogue be ahead of another class at what this build is supposed to be able to accomplish?

Each level of rogue provides 3 damage per level during the surprise round, (and 1.75 damage per level outside of it). A 1 level dip into gunslinger is totally appropriate as it gives quick clear and firearm proficiency (2 Rogue Talents normally). Since you need to spend another 4 levels on gunslinger to deal dex as damage, you would need to have 34 Dex in order to outperform sneak attack damage gains (During the surprise round). Thats pretty hard to do.

All repeating crossbows (Which I was using via ioun stone proficiency) have 5 arrows per reload. This number of attacks was never reached pre Bow transition, hence the previous statement about no harm having been done.

For clarities sake:

The goal of this thread is to make a primarily Rogue-ish build that finds a niche of the game that no other class (including ninja) could do better.
(sorry for bold, just want to make this clear as we go forward)

AndIMustMask wrote:

@discOH: a fun fact; swashbuckler rogues are set PERFECTLY for the scimitar/dervish dance--they can grab proficiency via the archetype, and can use combat trick at level 2 for their talent to grab it (which is a level earlier than a magus, for example).

might be worth noting in your collected options.

also, another build i threw together (using some of the bits i talked about earlier):

'iconic' rogue v2 - now with 50% more elf! tries to combine the bad touch and 'iconic' builds with shadowdancer instead of horizon walker.** spoiler omitted **

I really like the Dervish Dance builds, but I think a level dip into bard makes this more useful (since bard lets you skip weapon finesse). This means that a ninja would fulfill this build more efficiently, and we're trying to outdo a ninja.

Again, I really like chill touch, but any chill touch build is being done so much better by an arcane trickster, that I can't justify taking it on rogue right now. For instance, an arcane trickster can share spectral hand with his evolved familiar, then have the both of them full attack each round for way too many 500+ ft range sneak attacks (melee attacks have no sneak attack range limit, and this still counts as melee thanks to spectral hand). All of this gets boosted by metamagic for 1.5x total damage. You can also ignore up to total cover with it since its being done by an ethereal object. Chill touch is great, its just greatest on a non rogue.

Editing in some build stuff:

Drunken Master 3 lets us spam Forgotten trick as much as we want.

Spoiler:

Drunken Ki (Su): At 3rd level, a drunken master can drink a tankard of ale or strong alcohol and gain one temporary ki point. The act of drinking is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The monk can have a maximum number of drunken ki points equal to 1 plus one additional point for every two levels thereafter (5th, 7th, and so on). The monk can gain this temporary ki even before he gains a ki pool at 4th level. These drunken ki points last for 1 hour or until spent, whichever is shorter. As long as he has at least 1 drunken ki point, the monk can spend 1 ki point as a swift action to move 5 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces still mind.

With Flask of Endless Sake 4,000 gp

Spoiler:

This simple ceramic flask looks like any other normal container for serving sake, or rice wine. If the flask’s silver stopper is removed and the command word spoken, up to 1 gallon of sake can be poured from the flask per round.

With Ring of Ki Mastery 10,000 gp

Spoiler:

This ring is half onyx and half clear-white crystal, magically fused together and hardened to the strength of steel. It allows a wearer with a ki pool to store up to 2 ki points in the ring as a swift action. These points remain in the ring until used. The wearer can use the ki points normally, or can gain the following benefits when he has ki points stored in the ring.

As long as there is at least one ki point stored in the ring, the wearer gains a +2 bonus to CMD against grapple, reposition, and trip attempts.

As long as there are at least 2 ki points stored in the ring, the wearer reduces the number of ki points needed to use a ninja trick or ki ability by 1 (minimum 1 ki point).

So the question is, does swashbuckler let us remember combat trick twice?

Martial Training (Ex): At 1st level, the swashbuckler may select one martial weapon to add to her list of weapon proficiencies. In addition, she may take the combat trick rogue talent up to two times. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Forgotten Trick: A ninja with this ability can recall one trick taught to her by her ancient masters. When she uses this ability, she selects one ninja trick (not a master trick or rogue talent) that she does not know and can use that ninja trick for a number of rounds equal to her level. She must pay any ki costs associated with the trick as normal. Using this ability expends 2 ki point from her ki pool, plus the ki cost of the trick she chooses.

I feel like the answer is no, what do you guys think?

[AndIMustMask]

the point of chill touch for rogues is going off touch AC for attacks, which helps alleviate their whole issue of '3/4 BAB and no class accuracy boost unlike literally every class not named monk'.

seeing as ninja is literally a rogue with a more stable method of gaining sneak attack (via invisibility/greater invisibility), it will ALWAYS be better at rogue things than the rogue. if you're gonna argue skills against them, the bard/alchemist/investigator beats rogue and ninja with an arm behind their back.

i'll also note that the ninja class can't actually take the swashbuckler archetype (since it lacks the trapfinding/sense abilities to replace), making all of my listed builds--which are very intensive on when things are obtained--that use it impossible for a ninja by way of lacking that extra combat trick/feat.

now they could certainly pull off something similar with a different race or accepting the loss of a feat, but they'd have to come 'online' at a later level than my rogues if they wanted to hit the same notes (as far as i can tell--i haven't built too many ninjas of late).

.
EDIT: as for the forgotten trick thing, i'd personally allow it since you're expending a lot of resources and wealth to get it (and it makes you require a high WIS to have a decent ki pool since feats are so precious, making you MAD as well)

[Mark Hoover]

I've been struggling to build a decent Halfling slinger rogue. What I keep coming back to is full attack versus a single sneak attack. There are ways to get my rogue to sling in melee (6 level dip in either slayer or ranger) but not only is it a big step away from rogue but also rogues at higher levels don't last long in melee.

This brings me right back to 1 SA versus a full attack from range. The build is tough and feat intensive, meaning he doesn't really carry his own in combat until about 5th level but even at high level he's got one SA from stealth, then he needs to burn a Move action to re-hide via sniping. Normally he's taking a -20 but with being a Halfling and the Rogue Trick he's got no penalty and ridiculously high stealth. As long as he's got concealment, he's got SA every round.

But it's ONE SA. I have to blow through another 3 feats to p/up Bludgeoner/Sap Adept/Sap Master and buy a Merciful weapon to really make that one shot worthwhile. I've been combing this thread and others to find a way to make multiple ranged SA's but I'm convinced its just not possible.

[AndIMustMask]

hmm. if you're going the nonlethal route: perhaps a 1 or 2-level dip into order of the blue rose daring champion cavalier? panache abilites, fort save boost, other side abilities and +2d6 extra damage when using nonlethal has a lot of draw to it. thug AT + the hurtful feat lets you capitalize on nonlethal damage even further (unless it only works for melee, in which case disregard).

maybe consider scout rogue to basically be a skirmisher from 3.5?

[Bandw2]

DiscOH wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Also guns are only ahead if you dip into a class that allows you to target touch AC, and provides dex to damage.

...
I still don't see how you are attacking 5 times, and the rules have to be addressed if the claim is being made. Otherwise the builds can't do what they claim to do.
...
Is the goal still to have the rogue be ahead of another class at what this build is supposed to be able to accomplish?

Each level of rogue provides 3 damage per level during the surprise round, (and 1.75 damage per level outside of it). A 1 level dip into gunslinger is totally appropriate as it gives quick clear and firearm proficiency (2 Rogue Talents normally). Since you need to spend another 4 levels on gunslinger to deal dex as damage, you would need to have 34 Dex in order to outperform sneak attack damage gains (During the surprise round). Thats pretty hard to do.

All repeating crossbows (Which I was using via ioun stone proficiency) have 5 arrows per reload. This number of attacks was never reached pre Bow transition, hence the previous statement about no harm having been done.

For clarities sake:

The goal of this thread is to make a primarily Rogue-ish build that finds a niche of the game that no other class (including ninja) could do better.
(sorry for bold, just want to make this clear as we go forward)

except that 3 damage is ACTUALLY like 1.5 because your to-hit is so low and many creatures do not rely on dex for AC. during the surprise round you have 1 attack, that isn't going to be worth it to have your entire build rely on the surprise round.

seriously, stop trying to focus your build around sneak dice. a Slayer would be better, because overall they'd hit much more often and do more damage.

what rogues do very well is UMD and skills, but it basically ends there with some classes even out performing them there.

[AndIMustMask]

one could also dip 3 into trench fighter fighter for dex-to damage with firearms, and grab the amateur gunslinger feat for quick clear?

[DiscOH]

Bandw2 wrote:

except that 3 damage is ACTUALLY like 1.5 because your to-hit is so low and many creatures do not rely on dex for AC. during the surprise round you have 1 attack, that isn't going to be worth it to have your entire build rely on the surprise round.

seriously, stop trying to focus your build around sneak dice. a Slayer would be better, because overall they'd hit much more often and do more damage.

what rogues do very well is UMD and skills, but it basically ends there with some classes even out performing them there.

Flat footed touch AC is usually around 10. Thats pretty difficult not to hit.

Trench Fighter is a good find, but its not PFS so I won't mess with it. Completely obsoletes gunslinger through, great idea.

[AndIMustMask]

so fun fact: with the rough and ready + surprise weapon traits, you can potentially get a +2 trait bonus to attacks with anything (provided you invest a skill point into a relevant profession)

this could even apply to weapons, so long as you used it in an improper fashion (such as a reach weapon in melee, bashing with a longsword pommel, etc.) and you had a rank in profession (guard, soldier, etc) or anything with which that weapon is a 'tool of the trade'.

you'd have to deal with improvised weapon base damage/crit range however, which is a bit of a loss (and due to 3/4 bab, improvised weapon mastery is out of the question).

[Mark Hoover]

@MustyMask: so if you took a blacksmith, the 2 traits and then also bought a masterwork tool for 50GP, could you pump that up to +3?