Kirin Style, the trappiest trap.

[Covert Operator]

this post is looking for FAQ clicks
What with Knowledge is Power and Kirin Style, I thought Int-based melee combat (as a wizard, magus, or investigator) would be viable.
Unfortunately, Imbicatus pointed out to me that Kirin Style requires a Swift to enter the style, Swift to ID the monster, then Swift for +damage each round.
The FAQ clicks I want are not to get a clarification that it works, but rather to get the devs' attention to errata Kirin style to cause less action economy cost.

Fix 1: Reduce the ID to a free action (retry 1/round)
Fix 2: Make the Kirin Strike damage a free action (1/round)
Fix 3: Combine both of the above fixes. This might be a bit OP.

[Atarlost]

I think the correct fix is to allow any style to be entered as a free action the first time a character comes up in the initiative order in an encounter the same way the action to activate flaming swords is ignored.

[RumpinRufus]

You can take Combat Style Master to negate the action cost of entering the style.

[Imbicatus]

The feat is also a downgrade to knowledge skills. It's normally a non-action to use a knowledge skill, but the feat makes it a swift action.

[Imbicatus]

RumpinRufus wrote:

You can take Combat Style Master to negate the action cost of entering the style.

You can, but that requires you to have another style feat that you will not use as a feat tax.

[mplindustries]

I disagree. I think everyone realized it was a trap.

[Secane]

Seems more of an action economy problem. You do eventually get all the benefits of the style, just in round 3.

[Driver 325 yards]

Well, can't you just always be in the style. The swift to enter the style could be at the beginning of the dungeon, unless there is some FAQ ruling I don't know about that prevents that.

[Covert Operator]

Secane wrote:

in round 3.

That's the big problem! All other style feats give you their bonus on round one or (rarely) two.

The Swift Action requirement is really so that you can't have it active before your (non-surprise round) turn starts.

Atarlost wrote:

the action to activate flaming swords is ignored.

Well, that action is ignored more b/c smart PCs never deactivate it. A scabbard made for a magic flaming sword is protected against fire by nature (don't forget that swords always come with scabbards fitted for them when you buy them).

[Covert Operator]

Driver 325 yards:
Nah. No RAW preventing it, but RAI the same logic that goes behind Judgements. No sane person would expend their energy (which is an infinite resource in PF) defending themselves when there is no threat to defend against. Same logic follows for surprise rounds.

[Covert Operator]

If I could plan for the fight, I would activate the style before kicking the dungeon door in, and maybe open the door ajar first to ID the monster inside.

[Driver 325 yards]

I clicked the FAQ by the way. That said, I saw another thread where people were asking whether a swift action ability can be activated by actions that are longer in time than a swift action.

Was that question ever answered? Could a person already in Kirin Style (lets say from the beginning of the dungeon) use a swift to ID and then a move to do the bonus damage? Still not ideal. I would like your suggested changes better. But is this a possible alternative?

[RumpinRufus]

Imbicatus wrote:

RumpinRufus wrote:

You can take Combat Style Master to negate the action cost of entering the style.

You can, but that requires you to have another style feat that you will not use as a feat tax.

Ah yes, I always forget that feats in the style path aren't technically "style feats". I was thinking Kirin Style + Kirin Path would count as two style feats for the pre-req.

[Dustyboy]

Well it gives you time to set up your routine for two rounds :D

Round 1.. Uhh potion/spell
round two... more potions and spells

round three: Ok guy's i'm ready to kick some- oh they're all dead

It's a spell for snipers and sneaks painted as a scholar's combat style, I would use it with a double crossbow and vital strike (Maybe) though arcane strike is arguably better for your average character with an SLA

[Imbicatus]

RumpinRufus wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

RumpinRufus wrote:

You can take Combat Style Master to negate the action cost of entering the style.

You can, but that requires you to have another style feat that you will not use as a feat tax.

Ah yes, I always forget that feats in the style path aren't technically "style feats". I was thinking Kirin Style + Kirin Path would count as two style feats for the pre-req.

Yup. The best use of combat style master is to take dragon style and pummeling style. Charge using dragon style to bypass allies and difficult terrain. Then when you reach attack range use a free action to turn off dragon style and turn on pummeling style, and pummeling charge on the attack.

[LoneKnave]

Covert Operator wrote:

Secane wrote:

in round 3.

That's the big problem! All other style feats give you their bonus on round one or (rarely) two.

The Swift Action requirement is really so that you can't have it active before your (non-surprise round) turn starts.

Atarlost wrote:

the action to activate flaming swords is ignored.

Well, that action is ignored more b/c smart PCs never deactivate it. A scabbard made for a magic flaming sword is protected against fire by nature (don't forget that swords always come with scabbards fitted for them when you buy them).

So, why couldn't the vary adventurer go everywhere in Kirin Style stance?

Which reminds me, I wonder how that stance looks. Maybe you need to be scratching your chin to think harder?

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed a post and the replies to it. Referring to people as "traps" is derogatory, and joking about it isn't OK on paizo.com.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

I vote for the option to make identifying creatures a free action. This makes Kirin Strike available in round 2, and makes Kirin Style actually work with the normal rules for identfying creatures.

[Artanthos]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

I vote for the option to make identifying creatures a free action. This makes Kirin Strike available in round 2, and makes Kirin Style actually work with the normal rules for identfying creatures.

I agree.

Usage of knowledge skills should be a non-action.

[Imbicatus]

Kirin is not alone in downgrading knowledge skills. Lore Warden fighter does as well.

[boring7]

I don't understand the question. Knowledge is Power appears to be "always on." Kirin Style takes a swift action to activate and a swift action to get its not-very-good defensive bonuses against one target IF you make the knowledge check. Kirin style takes 1 full round to start being effective, therefore, not 3. I'm not sure that's a trap, just a lousy feat. Better to take dodge.

Did I miss something?

[Ferious Thune]

You can only take one swift action per round. So it's

Round 1: Swift action to enter Kirin Style
Round 2: Swift action to identify opponent using Kirin Style and gain defensive bonuses
Round 3: Swift action to add Kirin Strike bonus to damage.

So, the earliest you can get the defensive bonus from Kirin Style is round 2. The earliest you can get the damage bonus from Kirin Strike is Round 3. Unless your GM allows you to walk around with Kirin Style active. That would speed everything up by 1 round.

[Imbicatus]

Kirin Strike for 2xINT to damage on one hit takes the three rounds of setup.

[boring7]

Ah, I didn't see Kirin Strike anywhere in the setup.

[ryric]

While it's still a pretty bad feat chain, it's not like you have to stand around doing nothing else for the rounds you set up Kirin Style/Strike. You can still take your normal standard/move/full rounds during that time. You're not standing in the back chugging potions for three rounds while everyone else fights, you can be fighting and participating while you set up your minor buffs.

[Petty Alchemy]

While you're setting up your combat style that you've dedicated a whole bunch of feats to.

It'd be like needing to wait 3 rounds before you can Power Attack. Not very rewarding.

[Voadam]

I'm trying to make it work. I do dragon style and the combat style mastery. Round 1 charge and hit, free action switch styles, and swift action Kirin style study. Round 2 Ki rin strike.

Often it goes surprise round charge and free action switch to Ki Rin style. First full round swift action study while full attacking. Second full round full attack with strike.

A five feat investment is a lot to get X2 int once a round against a single target. And if that opponent goes down it is real annoying to have to spend a swift action to reset study another single target and therefore a full round before before bringing on the kirin strike again.

[Dustyboy]

Chris Lambertz wrote:

Removed a post and the replies to it. Referring to people as "traps" is derogatory, and joking about it isn't OK on paizo.com.

Maybe over PM we can have a lighthearted discussion on the first portion of that statement as educated individuals? (I see that you're trying to defend people)

Kirin strike has uses again, It works well for snipers and is something that is worth a retrain when you're high enough for vital strike, to retrain out of focused shot. (One shot, one kill)

It's clearly not an attack designed for skirmishing or party fights... but is great for things like assassin types... But there are other abilities that offer boons based on knowledge rolls that might be of interest and may actually stack.

The only reliable way to get int to damage to my knowledge is focused shot, which clearly is not very good... especially after fifth level

[Zwordsman]

Man Focused dshot.. I would love that IF it didn't have a 30ft range.. that just shuts it down.. otherwise I have plenty of builds who would lve it

I think kirin strike only works for those folks who prefer moving over full attacking.. The only builds I have that employ it nicely are my crossbow styled alchemist with explosive missle discocovery, and my investigator who flanks for people and does ok damage.
If you could enter a style for free or identify for free would make this skil so much more useful.
or that whole swfit into movie into standard thing.. but thats squiffy and hard to get agm to rolll with

I've seen some amusing builds via gishy casters.. but yakno it eventually competes with quicken and such.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

I made a houserule as a GM to allow this feat to work as for one of my players who is an investigator. I let her be in Kirin stance at all times, which means she can do a Kirin swift action and a study in the first round, and then unleash the power of the Kirin stance and studied strike simultaneously the following round.

[Covert Operator]

So I had this great idea: Pummeling Style + Kirin Strike.

Kirin Style lets you apply your bonus damage to a single attack per round.
Pummeling Style lets you make one attack, with a bunch of rolls (note: not attack rolls, just rolls with your normal attack bonus) that deal "normal damage."
The normal damage for the attack is including Kirin Style, providing that you spend your swift action after you finish all the rolls for Pummeling Style.

obviously against RAI, but this is me trying to figure how to make Kirin style good.

[Imbicatus]

It doesn't work that way. One swift action applies 2x int damage. That's it. You add your pummeling style damage up, and then what ever that is, you add your int bonus twice.

[Zwordsman]

on the upside of that? pummellling style has a pretty good chance of critting as whole.
which kirin style's damage would be multiplied via (as it doesn't say it doesn't nor is it a damage type that is denied)

[Covert Operator]

I dunno, Imbicatus.
Pummeling Style is worded pretty weirdly, for what it does.

Imbicatus wrote:

It doesn't work that way. One swift action applies 2x int damage. That's it. You add your pummeling style damage up, and then what ever that is, you add your int bonus twice.

One Swift action adds twice your int mod in damage to the hit

adds damage to the hit
If you read Pummeling Style very literally, you will be stumped by "normal"
What exactly is the "normal attack bonus" for each roll, and the "normal damage"
Any sensible person would read this as: whatever attack bonus and damage bonus the attack[s] you would've made would use.
Applying Kirin style to your pummelling attack would apply its damage bonus to each roll you make as part of it.

With any int-based character (take my investigator you helped with for example), you could pull this off.
3-level dip, and only if you gain a feat for your 3rd-level. (i.e take the fighter level at level 5)
Monk 2 (Master of Many Styles, Weapon Master)
B Feat 1: Kirin Style
B Feat 2: Kirin Strike
Fighter 1 (Unarmed Fighter) [could be a class that grants FoB and a bonus feat, i dunno which]
B Feat: Pummeling Style
Feat: Combat Style Master