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My understanding of Attacks of Opportunity had always been that they essentially "recharge" at the beginning of a character's turn. Example:
PCs are 1, 2, and 3
Enemies are A, B, and C
Initiative scores fall as:
PC 1 = 20
PC 2 = 16
Enemy A = 15
Enemy B = 14
PC 3 = 10
Enemy C = 2
During the first round, PCs 1 and 2 move into melee with A and B. A and B hit PC 2 really hard (let's assume he's a rogue or something), and now PC 2 wants to back off on his next turn.
PC 3 wants to get into a flank, but doesn't have enough movement to go "around", so he moves through threatened space and provokes an attack from all three enemies. C can't because he's still flat-footed, but A and B take their attacks.
C goes, and now all three enemies are engaged in melee (somehow) with all three players.
End of round
Round two: PC 1 attacks, PC 2 disengages. Because of bad positioning, even if he withdraws he provokes from Enemies A and C.
Enemy A took an attack of opportunity last round (and it hasn't been his turn again yet). Does he get to take an attack, since it's a new round?
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I've been reading through the rules on AoOs again (since I've been building a character who may be both provoking and using a lot of AoOs eventually), and I'm finding the following wording:
"An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round."
"If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round."
I don't see anything about AoOs connecting to characters' turns during a round. Instead, it looks like AoOs are reset at the top of each round (essentially at initiative count 'infinity'). Does that understanding seem correct?
I believe it is on the round as the rules say. AAO's can happen at anytime in a round, so it doesn't really make sense to have them reset on a turn (or they both make almost equal sense).
Take for example the first normal round of combat. Say player A is in the middle of the initiative order and AAO's reset on a turn. Its possible that he or she could make up to twice as many AAO's as allowed if the first half happened before and the last half happened after their turn in the round.
If AAO's reset on the round you don't have this problem. That being said after the players turn comes up for the first time the odd scenario above can't really happen again (as the player is getting his number of AAO's a round as normal, but the reset is offset).
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I believe it is on the round as the rules say. AAO's can happen at anytime in a round, so it doesn't really make sense to have them reset on a turn (or they both make almost equal sense).
Take for example the first normal round of combat. Say player A is in the middle of the initiative order and AAO's reset on a turn. Its possible that he or she could make up to twice as many AAO's as allowed if the first half happened before and the last half happened after their turn in the round.
If AAO's reset on the round you don't have this problem. That being said after the players turn comes up for the first time the odd scenario above can't really happen again (as the player is getting his number of AAO's a round as normal, but the reset is offset).
AoO have to reset on a player's turn, otherwise you can exceed the number of AoO you are allowed to take outside of your turn.
If AoO reset for everybody at the start of a new round, a character who has already made its AoO at the end of the previous round can make a new AoO when the round resets, even if this is before its actual turn. Without Combat Reflexes, you can't make more than one AoO. But here, we would frequently be having multiple AoO being made during the time between a player's turn.
If AoO reset when a player's turn starts (meaning they last for a round from initiative count to initiative count), you cannot have this problem. Whether an AoO is provoked at the end of a round after the character's turn or at the beginning of a round before a character's turn, you still only get the same amount of AoO. If you use your AoO before the top of the round, you don't have another to use in the event another AoO is provoked.
While the wording is unfortunate, it seems pretty clear that the intended use of round in the "Making an AoO" section is this one:
When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
AoO reset on each respective character's turn.
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Further to that, in 3.5 the wording for AoO was 'one per round', but the original 3.0 wording was 'one per turn'.
Along with the notes that the game engine itself did not change between 3.0 and 3.5, this clarifies that it re-sets for each individual at the start of each of his turns, following the normal definition of 'rounds' as individual to each creature unless stated otherwise.
AoO have to reset on a player's turn, otherwise you can exceed the number of AoO you are allowed to take outside of your turn.
If AoO reset for everybody at the start of a new round, a character who has already made its AoO at the end of the previous round can make a new AoO when the round resets, even if this is before its actual turn. Without Combat Reflexes, you can't make more than one AoO. But here, we would frequently be having multiple AoO being made during the time between a player's turn.
If AoO reset when a player's turn starts (meaning they last for a round from initiative count to initiative count), you cannot have this problem. Whether an AoO is provoked at the end of a round after the character's turn or at the beginning of a round before a character's turn, you still only get the same amount of AoO. If you use your AoO before the top of the round, you don't have another to use in the event another AoO is provoked.
While the wording is unfortunate, it seems pretty clear that the intended use of round in the "Making an AoO" section is this one:
When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count...
First in the AAO rules it says characters normally get one a round. It doesnt say anything about outside of their turn. If you have it reset on their turn they can get multiple the first round, which only including the AAO wording breaks the rules.
Second that quote from combat is spot on! Good find! I would have to agree based on that.
First in the AAO rules it says characters normally get one a round. It doesnt say anything about outside of their turn. If you have it reset on their turn they can get multiple the first round, which only including the AAO wording breaks the rules.
Second that quote from combat is spot on! Good find! I would have to agree based on that.
They won't be making any AOOs in the first round before their turn, because they'll be flatfooted and therefore unable to do so.
Sounds like I'll probably continue with my previous understanding; that available AoOs are returned at the start of a character's turn. It's what seems to make the most sense.
(It'd be more advantageous to me if it was "at any point during your turn" or "at the end of your turn", but that would be a bit silly. :P)
You have a limited number of AoO each round, not after your turn untill your next one. Meaning they reset at the start of the round and not their turn.
A round IS from initiative to initiative.
"When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count"
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Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
That includes things that last a single round. When a creature has its own round (and every creature in combat does have its own, personal round), then that round starts when its turn starts and ends just before its next turn starts. A creature's gets its complement of AoOs reset each 'round', as this is the round it means. Every single thing in the game which is based on what things a single creature can do in a round refer to this round.
As I posted earlier, the game engine itself did not change between editions 3.0, 3.5 or PF. The timing of when AoOs reset never changed in all that time.
In fact, there is no objective 'round'! A 'round' is only six seconds worth of stuff that a creature does, or something that actually happens in the game. If a trap re-sets at initiative count 20, then that trap has a personal round from 20 in one round to just before 20 in the next.
The number '20' here is not a real measure of time, but just a way for the game to decide which order the combatants go in. Each number in that initiative count as it counts down does not represent any actual unit of time in either the game world or the real world; it's just....administration.
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat (page 80), you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make between ACTIONS
It can say this, because each creature's 'round' is from the start if one of its actions to the start of the next one of its actions. It's worth noting that 3.0 sometimes referred to a creature's 'turn' as it's 'action'. If a 'round' was a construct that was independent of the creatures then the 'between actions' phrase would make no sense at all.
Remember what the PF combat chapter says about The Combat Round?
When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
Here's how the 3.5 PHB phrased it:-
For almost all purposes, there is no relevance to the end of a round or the beginning of a round. The term 'round' works like the word 'month'. A month can mean either a calendar month or a span of time from a day in one month to the same day in the next month. In the same way, a round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it USUALLY means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects which last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count they began on.
Reseting AoO's at the start of their turn means that they sometimes can make 2 AoO's some rounds. Ex: They execute one right before their turn, renew at their turn and make one more after in the same round. This is a problem since it makes damage-out-put less consistant, all of a sudden someone can take mortal damage without being able to act in time.
This isn't a real issue, because a creature cannot provoke an AoO except during it's own turn, so unless a creature is taking two turns a round, it isn't provoking at multiple initiative counts. (There are some feats and abilities that can generate AoO's on creatures outside of their turn, but that really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand).
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Reseting AoO's at the start of their turn means that they sometimes can make 2 AoO's some rounds. Ex: They execute one right before their turn, renew at their turn and make one more after in the same round. This is a problem since it makes damage-out-put less consistant, all of a sudden someone can take mortal damage without being able to act in time.
This problem will occure since provocation isn't consistent. One round nobody provoces an AoO and none was taken, your players saves their's untill their next turn. The next round multiple provocations could occure. Normaly they would get one AoO that round and be done while your players can act on two, as long as the provocations occures before and after their turn.
I don't see how this makes any difference. Let's look at a round.
*top of initiative*
X set of turns
*player's turn*
Y set of turns
You are describing a situation in which someone provokes during X turns, and then another person provokes during Y turns. If AoO reset at the top of initiative, the player does not get to take the AoO during Y. If AoO reset on the player's turn, player does get to take the AoO on Y. So this gives the player a extra AoO, right?
Well, look at the parallel situation. On the second pass through initiative, no one provokes during the X turns, but someone provokes during the Y turns, so player takes an AoO. Then on the third pass of initiative, someone does provoke during the X turns. If AoO resets at the top of initiative, the player does get that AoO (since their AoO have just reset) but if AoO reset on one's turn the player does not get the AoO. In this case, resetting at the top of initiative allows the "extra" AoO.
Really, there is no extra AoO. In both cases, you get one AoO per turn of the cycle. But when you measure the cycle from someplace other than your reset point you get cases that look weird.
The only round in which the reset point matters is the first one, where resetting on your turn results in a partial AoO cycle before your first turn. This is advantageous if you have Combat Reflexes and can take all your AoO during the partial cycle before your first turn, then more in the first normal cycle between your first and second turns. However, if you don't have Combat Reflexes it's better to reset at the top of initiative, because then your AoO in the "Y" part of the round count against the first cycle instead of the second.
This also changes the value of initiative.
A little. Mostly resetting AoO at one's turn makes high initiative better.
Characters with Combat Reflexes might find low initiative hurts a little less when they get more AoO our of their part-cycle. But for a character with no Combat Reflexes and low initiative, not only might you miss AoO while flat-footed, but if you take an AoO on someone with lower initiative than you it prevents you from making more AoO on high initiative folks before your next turn; if you reset at top of initiative, that AoO just makes up for the one you missed while sitting on your flat feet and you can hit the high initiative guys right away.
Which means that refreshing AoO at the top of the initiative adds a little extra danger to high initiative. Characters typically use their AoO on the first target to provoke. If AoO refresh at the top of initiative order, then characters with high initiative are more likely to provoke AoO while their enemies still have AoO to burn. If AoO refresh at the attacker's turn, characters are more likely to draw AoO from enemies acting shortly before them in a cyclical round.
So resetting on a character's turn is a small relative boost to Combat Reflexes, and makes high initiative riskier. Plus it's easier to keep track of how many AoO someone has taken since their own last turn than since the high init roller's last turn. So I like the effect resetting on your turn has on my game.
This isn't a real issue, because a creature cannot provoke an AoO except during it's own turn, so unless a creature is taking two turns a round, it isn't provoking at multiple initiative counts. (There are some feats and abilities that can generate AoO's on creatures outside of their turn, but that really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand).
Reseting AoO's at the start of their turn means that they sometimes can make 2 AoO's some rounds. Ex: They execute one right before their turn, renew at their turn and make one more after in the same round. This is a problem since it makes damage-out-put less consistant, all of a sudden someone can take mortal damage without being able to act in time.
Are you sure?
Please read what I actually said. (I'll redo the emphasis for you).
And again, it's still a non-issue regardless.
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I may be misreading some posts, but it seems some people are still arguing for AoO resetting at the top of the initiative order?
Not me. I was just presenting an overly long analysis of the functional differences between the two options. Because it's more fun than working. ;P
I think the citation from the Combat chapter settles where the rules intend the round to be counted (turn to turn).
I also think turn to turn counting has a better in-game effect: Combat Reflexes flat-footed AoO are a slightly nicer perk, high initiative characters don't soak all the AoO, and it's easier to keep track of how many AoO you have made.
