In case anyone is thinking what I'm thinking, if you want to play a class that is mobile and still effective all the time, play 4e. Or make your own game.
I listed off four Pathfinder classes and an archetype that are effective without standing still literally five posts before yours. I don't understand how the 4E fallacy even begins to apply here; you can already play an effective mobile character in Pathfinder, it's just that you can't do it with the class that specifically advertises itself as a mobile martial.
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4e applies because any class can be mobile at almost any time due to the lack of full attacking. And I am referring to the most basic of options, which is what I generally play. Besides, the only way I've played a Pounce build involves Dragon Style just to support one of its two obvious shortcomings, and one build also involved Janni Style and a MoMS dip.
Perhaps I was exaggerating when I said that (why am I saying perhaps? It's completely true that I was), and even I am curious as to why I did. Maybe I should plead Internet...?
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Swashbuckler can be mobile (ie pounce) via using unamed and pummeling style. Hamatulatsu (or the cestus/emei piercer if your gm allow them) convert unarmed strikes to piercing and thus allow all swashbuckler deeds to work with them. Pummeling Style + the free improved critical make panache regeneration equal a rapier, and thanks to flurry rules you can even attack multiple times to apply precise strike with two weapon fighting with a monk/brawler multiclass.
The main downsize is not having a dex to damage feat for light weapons, forcing you to be a whirling dervish, or rely on an agile amulet of mighty fists.
Deadly Agility from Dreamscarred Press allows Dex to Damage for any weapon that can be Weapon Finessed
True but Dreamscarred Press is one of the most trusted of 3rd Party, especially with their PoW and Psionics. It would not be hard to see it getting a pass at most tables.
there's also fencing grace for rapiers...
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Well... If anyone cares, here is a short list of personal house-rules for Swashbucklers...
So what would you change/add to swashbuckler that would get to where you want to be?
besides making it have a good fort save?
Let's see... Off the top of my head:
Better/Simpler Class Feature:
- Give them Weapon Finesse instead of "Swashbuckler Finesse". It would make things simpler and allow SBs to use a greater variety of weapons.
- Remove Precise Strike and give them Dex to damage for free at 3rd level or something.
- Splitting Evasive into an scaling class feature: get Uncanny Dodge at 3rd level, Evasion at 7th level and Improved Uncanny Dodge at 11th level. No Panache required. (It's more fun if the ability scales with the character, instead of getting it all out of nowhere. And there is really no reason for it to require Panache).
- Panache total is equal to 1 + Cha modifier (minimum 1). This way SBs with Cha 12 have an advantage over SBs with Cha 08.Good mobility:
- He could spend Panache to be able to move as a swift action Or... I don't know, if he hits someone, he can make an additional attack as a swift action. That way, if the character moves he's still a threat.Real bonuses to iconic skills (instead of the awful "spend 1 Panache for 1d6 and hope you don't roll a 1 or 2" thing):
-A Swashbuckler adds half his level to Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Escape Artist and Ride. By spending 1 point of panache he can double this bonus on his next skill check.
EDIT: Actually, the house-rule I use is that SBs can add their Cha modifier to all Dex-based skill checks (except Stealth) and they can spend 1 Panache to add a bonus equal to their SB level to their next Dex or Cha-based skill check (except Stealth and UMD)
- Maybe add Cha to Initiative instead of the boring static number.Decent saves
- Good Fort (as you already mentioned)
- Remove Charmed Life (which conflicts with his other abilities, since they require swift actions) and replace it with a feat that allows the character to use Cha instead of Wis on will saves (and remove the 2~3 options that do that in pointlessly situational and restrictive ways).
I actually prefer Swashbuckler Finesse to simply adding Weapon Finesse, it opens up a lot of weapons that are otherwise unavailable for dexterity-based fighters.
Precise Strike scales better than "ability score to damage" specifically to make up for the downsides of fighting with a 1h and buckler - extra attacks offered by TWF or extra reach and damage modifiers on THF. Near as I can tell, replacing Precise Strike with dex to damage would mean that the swashbuckler's damage output would lag significantly in the mid and late-game since the gap between 1h and 2h/twf grows higher as the modifiers go up.
I wouldn't mind a good fort save, or simply have them add charisma to saves akin to Divine Grace.
Swashbuckler Finesse opens up a lot of weapons... And closes a lot of iconic ones.
I don't like depending on precision damage. I don't mind having lower damage output. I don't think it'd be too bad, either... They do get Weapon Training and Improved Critical, after all...
That really means nothing when you are still awful if you move and Swashbuckler is just like any other martial without Pounce or similar ability.Nothing in derring do lets them be a mobile fighter :(Bonuses to Acrobatics checks help you be a mobile fighter.I am sorry explain how the Swashbuckler is awful if you move? Are you meaning because then it can't full attack? I think that just means your more inclined to want to play the fighter with the giant great sword that no human could possibly wield swinging with an insanely high str. That is not the only way to fight in D&D or PF in this case.
You kind of sound like those guys of Gamers the Dorkness Rising when the girl shows up with the crit fisher fighter.
The Swashbuckler is a "mobile combatant" the same way the Monk is in that both get some bonuses to movement, yet should never do so if possible as full attacking is just what martials do whether you are a fighter with a massive great sword or a lithe crit fisher with a rapier.
Moving is bad for you. BAD. Less attacks is never a good thing, especially for a crit fisher as more fishing = more crits (as a side note, Swashbucklers are horrible crit fishers as most of their damage does not multiple on a crit). The only way it is not bad is if you have some way to mitigate the damage caused to your attack rountine, such as through pounce or some sort of psuedo-pounce effect like the Dervish of Dawn Fighter or Pummeling Style.
That's the paradox. The class is supposed to be mobile, but in actuality isn't as it suffers from all the same problems as most other martials. Running around the battlefield trying to be cool with acrobatics highly reduces your effectiveness.
Ironically, Fighters with huge ass greatswords are now more mobile than the Swashbuckler; the advent of the Titan Fighter allows you to run a fairly effective Vital Strike build (granted, that's Titan Fighter 1/Something Else X since everything else about the archetype is awful but still) and avoid reliance on the full attack.
The Swashbuckler is a "mobile combatant" the same way the Monk is in that both get some bonuses to movement, yet should never do so if possible as full attacking is just what martials do whether you are a fighter with a massive great sword or a lithe crit fisher with a rapier.
Moving is bad for you. BAD. Less attacks is never a good thing, especially for a crit fisher as more fishing = more crits (as a side note, Swashbucklers are horrible crit fishers as most of their damage does not multiple on a crit). The only way it is not bad is if you have some way to mitigate the damage caused to your attack rountine, such as through pounce or some sort of psuedo-pounce effect like the Dervish of Dawn Fighter or Pummeling Style.
That's the paradox. The class is supposed to be mobile, but in actuality isn't as it suffers from all the same problems as most other martials. Running around the battlefield trying to be cool with acrobatics highly reduces your effectiveness.
I'm just confused why you consider "disengaging from the enemy" to be an iconic swashbuckler move. I don't ever remember seeing a swashbuckler movie where the hero runs up, tries to stab someone once, then runs around the room a bit, comes in for one more thrust, disengages again for more prancing, comes back for one more swing, etc.
The movies I've seen usually have duel scenes which involve lengthy rapier fights, in which the hero and villain remain engaged. Does the hero dodge away from some attacks? Yes, that's Dodging Panache. Does the hero find creative ways to move into position where he can attack? Yes, that's Swashbucklers Grace. But does he run away after making a thrust, just to run back again a few seconds later? Not that I can recall.
Perhaps if you posted a clip of this non-full-attack, disengage/reengage fighting style, I would have a better idea what you expect out of the class?
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Ironically, Fighters with huge ass greatswords are now more mobile than the Swashbuckler; the advent of the Titan Fighter allows you to run a fairly effective Vital Strike build (granted, that's Titan Fighter 1/Something Else X since everything else about the archetype is awful but still) and avoid reliance on the full attack.
A standard Warpriest (of a deity like Gorum or Ragathiel) can do pretty decently with Vital Strike + Weapon of the Chosen + Divine Favor. Nothing really on the level of a well-made Druid, but it's an option.
I don't see anything in his post about disengaging. Could you quote it?
I don't see anything in his post about disengaging. Could you quote it?
It's been brought up several times that having to stand and full-attack is un-swashbucklerlike. If one does not continue to attack after striking, what else is there to do but disengage?
Apart from the traditional reliance on full attacks (which is an issue for most martials) which clashes with the implied focus on mobility
and are not mobile, requiring the same full attack paradigm as everyone else.
Is the intended flavor of a swashbuckler to stand still and full attack? If so, nailed it.
They can stand still and full attack just fine, but little more than that... I expected more from a class named "Swashbuckler".
The class is supposed to be mobile, but in actuality isn't as it suffers from all the same problems as most other martials.
Why would a swashbuckler NOT full-attack? If his enemy is standing right there, what else is he going to do?
Why would a swashbuckler NOT full-attack? If his enemy is standing right there, what else is he going to do?
Exactly.
Or, a better way to put it. "What do you do when the enemy is not standing right there next to you?".
The answer is "move 10ft or more and lose most of your effectiveness".
You aren't answering the question - how is it iconic to be equally effective at range than when engaged? Which movie does the swashbuckler run up and one-shot the villain without a fight??
(Also, "lose most of your effectiveness" is not correct unless you're level 11+ or affected by magic like Haste.)
I don't see anything in his post about disengaging. Could you quote it?It's been brought up several times that having to stand and full-attack is un-swashbucklerlike. If one does not continue to attack after striking, what else is there to do but disengage?
Apart from the traditional reliance on full attacks (which is an issue for most martials) which clashes with the implied focus on mobilityand are not mobile, requiring the same full attack paradigm as everyone else.Is the intended flavor of a swashbuckler to stand still and full attack? If so, nailed it.They can stand still and full attack just fine, but little more than that... I expected more from a class named "Swashbuckler".The class is supposed to be mobile, but in actuality isn't as it suffers from all the same problems as most other martials.Why would a swashbuckler NOT full-attack? If his enemy is standing right there, what else is he going to do?
I will answer that when I get home but it is bad practice to quote what was not said. It is better to ask " are you assuming the swashbucker is disengaging and if so why.
Paizo ate my other post so I will give the short version. Using acrobatics at full speed is not a great thing. It would be better to have an increased movement speed to actually make mobility better and offset the half speed of acrobatics. Also a rising bonus to acrobatics at least while tumbling so that when you come across CR 10 higher monsters with high CMD's you have a decent chance to get past them.
You didn't actually see them dancing on the rails during a duel
Derring-Do.
running circles around goons?
Dodging Panache.
The part I'm struggling with is, the iconic swashbucklers do all these things SO THEY CAN CONTINUE TO FULL-ATTACK. Saying that it is uncharacteristic to be dependent on full-attacks seems bizarre to me.
I mean, they are the only class that can circle around the enemy while still full-attacking (Dodging Panache + 5-foot step.)
I'm still just very curious, could someone link to an iconic swashbuckler scene where the hero does something that PF doesn't allow?
Well... If anyone cares, here is a short list of personal house-rules for Swashbucklers...
...So what would you change/add to swashbuckler that would get to where you want to be?
besides making it have a good fort save?
Let's see... Off the top of my head:
Better/Simpler Class Feature:
- Give them Weapon Finesse instead of "Swashbuckler Finesse". It would make things simpler and allow SBs to use a greater variety of weapons.
- Remove Precise Strike and give them Dex to damage for free at 3rd level or something.
- Splitting Evasive into an scaling class feature: get Uncanny Dodge at 3rd level, Evasion at 7th level and Improved Uncanny Dodge at 11th level. No Panache required. (It's more fun if the ability scales with the character, instead of getting it all out of nowhere. And there is really no reason for it to require Panache).
- Panache total is equal to 1 + Cha modifier (minimum 1). This way SBs with Cha 12 have an advantage over SBs with Cha 08.Good mobility:
- He could spend Panache to be able to move as a swift action Or... I don't know, if he hits someone, he can make an additional attack as a swift action. That way, if the character moves he's still a threat.Real bonuses to iconic skills (instead of the awful "spend 1 Panache for 1d6 and hope you don't roll a 1 or 2" thing):
-A Swashbuckler adds half his level to Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Escape Artist and Ride. By spending 1 point of panache he can double this bonus on his next skill check.
EDIT: Actually, the house-rule I use is that SBs can add their Cha modifier to all Dex-based skill checks (except Stealth) and they can spend 1 Panache to add a bonus equal to their SB level to their next Dex or Cha-based skill check (except Stealth and UMD)
- Maybe add Cha to Initiative instead of the boring static number.Decent saves
- Good Fort (as you already mentioned)
- Remove Charmed Life (which conflicts with his other abilities,
One of my Ideas for helping the swashbuckler was to drop their early improved critical and just give them pounce while wielding a one-handed weapon.
But I never really looked into a good overhaul of the class.
One point I can't believe I haven't made yet: Swashbucklers are one of the only classes that can get extra attacks for moving. By moving and provoking, then parrying and riposting, and using their attack afterward, they both get an extra attack during their move action, and can attack multiple foes in the same turn.
I can't speak for others, but things like the Whirlwind Dance deed of the Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler from Advanced Class Origins is more what I had in mind. Being able to dash through a chaotic fight scene, attacking in half a dozen places at once. The fact that the ability to attack rapidly against multiple opponents while moving around the battlefield, the thing I consider the ICONIC trait of a swashbuckler, is a deed only possessed by one archetype, and a more setting-specific archetype than the baseline Swashbuckler and the ACG archetypes at that, troubles me.
Ok, I think I'm finally getting it - attacking 3+ enemies during a move is the "mobile fighter" ability that the swashbuckler lacks.
As you mention, there is a swash archetype that gets that ability. Moreover, the fact that swashbucklers are one of the only classes that can attack during a move action (by provoking, parrying, and riposting) means they are still better than other classes at attacking on the move.
I will opine that obviously lunging and other forms of reach-enhancement are in keeping with the tune of the Swashbuckler as our fencing champion, but speaking as a fencer, you are misrepresenting the sport if you consider it a game of limited mobility. Footwork and positioning are EVERYTHING to a fencer
Footwork and positioning is the whole idea behind Dodging Panache.
and if you fence you had better know a thing or two about how to strike at your opponent and then retreat or pursue an opponent who flees from you at some speed. And that's sport-fencing, on a narrow strip with rules that cease the action after a single touch is landed. We're not talking about sport-fencers here, we're talking about a guy who's Flynning it up on a chaotic battlefield. I honestly feel like Jabbing Style translated into sword techniques would have been closer to what some people imagine a SWASHBUCKLER doing with their sword, darting around and striking from multiple sides. Similarly, some representation of maneuvers like the Flèche, suddenly closing your distance with the opponent, striking hard, and disengaging, would have been nice. Spring Attack and Lunge aren't really cutting it for making a character feel like a fencer to me.
A fleche, as I understand it, is a single lunging attack, initiated from close range, after which you move past the opponent. That is just standard action attack (or use Blue Scarf Swordmaster's Flair or Lunge if you need the range) and then Acrobatics away with your move.
Also, c'mon, disarm is one of the signature moves of swashbuckling, and it doesn't get ANY class features that make it good at disarming others? That one's a no-brainer.
They get a class ability that makes it easier to qualify for Improved Disarm, they get weapon training which is a class feature that makes it easier to disarm people, they have full BAB, and they also get Targeted Strike which lets you disarm someone without even rolling a CMB check.
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Moreover, the fact that swashbucklers are one of the only classes that can attack during a move action (by provoking, parrying, and riposting) means they are still better than other classes at attacking on the move.
You mean anyone with Snake Style?
Please keep in mind that all the things you describe the Swashbuckler as being able to do all require it's swift/immediate action of which you get 1 per turn.
You parried and riposted? Good luck making that fortitude save or succeeding that acrobatics check.
Swashbucklers run into the same problem Rogues do at any play above 6th level. Eventually a stray fortitude or will save snipes them. Daring to use any of the fancy kit the Swashbuckler gets from Deeds is mitigated by the ever increasing danger of Fortitude and Will saves. So most folks end up saving their swift/immediate for Charmed Life. This is a pretty big issue since the Swashbuckler is essentially supposed to take the position of primary combatant for most parties and yet it can't go toe to toe with most creatures. Creatures with rider effects on it's attacks, auras or spell-like abilities can easily shut down a Swashbuckler unlike most other martials. Additionally it has little ways to deal with such issues because of it's reliance of getting adjacent to targets to use any of it's abilities.
So when people say that the Swashbuckler is actually kind of bad, this is generally what they mean. You're far better off served by the Daring Champion Cavalier since a good Fortitude save is about ten times more meaningful for a frontline combatant than a good Reflex is.
You mean anyone with Snake Style?
That's a level 9 feat unless you take MoMS or something to get it early. Compared to swashbucklers, who can do it at level 1 with no investment.
Please keep in mind that all the things you describe the Swashbuckler as being able to do all require it's swift/immediate action of which you get 1 per turn.
You parried and riposted? Good luck making that fortitude save or succeeding that acrobatics check.
No doubt that swashbucklers are swift-action-starved, but I just want to mention that neither of the Acrobatics-related abilities (Derring-Do and Swashbuckler's Grace) require any sort of action, as you seem to be implying they do.
Swashbucklers run into the same problem Rogues do at any play above 6th level. Eventually a stray fortitude or will save snipes them. Daring to use any of the fancy kit the Swashbuckler gets from Deeds is mitigated by the ever increasing danger of Fortitude and Will saves. So most folks end up saving their swift/immediate for Charmed Life. This is a pretty big issue since the Swashbuckler is essentially supposed to take the position of primary combatant for most parties and yet it can't go toe to toe with most creatures. Creatures with rider effects on it's attacks, auras or spell-like abilities can easily shut down a Swashbuckler unlike most other martials. Additionally it has little ways to deal with such issues because of it's reliance of getting adjacent to targets to use any of it's abilities.
"Fails saves on occasion" is a pretty broad reason to dismiss a class. Swashbucklers can have excellent Will saves with Steadfast Personality. If you are so worried about swift action economy then take Irrepressible as well and you don't need to worry about saving your immediate for Charmed Life. Anyway, I found that Riposte and Charmed Life rarely interfere with each other, as typically you will know which is the bigger danger - spells or physical damage, and you use your immediate action accordingly. I played a whole campaign with a swash, and I can only recall one time that I failed an important save, with just Irrepressible, Steadfast Personality, and Charmed Life.
So when people say that the Swashbuckler is actually kind of bad, this is generally what they mean. You're far better off served by the Daring Champion Cavalier since a good Fortitude save is about ten times more meaningful for a frontline combatant than a good Reflex is.
No doubt, Daring Champion is a very strong class. Precisely because it poaches swash class features. But, its Fort save isn't better than the swashbucklers until ~8th level with Charmed Life.
When most of us speak of mobile combatants we don't mean you should attack and run away/disengate/etc, and combat. It means you have a way to move and attack while still being effective.
As an an example if I full attack which normally requires for me to be planted in one spot then I and do a lot of damage. If I move up and then attack, then I do less damage, so moving and striking is not as good as standing still and striking unless you have pounce.
The swashbuckler might be able to use acrobatics at full spell which helps in mobility, but if he gets there and has the same problems as every other melee type then he is not ahead.
I am not saying they need pounce, but some that gives then two attacks, even at a penalty would be nice.
By now someone has probably mentioned barbarians and how they can get pretty good AC, and between raging and the DR can deal with taking the AoO, even if they get hit. I consider them to be better mobile combatants, if they have pounce that is.
I am not saying they need pounce, but some that gives then two attacks, even at a penalty would be nice.
Getting Perfect Thrust earlier and letting it work on a charge would have been nice. Hitting touch and bypassing DR may not make up for not getting a full attack, but it certainly would be a nice consolation prize.
So basically the Swashbuckler's problem is that...it's not as good as a Barbarian?
Like...well, any other martial class that isn't a Barbarian/Bloodrager?
I play a Swaskbuckler (Inspired blade) in Kingmaker, and I'm having a lot of fun with him while being very effective.
Sure he has a saves "problem".
Good thing classes are not meant to be played solo, right? Because sometimes if feels like people on this board are only interested in classes and builds that are self sufficient on every damn aspect, ready for absolutely everything that can come their way without the need of their partners.
I find this boring. I want my characters to have some flaws. It makes them actually much more fun to play, and helps making the others players shine when I'm calling for their help.
So my swashbuckler is somewhat lackluster on fortitude and will saves? Good! Then my bard and my priest can save my ass, getting their pat on the back after the fight, ensuring next time I'll step between the bad guy and them to protect and save them cause, you know, I'm a swashbuckler, this is what I do.
So basically the Swashbuckler's problem is that...it's not as good as a Barbarian?
Like...well, any other martial class that isn't a Barbarian/Bloodrager?
Stop it. Nobody said that, and pretending to be a mindreader is rude. You asked a question without waiting for an answer so you were not really asking, and no, not being on par with a barbarian is not the problem.
Stop it. Nobody said that, and pretending to be a mindreader is rude. You asked a question without waiting for an answer so you were not really asking, and no, not being on par with a barbarian is not the problem.So basically the Swashbuckler's problem is that...it's not as good as a Barbarian?
Like...well, any other martial class that isn't a Barbarian/Bloodrager?
It wasn't adressed to you. I just read the whole thread, and this is the feeling I got.
Because let's face it, what are the features that make a front liner considered mobile? Extra movement and pounce.You either get this by feats that any martial character can have, or by...being a barbarian.
Besides I think the multiples Aoo's the swashbuckler gets added to Opportune parry and riposte and dodging panache are pretty good "mobile" option, really.
I also believe pounce is kinda overratted as a "mobile" option. It's an awesome power, really, but most of the times the first charge gets you to where the action is, and you can rarely get another charge during that fight. Making it more an opener than a really "mobile" option, imho
There are quite a few low-level spells that increase character mobility (grace, bladed dash, litany of sloth, longstrider, force hook charge, feather step, etc).
Why couldn't the Swashbuckler get similar effects as (Ex) abilities, say, by spending Panache?
And I think you're underestimating Pouncing. IME, most enemies don't stand glued to each other unless they are all ganging up on a single character, in which case you need a really strong "opener" to keep your friend alive. Besides, since there is no way to stop an enemy from simply going around you and attacking a different party member, Pounce is a good way to kill stragglers and encourage enemies to focus on you rather than the squishy party members.
I am not saying they need pounce, but some that gives then two attacks, even at a penalty would be nice.
They DO have this, at 1st level even! And full BAB! Move, provoke, parry, riposte, attack.
That fills your "two attacks on the move" request to a tee.
When most of us speak of mobile combatants we don't mean you should attack and run away/disengate/etc, and combat. It means you have a way to move and attack while still being effective.
As an an example if I full attack which normally requires for me to be planted in one spot then I and do a lot of damage. If I move up and then attack, then I do less damage, so moving and striking is not as good as standing still and striking unless you have pounce.
You say "move and attack while still being effective", which is something Swashbucklers already have. They are far less reliant on full-attacks than TWF builds, monks, brawlers, archers, or natural attack builds. And from levels 1-10 (HALF THE GAME) they can get more or better attacks by moving than by standing still!
You say "still being effective" but your next paragraph shows you mean "being equally effective." When the iconic swashbucklers fight suitable opponents, they do so in duels, i.e., stand next to them and full-attack. The only people they one-shot on the move are mooks, and in-game you can do that on the riposte, or take the swash dervish archetype.
Stop it. Nobody said that, and pretending to be a mindreader is rude. You asked a question without waiting for an answer so you were not really asking, and no, not being on par with a barbarian is not the problem.So basically the Swashbuckler's problem is that...it's not as good as a Barbarian?
Like...well, any other martial class that isn't a Barbarian/Bloodrager?It wasn't adressed to you. I just read the whole thread, and this is the feeling I got.
Because let's face it, what are the features that make a front liner considered mobile? Extra movement and pounce.
You either get this by feats that any martial character can have, or by...being a barbarian.Besides I think the multiples Aoo's the swashbuckler gets added to Opportune parry and riposte and dodging panache are pretty good "mobile" option, really.
I also believe pounce is kinda overratted as a "mobile" option. It's an awesome power, really, but most of the times the first charge gets you to where the action is, and you can rarely get another charge during that fight. Making it more an opener than a really "mobile" option, imho
How you feel and what people mean are not the same thing.
I am not saying they need pounce, but some that gives then two attacks, even at a penalty would be nice.They DO have this, at 1st level even! And full BAB! Move, provoke, parry, riposte, attack.
That fills your "two attacks on the move" request to a tee.
When most of us speak of mobile combatants we don't mean you should attack and run away/disengate/etc, and combat. It means you have a way to move and attack while still being effective.
As an an example if I full attack which normally requires for me to be planted in one spot then I and do a lot of damage. If I move up and then attack, then I do less damage, so moving and striking is not as good as standing still and striking unless you have pounce.
You say "move and attack while still being effective", which is something Swashbucklers already have. They are far less reliant on full-attacks than TWF builds, monks, brawlers, archers, or natural attack builds. And from levels 1-10 (HALF THE GAME) they can get more or better attacks by moving than by standing still!
You say "still being effective" but your next paragraph shows you mean "being equally effective." When the iconic swashbucklers fight suitable opponents, they do so in duels, i.e., stand next to them and full-attack. The only people they one-shot on the move are mooks, and in-game you can do that on the riposte, or take the swash dervish archetype.
Parry and Riposte is not "move and attack twice". You are trying to equivocate. How is asking for two attacks supposed to be equal to a full round attack? If I am trying to count that as equal then I need to stop posting. However that is not what I am saying. You need to stop assumin. When I intend for moving and fighting to be equal to a full round attack I will say it.
Priness bride was shuffling I'd call that lots of 5 foot steps.
Rogue Eidolon had a lot of similar concerns during the playtest, and he has a bunch of interesting playtest results posted up of how swash does soloing creatures of various CRs and mythic tiers. Interesting stuff!
How you feel and what people mean are not the same thing.
Ok, you're right I apologize for mindreading. I'm gonna shut up and let others do the talk.
The class is still effective if one pays for all the necessary feats. But nowhere near as strong as some pure Strength builds or Archery builds available (2-handed Power Attack Barbarian or Zen Archer as primary examples)
The Swashbuckler is fairly terrible, actually. Overuse of the swift action means that the Swash will rarely get to use many of her tools, and even the ones that you can use are nowhere near as strong as the Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger.
I am now very curious what this GM does when someone rolls a wizard, does he just sob? Cause there is seriously no comparison in terms of power. What about Barbarians do they have to use d8s at your table as well?
The Swashbuckler's balance is just fine. If anything, the class is actually rather weak. It's easily out-damaged by a fighter, ranger, or barbarian making use of a two-handed weapon, and it is laughably outclassed as a mobile damage-dealer by the Brawler with his Pummeling Style online.
If you compare Swashbuckler to other core classes like Barbarian or Wizard, there's definitely nothing unbalanced about the Swash.
The Barbarian, the cavalier and, depending on the enemies, the paladin can deal the same amount of damage. And often with less feats needed.
So someone can feel free to direct me to a Barbarian of mwahaha Death
A single level of SB (or daring champion Cavalier) followed by 19 of Urban Barbarian is also much better (...) Also, Barbarians can have both flight and Pounce. Plus a lot of other cool tricks, like breaking magic.
Any marginally well built two handed Barbarian or Fighter is going to do more damage across a larger variety of combat situations than a Swashbuckler (...) The Swashbuckler may have a few more options in combat, but they aren't significantly better than either a Fighter or a Barbarian in combat (...) Outside of combat, a Swashbuckler probably has a few more skills available to chose from, but I would say they are on par with Barbarians and Lore Warden Fighters in that regard, and still behind a Ranger or Slayer.
Yeah, the most mobile combat classes are Druids, Barbarians, and Summoners
By now someone has probably mentioned barbarians and how they can get pretty good AC, and between raging and the DR can deal with taking the AoO, even if they get hit. I consider them to be better mobile combatants, if they have pounce that is
Edit: Seems like Genuine is mindreading too.
When I said the sob thing about Wizards I was being sarcastic for sure but meant no offense. My point was is the Swashbuckler scares the DM then what does he do when a real broken class shows up.
I'm not a huge fan of having two weak saves to make things interesting, especially not THOSE saves. Blowing a Reflex save hurts. Blowing Fort saves can result in instant death at higher levels, and blowing Will saves can also kill you or make you kill your friends. Being able to avoid ONE of those most of the time without spending a limited resource would have been nice. The Swashbuckler is a combination of the Fighter and the Gunslinger. It should have Gunslinger saves, like the Brawler and Slayer do. Who rolls a swash that can't hold his drink as well as a priest?
Well I'm not a fan either, really. But many frontliners have this problem, I'm just used to deal with it and I don't feel like it makes this class unplayable or even under par.
And I'm with you on the drinking problem. My swashbuckler is a night owl and a heavy social drikner. But guess what, I made him unable to handle alcohol, and it became a fun ropleplaying perk.It would have been more keeping in the all-day advantage of martial classes if the Swashbuckler had kept its weak saves but been compensated by making Charmed life like a Canny Defense for Saves; as you level up, you get an increasing charisma bonus to all your saves at all times, no actions required. One, this would let the Swashbuckler parry/riposte and use all of their deeds without sacrificing their Charmed Life usage, two, you can't argue it's overpowered since Paladins, an extremely balanced class, get full Charisma to saves at level 2 AND have two strong saves to begin with, and three, it lets the Swashbuckler focus on his deeds and panache rather than trying to track two separately draining pools that use up the same action to activate.
I'm gonna have to disagree here on paladins. I do find them overpowered or, at least, unbalanced. The +Cha to saves appears to me (and my whole group) like a totally cheesy add to a class that already has full BAB, casting ability, self healing or a dman swift action, burst of damage and defense, a mount and perfectly nice saves to start with.
Blowing Fort saves can result in instant death at higher levels, and blowing Will saves can also kill you or make you kill your friends. Being able to avoid ONE of those most of the time without spending a limited resource would have been nice.
That's what Irrepressible is.
intentionally provoking an AoO, spending 2 panache and an immediate action (hope you don't want to do any deeds or Charmed Life between now and when your swift resets) to MAYBE block the AoO and counterattack. You can move while attacking, but this is not like the Whirlwind Dance, which I feel EVERY form of the swashbuckler should get.
Parry and Riposte only costs one panache, not two.
5' steps over difficult terrain. :)
Which swashbucklers can do with a Green Glove Swordmaster's Flair.