Simulacrum is overpowered?!@? When did this happen?
==Aelryinth
What happens if you cast Time Stop within a Time Stop?
- My guess, it temporarily overrides the active Time Stop, possibly lasting longer, or if the roll is poor, actually ends before the previous casting would have.
Same spell, effects won't stack. The one with more duration remaining prevails.
==Aelryinth
Ok. I hate this, but it might work.
Mathius, this isn't something I'm considering for the sim free fight.
Start: assume win initiative (will look at this if needed)
I will have a scroll of wish in order to transport the following pre-generated Simulacra. I use it on my first initiative of dual initiative from the agile template.
-2 Blood Hags (one of whom is constantly affected by sharesister via a Pleroma Aeon)
-1 Winter Hag
-1 Guardian Dragon
-2 Pleroma Aeons (Affected by Heroic Challenge, Divine Simple Casting)
I proceed to ready an action to cast Mythic Augmented Time Stop when the wall of godly force falls. I bring each of these creatures with me into the time stop.
Every 3 Rounds, I order my coven to create simulacra of the following creatures: Aeon Pleroma, Guardian Dragon, Mythic Red Wyrm Dragon.
One of the original Pleroma uses Mythic Time Stop to bring the new Aeon, Guardian Dragon, and Mythic Red Wyrm Dragon into the Time Stop effect (this requires three castings, using up all mythic spellcasting from the original Pleroma).
The new Guardian Dragon uses Heroic Challenge on the new Pleroma.
The cycle continues, generating as many iterations of this that can be fit into the original 24 hours of the spell (as long as the hags can operate)
In the meanwhile, the Guardian Dragon and Mythic Red Wyrm Dragons mosy on over to the killing area, where they use their abilities to set up Augmented Mythic Cloudkill covering the entire 100x100x100 ft area.
This eliminates all creatures of 13 HD or less, no save and no SR.
That's almost every simulacrum that is worthwhile (up to 27 HD creatures)
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Thoughts?
I remember saying I could only reliably get 3 simulacra per day. That was just by my own hands.
I believe Adept's question still stands; How many times per day can you cast Simulacrum? Let's suppose you can have 6.5 days worth of them at the ready, so you can Gate them in (requiring concentration for 1 round per caster level) from your demiplane… How many is that?
EDIT:
If your entire strategy depends on a single spell, perhaps it's the spell that's overpowered, not the class itself.This is only if we assume no simulacrums. With Simulacrums, I have yet to see anything that will help you beat my build. Hence my lack of contribution.
Apart from the Divination school's flat initiative, I'm not sure any part of Anzyr's build is wizard-specific. Another spellcaster could do the same things.
Its effectively enough, I think. He could have his simulacra with Wish SLA s start bringing them in by the boatload, the same way he could have them exponentially increasing in the starting week. Its probably enough to do what he claims could be done.
I could probably design against Invisibility Purge if needed. I'm just trying to avoid the need.
Although, at best, you could only fit so many creatures into the 100x100x100 ft area. That's probably more limiting that the number you could theoretically wish in.
I believe Adept's question still stands; How many times per day can you cast Simulacrum? Let's suppose you can have 6.5 days worth of them at the ready, so you can Gate them in (requiring concentration for 1 round per caster level) from your demiplane… How many is that?
EDIT:
Apart from the Divination school's flat initiative, I'm not sure any part of Anzyr's build is wizard-specific. Another spellcaster could do the same things.If your entire strategy depends on a single spell, perhaps it's the spell that's overpowered, not the class itself.This is only if we assume no simulacrums. With Simulacrums, I have yet to see anything that will help you beat my build. Hence my lack of contribution.
My initial starting day values will be slightly lower due to my lack of inherent bonus and profane bonus to my INT which acquiring is part of my week prep. In 6.5 days (actually 13.5 days thanks to Fast Time Demiplane, also cast on day 1 of prep week almost immediately), I can cast Simulacrum 10 times a day*. Twice out of of my 7th level slots (which will take 12 hours) and 8 times out of my 9th level slots via Wish (which takes less then 1 minute). So technically I'm producing 10 in 1 day 48 seconds. But I'll still get 145 (the 5 comes from the fact that my first day prep has less slots and needs those slots for other things) in the prep week.
And no, any other caster could not do all of this (at least not in the same time frame or as efficiently). I mean Shamans could, but that's only because they can hijack the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. Well my Sorcerer build could do all of this better, but that sheet practically just reads "I win."
My initial starting day values will be slightly lower due to my lack of inherent bonus and profane bonus to my INT which acquiring is part of my week prep. In 6.5 days (actually 13.5 days thanks to Fast Time Demiplane, also cast on day 1 of prep week almost immediately), I can cast Simulacrum 10 times a day*. Twice out of of my 7th level slots (which will take 12 hours) and 8 times out of my 9th level slots via Wish (which takes less then 1 minute). So technically I'm producing 10 in 1 day 48 seconds. But I'll still get 145 (the 5 comes from the fact that my first day prep has less slots and needs those slots for other things) in the prep week.
And no, any other caster could not do all of this (at least not in the same time frame or as efficiently). I mean Shamans could, but that's only because they can hijack the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. Well my Sorcerer build could do all of this better, but that sheet practically just reads "I win."
I was wondering when Anzyr would show up and declare victory again. Took longer then expected, a little less then twelve hours since the last post it appears.
I think you might be underestimating the fighter that Adept_Woodright has brought in. I mean, look at this:
Start: assume win initiative (will look at this if needed)
I will have a scroll of wish in order to transport the following pre-generated Simulacra. I use it on my first initiative of dual initiative from the agile template.
-2 Blood Hags (one of whom is constantly affected by sharesister via a Pleroma Aeon)
-1 Winter Hag
-1 Guardian Dragon
-2 Pleroma Aeons (Affected by Heroic Challenge, Divine Simple Casting)
I proceed to ready an action to cast Mythic Augmented Time Stop when the wall of godly force falls. I bring each of these creatures with me into the time stop.Every 3 Rounds, I order my coven to create simulacra of the following creatures: Aeon Pleroma, Guardian Dragon, Mythic Red Wyrm Dragon.
One of the original Pleroma uses Mythic Time Stop to bring the new Aeon, Guardian Dragon, and Mythic Red Wyrm Dragon into the Time Stop effect (this requires three castings, using up all mythic spellcasting from the original Pleroma).
The new Guardian Dragon uses Heroic Challenge on the new Pleroma.
The cycle continues, generating as many iterations of this that can be fit into the original 24 hours of the spell (as long as the hags can operate)
In the meanwhile, the Guardian Dragon and Mythic Red Wyrm Dragons mosey on over to the killing area, where they use their abilities to set up Augmented Mythic Cloudkill covering the entire 100x100x100 ft area.
This eliminates all creatures of 13 HD or less, no save and no SR.
That's almost every simulacrum that is worthwhile (up to 27 HD creatures)
And that's during the fight using Mythic Time stop which lasts for several hours. I think a valid tactic would be for the Mythic Fighter to make Explosive Rune stacks (as mentioned upthread) and leave them sitting on a pedestal right in from of every Simmulacrum you brought. Since you are personally protected against Explosive Runes (I assume, I think that was discussed upthread) then the survivor of the explosion would be the Wizard, who get's targeted by the readied action to "Mythic Vital Strike the critter left standing". That could work.
The deeper darkness stagger is cool (good find btw) but doesn't work that well on the Mythic Fighter because Mythic Saves means he takes no effect from anything if he makes a save. I think he can reliably beat a DC 31 Fort save, especially with re-rolls.
Since Mythic Fighter can also reliably kill 1 simulcum each round (that's lowballing) then he has to survive for 145 rounds to kill you. That's a long time, but not really. He get's a free shot on anything that uses a spell or spell-like ability within reach or spend a Mythic Point to make a ranged attack so every time the Simulacra do the schtick potentially any of them within reach are going down and if mythic power is spent from far away I might add.
I think it was mentioned upthread that the Mythic Fighter Magic Jars into a Guardian Dragon. Just read that things stat-block and it's rough, rougher then the Harbringer Demon and actually not unique.
I still think the Mythic Fighter wins because he is Mythic and can duplicate Wizard tricks while also doing fighter stuff (FIGHTER SMASH!) and doing that mythically (FIGHTER SMASH SPELLS AND MONSTERS WITH 1K VITAL STRIKES! FIGHTER LAUGH AT PUNY MORTAL SPELLS).
Anzyr, I think we can agree that the wizard is very powerful but I'm just not seeing him outpower a Mythic 10 Fighter. Having played campaigns with Mythic rules I can tell you that they throw a lot of the precedents of normal pathfinder play out the window. Ask anyone who has played through Wrath of the Rightous, I'm sure most of them will agree. Also, as was mentioned upthread if your entire strategy is based around getting as many powerful simulacrum as possible then there is an issue with the spell itself.
What would be really funny is if your reach with your bow included all those simiulacra.
Then Mythic Combat Reflexes. The simulacra start to cast-
145 AoO's with arrows later, only the wizard is left alive...
==Aelryinth
Invisibility purge also doesn't cross into the ethereal plane, maybe a minor concern but could cause problems.
What would be really funny is if your reach with your bow included all those simiulacra.
Then Mythic Combat Reflexes. The simulacra start to cast-
145 AoO's with arrows later, only the wizard is left alive...
==Aelryinth
I think his reach isn't big enough to cover all those simulacra, and the ranged AoO requires a mythic point to be spent. Still, you can get reach out to 20 feat easy, and then if you combat patrol that become 40 all around. Again, I'm lowballing it but 40ft area of pain is pretty good, especiallly since there's no way anyhring can cast after a spell after that proc'ed concentration check or 90+.
You might be able to get around the mythic point requirement with snap shot. Yeah, that's a lot of deadly deadly arrows...
My AoOs are not insta-kill (not benefiting from Vital Strike), so at best (with many AoO and all hits) I could shut down movement/casting. Also, a bunch of my surety to hit against the wizard comes from MP expense. I'll almost certainly hit mooks, but without knowing for sure which is which I would need to spend a bunch of points.
Also, I'm no longer inhabiting a Guardian Dragon... I had to vacate the dragon in order to obtain the Mythic Agile Template (which can only be applied to non-mythic creatures via Guardian Dragon)
I've yet to decide on a replacement, though I'm leaning toward Mu Spore -- has 60 ft tentacle slap and is colossal (enough to cover 100x100x100 if Im in the middle -- wont do this for simulacra battle though). If somebody has a reason to avoid that, let me know? (it also has 240 ft blindsight, so it might be out of range of most Inv. Purges)
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The Mythic Cloudkill is admittedly only a single layer of long-duration magic that can be stacked in the area.
One might notice that the Wyrm Dragon's only utility in the previous discussion was to use Cloudkill. It may then be said that it was extraneous to the loop -- it doesn't really matter what is in the third slot, it could be *anything* -- or nothing, if needed.
For instance: Lets say a subset of the Pleroma only bring in a new Pleroma and a new Guardian Dragon. These new folks may continue the loop.
This leaves the Pleroma with one more casting of mythic Magic, drawn from the entire spell list of Wizards/Clerics at our leisure. Wizard spells with costly components are available at 8th level and below via SLA wish.
This fact might be useful.
Possible extra tactic: Pleroma with mythic Antimagic Field allowing only Transmutation, paired with another with a spellbane against AMF, Spellbane, Magic Jar and Cloudkill.
These two suckers populate the entire field, ensuring the end of Magic Jar on anything that has it active. These creatures then elect to dismiss their active abjuration with a readied action as Time Stop falls (kicking Magic Jar, then willingly dying to cloudkill)
An additional group could be waiting on the outside of the 100x100x100 starting area, waiting to cast Mythic Mages Disjunction at select Pleroma Aeon Pairs as they release their active spells to ensure maximum coverage.
As the Time Stop falls, I could have one reserve Aeon, who shuffled his initiative to be slightly slower than everyone else, recast Mythic Time Stop on me, so I could go inspect the field, now clear of Simulacrum Chaff, for the Wizard. Who is probably in a Minimus Containment somewhere close-by (has to be on the same plane) As it is almost certainly a non-protected item at this point, I take it out, place it in an area where the reserve Pleroma will use Mage's Disjunction.
My Fighter Skills then finally kick in, readying an action to annihilate whatever pops out of the binding as soon as it comes out.
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Thoughts?
- My Coven factory can churn out a sequence of 3 literally every 3 rounds. If I reach a point where I have enough Wyrm Dragons, the sequence reduces to 2.
- The Mythic Coven Factory is actually self-propagating: if you make the third slot a hag every once in a while, those hags actually can be new simulacra factories operating under a new 24 hour clock. All you need to do is eventually have one of your spare Pleroma Mythic folks bring you back into Timestop after the original run ends.
-- Note: any Mythic Hero with the right abilities, and complete disregard for propriety in rules, can do this. All I've really leveraged so far have been Divine Source (Time Stop and Miracle(Simulacrum)), Mythic Spellcasting, and 10 mythic Tiers (for augmented time stop). -- note, the Pleroma need to Magic Jar the Guardian Dragon for them to cast Augmented Time Stop. Hadnt specified that yet, though it would have also been needed for the requisite mythic power.
At this point, handing it off to the fighter is a nod to what I wanted it to be about all along.
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If someone wants to have a simulacra free discussion, Im still open to those as well. Actually, those are preferred.
My initial starting day values will be slightly lower due to my lack of inherent bonus and profane bonus to my INT which acquiring is part of my week prep. In 6.5 days (actually 13.5 days thanks to Fast Time Demiplane, also cast on day 1 of prep week almost immediately), I can cast Simulacrum 10 times a day*. Twice out of of my 7th level slots (which will take 12 hours) and 8 times out of my 9th level slots via Wish (which takes less then 1 minute). So technically I'm producing 10 in 1 day 48 seconds. But I'll still get 145 (the 5 comes from the fact that my first day prep has less slots and needs those slots for other things) in the prep week.
And no, any other caster could not do all of this (at least not in the same time frame or as efficiently). I mean Shamans could, but that's only because they can hijack the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. Well my Sorcerer build could do all of this better, but that sheet practically just reads "I win."
I was wondering when Anzyr would show up and declare victory again. Took longer then expected, a little less then twelve hours since the last post it appears.
I think you might be underestimating the fighter that Adept_Woodright has brought in. I mean, look at this:
Start: assume win initiative (will look at this if needed)
I will have a scroll of wish in order to transport the following pre-generated Simulacra. I use it on my first initiative of dual initiative from the agile template.
-2 Blood Hags (one of whom is constantly affected by sharesister via a Pleroma Aeon)
-1 Winter Hag
-1 Guardian Dragon
-2 Pleroma Aeons (Affected by Heroic Challenge, Divine Simple Casting)
I proceed to ready an action to cast Mythic Augmented Time Stop when the wall of godly force falls. I bring each of these creatures with me into the time stop.Every 3 Rounds, I order my coven to create simulacra of the following creatures: Aeon Pleroma, Guardian Dragon, Mythic Red Wyrm Dragon.
First things first, I already won. Posting a build to beat mine after the fact is kind of meaningless. Second of all, the rules for that particular encounter are the Simulacrums can't make other Simulacrums, otherwise I can make far far more then 145.
Anzyr. I have asked people to respond to my suggestions with the assumption that they can reconfigure their builds as needed.
So it is not meaningless. It is actually the point of this thread. I remember you claiming that a given build shouldn't matter for the wizard, so please: demonstrate whatever you want, any combination of abilities, that overcomes this.
That is what Mathius and I were doing in the non-simulacrum fight. We actually got a decent amount thought through.
-- Note, I haven't changed a single thing about the build since the discussion with Mathius, I've just been adapting tactics to account for sims.
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Huh. That was a rule buried down in the weeds that I overlooked (ah, it was discussed in PM and only revealed publically after the fight was dismissed - the point where Ive universally stopped reading that thread)
Rather than render discussion moot, I query,
What could you do if that rule were lifted?
Ill also look into design against the other route.
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totally separate initial strategy:
I could use Greater Spell Immunity on Shadow Evocation and Gr. Shadow Evocation (both actually offer SR), then Transfer Magic on a widened mythic AMF from a Wyrm Red Dragon. That would allow up to 5 full schools of Magic (there are only 8 total) the barred schools in my presence would be Evocation, Enchantment and, and Universal (Id transfer after the wish was used, while in the time stop)
Does that take care of invisibility purge?
I think you'll find that a 1000x1000x5000 ft space is pretty large to cover with < 200 folks. I'd be picking them off pretty quickly too.
Out of curiosity, what would you do if you could see the arrow to react to it? Is that a measure to track the fighter down after Magic Jar revival?
FYI, the blanket flat-footed condition only applied to non-mythic. Assuming your something templated, you can take immediate actions again.
I think a ricochet shot will still get through the EFS.
Note with Arrow Deflection you automatically deflect the first arrow/rd.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, both Deflect Arrows and the Shield Enchant that Aelryinth mentioned require you to be aware of the attack (which It appears that neither of us believe to be the case, but I was curious anyway)
If I have ricochet shot going, my arrow is interrupted by the sphere mid flight. It deals 1000+ damage, immediately shattering the effect. I then redirect it via ricochet to attack you again. I could redirect it to one more target.
As far as what being aware means, the Stealth rules give a clarification that an opponent is unaware if their perception check fails to beat my stealth check. As you only get perception if you could theoretically notice me, I think I can claim you are generally unaware of specific attacks.
I think that might be extensible to Immediate action responses to prevent the arrow in the first place (presumably you'd need to be aware of the attack -- but the argument presupposed this for purpose of theory)
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Also, what do you think of the AMF/Spell Immunity thing from a couple posts ago? Any counters to that that you can see?
I'd assume a regular spellbane for starters to cancel dispel/suppression tactics.
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What happens if I make a simulacrum of myself? Particularly in regard to the Legendary Item Special Ability? (Or is self-simulacrum not a thing in this match? -- regardless, curious of answer)
I would assume that the Simulacrum of the fighter would have the same abilities, but be bonded to the same item, and unable to use any of its powers unless they were touching it? It's never been clarified as to whether mythic ranks are halved, though the question has been asked. Logically, half your mythic ranks would be removed, in the order they were taken.
How does "Unstoppable Strike" match up against Foresight/Uncanny Dodge when it comes to hitting Flat-footed Touch AC (specifically the flat-footed part)?
The flat-footed bit actually comes from the general 10th Tier Trickster Path :
Supreme Trickster (Su): At 10th tier, whenever you make an attack roll against a non-mythic foe, that foe is treated as flat-footed, even if it has abilities that prevent it from being flat-footed. Once per round when you roll a natural 20 on an opposed skill check against a mythic foe, you regain one use of mythic power.
"Even if it has abilities that prevent it from being flat-footed."
It'd work, so long as target is non-mythic.
Unfortunately, with sim of Guardian Dragon, and the thread's accepted rules for sims, every player in the game can be mythic.
For completeness (as I might have conflated the two by not fully describing source documentation)
Unstoppable Strike : Resolves attacks against Touch AC for 1 MP, and will further deny Deflection bonus for an additional expense
Unstoppable Strike: This weapon bypasses all armor. The wielder can expend one use of legendary power when attacking to make the attack against touch AC. If she instead expends two uses of legendary power, the weapon also bypasses any deflection bonus to AC the target has.
where do I find information on this Guardian Dragon?
i would guess in one of the mythic books' monster sections
Its in bestiary 4, sorted by G.
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@Cuuniyevo: that's probably the sanest way to handle it. Technically though, it could be seen as a different creature (you won't accidentally get a Sim with a dream/nightmare/sending, after all), and a legendary item (at least with its current set of abilities) can only bond to one creature. I think an argument might be made that they start making legendary items at a rate of one ability per day.
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Question: x/day powers don't require sleep or rest, do they ? I can't find the rules citation one way or the other (though it's hinted at in barbarian rage threads)
When you picked your Legendary Item abilities though, they were locked. It doesn't make sense that the sim would be able to make their own and choose different abilities. That could fall under "becoming more powerful" because their abilities are being customized to the creator's whims. IF they were allowed to make a new legendary item at all, it could only be a replica of the original. At one point, James Jacobs said that he intended for there to be a Mythic Simulacrum spell that would be required to make any sim of a mythic creature. Strangely, that spell was never designed, but the original intent when making Mythic Adventures was for Simulacrum to just not work on mythic, due to complications like this. As it is, it either requires GM adjudication, or people can dig their heels in and say, "I can do anything I'm not specifically told I'm not allowed to do", which seems to be the modus operandi in this thread. ;P
Yeah, it's so fuzzy I'm not seriously considering it. I was curious what people thought though. I actually hope that the sim spell isn't an artifact factory, even if it is just one specific set of abilities on an artifact.
At the moment, I've realized that Mythic Time Stop will allow me to drag small groups of opponent creatures into my Time Stop (no SR, no Save). While I can't shut down 100s of creatures reliably, I can surely get 3ish comfortably (effectively slaughtering these with a readied action and ricochet shot). Then, with enough sims on my side in the Time Stop, I can just thin the herd down until nothing remains, then destroy all items, then destroy the opponents reinhabited body with the same tactic.
It would remain to be calculated what a sufficient number of sims would be.
Also, I question whether 'per day' abilities (like SLAs and metamagic rods) are replenished after 24 hours of apparent time.
If that is the case, I would regain the ability to cast Augmented Time Stop and have the time to create two additional simulacra every apparent day ad-infinitum. Friendly creations could then be brought in via augmented Time Stop from already created simulacra.
Once enough support had been garnered, I could bring in opponent creatures individually. I'd want to stick freshly brought in creatures with a Mage's Disjunction first and foremost. This can be accomplished by the proper placement of adjacent Spellbanes and teleportation prevention, along with mythic spellbreaker and cage enemy. This is necessary so that a mind jarred creature does not remain within the time stop effect after the death of the host.
Having infinite time to do this, there is literally no reason to rush to finish this.
Once all creatures are defeated, the items can be brought out and disjoined, as they are no longer in a creature's possession. Any bodies that pop out of the items could finally be brought into the Time Stop for destruction.
With infinite time, this procedure is accomplished on all planes of interest.
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I think this can be done without concern for fighter levels, as I don't really need anything from the fighter for it.
While I do leverage Cage Enemy and M. Spellbreaker, I'm not sure they are necessary (it simply eases my mind against general enemy response)
I'm not super happy to have reduced the answer to: win initiative, do caster things, win challenge... But that is something that mythic tiers let one do. I technically didn't even have the more dubious dip into the archmage or hierophant path.
I'm significantly more pleased with the work done without sims. Even though it was pretty exploitative, it didn't rely on an infinite loop.
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Thoughts?