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if take the situation that we were given both of them start in a arena 100 ft apart. leaving the arena counts as surrender whether you fly out, walk out, or teleport out, you have surrendered by fleeing. everything the wizard is doing the monk can do. and neither a evoker or enchanter really work well against your high saves with evasion monk.
Anyone willing to submit builds and tactics? I'll host a tournament if required.
Honestly can't conceive of a level 18 wizard without a demiplane.
If you take a typical enchanter or evoked your ingnoring the bit where the wizard is supposed to be optimised to kill tetori monks.
I don't see how teleporting out is losing, the monk failed to kill the wizard and the wizard can still easily find the monk and take him by surprise at a later time. Not that they would need to leave.
Agreed, the win condition for this fight is permanent death (in the sense that you have no condition for which you will be alive again without the intervention of some other being).
This is very hard for a tetori to accomplish. At least in the sense that the tetori would basically need to resort to UMD and steal the wizards tricks.
The real question is why isn't the wizard on his own private permanent demiplane using astral projection with clones as backups in the demiplane as well as in other locations.
The wizard wins if the monk isn't allowed to UMD magical items because he can never match that level of control over the universe the wizard has.
Maybe the monk gets lucky and kills the wizard once. Then the wizard is back in his clone body and pissed off. And he's much better at preparing to kill the monk than vice versa. And lets not ignore that the wizard could just be using planar binding to summon a host of enemies to attack the monk with. Sure, the monk might be able to kill 1 a round. But what can he do if the wizard sends 10 against him? The monk will die from the multitude of attacks.
The only way for the monk to win is to setup so many restrictions against the wizard by tying his hands and saying "You can't use those tricks". The tetori has essentially 1 trick. The wizard has a nearly limitless arsenal of tricks.
Hell, without UMD or magical items the tetori can't even get to the flying wizard.
Anyone willing to submit builds and tactics? I'll host a tournament if required.
To what end?
Though potentially fun, it would ultimately be a waste of time and wouldn't be determinant of anything.
Anyone willing to submit builds and tactics? I'll host a tournament if required.To what end?
Though potentially fun, it would ultimately be a waste of time and wouldn't be determinant of anything.
Honestly, only for the fun of it.
The wizard can summon a succubus via planar binding and hide in a force sphere. The monk can grapple the succubus, and gain all the negative levels he wants.or the monk makes the very easy will save while he waits for the force sphere to run out. and then kills the succubi in a round or two
The will save is only to remove the negative level without magic after 24 hours. There is no save to avoid it.
The will save is only to remove the negative level without magic after 24 hours. There is no save to avoid it.The wizard can summon a succubus via planar binding and hide in a force sphere. The monk can grapple the succubus, and gain all the negative levels he wants.or the monk makes the very easy will save while he waits for the force sphere to run out. and then kills the succubi in a round or two
For that matter, if the wizard can hit the monk a few rounds of maximized enervation will end the fight trivially. Which can be made pretty easy by using a wand of true strike. Of course I'm assuming the wizard creates a situation by which the tetori can't reach him to actually mount an offense.
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there is absolutley no situation in which the wizard can escape the monk and still attack the monk.
Improved Invisibility + Mind Blank = Anti-True Seeing
Project Image = casting via proxy
And if the Tetori manages to penetrate all the Wizard defenses, a Sylph wizard has Windy Escape to nullify that attack (specifically the grab or grapple attempt).
I mean, I'm pro-martial and pro-tetori, but I can't figure out how the Tetori wins an arena battle against a wizard specifically built to stomp the Tetori.
there is absolutley no situation in which the wizard can escape the monk and still attack the monk. but agian a scroll or two of deathward is an easy option.
Repulsion?
Possession (no LOS or LOE required) from inside a force/prismatic sphere.
Wait, what's stopping the monk from taking dimensional agility and then just abundant stepping next to the wizard before casting Anti-Magic Field or Just Freaking Grabbing Him?
I mean, any wizard player sitting down to a tournament setting like this is going to demand multiple buff turns (at least one) before combat because otherwise it 'wouldn't properly represent what my wizard would have running all the time.' Your last buff can be an AMF...
...delivered from right next to the wizard. You haven't technically broken any rules, and have hoist them on their own petard.
Wait, what's stopping the monk from taking dimensional agility and then just abundant stepping next to the wizard before casting Anti-Magic Field or Just Freaking Grabbing Him?
I mean, any wizard player sitting down to a tournament setting like this is going to demand multiple buff turns (at least one) before combat because otherwise it 'wouldn't properly represent what my wizard would have running all the time.' Your last buff can be an AMF...
...delivered from right next to the wizard. You haven't technically broken any rules, and have hoist them on their own petard.
Tetori trades away abundant step.
But otherwise: Time Stop, Dimensional Lock, Resilient Sphere, spam Possession effects until one works.
I mean the first reason is compelling enough. I forgot that.
there is absolutley no situation in which the wizard can escape the monk and still attack the monk. but agian a scroll or two of deathward is an easy option.
Who cares if the wizard can escape the monk but can't attack him.
And by the way there is at least one situation that works exactly that way, which is astral projection. The wizard can be anywhere else and project himself onto the material plane and destroy you with virtually no risk. Not to mention just binding a crap ton of stuff to kill you.
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For record, this is why Bruno, a handsome and beautiful Tetori, went out of way to protect babymuscle wizards when we all younger and less experienced...because one day wizard would have mighty muscles of magic and protect Bruno.
Bruno learn the best thing you could ever grapple is friendship.
there is absolutley no situation in which the wizard can escape the monk and still attack the monk. but agian a scroll or two of deathward is an easy option.
There are spells that don't require line of effect. Possession, Magic Jar, Create Mindscape.
A spell perfected heightened persisted possesion will be a hard save to make, even for a monk. It does not require line of effect or line of sight and if the monk makes the save it can be spammed until the monk fails, from inside an adamantine box if necessary.
But as Bruno says, it's better to be friends. Sure wizards can nuke, but they are better off buffing and helping/letting others win the fight.
Wouldn't a fully optimized tetori have such a high saving throw that he could overcome the wizard? If not at least seriously threaten him?
Wouldn't a fully optimized tetori have such a high saving throw that he could overcome the wizard?
No. As was said earlier, "Time Stop, Dimensional Lock, Resilient Sphere, spam Possession effects until one works." The wizard simply has too many clubs in her bag.
Wouldn't a fully optimized tetori have such a high saving throw that he could overcome the wizard?No. As was said earlier, "Time Stop, Dimensional Lock, Resilient Sphere, spam Possession effects until one works." The wizard simply has too many clubs in her bag.
Sounds like they need to either nerf the wizard or buff the tetori.
More that high level PF needs to be entirely redone. Wizards are the most obvious case, but about any full caster is overpowered compared to a non-caster at 18th level.
More that high level PF needs to be entirely redone. Wizards are the most obvious case, but about any full caster is overpowered compared to a non-caster at 18th level.
Well spells more specifically. Its more spells then wizard even though their hand and hand. weaker spells would be the best way IMO. I think spells being nerfed would be the best way.
I will say To be fair a lot of higher level spells are weaker in PF then they were in 3.5
I think the way the tetori wins if the arena is small (20x20 or smaller) and the tetori has an antimagic field cast on him.
Otherwise, I can't see him winning.
That is a good point. If the fight was in a 20X20 arena (or a phone booth) I guess our Tetori could actually win?
Without the antimagic field?
Even in a confined space, the wizard who has prepared for the fight can probably still produce something along the lines of "Contingency spell that creates a magic barrier of some kind between them" and then turn that into a win. (Or win initiative and cast Time Stop, or whatever.)