so what if summoners are really good at adding allies to the fight? it is like their defining gimmick.
That is not true. A sorcerer can drop one or two spells, putting the fight in the party's favor, then save the other spells while the party cleans up.
When I play casters I don't "need" to cast spells every round to make sure the party does well.
Yeah, the sorc can sit around doing nothing after the first couple of spells.
Don't confuse can with "has to".
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Level 5-6 should be a lot easier to manage than level 20.
I think a more interesting test would be to run 4 sorcs through an adventure path and 4 summoners through the same path. I'm nearly certain that the summoners would do much better.
If you want the the summoners to lose, I would suggest Scars of the Third Crusade.
In general, going Synth or Master Summoner doesn't prove anything. I haven't seen many argue that they are balanced. Just like going neutral for the summoners seems rather cheap, unless you are going to allow the sorcerers to just use diplomacy to get out of it.
I would want more of a balanced group going against the summoners, although I might try to keep it reasonably stealthy. After all, perception isn't a class skill for summoners.
It's not an unbalanced list. It's fine as is. It's nowhere near an issue as early access PrC cheese.
It doesn't get them all. It gets enough that it's clearly unbalanced for a 6th level caster.
Agreed.
so what if summoners are really good at adding allies to the fight? it is like their defining gimmick.Counterpoint to your logic: just because something is a "defining gimmick" does not make it balanced or good. One could, in theory, create Class X whose defining gimmick is being able to cast Wizard spells but removing the saves from them-- automatic Create Pit, Dominate Monster, whatever. That ability is what Class X is built around. But it doesn't mean that Class X is balanced because hey, it's their gimmick!
Whether or not you feel the Summoner's summon-spam is fair is a debatable point, but defending it under the notion that it's their thing, therefore it's okay, is very flawed logic.
truesies. it is flawed logic, but there is a difference in level of acceptable gimmicks between "bring lots of allies to the fight" and "cast save or sucks that ignore the classic weaknesses"
I'm honestly curious. Multiple people have now stated in this thread that a martial catches up with a synth at 5th level. Can someone please post a 5th level martial build that can compete with the 5th level synth I posted in this thread? 59 HP, AC 28, and 4 attacks that average 20 damage each. Plus these numbers can easily be boosted with some self buffs and I had some wealth unspent.Sure. What do you define as a martial?
Also, what point-buy did you use, and exactly how many buffs did you assume active at all times (I recall Mage Armor being one).
funny thing is, assuming the eidolon didn't boost constitution, 26 of those 59 hit points are a temporary daily consumable buff that can't really be healed the normal way. if they did, it would stand in for 30-32 of those hit points. meaning an overdependancy on the suit, plus, a 13 base untransformed strength is needed for power attack. because eidolon strength doesn't meet prerequisites.
Don't confuse can with "has to".That is not true. A sorcerer can drop one or two spells, putting the fight in the party's favor, then save the other spells while the party cleans up.
When I play casters I don't "need" to cast spells every round to make sure the party does well.
Yeah, the sorc can sit around doing nothing after the first couple of spells.
Either the sorc casts a spell every round in which case his spell slot advantage goes away pretty quickly, or he doesn't cast anything after the first 1-2 rounds in which case every round afterwards is essentially a wasted action. The summoner on the other hand will be able to cast a spell or tear something apart virtually every round. Up to twice a round if you count the summoner and eidolon separately. Every round of his will be meaningful vs standard opponents. I don't count firing a light crossbow or acid splash as meaningful beyond 1st level by the way.
At a certain point the sorc has enough spell slots where it doesn't matter, but that won't be for at least a number of levels. The tipping point depends on system mastery and the type of campaign the GM sets up.
If the sorcerer can change the course of a fight by only taking 2 rounds of actions and twiddling his thumbs and yawning for the rest of the fight that is a feature not a weakness.
If the sorcerer can change the course of a fight by only taking 2 rounds of actions and twiddling his thumbs and yawning for the rest of the fight that is a feature not a weakness.Don't confuse can with "has to".That is not true. A sorcerer can drop one or two spells, putting the fight in the party's favor, then save the other spells while the party cleans up.
When I play casters I don't "need" to cast spells every round to make sure the party does well.
Yeah, the sorc can sit around doing nothing after the first couple of spells.
Either the sorc casts a spell every round in which case his spell slot advantage goes away pretty quickly, or he doesn't cast anything after the first 1-2 rounds in which case every round afterwards is essentially a wasted action. The summoner on the other hand will be able to cast a spell or tear something apart virtually every round. Up to twice a round if you count the summoner and eidolon separately. Every round of his will be meaningful vs standard opponents. I don't count firing a light crossbow or acid splash as meaningful beyond 1st level by the way.
At a certain point the sorc has enough spell slots where it doesn't matter, but that won't be for at least a number of levels. The tipping point depends on system mastery and the type of campaign the GM sets up.
most people will forget you made the fight easier with 2 rounds worth of spells, so you can always acid splash the opposition to make it look like you are doing the equivalent to minor damage while conserving resources.
the Sorcerer is the goddess that lets the mortals have their glory while contributing acid splashes on the side to make it look like she is doing something every round, no matter how minor
Are we really having this thread again?
Can't we just agree to post links to previous incarnations of the same discussions and not engage further?
Are we really having this thread again?
Can't we just agree to post links to previous incarnations of the same discussions and not engage further?
You've been here 4 years and have yet to realize that the cycle is endless?
You've been here 4 years and have yet to realize that the cycle is endless?Are we really having this thread again?
Can't we just agree to post links to previous incarnations of the same discussions and not engage further?
Ah the Cycle.
Makes me want to play Dissidia Duodecim again.
You've been here 4 years and have yet to realize that the cycle is endless?Are we really having this thread again?
Can't we just agree to post links to previous incarnations of the same discussions and not engage further?
i already know the cycle is endless
we always have every month the following topics in no particular order, but always monthly
*Paladins and finding means of making them lose their powers from a Catch 22 scenario
* Complaints Rogues
* Complaints about Monks
* Complaints about Summoners
* Complaints about Arcanists (a new Addition)
* Complaints about Fighters
* AM BARBARIAN
* Martial/Caster Disparity
* Complaints about Ninja
* Complaints about Gunslingers
* Complaints about Noncore Races; Especially Aasimaars
* Complaints about "Entitled" Players
* Complaints about Reskinning
The summoner has the ability to change the course of the fight as well with a spell or two. It can also contribute in the actual fighting afterwards rather than shifting the burden to the other party members. And a non-synth can do both at the same time.
If you make the fight so easy that your help is no longer needed, and you can twiddle your thumbs I don't see how that is being a burden.
Fighter Cleric and Bard: WTF sorcerer, you black tentacled those guys then empowered fireballed them, so now their numbers are down to 2 out of 5, and now all we have to do is pick them off with ranged attacks. Put that crossbow away and do your freaking job. <then they all facepalm out of frustration> <----I don't think that is ever going to happen.
I think we can chalk our disagreement up to play style differences. Even before I started playing in AP's I had GM's that put you in a situation where spamming spells just because you can might work against you if the day was going to a really long one. Even the summoner's spells combined with his summon's would be taxed if he went into "I must cast every round" mode, or if he tried to be a pseudo full caster which has been claimed above. Now if the groups are optimized, and in an AP as written then you can kill things fast enough that you will be much less likely to run out of resources especially at higher levels.
The summoner has the ability to change the course of the fight as well with a spell or two. It can also contribute in the actual fighting afterwards rather than shifting the burden to the other party members. And a non-synth can do both at the same time.
If you make the fight so easy that your help is no longer needed, and you can twiddle your thumbs I don't see how that is being a burden.
Fighter Cleric and Bard: WTF sorcerer, you black tentacled those guys then empowered fireballed them, so now their numbers are down to 2 out of 5, and now all we have to do is pick them off with ranged attacks. Put that crossbow away and do your freaking job. <then they all facepalm out of frustration> <----I don't think that is ever going to happen.
I think we can chalk our disagreement up to play style differences. Even before I started playing in AP's I had GM's that put you in a situation where spamming spells just because you can might work against you if the day was going to a really long one. Even the summoner's spells combined with his summon's would be taxed if he went into "I must cast every round" mode, or if he tried to be a pseudo full caster which has been claimed above. Now if the groups are optimized, and in an AP as written then you can kill things fast enough that you will be much less likely to run out of resources especially at higher levels.
this is where acid splash comes in, much more accurate than a crossbow bolt, and targets touch AC, and doesn't waste ammo
this is where acid splash comes in, much more accurate than a crossbow bolt, and targets touch AC, and doesn't waste ammoThe summoner has the ability to change the course of the fight as well with a spell or two. It can also contribute in the actual fighting afterwards rather than shifting the burden to the other party members. And a non-synth can do both at the same time.
If you make the fight so easy that your help is no longer needed, and you can twiddle your thumbs I don't see how that is being a burden.
Fighter Cleric and Bard: WTF sorcerer, you black tentacled those guys then empowered fireballed them, so now their numbers are down to 2 out of 5, and now all we have to do is pick them off with ranged attacks. Put that crossbow away and do your freaking job. <then they all facepalm out of frustration> <----I don't think that is ever going to happen.
I think we can chalk our disagreement up to play style differences. Even before I started playing in AP's I had GM's that put you in a situation where spamming spells just because you can might work against you if the day was going to a really long one. Even the summoner's spells combined with his summon's would be taxed if he went into "I must cast every round" mode, or if he tried to be a pseudo full caster which has been claimed above. Now if the groups are optimized, and in an AP as written then you can kill things fast enough that you will be much less likely to run out of resources especially at higher levels.
I know. I just wanted to make the point that your contributions can continue well beyond the round they started in. If my black tentacles are still squeezing people 2 rounds later, and the party is using that to pick them off safely the sorcerer has done his job.<--just an example. There are other ways to drop 1 or 2 spells and contribute to the fight without wasting spells.
Now if the sorcerer casts 2 spells, the party is still having trouble, and he decides to go to acid splash then he might need to cast more(non level 0) spells.
I think the problem is that you're assuming that those 1-2 spells will trivialize all fights. The sorc has no backup plan if those spells fail except to cast more spells. The summoner can cast the same 1-2 spells and has a very nice backup plan if those spells fail.
Black tentacles and empowered fireball fails due to enemy SR or good saves. Sorcerer twiddles thumb. Fighter, cleric, and bard screams "a little help here would be nice!". If summoner casts black tentacles and fails, then he simply rips apart his enemies with extreme prejudice.
Basically my original statement was that the sorc spends their spell slots much quicker than a summoner in the normal course of play so their greater number isn't as big an advantage as it seems except there is a level where there is a tipping point where the sorc has enough slots to cast for the entire adventuring day.
I am not assuming anything. I am just giving an example. The point is that many full casters get their party to "wipe up" stage, and conserve spells. It might take 3 spells, but the point does not change.
The problem is that you said "The sorcerer pretty much needs to cast a spell every round to be effective.", but that is not true at all. It is a false statement for sorcerers, wizards, druids, clerics, witches, and probably arcanist also. I simply countered it by saying how a sorcerer can be effective without casting every round, and not its not theory craft. No, I am not saying that every spell cast will overcome SR or will overcome every save. I am only saying that your statement is false. The pit spells can be cast in round one and basically end a fight, as an example.
Also there is a big difference between "You must cast spells every round", and "You expend slots quicker than class X so the extra spells may not mean as much".
You can spend more spells, and still not need to cast every round to be effective.
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Just going to leave these here so I don't have to retype them.
Why the summoner bugs me.
Summoners are not hiding behind their pets.
Yes summoners are monsters, and they have monsters.
Shared magic items are not a limit, nude eidolons destroy.
Several common myths that you will see regarding summoners.
- Myth: They are gimped casters. TRUTH: They have a cherry-picked selection of the strongest spells in the entire game at discounted spell levels. Most of those spells are achieved at a similar level to d6 classes like wizard and cleric, and since the don't require high save DCs the level of the spell is all but meaningless except in making metamagic rods cheaper.
- Myth: Without their eidolon they're nothing. TRUTH: They're Summonerzilla, capable of wearing armor and laying down a pile of smack.
- Myth: Their eidolon is subject to protection from spells. TRUTH: Eidolons don't give a crap about protection from spells, and neither do the ranged attacks or SLAs of their other minions.
- Myth: Summoners have less casting potential per day than real casters. TRUTH: That's true right up until you remember they have a wildly buffed summon monster / gate SLA that they can use X + Charisma mod times per day which scales with their level at the rate of a full caster. By comparison, this is essentially having 5-13 uses of one of the most versatile spells in the game, pseudo-hasted, silent, stilled, and cannot be countered, with the addition of 10 times the usual duration. Then you have their actual spell slots.
- Myth: The summoner's body-slot connection to their eidolon is a big drawback. TRUTH: The eidolon doesn't need those magic items and is capable of being awesome without them. Even then, there are many body slots to put magic items on and the eidolon can craft its own shwag at 75% market value and just drop his item effects in slots that the summoner doesn't care about.
- Myth: The summoner doesn't have many class skills/skill points. TRUTH: The summoner has 2 + Int mod plus an additional 4 points on his eidolon (who can cherry pick class skills). Additionally the summoner and his eidolon can both get massive racial modifiers to any skill they desire, often on demand, and can swap them out later.
- Myth: The eidolon is easily defeated at early levels by DR/magic and later levels by DR/material. TRUTH: The eidolon qualifies for Arcane Strike which not only adds a nice scaling damage bonus to all of its attacks but makes all of its attacks (whether natural or weapon) magical. Material DR is cheap. A 1 point evolution makes all your attacks aligned for piercing DR at the level it's relevant.
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And, to claim they get "all the good ones" is subjective rubbish that doesn't color the class at all. Since the ones you quoted are "winners" then these are "losers" and casters who take them clearly aren't "winners," right? It's a brand of b~#*##~& I don't buy into.???
I'm sorry if you got that jive from my post. I don't believe I stated that any spell other than the ones I quoted are "losers" and that casters who take them aren't "winners". I'm sorry that my terminology irked you. Please consider all instances of "winners" to be "highly effective full caster staples that are extremely good for their spell slot that many successful full casters happen to know and use frequently." I said that it doesn't get a lot of obscure spells because it's a class that came out later and it's spell list doesn't get updated frequently. That doesn't mean obscure spells are bad or that staple spells are the only spells that should be used.
So thanks for not buying into something I didnt say?
The only thing I've been trying to communicate is that the spells the Summoner does get are incredibly powerful full caster staples.
It doesn't get them all. It gets enough that it's clearly unbalanced for a 6th level caster.
The subtle irony there is that the vast majority of that list in fact was composed of utter crap and some of them (like Gate) the Summoner gets anyway. That's not even counting the spells he has access to because of summons/binding/gating.
Also while we're at it, gate costs 10,000 gp. At the time anyone is going to be casting that spell, that's less than your share of gold from a single encounter on the slow XP track. For less than 1 encounters worth of loot, you can get a major outsider (such as a pit fiend or planetar) to be your minion for nearly a month. Given that you now have a divine being that casts 8th level cleric spells, or a pit fiend's SLAs for the rest of the adventure, I'm sure you can recoup your "losses". By donning a headband of intelligence +2 and casting evolution surge you can fake your class and activate a karma prayer bead and gate in a Solar for 25 days or so.
Eidolons' (and summoners') saves are pretty bad without gear, though. Even with Greater Heroism. That's basically the only reason the shared item slots are a pain in the ass.
Sorcerers are still more powerful, but they do have to resort to some cheapass tactics to win the fight.
But, yeah... Summoners are very unbalanced and poorly written. A revised spell list, reduced duration of Summon Monster SLA and removal of spells such as Greater Evolution Surge would be nice...
Eidolons' (and summoners') saves are pretty bad without gear, though. Even with Greater Heroism. That's basically the only reason the shared item slots are a pain in the ass.
I've done this math. The Bidped Eidolon still has better saves than the fighter with some summoner buffs.
That's not a good place to be, Fighter saves are terrible.Eidolons' (and summoners') saves are pretty bad without gear, though. Even with Greater Heroism. That's basically the only reason the shared item slots are a pain in the ass.I've done this math. The Bidped Eidolon still has better saves than the fighter with some summoner buffs.
True, but you can't dismiss a dominated fighter.
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I'm kinda surprised that nobody has posted a level 5 martial so far. Level 5 should be easy to slap together.
In my experience, a level 5 fighter, barbarian, paladin, or ranger usually has about 40-50 HP, AC 18-22, and does 1 attack for about 20-30 average damage. Barbs are higher on the HP and damage, but lower on the AC. S&B is higher on the AC and lower on the damage. Paladins vs their smite targets do a little better.
Those numbers are nowhere near as effective as a synth of the same level. Which is a shame since classes that are supposed to be good at fighting should be better at fighting than a class where fighting is only about half of what they can do.
That's the real issue with the Summoner; he can do the things everyone else can do, generally as well or better than they can do them. Whether the role is skill-monkey, tank, dpr, controller, or buffer, the Summoner has it covered, generally all within the same build. And unlike most other classes, his buffing is usually immediately utilized by himself. Not only does he get haste earlier than every other caster, but then he, via his eidolon, is also the first one to turn around and take advantage of the extra attack and other bonuses. It's a class that's generall going to upset the other players at the table by making it very clear that they are not needed.
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I can't imagine a bigger waste of time than adversarial analysis of Pathfinder.
PvP tells you basically nothing about how the game plays in a campaign setting.
That's the real issue with the Summoner; he can do the things everyone else can do, generally as well or better than they can do them. Whether the role is skill-monkey, tank, dpr, controller, or buffer, the Summoner has it covered, generally all within the same build. And unlike most other classes, his buffing is usually immediately utilized by himself. Not only does he get haste earlier than every other caster, but then he, via his eidolon, is also the first one to turn around and take advantage of the extra attack and other bonuses. It's a class that's generall going to upset the other players at the table by making it very clear that they are not needed.
I would be interested in seeing the build where the summoner can cover all of that. Please make it PFS legal, since that is where my experience is.
Haste really shouldn't be a problem as the number of targets scales with level. There is also the fact that it is probably best used on other party members, making the melee people that much more awesome. Using it selfishly is just as bad as the person with an animal companion that blocks other people out of combat. Don't be a jerk, blocking others from participating.
I'm no expert at melee builds so I will not be going there.
If I were inclined to attack a set of summoners, I would probably take a pair of switch hitter rangers, a cleric of some type, and a wizard or arcanist. Substitute in paladins for the rangers if the summoners are evil. Exact tactics would depend on type of eidolons, race of summoners, and situation.
Just to point out level 6 is a break point for martial, not level 5 (which is probably why 5 is being selected).I'm kinda surprised that nobody has posted a level 5 martial so far. Level 5 should be easy to slap together.
In my experience, a level 5 fighter, barbarian, paladin, or ranger usually has about 40-50 HP, AC 18-22, and does 1 attack for about 20-30 average damage. Barbs are higher on the HP and damage, but lower on the AC. S&B is higher on the AC and lower on the damage. Paladins vs their smite targets do a little better.
Those numbers are nowhere near as effective as a synth of the same level. Which is a shame since classes that are supposed to be good at fighting should be better at fighting than a class where fighting is only about half of what they can do.
OK, put together a level 6 martial that beats the level 5 eidolon.
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Design Manager
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I would be interested in seeing the build where the summoner can cover all of that. Please make it PFS legal, since that is where my experience is.
Haste really shouldn't be a problem as the number of targets scales with level. There is also the fact that it is probably best used on other party members, making the melee people that much more awesome.
Except he's already got the best melee guy on the field, and it's generally the first one to get to take advantage of those buffs. His class feature can drop more damage at many levels than even a Fighter or Barbarian, particularly the PFS levels.
Using it selfishly is just as bad as the person with an animal companion that blocks other people out of combat. Don't be a jerk, blocking others from participating.
Animal companions don't have near the power of the eidolon, nor does the druid have the same power synergy in his low level spells. A 1st level summoner can cast enlarge person on his eidolon for a large pet. Druid pets generally don't hit large size until around 7th level, and won't have near the number of attacks options available.
I'm no expert at melee builds so I will not be going there.
Then how can you possibly have a conversation about the power of a summoner and his eidolon if you don't know about 1/2 the factors involved?
If I were inclined to attack a set of summoners, I would probably take a pair of switch hitter rangers, a cleric of some type, and a wizard or arcanist. Substitute in paladins for the rangers if the summoners are evil. Exact tactics would depend on type of eidolons, race of summoners, and situation.
When you say "a set" do you mean two Summoners and two eidolons? Because that would be the appropriate block to deal with them, and that alone should highlight the problem. If you're using 4 core classes, two of them full casters, to deal with 2 base class characters, the imbalance should be pretty plain to see. That being said "who beats who in a fight" is a completely different question than "who is more disruptive or imbalanced to a table trying to play a real game instead of structured and controlled arena sims".
A 1st level summoner can cast enlarge person on his eidolon for a large pet.
They can, but it is a 1 round casting time and a 1 minute duration.
I do use this for my mounted summoner, but MAN it is a PAIN. Almost not worth it, especially since it makes the eidolon easier to hit without a commensurate natural armor or HP boost.
This is mostly a style choice, for which you pay a hefty premium.