Hello all, first time poster here. :) I've been following this forum for a while and my friends and I have referred to it countless numbers of times while playing. I am absolutely obsessed with PACG and a self-professed rules police (sorry).
I have noticed in other posts (particularly the conversation about the Restoration exploit) that when you use the Staff of Minor Healing, you recharge the healed card first, and then recharge the staff, so that the staff is then at the bottom of the character deck. The card itself says, "Recharge this card ... to recharge 1 random card ..." which makes sense to me that you would recharge the staff *first* to recharge the random, healed card.
This is in comparison with a card like the Surgeon, who specifically states: "Display this card to [heal a card]. Then recharge this card." (Though admittedly, that may be because you shuffle the healed card instead of recharging it.) I would say that if the designers intended you to recharge the healed card first and the Staff second, it would say something similar.
At the moment we play with a house rule that says you recharge the staff first, and then recharge the healed card, just to stay consistent. But what is the reasoning behind this?
Apologies if this is answered somewhere else; can't seem to find anything on it.
I recharge the staff first too. I'll have to go looking for any posts indicating you would recharge the card from the discard pile first.
Definitely cards that cause you to shuffle discards back in instead of just recharge them are more likely to use the "Display this card, then later recharge it" action. But there was a RotR card called Shaman that was actually "Recharge this card to allow every character at your location to shuffle 1 random card from your discard pile into your deck." Or something like that. And I recharged it first then shuffled. Which meant I might draw him again soon.
Anyway, back in a sec after I do some research.
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Yes, the Shaman is another example. I recently acquired him in one game and was confused by the wording. Surely if they wanted you to heal first, then recharge the Shaman to avoid drawing it again straight away, they would word it like the surgeon. But it doesn't, so I didn't :)
So, I looked through the Restoration thread. While Orbis Orboros does talk about recharging the random card first, I wouldn't take that to mean that is the correct order. (I'm not even sure Orbis plays that way.) The Restoration exploit still existed even if you recharged the staff first (and was probably worse).
So, yeah, I'd say you perform the "playing action" with the card first, then do what the card instructs you. So Staff of Minor Healing, recharge the staff, then recharge a random card. Shaman, recharge the Shaman, then shuffle a random card in.
Like I said, a lot of the card that heal by shuffling intentionally have you display the card that triggers the healing so you can't shuffle it back in. Even Kyra's power is this way. If she didn't have to display it, heal, then discard it, she'd be discarding the blessing, then potentially choosing it as one of the random cards. That sort of eliminates some of the "cost", which is why you see the display, heal, recharge/discard action.
Drunken Master Sajan or Damiel and Potion of Healing also gets interesting. That one I'd say is the one I'm most unsure of. I've played Damiel though as "Recharge the Potion of Healing, then shuffle 1d4 random cards into the deck."
If the order isn't specified, then you pick the order. I always recharged the staff first so that it got to the top one card quicker :)
Excellent, I'm just happy that I haven't missed a rule somewhere!
Drunken Master Sajan or Damiel and Potion of Healing also gets interesting. That one I'd say is the one I'm most unsure of. I've played Damiel though as "Recharge the Potion of Healing, then shuffle 1d4 random cards into the deck."
Yes, I have played as Drunken Master Sajan and that is definitely an interesting exploit.
If the order isn't specified, then you pick the order. I always recharged the staff first so that it got to the top one card quicker :)
I do the same thing, for the same reason! I love the Staff. It is a great card, especially in early games.
Just realised I said "I love the Staff" .......
oh well.
I always played it as you pick the order. If I was to select another answer, I would say that you have to recharge the staff first, because it's worded like a cost. You have to recharge it to do the other things, so recharging is the first thing that happens. But most of that comes from other card games, so it may or may not be relevant at all.
We also recharge the staff first, then the random card after. Other cards like Cure, Surgeon, or Kyra's power specifically tells you to reveal then heal then discard. That makes it so the card you used to heal isn't shuffled in.
When a card tells you to Discard to explore again, what we all do is discard first then explore, right? It should be consistent with the Staff. We recharge staff, then heal.
And yet we recharge spells AFTER the combat is over, but Ezren uses his draw ability after he plays a spell, yet gets to do so before he recharges the spell.
PACG isn't so beautifully consistent in it's timing.
EDIT: Not that you're necessarily wrong, or that I don't love the game. Just saying.
You're right. I didn't realize how differently we approach spells. And I know for sure this isn't the only area in which PACG is inconsistent, but like you, it doesn't make me love the game any less. I think a few special cases here and there is what's giving the game more depth. It's how those special cases are explained that confuses the most of us.
It makes more sense for a card to be discarded after taking the action that it allows.
Consider the following situation:
"But wait," you might say. "How could they forget their bonus that quickly?" Well, perhaps someone else played a blessing, then Harsk used his power, then they got into a lengthy discussion as to whether it was worth it for Valeros to also use an ally. Now he's ready to roll dice, and he doesn't remember how many should be rolled because every relevant card to the roll has already been discarded.
For the sake of sanity, I'd discard the sword after its effects have taken place. Basically an active stack, not a queue. Discard or recharge all cards used in a step in reverse order of when they were played, unless the card itself indicates a different timing.
To extend that ruling, I would therefore recharge the Staff of Minor Healing after the card that it recharged.
It makes more sense for a card to be discarded after taking the action that it allows.
Weapons kinda of covers the same area that Spells does. But what about discarding to explore? revealing to add? Do you do the action before you reveal? You explore before you discard? Of course not. So like Orbis said, PACG is just not as consistent as we'd like. But that might be a good thing.
Ah, a fair point. Discard to explore would certainly have the discard happen immediately, especially by my reasoning. You don't need the card out for reference once you're already exploring. But that changes my conclusion.
Oh well. I'll try to come up with another grand unifying theory later.
Ah, a fair point. Discard to explore would certainly have the discard happen immediately, especially by my reasoning. You don't need the card out for reference once you're already exploring. But that changes my conclusion.
Oh well. I'll try to come up with another grand unifying theory later.
Good luck with that hehe. Now the good point is we don't need a grand unifying theory.
I agree with all things mentioned here. It makes sense that the action the card makes takes precedence over the discarding/recharging of the actual card. Which to me is the only possible argument as to why the staff is recharged second.
But my favourite thing about this thread (and why I love this community so much) is that we have agreed there is no concrete rule, which means we have changed our house rule to "it doesn't matter which is recharged first". That makes everyone happy, mostly because it makes me less of an obnoxious rules police :)
Ah, a fair point. Discard to explore would certainly have the discard happen immediately, especially by my reasoning. You don't need the card out for reference once you're already exploring. But that changes my conclusion.
What about the cards that give you a combat bonus on your explore such as Velociraptor?
Ah, a fair point. Discard to explore would certainly have the discard happen immediately, especially by my reasoning. You don't need the card out for reference once you're already exploring. But that changes my conclusion.What about the cards that give you a combat bonus on your explore such as Velociraptor?
Personally, I play them like this:
If I recharge the 'Raptor or whatever, I just do so first and try and remember.
If I discard/bury/banish it, I leave it out and face-up until its effect ends or I need to interact with my discard pile for a cure or whatever. Technically this can effect the order of my discard pile, but since there's nothing in the game yet that this matters for, I don't let it bother me.
Technically this can effect the order of my discard pile, but since there's nothing in the game yet that this matters for, I don't let it bother me.
Almost nothing. I think Apothecary in RotR cared about the top of your discard pile. But I'm sure you could also figure out what is supposed to be where.
Technically this can effect the order of my discard pile, but since there's nothing in the game yet that this matters for, I don't let it bother me.Almost nothing. I think Apothecary in RotR cared about the top of your discard pile. But I'm sure you could also figure out what is supposed to be where.
I knew if I said that then someone would find the one exception...
But that's never come up, anyway. The Apothacary practically never made it into games, especially in late AP's when these types of cards showed up.
If possible, I'd love to hear why this was deemed necessary.
Because it is unclear, and here, lack of clarity has a game effect. If you have a Staff of Minor Healing and the ability to retrieve cards from the bottom of your deck, it matters whether the Staff is there or whether the healed card is there. Since we want everyone playing by the same rules, we sealed that up.
Thanks Mike. And to clarify, when I said I'd like to hear why it was deemed necessary, I was asking because I love the insight into how you all (all y'all, youns, yins, yous) think.
As you may have noticed up in the thread, I always assumed you didn't get the benefit of the cards power until you had paid the "cost" for the power by performing the necessary action to play it. i.e. You can't explore until your blessing is in the discard pile. Lem can't add a d4 to your check until he recharges a card. I know this makes it more clear and that is great, but is the assumption that you have to perform the play action and then get the effect correct in general? Other than cards that might be recharge (which are in limbo) I've always treated it that way.
Since we are on the topic, that part about a card that might be recharge not being in your hand, deck, discard, etc was removed from the S&S rulebook. But I assume it is still true that when the play action depends on a check, you perform the effect while the card is "in limbo" then resolve the disposition of the card.
And, last question, Damiel and Potion of Healing. Does he recharge the potion, then shuffle 1d4 cards (assuming he chooses himself)? What about Drunken Master Sajan?
Thanks for carrying enough to make these small details clear. I do so enjoy playing by the rules.
Vic also hit the Damiel/Potion of Healing question, which we are looking at to see if it should be answered the same way or not.
I'll also look into the state of a rechargeable card's position not being defined.
To be more clear (because what I said before wasn't very clear), the part I'm referring to is in the RotR rulebook and isn't in the S&S rulebook. I didn't mean that it was in S&S at one time and then later removed by an FAQ or something (which is what my comment sort of sounded like I was saying). So, I just mean, this little part didn't make it from RotR to S&S. Sorry that wasn't said more clearly the first time.
It is this part:
If, while attempting another check, you play a boon that you may be able to recharge, resolve the current check before attempting to recharge the card. The boon is in play (and does not count as being in your hand, in your deck,in your discard pile, or elsewhere) during the intervening time.
It was in the section on boons explaining the recharge box. Since S&S lost the recharge box and that part was removed, that little fact was also removed.
I'm still playing that way. And I sometimes extend it to other situations.
For example, if I was Drunken Master Sajan, I'd play Potion of Healing by shuffling the 1d4 cards, then attempting the check to recharge the potion, because of the idea in this rule.
But if I was Damiel, I'm just recharging the potion and then shuffling. His power requires no condition to change the disposition of the card, it simply replaces one action with another unconditionally.
Or even something like Detect Magic, would the spell be in limbo until after the encounter ends? With so many things doing stuff to my deck and my discard pile, having it in limbo is an advantage. Or it being in limbo could get me killed if something makes me discard the top X cards of my deck and I'm one short. Having recharged Detect Magic would have saved my life in that situation.
If you have a Staff of Minor Healing and the ability to retrieve cards from the bottom of your deck, it matters whether the Staff is there or whether the healed card is there.
Ah, very good point. I hadn't even thought of that. I love the amount of care you guys put into this game.
As far as the Damiel and Potion of Healing goes, it might be as simple as adjusting the wording on his power - something like "recharge the alchemical item after its effects have taken place". I'm not a designer or anything, but that's how I would probably play him anyway :)
Chief Technical Officer
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To be more clear (because what I said before wasn't very clear), the part I'm referring to is in the RotR rulebook and isn't in the S&S rulebook. I didn't mean that it was in S&S at one time and then later removed by an FAQ or something (which is what my comment sort of sounded like I was saying). So, I just mean, this little part didn't make it from RotR to S&S. Sorry that wasn't said more clearly the first time.
It is this part:
If, while attempting another check, you play a boon that you may be able to recharge, resolve the current check before attempting to recharge the card. The boon is in play (and does not count as being in your hand, in your deck,in your discard pile, or elsewhere) during the intervening time.
Hmm. We'll look into that.
Or even something like Detect Magic, would the spell be in limbo until after the encounter ends? With so many things doing stuff to my deck and my discard pile, having it in limbo is an advantage. Or it being in limbo could get me killed if something makes me discard the top X cards of my deck and I'm one short. Having recharged Detect Magic would have saved my life in that situation.
It also affects things like the wizardly draw powers. Maybe the magic thing in question can mostly easily be acquired by the Swipe on top of your deck.
Can a card grant an encounter the same way that various effects grant explores? Detect Magic might given you a pending encounter opportunity that takes place after the card goes away.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Resolved in FAQ.
We have decided that the scope of this issue is larger than a card or two, and have resolved it in the rules (and have removed the previous resolution affecting the Staff of Minor Healing).
I like this much more. Not that me liking something has any value or means anything, I just like it much more.
Hello guys, this is my first post here.
Does this solve the Sajan Drunken Master and Damiel issue?
Because most potions (if not all) say "banish this card to..."; so, replacing the "banish" with "recharge" for Damiel or "recharge attempt" for Sajan would mean they recharge the potion before activating its power.
Welcome to the forums.
For Damiel, I'd say it does. He recharges the card when he would banish it. He would banish it when he performs the action, which he must do before he shuffled the cards from his discard pile back in. So his power seems pretty clear now.
I'd still say that Sajan has to recharge the cards, then make his check to see if he recharges or banishes the potion. Damiel I'd say recharges the potion, then shuffles the cards. But I can't argue that convincingly. I can only say that in RotR when, while attempting a check, you played a card that might be able to recharge, you set that card aside and resolved the current check first. That really only applies to playing cards during a check, and playing Potion of Healing isn't during a check. So you could easily argue back to me that if no order is specified, you choose the order. And you'd be right. (Plus as mentioned, that part is currently missing from the S&S rulebook.) So, I'm going mostly on feel and trying to read intentions and see the bigger picture. To me, that part that was in in RotR should be a rule something like this:
If, while attempting another check,you play a boon that you may be able to recharge, resolve the currentcheckactions before attempting to recharge the card. The boon is in play (and does not count as being in your hand, in your deck,in your discard pile, or elsewhere) during the intervening time.
I say that because I see that rule as an extension of "Finish one thing before you start another."
Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else. You do many things in a specific order, and you need to finish doing each thing before you do the next thing. You move before you explore, not after. If a spell used in a check can be recharged, finish the first check before you attempt your check to recharge it. If a villain requires two sequential combat checks, finish the first before starting the second. Don’t start a new process until you’ve finished the last one. (That said, if the game doesn’t specify an order for things, you decide the order.)
Notice the bit about attempting to recharge a spell played during a check is in there too. Just nothing about how it doesn't count as part of your hand or any pile or deck while it is in play.
So for Sajan, finish doing what the Potion of Healing says before you start to see if you can recharge it. But, even though I think that way, I'm not sure it is entirely clear.
So, yeah, I think Damiel is clear now. Sajan probably isn't.
Thanks for the welcome.
Well, I agree that it makes sense to treat Sajan differently, because he gets a recharge attempt instead of an automatic recharge.
But my doubt is regarding the ruling. So, according to the the ruling, you have to do the first action first. Potions wise, banishing. However, Sajan gets a recharge attempt instead of banishing.
If one combined the description of Sajan's power with, say, a Potion of Healing, it could be read as "(...)succeed at a Fortitude 6 check to recharge this card instead of banishing it and choose a character at your location to shuffle...".
I realize this is not a common wording for a boon, we see it mostly on banes, when they have special effects pre-encounter. Anyway, I think this conclusion is a possible one.
Again, I agree this is much more straight forward with Damiel. Simply read "banish" as "recharge" and it's done.
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It would actually read like spells and items.
At the end of all the card powers, it would say something to the effect of (don't have the cards right now and don't know the exact wording)
"After playing Potion of Healing, you may attempt X check to recharge it instead of banishing"
Just like the rules for spells, a recharge check always comes after finishing the card's power. This ruling doesn't affect Sajan at all. His power is already covered under a separate rule.
I tend to agree with you Andrew, and definitely agree this ruling doesn't affect Sajan. But I think the Sajan question is still open. I think the one problem is that Sajan's power says "When you play", where as spells say "After you play." "When," while undefined in the rules, has so far seemed to signal something you do instantly. i.e. Valeros and recharging weapons. "After" has tended to indicate that you finish the other thing first. Look at Ezren's exmaine power for instance. It uses "after", which is why it totally makes sense that he finishes playing the spell completely (resolving the check if it generates a combat check, encountering a card if he plays detect magic) before he gets to examine.
Again, I play it the exact same way you do, because it makes the most sense from the rules and all the other cards. I'm just saying I'm not so sure it it 100% clear in the rules that you play that way.
Taking another look at Drunken Master.
Always perform the first action required by a power before performing any other action. For example, if a card says "Recharge this card to recharge a card from your discard pile," recharge the card you're playing before recharging the card from your discard pile.
So if Class Deck Lem with either role card takes the feat to shuffle cards into his deck instead of recharging them, is the following sequence correct?
Encounter a troll
Reveal a weapon
Shuffle Tidepool Dragon into my deck to add 2 and the Fire Trait
Roll a d12, getting a 1
Hunt through my deck for the Tidepool Dragon to banish it
Reshuffle the deck
Deal Fire splash damage to everyone at the location
Play a blessing on the combat check, recharging it because it matches the top of the blessings deck
Roll dice
...
Oh dear. I feel like I owe Mike and Vic an apology for making so much extra work for them!
I'm in agreement with Andrew on this one: I would treat Drunken Master Sajan's power the same as the recharge text on an item or spell. Damiel is clear.
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Chief Technical Officer
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To be more clear (because what I said before wasn't very clear), the part I'm referring to is in the RotR rulebook and isn't in the S&S rulebook. I didn't mean that it was in S&S at one time and then later removed by an FAQ or something (which is what my comment sort of sounded like I was saying). So, I just mean, this little part didn't make it from RotR to S&S. Sorry that wasn't said more clearly the first time.
It is this part:
If, while attempting another check, you play a boon that you may be able to recharge, resolve the current check before attempting to recharge the card. The boon is in play (and does not count as being in your hand, in your deck,in your discard pile, or elsewhere) during the intervening time.It was in the section on boons explaining the recharge box. Since S&S lost the recharge box and that part was removed, that little fact was also removed.
The reason we removed it is because we added this to Attempt the Check: "If any cards played while attempting a check include their own checks, resolve the current check in this step and the new checks in subsequent steps."
That bit of text ensures that the checks aren't nested and states the priority. Unlike the removed text, it doesn't tell you that the card is "in the air" during the interim, but to be honest, I have always been very uncomfortable with that concept, and I'm currently unconvinced of its value.
So, where is the card while I'm attempting the check?
For example, suppose I play a typical skill determining spell for my combat check, which I'll be attempting to recharge after playing.
What if I fail the combat check? Is the spell in my hand as possible damage?
What if the monster makes me bury 1d4 random cards from my discard pile* if I fail the check? Is the spell in my discard pile as one of those possibilities?
What if I'm at a location that says "If you succeed at a check, discard a card." Can I discard the spell I would otherwise attempt to recharge?
What if I play Detect Evil. I examine the top card and it is a monster, so I decide to encounter it. Before I act, I'm dealt 1d4 Ranged Combat damage or told to bury 1d4 card from my discard pile or the bottom 1d4 cards from my deck. Where is Detect Evil? Should I have attempted the recharge check already? Perhaps prior to examining or prior to encountering the monster? (In this thread, from days of yore which contains the first post I ever made in discussion of a rule, Mike indicates you wouldn't attempt to recharge a card like Detect Evil until after the encounter was resolved. Now, granted, that was a few rulebook and card templates ago, and also a time when Mike was perhaps a bit tired and the thread never totally gets official confirmation, but that is how I was and continue to personally play.)
*I realize most monsters do this as part of an "If undefeated" or "after you act" thing and so I would actually attempt the recharge check before I had to bury the 1d4 random cards, but I've been shoveling and plowing snow all day and my head hurts too much to think of a better example.
I think there is some value in declaring where the card is, even if you get rid of the "limbo" idea. But that is just my opinion.
I think it's pretty clear that if you play a spell, it is no longer in your hand to discard for any other purpose. It is already being discarded/recharged for an effect, so it can't be discarded for another reason.
As you say, the rules indicate that spell discard/recharge is resolved prior to "After you act" and "If undefeated" effects. I don't know of any additional damage effects which aren't in these two categories.
Well, no hair too fine, as Mike has said. If I could make a suggestion: If limbo is an undesirable idea, then why not display the card awaiting the recharge/other disposition/after playing check? Granted, there may some day be things that can mess with displayed cards, but it seems the least likely. And it probably matches what must people are doing in practice right now. It keeps it from being part of the hand it discard pile, and puts it in front of the player as a reminder.
'All cards are displayed until their effects end' covers a lot of eventualities. That's how most complicated card games work; PACG isn't 'most games' but they do this so that you can see everything that is going on. (Sometimes card go away but leave tokens; if the effect of the card is to drop the tokens then it isn't a special case.)
It does prevent an Arcane caster from drawing a spell currently in use due to a thin deck. Normally you can't play multiple spells at one time, but cards that modify any check like Aid (except Arcane) could be used on recharge checks for each other in an infinite chain....
If recharge checks, discarding, banishing and so forth happen as soon as the cards are done executing, starting with the oldest (i.e. left to right on a tableau of cards) then things are pretty simple. Also consistent with spells that are displayed. The 'display' terminology could probably go away except as part of the mechanism for playing cards. (Restoration would have to say to keep in play until the end of your turn since it lingers longer than its effects.) Spheres of Destruction could say 'you may choose to end this effect to add an extra d10 to your check; otherwise it stays in play until the end of your turn'.
This would change the ordering on the Staff of Minor Healing.
A downside is that you would need to remember if you are revealing or discarding a weapon. Sliding a card down slightly when you play it in a more-aggressive manner than the default covers almost all cards. (I don't think that weapons should leave play until the combat check is over since their traits may be important.)
Instead of 'finish one thing before you do the next', the rule would be 'clean up everything that is finished before you start the next thing'.
Instead of 'finish one thing before you do the next', the rule would be 'clean up everything that is finished before you start the next thing'.
The phrase you are searching for is "last in, first out," which is also phrased "this is why we can't have nice things."