Bandw2
The Outsider Type information is not fluff, it is very much rules text. Why else would specific mentions to it's effects occur in nearly instance of becoming an outsider, such as the monk?
one the monk becomes a native outsider
two, you can't resurrect killed outsider's when they die. that is pretty much all that i think the outsider stuff was intended for, not for weird stuff regarding magic jar.
three, there is outsider mechanics, outsider gives dark vision, I believe, for instance.
i should just flat out say it, i simply do not find the fact that "a outsider and their soul and insuperable", simply, to not be a legitimate reason for magic jar to not work. any attempt to convince me along these lines simply will not sway me.
I'm not even really involved in the wizard vs fighter fight, i just like the occasional rules and items that pop up, but i find this simply ungrounded in mechanics.
so let's just agree to disagree and do whatever mathias(or whom ever the GM may be) says.
Bandw2:
Outsider text for clarity
•d10 Hit Dice.
•Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
•Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
•Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
•Darkvision 60 feet.
•Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
•Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
•Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
•Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
The first few sentences are almost certainly fluff (fluff - meaning that they have no impact on any other rules in the game, or on interaction with players)
The bullets between the fluff and Traits section are mechanical, they inform GMs on how to go about making an outsider.
In the traits section, 4 out of 5 bullets are straightforward, not fluff. The one that you are questioning gives a general rule (unlike most living creatures) and a specific rule (an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit.) It then goes on to reference some implications of this. The relevant portions of the mentioned spells are
These spells do not bear text that would otherwise result in an unfavorable interaction with a single unit body/soul. Thus, they had to be called out in order to prevent their function.
As I've tried to present, Magic Jar doesn't need special mention, because its description already prevents it from having any real function.
Induction from the fact that every other trait is completely mechanical would lead me to conclude that that particular trait is all mechanical as well... but induction isn't really a thing to base this sort of argument on (because people have different inductive reasoning)
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Ive said my last piece on the matter, Ill continue if the FAQ request is opened elsewhere. Otherwise, I hope Mathius saw my previous updated spread of information.
Please continue the discussion here to avoid derailing this thread any more. =]
Please continue the discussion here to avoid derailing this thread any more. =]
Have you've been reading this thread?
This discussion is on topic.
Please continue the discussion here to avoid derailing this thread any more. =]Have you've been reading this thread?
This discussion is on topic.
still, it simply comes down to what mathias says (or whom ever the GM is) so lets get back to normal theory crafting and avoid it for now.
There isn't really a point to this thread anymore.
Last Sunday there was a big contest between to sides and one of the sides lost. Maybe if they hadn't passed it they could have won. Maybe if they'd instead tried to run it they could have won. But they didn't. So we already know who won that big contest last Sunday. And talking about what one side could have done is long past irrelevant already.
There isn't really a point to this thread anymore.
Last Sunday there was a big contest between to sides and one of the sides lost. Maybe if they hadn't passed it they could have won. Maybe if they'd instead tried to run it they could have won. But they didn't. So we already know who won that big contest last Sunday. And talking about what one side could have done is long past irrelevant already.
I didn't know everyone was watching my ultimate Frisbee game.
Some people didn't submit entries because the rules kept changing.
I didn't submit an entry because the contest was agreed on before any real answers had been given in regard to the things Id need to design against, or if the things I had mentioned were at all close to being effective at what I thought they would be effective at.
There is absolutely no question that other people have better system mastery than me. That is all such a contest would have proven in my regard, which is beyond the point of this thread.
It was my intention to design a build that works, step by step, until I succeed against any wizard or reach a point where I cant be fully protected. That's what a wizard gets him: an extremely customizable set of skills.
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I just re-read drakainia, and cant get it to birth a Guardian Dragon (it caps at large).
Instead, I will gate in an Abyss Gigas in the prep week, and take it instead. It's humanoid to boot, so the vestigial arms aren't necessary.
It's blindsight is 100 ft, and I will have to rely on simulacra of guardian dragons to use the alarm feature if the opponent is invis/mindblanked.
the stat change is minor, and it is still gargantuan sized. However, this does mean another update will be necessary (also will have to get rid of Eagle Eyes)
Though I suppose a simulacrum of a Guardian Dragon may be a valid target for Magic Jar (has that been agreed upon?). Even with half HD, that sucker is probably better than the Gigas.
Some people didn't submit entries because the rules kept changing.
I didn't submit an entry because the contest was agreed on before any real answers had been given in regard to the things Id need to design against, or if the things I had mentioned were at all close to being effective at what I thought they would be effective at.
There is absolutely no question that other people have better system mastery than me. That is all such a contest would have proven in my regard, which is beyond the point of this thread.
It was my intention to design a build that works, step by step, until I succeed against any wizard or reach a point where I cant be fully protected. That's what a wizard gets him: an extremely customizable set of skills.
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I just re-read drakainia, and cant get it to birth a Guardian Dragon (it caps at large).
Instead, I will gate in an Abyss Gigas in the prep week, and take it instead. It's humanoid to boot, so the vestigial arms aren't necessary.
It's blindsight is 100 ft, and I will have to rely on simulacra of guardian dragons to use the alarm feature if the opponent is invis/mindblanked.
the stat change is minor, and it is still gargantuan sized. However, this does mean another update will be necessary (also will have to get rid of Eagle Eyes)
Though I suppose a simulacrum of a Guardian Dragon may be a valid target for Magic Jar (has that been agreed upon?). Somebody might chime in with what they think is better.
The Fighter will always lose because it can never produce as many Simulacrums as the Wizards can. Seriously 3 a day is chump change for a Wizard. At best it can avoid combat indefinitely. And should the Fighter actually even temporarily reveal their location (even approximate location), they will probably not survive the round.
How many can the wizard produce? If I can slaughter them as quickly as you produce them, it doesn't really matter, does it?
My range increment is 1100 feet (that's to not have any penalties for distance whatsoever), and will slaughter pretty much any creature in one shot as a standard action while untraceable.
My base attack was 46, damage near 800. Attacking flatfooted AC with no resource expenditure whatsoever.
So I can spend all of my mythic power on Vanishing Move, if all I have to deal with are mooks.
If I'm in the guardian dragon, I know as soon as something is within 1000 ft of me.
As soon as something is 120 ft away, I know exactly where it is and have no miss chance, regardless of mindblank/invisibility.
There isn't really a point to this thread anymore.
Last Sunday there was a big contest between to sides and one of the sides lost. Maybe if they hadn't passed it they could have won. Maybe if they'd instead tried to run it they could have won. But they didn't. So we already know who won that big contest last Sunday. And talking about what one side could have done is long past irrelevant already.
That was the other thread. Also, that "contest" was a sham.
How many can the wizard produce? If I can slaughter them as quickly as you produce them, it doesn't really matter, does it?
My range increment is 1100 feet (that's to not have any penalties for distance whatsoever), and will slaughter pretty much any creature in one shot as a standard action while untraceable.
My base attack was 46, damage near 800. Attacking flatfooted AC with no resource expenditure whatsoever.
So I can spend all of my mythic power on Vanishing Move, if all I have to deal with are mooks.
If I'm in the guardian dragon, I know as soon as something is within 1000 ft of me.
As soon as something is 120 ft away, I know exactly where it is and have no miss chance, regardless of mindblank/invisibility.
What matters is how many more they start with. Once you kill one (And reveal your location) you are probably dead. So how many you can kill is kind of irrelevant.
That was the other thread. Also, that "contest" was a sham.There isn't really a point to this thread anymore.
Last Sunday there was a big contest between to sides and one of the sides lost. Maybe if they hadn't passed it they could have won. Maybe if they'd instead tried to run it they could have won. But they didn't. So we already know who won that big contest last Sunday. And talking about what one side could have done is long past irrelevant already.
Look just because your team didn't win the big game doesn't mean you can blame your teams loss on the referee calls. The fact that they passed it, when they should have run it is entirely the teams fault. You know?
How does killing one reveal location? You can only start off with so many, and a 1000x1000x5000 space is a pretty large space to spam with finite buddies.
Remember, now that somebody has been kind enough to actually have a discussion with me, I could give thought to getting Greater Invisibility.
I get it for, at base with only a bead and an ioun stone, 29 rounds per mythic power spent via Vanishing Move.
During that time, I'm untraceable except for a stray area effect dispel/mages disjunction that gets through my spellbane.
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Your posted build had telepathic bonds, so you couldn't have had mind blank running. If you ever showed your face, it would have been curtains for you at pretty much anywhere on the field, and one of your jar wielding friends would reveal your next location -- while you were still getting ready to make a transfer.
I haven't been designing against your build, but I don't see how it would have done super well.
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Are you purposefully inflammatory, or can you just not tell the difference?
Look just because your team didn't win the big game doesn't mean you can blame your teams loss on the referee calls. The fact that they passed it, when they should have run it is entirely the teams fault. You know?That was the other thread. Also, that "contest" was a sham.There isn't really a point to this thread anymore.
Last Sunday there was a big contest between to sides and one of the sides lost. Maybe if they hadn't passed it they could have won. Maybe if they'd instead tried to run it they could have won. But they didn't. So we already know who won that big contest last Sunday. And talking about what one side could have done is long past irrelevant already.
I think youre confusing Super Bowl 49 with Super Bowl 40.
I also think the lack of a Fighter entry was because everyone thought "Someone else will do it." And someone else never did. likewise, you said previously in this thread that builds don't matter. I commend you for finally producing one, but I think the fighter crowd has at least proven thatthe fighter can stand a chance, at the very least.
it also appears that some people were having some fun theory crafting in this thread until someone showed up and told them not to bother because the wizard has already won forever.
Look just because your team didn't win the big game doesn't mean you can blame your teams loss on the referee calls. The fact that they passed it, when they should have run it is entirely the teams fault. You know?That was the other thread. Also, that "contest" was a sham.There isn't really a point to this thread anymore.
Last Sunday there was a big contest between to sides and one of the sides lost. Maybe if they hadn't passed it they could have won. Maybe if they'd instead tried to run it they could have won. But they didn't. So we already know who won that big contest last Sunday. And talking about what one side could have done is long past irrelevant already.
My "team" is the legit recognition of martial/caster disparity. My position as stated from the beginning is that the fighter will lose. That doesn't mean I think the fighter should throw the contest, and that doesn't mean that I have to recognize a biased contest as impartial.
The contest was a sham, and that's a shame because the issue needs to be addressed, but you can't demonstrate it with a fixed game.
Say, BigDTBone, while you're poking back into this thread, any advice on the fighter end?
And yeah, disparity is *real*. I don't know how feasible it will be to remove much from 20 levels and 10 MT.
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Its also pretty telling that a single simulacrum of an Pleroma Aeon, using the rules we are working with at the moment, is likely stronger than a level 18 cohort from leadership.
Look just because your team didn't win the big game doesn't mean you can blame your teams loss on the referee calls. The fact that they passed it, when they should have run it is entirely the teams fault. You know?That was the other thread. Also, that "contest" was a sham.There isn't really a point to this thread anymore.
Last Sunday there was a big contest between to sides and one of the sides lost. Maybe if they hadn't passed it they could have won. Maybe if they'd instead tried to run it they could have won. But they didn't. So we already know who won that big contest last Sunday. And talking about what one side could have done is long past irrelevant already.
My "team" is the legit recognition of martial/caster disparity. My position as stated from the beginning is that the fighter will lose. That doesn't mean I think the fighter should throw the contest, and that doesn't mean that I have to recognize a biased contest as impartial.
The contest was a sham, and that's a shame because the issue needs to be addressed, but you can't demonstrate it with a fixed game.
I haven't seen a single valid complaint about the rules used. And certainly not anything that I wouldn't have more to complain about.
I haven't seen a single valid complaint about the rules used. And certainly not anything that I wouldn't have more to complain about.
It is pretty evident that there is no RAW way to run simulacrum, so if that spell is shifting class balance then that is the fault of the GM, and the game for writing such a non-RAW runnable spell.
I haven't seen a single valid complaint about the rules used. And certainly not anything that I wouldn't have more to complain about.It is pretty evident that there is no RAW way to run simulacrum, so if that spell is shifting class balance then that is the fault of the GM, and the game for writing such a non-RAW runnable spell.
"Oh, you're wrong ! If Simulacrum is so powerful, it's because GM are not able to use it the way I imagine. It's certainly not the developers' fault for not clarifying it for 10 years".
Honestly, the way developers handled the threads and questions about Simulacrum have always bugged me.
Poster : "What do the creature gain or lose during simulacrum ?"
Dev : "That's the DM to decide. If it's too strong, it's the DM's fault !"
I believe I will make a FAQ thread about Simulacrum with all the questions relevant and not accept "No answer required", "As you want" or "That's the DM's job to decide" as an answer.
I haven't seen a single valid complaint about the rules used. And certainly not anything that I wouldn't have more to complain about.It is pretty evident that there is no RAW way to run simulacrum, so if that spell is shifting class balance then that is the fault of the GM, and the game for writing such a non-RAW runnable spell.
I have 0 problems running it RAW. It's phenomenally overpowered RAW, but that's the point.
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I have 0 problems running it RAW. It's phenomenally overpowered RAW, but that's the point.I haven't seen a single valid complaint about the rules used. And certainly not anything that I wouldn't have more to complain about.It is pretty evident that there is no RAW way to run simulacrum, so if that spell is shifting class balance then that is the fault of the GM, and the game for writing such a non-RAW runnable spell.
The only way you have no problems is if you don't run it.
That or RAW means "What Anzyr thinks is right".
That or RAW means "What Anzyr thinks is right".
You realize that you're doing the same, right ?
What you believe Simulacrum should do and what Anzyr believe Simulacrum do are different interpretations of the spell.
By reading it RAW, Anzyr is right though, and that's the main issue with the spell.
If a mythic character (for example a wizard 15/mythic 7, such as one you could play in Wrath of the Righteous) does a simulacrum of itself, what does the simulacrum looks like ?
Wizard 7 ? Wizard 7/Mythic 7 ? Wizard 7/Mythic 3 ?
If you make a simulacrum out of a troll, do you keep its regeneration ? Does it keep the same numbers or does it regenerate half as much ? Does it prevents it from dying at 0 hp ?
What about DR, energy resistances, racial spell-like abilities not linked to HD, racial spellcasting abilities (such as the planetar's or dragons') ?
What about special attacks ? Does simulacrum just lower the DC (by having lower HD) or does it prevent the existence of such attacks (bodak's death gaze or medusa's flesh to stone for example) ?
What about the size of the simulacrum ? Its Str/dex/con/... ?
All of those questions are without answers officially (not rules, not errata, not FAQ replied).
RAW, simulacrum allow you to create a simulacrum of a creature. That simulacrum has half HD (which means that HP, skill ranks, feats, class abilities linked to HD and race abilities linked to HD are halved/deleted). It does nothing to mythic abilities, non-HD linked abilities, size or anything else.
You realize that you're doing the same, right ?
What you believe Simulacrum should do and what Anzyr believe Simulacrum do are different interpretations of the spell.
What part of, "there is no RAW way to run it" translates to "this is how it should be run RAW"?
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The thing is, there is a RAW way to run it. It's just so ludicrously overpowered that it might look like it doesn't exist.
What part of, "there is no RAW way to run it" translates to "this is how it should be run RAW"?You realize that you're doing the same, right ?
What you believe Simulacrum should do and what Anzyr believe Simulacrum do are different interpretations of the spell.
But there IS a RAW way to run it as RAW meaning Rule As Written, and rules of the simulacrum being written.
The problem goes for what's NOT written, but SHOULD be explained to prevent abuse.
For example : interaction with mythic, with non-HD related race abilities (spell-like, special attacks, DR, energy resistances, regeneration, fast healing, ...).
As written (or RAW), Simulacrum does not halve those (they are not HD-related). However, we all see that it leads to a lot of abuse, so it shouldn't allow to keep all of them.
That's why an official list of what you can keep, what you must halve and what is not kept should be released. So that the spell is not either full of abuse or so nerfed by DM that it become near useless.
The problem can be even greater in PFS situations, where Lesser simulacrum can be used (it is PFS legal) and have the same problems than Simulacrum except the spellcasting and spell-like abilities.
But there IS a RAW way to run it as RAW meaning Rule As Written, and rules of the simulacrum being written.What part of, "there is no RAW way to run it" translates to "this is how it should be run RAW"?You realize that you're doing the same, right ?
What you believe Simulacrum should do and what Anzyr believe Simulacrum do are different interpretations of the spell.
Not with this sentence: "A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities."
No that doesn't necessarily mean just no permanent changes to the stat block (even if it did, now define permanent), and it doesn't mean no level increase because "A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum." That sentence would not be needed, since nothing but the increasing power clause prevent HP gain.
It is up to the GM to decide what is, "become more powerful".
We're not just talking about what abilities the snow-cone can have, we are also talking about what it can do. That line could mean nothing or it can mean that the snow-cone can't wear items or flank.
All spellcasting and special abilities on creature's without class levels comes from racial HD. You can't decouple those without pointing to the creature type or subtype and seeing the ability listed there. There is no arguing that. If you "disagree" that is just you making up rules and ignoring whole sections of the bestiary.
The spell is a 2e relic. 2e commonly used the phrase, "ask your GM for details" throughout the player rules. There is no RAW and there never will be. Paizo is unlikely to ever clarify it because then simulacrum would have to be taken into consideration for all future monster design.
All spellcasting and special abilities on creature's without class levels comes from racial HD. You can't decouple those without pointing to the creature type or subtype and seeing the ability listed there. There is no arguing that. If you "disagree" that is just you making up rules and ignoring whole sections of the bestiary.
No, they can also come from the creature itself and from its type.
For example, a dragon have an Age category. Age category gives more HD, but it also gives more strength, spell-like abilities, size, DR and spellcasting abilities (as a sorcerer).
When you make a simulacrum of a ancient dragon. What do you keep ? The spell tells you get half HD (so, half HP, half skill ranks, half feats, etc...).
But the size, spell-like abilities, DR and spellcasting abilities and stats increase/decrease are not tied to HD, they are tied to age Category (and Age category is not halved).
The same goes for a lot of creature. RAW, there are very few HD related powers gained by creatures. I can think of some Archetypes that grants a few (celestial for example). But most are tied to the creature itself, not its HD.
For example : if you were to make a simulacrum of a bodak (from Bestiary 2), what would you do ? RAW, you halve its HD and applies that to everything.
It means 42hp instead of 85, little less in each saves, little less attack bonus/CMB/CMD, the loss of 2 feats, the loss of half ranks and a death gaze DC 15 instead of 18.
Everything else is not tied to HD.
The spell is a 2e relic. 2e commonly used the phrase, "ask your GM for details" throughout the player rules. There is no RAW and there never will be. Paizo is unlikely to ever clarify it because then simulacrum would have to be taken into consideration for all future monster design.
We are not talking about 2e edition here, but Pathfinder.
RAW, there are very few HD related powers gained by creatures.
You need to read the rules.
That or you have read the rules and refuse to believe them. Either way this conversation is over.
RAW does not outline exactly how they are related. RAW does say they are related. So in no realm of RAW are few abilities related.
The mathy bit of this is back a few posts...
My Init isn't great, as I'm not optimizing it at all (yet anyway). I have a readied action to teleport out of the starting area that gets rid of the need for this (I think). If I need to think harder about this I will... I realize now that Eagle Eyes doesn't do anything in the current build, so I could grab some initiative boosts if you can eradicate me in the starting area before I leave .
The dragon plays into the mind blanked/invisible game. The Aura's range turns a random 3d search to a random 1d search. Once I've noticed something, I know it's vaguely 1000 ft away in a hemisphere in the direction of travel. It doesn't work perfectly though, as noted.
My walking around (unbuffed) damage is 736 attacking flat footed with 46 attack bonus on a standard action.
With 4 mythic power (swift vanishing move, 2xunstoppable strike, foebiting), damage is doubled, and I attack flat footed touch AC without your deflection bonus.
I can still increase size , or use gravity bow. Either of those would increase damage by a factor of 1.5. I also haven't used deadly aim or arcane strike in my calculation.
Being within Blindsight range (120 ft) deals with Mirror Image, and being 120 ft away keeps me out of pretty much everything but IP and Forbiddance. However, if you're visible in blindsight range, I claim that you actually do perish in one blow.
The Magic Jar question is being addressed now in another thread. Assuming it works, how much HP can you get?
RAW, there are very few HD related powers gained by creatures.You need to read the rules.
This applies to you, not me.
Here are the only HD related powers that creatures get that I can think of : Celestial, fiendish, entropic and resolute creature (Energy resist and aligned DR are HD related for those creatures).
There are none other that are HD related that I know of.
That or you have read the rules and refuse to believe them. Either way this conversation is over.
You're being a jerk here. Not agreeing with you is different than not reading the rules or refusing to believing them.
The monster advancement rules explains what happens when you add hit dices to a creature. Reverse engineering it could explain what happens when you halve a creature HD.
RAW does not outline exactly how they are related. RAW does say they are related. So in no realm of RAW are few abilities related.
RAW doesn't say they are related unless you quote a rule that says so. Unfortunatly, I don't know of one.
EDIT : actually, I've found that special abilities are tied to the creature concept and not to the creature HD.
HERE
Step 8: Special Abilities and Qualities
Monsters are different from characters in that they can have all sorts of different special abilities and qualities. Each of these is tied closely to the creature's concept, allowing it to fill a specific role in the game. For examples, look at monsters in this book. Monsters should use abilities from the Universal Monster Rules whenever possible, instead of creating new yet similar abilities—when you do create new abilities, use the Universal Monster Rules as a template for how to present and create the new abilities.
Most special abilities that cause damage, such as breath weapons, give a save (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will depending on the ability). The DC for almost all special abilities is equal to 10 + 1/2 the creature's Hit Dice + a relevant ability modifier (usually Constitution or Charisma depending on the ability). Special abilities that add to melee and ranged attacks generally do not allow a save, as they rely on the attacks hitting to be useful.
Special senses and resistances to certain energy types are common in creatures of CR 5 and lower. Damage reduction, energy immunities, and regeneration are more common in creatures above CR 5. Spell resistance and immunities become more common above CR 10. As a general rule a creature's spell resitance should equal its CR + 11.
I think I remember some DCs that scale off of HD, but Avh has the right of it here. Also the creature type will direct you how to modify base saves/skills/feats in regard to HD.
Any special ability, that doesn't scale off of HD explicitly, is unaffected by the simulacrum spell as written. House rules, I believe, are implicitly encouraged... But that is neither here nor there in this discussion.
I think I remember some DCs that scale off of HD, but Avh has the right of it here. Also the creature type will direct you how to modify base saves/skills/feats in regard to HD.
You're totally right.
Every non-spell ability that has a DC follow the formulae : DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + stat modifier (except for some mythic or prestige class ability, that use mythic tier or prestige level instead of 1/2 HD).
(example : dragon breath are DC 10 + 1/2 HD + constitution, when most spell-like abilities are DC 10 + 1/2 HD + charisma).
Those DC would be affected by the fact you have half the HD (such as what I did with the bodak a few posts above, reducing its DC by 3 because the bodak went from 10 HD to 5).
Any special ability, that doesn't scale off of HD explicitly, is unaffected by the simulacrum spell as written. House rules, I believe, are implicitly encouraged... But that is neither here nor there in this discussion.
Except that it shouldn't be a houserule, but a clear rule.
Dem rules
"Adding Racial Hit Dice
Adding racial Hit Dice to a monster is a similar process to building a monster from scratch. As additional Hit Dice are added, other abilities increase in power as well. Additional Hit Dice usually results in better attack bonuses, saves, hit points, and skills, as well as more feats. It can also include additional spellcasting capability and other powers."
As the only line that explains where those abilities come from, it is the assumed default.
"oh well all genies cast wish" Nope. No genie creature type that says they get that ability.
"oh well all efreeti can cast wish" Nope. No HD-less efreeti entry. The ability comes from HD, it is unknown if a snow-cone would keep it.
"Oh but the race grants it!" The race has HD. The listed creature types don't grant the ability. Quit making up creature types and rules that don't exist just so you can say snow-cone wish factories are RAW.
"oh well all efreeti can cast wish" Nope. No HD-less efreeti entry. The ability comes from HD, it is unknown if a snow-cone would keep it.
It doesn't come with HD, as genie HD are outsider HD and those doesn't grant Wishes.
The outsider type doesn't grant wish.The extraplanar subtype doesn't grant wish.
The Fire subtype doesn't grant wish.
The only possible way that it gained wish is because of the concept of the creature itself. That means it is not HD-related.
I quote : "Monsters are different from characters in that they can have all sorts of different special abilities and qualities. Each of these is tied closely to the creature's concept, allowing it to fill a specific role in the game."
Concept is independant from HD, and by such not halved by simulacrum.
Quit making up creature types and rules that don't exist just so you can say snow-cone wish factories are RAW.
You are the one that make up rules, not me.
Concept is independant from HD, and by such not halved by simulacrum.
Rules citation or was that RAI?
You're the one trying to define concepts in RAW terms, so it is on you to find the rules for that.
It is entirely natural to assume that all abilities of the creature operate at approximately half power (that's how I'd probably run it, in fact) -- fixed bonuses divided by two, half variable dice, etc... Stats would likely remain similar (maybe -1 for ever 4 HD lost)
If you, for instance, halve CL and remove SLAs that can't be cast at this reduced caster level, many problems vanish instantly.
However, that is a house rule.
Ideally, it would be handled officially... But problems with that have been mentioned as well.
Rules citation or was that RAI?
HD are well explained in the rules : they grant HP, BAB, base save bonus, skill ranks, feats (every other HD) and ability bonus (every 4 HD).
Wish isn't listed on what you gain directly from HD, and doesn't come from something based on HD (such as celestial creature).Type are well explained in the rules : they define the number of skill ranks and HP that each HD grants (for example D10 and 6+int for outsiders), their BAB and base save progression, and a list of other things (can be immunities, can be proficiencies, etc...).
Outsider grants D10 HP, full BAB, two strong saves, 6+INT skill ranks per level, a list of class skills, darkvision 60ft, proficiencies, no need to sleep or eat and the impossibility to use some spells on them to raise them from the dead.
Wish isn't granted by Outsider type, but efreets do get everything coming from the Outsider type (D10 HD, 6+INT, full BAB, strong will and reflex, darkvision).
Subtypes are well explained in the rules : they grant special abilities or modify some powers the creature might have or be targetted with.
Extraplanar subtype is a subtype acquired when a creature is outside their homeplane. It makes them vulnerable to banishment.
Wish isn't granted from Extraplanar subtype.
Fire subtype grant fire immunity and vulnerability to cold.
Wish isn't granted from Fire subtype, but the Efreet does gain fire immunity and vulnerability to cold from it.
Concept is described as the way to grant abilities. So the only possibility is Concept.
The addition of all those things define the CR of the creature.
If you, for instance, halve CL and remove SLAs that can't be cast at this reduced caster level, many problems vanish instantly.
Spell-like abilities doesn't have a CL prerequisite.
For example, the Efreet has a CL of 11, yet gains access to Wish.
Ideally, it would be handled officially... But problems with that have been mentioned as well.
I wouldn't have a problem if a developer finally stepped out of silence and made a clear statement about how that spell works (not how that developper make it works, but how it's intended).
The thing is it didn't happen the last 10 years, and probably never will.
Rules citation or was that RAI?<Not rules citations>
I quoted rules saying spellcasting and other powers were related to HD.
You quoted rules saying abilities were related to creature concepts.
You did not quote rules defining what a concept is to uncouple spellcasting and other powers from HD.
Therefore, the default option stands, spellcasting and other powers are related to HD.
Rules citation or was that RAI?<Not rules citations>I quoted rules saying spellcasting and other powers were related to HD.
You quoted rules saying abilities were related to creature concepts.
You did not quote rules defining what a concept is to uncouple spellcasting and other powers from HD.
Therefore, the default option stands, spellcasting and other powers are related to HD.
Rules regarding HD :
Spoiler:Step 3: Hit Dice The next step in creating a monster is to determine the approximate number of Hit Dice it has. Hit Dice determine a wide variety of other statistics, including the creature's feats, skills, hit points, attack bonuses, and special ability DCs.A creature's total number of Hit Dice depends on a number of factors, but the two most important are its CR and its type. Table: Creature Hit Dice lists the average number of Hit Dice for each creature type, depending on its CR. While many of the monsters in this book are close to these values, some are not. This is because they have higher or lower average hit points to balance out their Armor Class or resistances.
Rules regarding creature types :
Spoiler:Creature Types Each creature has one type, which broadly defines its abilities. Some creatures also have one or more subtypes. A creature cannot violate the rules of its subtype without a special ability or quality to explain the difference—templates can often change a creature's type drastically.
Outsider :
Spoiler:An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. An outsider has the following features.Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
- d10 Hit Dice.
- Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
- Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
- Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
- Darkvision 60 feet.
- Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
- Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
- Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
Extraplanar subtype
Spoiler:Extraplanar Subtype: This subtype is applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have it when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, or the Plane of Shadow.
Fire subtype
Spoiler:Fire Subtype: A creature with the fire subtype has immunity to fire and vulnerability to cold.
See ? None of them describes powers linked to HD.
However, you can say powers should be linked to CR, as CR is the synthesis of HD, Type and powers.
Spoiler:Monster Creation Creating a monster is part science and part art. While most monsters follow a general pattern of their overall power and abilities as related to their Challenge Rating (CR), there are many exceptions. Some monsters, for example, have significantly more hit points or a higher AC than the average for their CR, but make up for this advantage by being weak in other areas. Other monsters have significantly higher average damage, but have a lower attack bonus.
Except that CR is not modified by simulacrum by such, only its HD and HD related stuff.
<irrelevant rules citations>Rules citation or was that RAI?<Not rules citations>I quoted rules saying spellcasting and other powers were related to HD.
You quoted rules saying abilities were related to creature concepts.
You did not quote rules defining what a concept is to uncouple spellcasting and other powers from HD.
Therefore, the default option stands, spellcasting and other powers are related to HD.
Go ahead and find where the RAW of creature concept is defined.
Until then you have no RAW means to decouple HD from spellcasting and other powers, since there are rules tieing them together. Rules that have been cited.
<irrelevant rules citations>Rules citation or was that RAI?<Not rules citations>I quoted rules saying spellcasting and other powers were related to HD.
You quoted rules saying abilities were related to creature concepts.
You did not quote rules defining what a concept is to uncouple spellcasting and other powers from HD.
Therefore, the default option stands, spellcasting and other powers are related to HD.
Go ahead and find where the RAW of creature concept is defined.
Until then you have no RAW means to decouple HD from spellcasting and other powers, since there are rules tieing them together. Rules that have been cited.
i'd say each specific concept is defined in it's statblock by what abilities it has. by RAW it has them, by RAW anything not from another source must be from concept.
Go ahead and find where the RAW of creature concept is defined.
Until then you have no RAW means to decouple HD from spellcasting and other powers, since there are rules tieing them together. Rules that have been cited.
My quotations were to prove that no special abilities come from HD, type and subtype. HD have an influence on special abilities DC, that's all.
Here is the "definition" of concept :Step 1: Concept
The first step in creating a new monster is to define its concept and role in the game. Generally, this involves picking the monster's CR, type, physical appearance, and manner of fighting. Once you have these basic pieces of information, you should find a number of similar monsters of the same type and roughly the same CR for comparison purposes.
In english : what is concept ? It is the form, the powers and the relative strength of the creature.
Part of the power of the creature (CR) comes from its type (outsider, undead) and from its HD (resistance, skill). Every other part is independant, and by such come directly from concept.On an outside note :
i'd say each specific concept is defined in it's statblock by what abilities it has. by RAW it has them, by RAW anything not from another source must be from concept.
""Adding Racial Hit Dice
Adding racial Hit Dice to a monster is a similar process to building a monster from scratch. As additional Hit Dice are added, other abilities increase in power as well. Additional Hit Dice usually results in better attack bonuses, saves, hit points, and skills, as well as more feats. It can also include additional spellcasting capability and other powers."BAM! Spellcasting and other powers related to racial HD.
You need to find an exception to that to say the ability is not related to HD by RAW.
i'd say each specific concept is defined in it's statblock by what abilities it has. by RAW it has them, by RAW anything not from another source must be from concept.""Adding Racial Hit Dice
Adding racial Hit Dice to a monster is a similar process to building a monster from scratch. As additional Hit Dice are added, other abilities increase in power as well. Additional Hit Dice usually results in better attack bonuses, saves, hit points, and skills, as well as more feats. It can also include additional spellcasting capability and other powers."BAM! Spellcasting and other powers related to racial HD.
You need to find an exception to that to say the ability is not related to HD by RAW.
You are not reading very thoroughly. You missed the keyword. "Can".
Unfortunately that "can" is very rare, being restricted to only a few creatures and templates.
By there's plenty of proof that Efreets SLAs aren't tied to HD. Look at any advanced Efreets stat block and you'll see the SLAs are exactly the same. This is becoming inane.