Another question as to how things go:
You use a standard action to cast a spell. This provokes an attack of opportunity.
You use Emergency Force Sphere (is this EMF? -- cant recall what else the abbreviation might stand for). This provokes a second attack of opportunity (reading the second paragraph, which only cites when the opponent casts a spell - no limiting qualifiers to allow immediate spells through).
That's an AoO that'll crack Emergency Force Sphere, leaving the original AoO to crack the caster.
--- Also, reread the Wish and Wall of Suppression. Wish doesn't need line of effect or to be touching. Oops
Your simulacrum just needs to be out of 30 ft range.
You'll probably want to fallback on typical caster defenses, like mirror image, Project Image, quickened prismatic spheres protected from disjunction with spellbane, greater hostile juxtaposition. With mindblank up true seeing still doesn't help the fighter much. Leo doesn't have mythic blindfighting, maybe he should, I don't know, but mythic feats are a limited commodity even at tier 10.
Leo isn't exactly an endurance runner when it comes to in combat spell responses and he depends somewhat heavily on his posse from gate abuse to access wish or disjunction.
It's unfortunate but the way etherealness works in relation to invisibility purge isn't in the wizards favor currently, the caster will probably want to be in a same plane as the fighter, but at least your primary tactic of wall of suppression works across the boundary. Landing suppression might cause leo to retreat if he couldn't end the fight on his next turn, landing disjunction could be catastrophic. Leo works best actually in a non-arena format having superior stealth and hit and run abilities.
Other possibilities would be multiple simulacrums of yourself so the fighter needs to play whack-a-mole or follow Anzyr tactic of magic jar body hopping. I always thought of magic jar as was somewhat fragile but that could just be me.
~
@adept
I didn't notice but divine source doesn't list caster level (I've been going back and forth between that and legendary weapon and used the same calculation). From a strict raw perspective that is problematic...
Trimalchio: This is why Ive been using the lower option of the two by default. Technically, in order to be fully functional it has to be twice mythic Tier (because it is possible to have more Tiers than just character level/2). But if that's the case, all of my spells don't care about the wall of suppression at all.
Something tells me that'll get shot down, but its worth asking.
--
Question: what happens when 2 spellbanes are cancelled and a third is introduced to the fray?
Other possibilities would be multiple simulacrums of yourself so the fighter needs to play whack-a-mole or follow Anzyr tactic of magic jar body hopping. I always thought of magic jar as was somewhat fragile but that could just be me.
It's more like minesweeper. Except the mines and numbers are swapped.
Anzyr's Magic Jar is a liability IMO. If a magic jar is destroyed outside of range, things will go bad for Anzyr's wizard (I believe instant K.O.?). Steal/Sunder maneuvers would prove to be quite effective I think.
This would be true if I didn't have 4 targets thanks to Spirit Jars. Best of luck with that!
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Your kinda right...
All that needs to happen is for your body to be out of range when -any- of those 4 magic jars are destroyed, as per the spell stating that you return to your body, unless it is out of range.
So, in reality, all that needs to happen is to get ahold of your limp body and one of the magic jars. Where are you keeping your body again?
Huh. Techincally I can be 3.14 (arbitrary) lightyears away, and just keep shooting at a visible opponent until I roll a natural 20.
Limitless Range + Mythic Eagle Eyes. If I could squeeze in Mythic Far Shot, I'd actually have a pretty much assured hit too.
Sadly, I cant give up Mythic Blind Fight or other things to squeeze it in the fight, as its too easily defeated (invisibility). Pretty Cool though.
Emergency Force Sphere doesn't help---
just found this nugget in the CRB:
You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
Every attack I make treats the opponent as flat-footed. (10th mythic Tier, Trickster) No Immediate Action spells to defend.
Wearing magic items for more then 24 hours, such as stat boosters, is considered a permanent change to stats of the wearer. Making items to give you permanent boosts is making yourself stronger.
There is a significant amount of difference between spending gold to buy magic items, and spending half that amount of gold and using your own power to make magic items. One spends gold, and the other turns your power into permanent boosts. Simulacra cannot spend their power to become permanently more powerful.
temporary buffs and boosts and someone GIVING them magic items and gold are considerably different then them using their own power for permanent improvements. Sims can't do the latter.
==Aelryinth
Wearing magic items for more then 24 hours, such as stat boosters, is considered a permanent change to stats of the wearer. Making items to give you permanent boosts is making yourself stronger.
There is a significant amount of difference between spending gold to buy magic items, and spending half that amount of gold and using your own power to make magic items. One spends gold, and the other turns your power into permanent boosts. Simulacra cannot spend their power to become permanently more powerful.
temporary buffs and boosts and someone GIVING them magic items and gold are considerably different then them using their own power for permanent improvements. Sims can't do the latter.
1. So putting on and off the item every 23 hours makes it ok?
2. The spell doesn't say the snow-cone can't make itself more powerful. It says the snow-cone cannot get more powerful. It doesn't matter who is doing the power increases.
Your kinda right...
All that needs to happen is for your body to be out of range when -any- of those 4 magic jars are destroyed, as per the spell stating that you return to your body, unless it is out of range.
So, in reality, all that needs to happen is to get ahold of your limp body and one of the magic jars. Where are you keeping your body again?
** spoiler omitted **
I have 3 jars + my body. My body is subject to the Minimus Containment version of Binding and kept on a separate Tzitzimitl. So there's very little risk. If my body is destroyed I merely need to be in range of one of the jars or my body. If a single jar is destroyed nothing happens, since the focus is all three jars and the Fighter dies having wasted his time.
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I have 3 jars + my body. My body is subject to the Minimus Containment version of Binding and kept on a separate Tzitzimitl. So there's very little risk. If my body is destroyed I merely need to be in range of one of the jars or my body. If a single jar is destroyed nothing happens, since the focus is all three jars and the Fighter dies having wasted his time.Your kinda right...
All that needs to happen is for your body to be out of range when -any- of those 4 magic jars are destroyed, as per the spell stating that you return to your body, unless it is out of range.
So, in reality, all that needs to happen is to get ahold of your limp body and one of the magic jars. Where are you keeping your body again?
** spoiler omitted **
If one of the jars is destroyed, you return to your body, as per the spell. Not "nothing happens", just one jar has to be destroyed. It's what the spell explicitly says must happen. Each jar is a focus for an individual spell, not all three for all three spells. If any one is destroyed, that spell ends, and you must return to your body which ends all the magic jar spells (returning to your body ends the spell).
So, there's liability with Magic Jar.
I have 3 jars + my body. My body is subject to the Minimus Containment version of Binding and kept on a separate Tzitzimitl. So there's very little risk. If my body is destroyed I merely need to be in range of one of the jars or my body. If a single jar is destroyed nothing happens, since the focus is all three jars and the Fighter dies having wasted his time.Your kinda right...
All that needs to happen is for your body to be out of range when -any- of those 4 magic jars are destroyed, as per the spell stating that you return to your body, unless it is out of range.
So, in reality, all that needs to happen is to get ahold of your limp body and one of the magic jars. Where are you keeping your body again?
** spoiler omitted **
If one of the jars is destroyed, you return to your body, as per the spell. Not "nothing happens", just one jar has to be destroyed. It's what the spell explicitly says must happen. Each jar is a focus for an individual spell, not all three for all three spells. If any one is destroyed, that spell ends, and you must return to your body which ends all the magic jar spells (returning to your body ends the spell).
So, there's liability with Magic Jar.
Hrm... I guess I can't find anything that goes against that. Luckily, targeting the jars is still a waste of time since they won't be able to be targeted normally as they are in the possession of another creature. Sunder the wrong sack and you'll have just wasted an entire turn and revealed your location. And of course once an attempt to kill me fails, the enemy likely dies on the spot. And even if the jar is destroyed, at worst I'm forced into my body. Oh no. I'll have to possess a new body the following round. Of course the enemy will dead by then.
The legendary item spellcasting ability actually imparts those spells as spell like abilities to its wielder, with a CL of 2xMythic Tier. As the caster is the wielder, improvements on CL ought to work.
Divine Source can not just be 1xMythic Tier, or only half of the spells it gives you could ever work without items (you need at least CL = min CL to cast the spell for it to work) - that would be more horrendously poorly planned than I think the devs are capable of.
Im willing, though, as stated to accept character level. I don't think its right, but its the least powerful option that is reasonable.
Out of curiosity, are you using sharesister?
I should be able to use miracle to port myself. I'm the granting authority, and SLAs have no material component.
Seeing as I was planning on using that miracle anyway for a third simulacrum, I think this is ok. Im not terribly fond of them either, which is why I wasn't trying to use them for more than utility spells to break through defenses/defend against your buddies.
Your Insight Bonus from moment of prescience should work. I don't know how high Touch/Flat footed AC can get without custom items. Assuming medium size...
10+25 insight + ?? Luck + ?? Deflection + ?? Enhancement + ?? Profane + ?? Sacred + ?? (Other?)
Deflection can be ignored at greater expense, if a truly optimal AC can be found that is greater than base attack. I need to know what should be designed for, though. Go all out on me, even if it'll never show up on your build.
They should, though, reasonably be things you can have up all the time, or the greater majority of the time, but include the temporary things too if you want.
We'll go ahead and assume, for the sake of argument, that Sacred and Profane stack (as there is no RAW indication otherwise)
Not sure there are any enhancement bonuses to AC beyond armor and natural armor, but its included there just in case
It is obvious that simulacrums not getting more powerful is that they do not gain experience.
If you try to be like aelryinth you get really dumb situations
It cannot increase its level or abilities.
If the intent was just no experience, they wouldn't have added the 2nd qualifier to the spell description.
Could just mean age dependent progression like Dragons is impossible.
You'll probably want to fallback on typical caster defenses, like mirror image, Project Image, quickened prismatic spheres protected from disjunction with spellbane, greater hostile juxtaposition. With mindblank up true seeing still doesn't help the fighter much. Leo doesn't have mythic blindfighting, maybe he should, I don't know, but mythic feats are a limited commodity even at tier 10.
Another area the Barbarian fares better. Ultimate Clarity Rage Power can outright ignore mirror image, project image, and even mindblanked invisibility.
Spell Sunder Rage Power can outright dispel prismatic spheres, spellbane, and any other ongoing spell (like Simulacrum, making him more efficient at clearing them if they don't go down to a single attack).
With Dragon Totem Wings Rage Power, Barbarians can even power their own flight.
I'm thinking a non-mythic Level 20 Barbarian/Paladin Gestalt would be a fairly decent fight for a wizard. High saves, possibility of decent Initiative with Noble Scion/First Into Battle (too bad they no longer stack), immunity to Charms & Compulsions (so no Geas) and a ton of other useful abilities. Of course, the Barbarian would need to be a Bloodrager to get around alignment restrictions, but it's not like that's a bad thing.
Maybe somebody should organize a fight between the two. Perhaps we should restrict spells like Blood Money, Simulacrum, and Wish/Miracle, but in return we'd also bar the Bloodrager/Paladin from all spellcasting?
That way, we can get the two best martial classes actually relying only on martial skills to beat a powerful caster, rather than Mythic Artifacts or Mythic spellcasting on a supposed martial.
Hrm... I guess I can't find anything that goes against that. Luckily, targeting the jars is still a waste of time since they won't be able to be targeted normally as they are in the possession of another creature. Sunder the wrong sack and you'll have just wasted an entire turn and revealed your location. And of course once an attempt to kill me fails, the enemy likely dies on the spot. And even if the jar is destroyed, at worst I'm forced into my body. Oh no. I'll have to possess a new body the following round. Of course the enemy will dead by then.I have 3 jars + my body. My body is subject to the Minimus Containment version of Binding and kept on a separate Tzitzimitl. So there's very little risk. If my body is destroyed I merely need to be in range of one of the jars or my body. If a single jar is destroyed nothing happens, since the focus is all three jars and the Fighter dies having wasted his time.Your kinda right...
All that needs to happen is for your body to be out of range when -any- of those 4 magic jars are destroyed, as per the spell stating that you return to your body, unless it is out of range.
So, in reality, all that needs to happen is to get ahold of your limp body and one of the magic jars. Where are you keeping your body again?
** spoiler omitted **
If one of the jars is destroyed, you return to your body, as per the spell. Not "nothing happens", just one jar has to be destroyed. It's what the spell explicitly says must happen. Each jar is a focus for an individual spell, not all three for all three spells. If any one is destroyed, that spell ends, and you must return to your body which ends all the magic jar spells (returning to your body ends the spell).
So, there's liability with Magic Jar.
Why would the enemy likely be dead? If they're still invisible, then they're still undetectable and cannot be targeted by your simulacra. You might get lucky with aoe attacks, but it is not guaranteed that they will die. If you're forced into your jar, your visibility is reduced to 10ft per Caster Level, and you can only vaguely see the creatures around you. You can tell whether they're positively or negatively aligned, and if there's a 4HD power difference, but that's it. Will you have a suitable target in range to use your Magic Jar on? Even if you do, it's a full-round action with a chance of failure due to Will saves and SR, plus the possibility of the fighter having a protection from alignment spell in the area. Plenty of time for the fighter to make a getaway or strike another target.
While we're on the subject of Magic Jar, does it even work on Outsiders? Their soul and body are combined, so you shouldn't be able to push them into the jar while you take over the body. The Outsider Type specifically calls out that spells returning souls to bodies don't work on them unless it's with a Limited Wish, Wish, Miracle, or True Resurrection. It doesn't specifically call out Magic Jar, but if I were the GM, I'd rule that Magic Jar would have to be cast via Limited Wish, Wish or Miracle to work at all, and even then, it's a grey area requiring GM adjudication, just for the process of returning the 'soul' back to the Outsider's 'body' once you're done or cast out of it. Nothing about that context says anything about splitting the two in the first place by the initial casting of Magic Jar. As I'm not the one adjudicating this thought exercise, my own inclinations aren't hard rules of course, but I'm unaware of any official ruling on the matter. See this recent thread for some links to Outsiders with Magic Jar and how their stat blocks explain it, mostly due to being incorporeal or having a special 'Possession' ability in their stat block.
Also, if the magic jar is in a bag, he cant get out until it is taken out of the bag. You need line of effect to possess from the jar, as far as I can tell from the description. (This probably isn't a problem, but I thought it should be mentioned in case I misread)
If these guys are visible (betting they aren't), then I suddenly know each of the creatures holding magic jars.
As mentioned in ninja post, you need line of effect from jar to possessable creature.
While in the magic jar, you can sense and attack any life force within 10 feet per caster level (and on the same plane of existence). You do need line of effect from the jar to the creatures.
Don't think a line of effect from stomach will work. Being within sight of my fighter within < 500 ft is a bad idea.
You might have a round to get it through (though I could probably spare 1 simulacrum off of my legendary item for protection from evil, or I could use a simulacrum for a wish and have additional actions to attack). Ill think about how to do something about that if you want to pursue that idea more.
Why would the enemy likely be dead? If they're still invisible, then they're still undetectable and cannot be targeted by your simulacra. You might get lucky with aoe attacks, but it is not guaranteed that they will die. If you're forced into your jar, your visibility is reduced to 10ft per Caster Level, and you can only vaguely see the creatures around you. You can tell whether they're positively or negatively aligned, and if there's a 4HD power difference, but that's it. Will you have a suitable target in range to use your Magic Jar on? Even if you do, it's a full-round action with a chance of failure due to Will saves and SR, plus the possibility of the fighter having a protection from alignment spell in the area. Plenty of time for the fighter to make a getaway or strike another target.
All of my other Simulacrums will act after the Fighter (since they are sure to lose in initiative) at which point the Fighter will have to contend with a lot of no save damage on top of my "Totems".
Also, nothing in Magic Jar calls out outsiders as immune to it and nothing in the outsider block says they aren't subject to it. Therefore it works.
Edit @ Adept_Woodwright: The Fighter would have to kill a whole lot of simulacrums (assuming they even survive the round which is unlikely) to deprive me of a body.
Im not saying it is all done in one round. The fighter does not necessarily need to be anywhere near the creature it attacks to guarantee the kill. I have a build mostly put together with a little explanation earlier. (I don't have all of the items or stats yet. Ive been doing all of my numbers off of low-op stats (around 20, or 30-40 for things like STR/DEX) and feats/abilities.
How do the creatures, who likely have very little in the way of item support, find the undetectable fighter? The point is that the fighter can kill at least one visible opponent per round with very little danger to himself or expenditure of resources.
If the wizard is invisible/mindblanked, Ill have to get within 30 ft to even find him. All of his simulacra, likewise, need to be at the very least invisible (--edit: no, They also need to be mindblanked. I can easily have permanent see invisibility), or they are open game. When I find something, I can attack/kill. You probably wouldn't be able to rely on your simulacra knowing where to spam AoEs though, as they couldn't have had any idea where you were (beyond a telepathic link that does not really do much of anything for location in a featureless arena.)
Remember, andreww posted a rule that said that a stabbed creature would know he was stabbed, but not necessarily the square/direction from which the stab came.
How many simulacra can you get every day? I can only reliably get 3.
My last post against the Timeless demiplane + Time Stop went uncountered, so feel free to approach that one if you want. Even if you can convince me it works, that just means I trade one of my least important Domains/Subdomains to get it, then Ill have the exact same capability -- a simulacrum can nab Greater Demiplane.
The totems can be shut down with Mage's Disjunction, which the same simulacra can possess. These can also be flying around invisibly, mindblanked, with the sole purpose of destroying the items you scattered around the floor (maybe you have flying creatures holding them too?)
Looking into SLA, looks like using hit dice is the default when not listed:
"If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Charisma modifier."
Having circle protection or holy aura etc thwarts magic jar for the fighter. Leo currently uses a magic item to protect his soul.
What happens if one of the jars is hit by disjunction? I assume the caster returns to his body if line of effect exists. Another method might be to remove line of effect with a wall or sphere then destroy the body. Magic jar can be awesome, I just don't think its the most cautious of strategies, a lot of moving parts and if anything goes wrong then it's death no save.
Im not saying it is all done in one round. The fighter does not necessarily need to be anywhere near the creature it attacks to guarantee the kill. I have a build mostly put together with a little explanation earlier. (I don't have all of the items or stats yet. Ive been doing all of my numbers off of low-op stats (around 20, or 30-40 for things like STR/DEX) and feats/abilities.
How do the creatures, who likely have very little in the way of item support, find the undetectable fighter? The point is that the fighter can kill at least one visible opponent per round with very little danger to himself or expenditure of resources.
If the wizard is invisible/mindblanked, Ill have to get within 30 ft to even find him. All of his simulacra, likewise, need to be at the very least invisible (--edit: no, They also need to be mindblanked. I can easily have permanent see invisibility), or they are open game. When I find something, I can attack/kill. You probably wouldn't be able to rely on your simulacra knowing where to spam AoEs though, as they couldn't have had any idea where you were (beyond a telepathic link that does not really do much of anything for location in a featureless arena.)
Remember, andreww posted a rule that said that a stabbed creature would know he was stabbed, but not necessarily the square/direction from which the stab came.
How many simulacra can you get every day? I can only reliably get 3.
My last post against the Timeless demiplane + Time Stop went uncountered, so feel free to approach that one if you want. Even if you can convince me it works, that just means I trade one of my least important Domains/Subdomains to get it, then Ill have the exact same capability -- a simulacrum can nab Greater Demiplane.
The totems can be shut down with Mage's Disjunction, which the same simulacra can possess. These can also be flying around invisibly, mindblanked, with the sole purpose of destroying the items you scattered around the floor (maybe you have flying creatures holding them too?)
Only 3 Simulacrums per day? Man and my big issue was getting even more castings of Blood Money.
Looking into SLA, looks like using hit dice is the default when not listed:
"If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Charisma modifier."
Having circle protection or holy aura etc thwarts magic jar for the fighter. Leo currently uses a magic item to protect his soul.
What happens if one of the jars is hit by disjunction? I assume the caster returns to his body if line of effect exists. Another method might be to remove line of effect with a wall or sphere then destroy the body. Magic jar can be awesome, I just don't think its the most cautious of strategies, a lot of moving parts and if anything goes wrong then it's death no save.
It has cover so... it's not getting hit by Disjunction. Going to have to go sack by sack. And where are you getting the idea I want to possess the Fighter from? That's a waste of an action, since he'll be a corpse by the time I need a body.
As for knowing to target, my fighter can easily have permanent see invisibility and arcane sight. The arcane sight will let me know that a gem is radiating strong necromancy, and assuming it is in the open for you to have line of effect then I will have seen it from anywhere in the arena (Eagle Eyes) (unless it is on the person of an invisible/mind blanked wizard/companion)
There might be a way of having it in a bag until you die, then have it pop out (a familiar, maybe?). Still, if I'm limited to not have simulacra, I have 2 sets of 5 points on my item that are free to distribute, and protection from evil would be a sure get, and would persist in the wall of suppression.
Out of curiosity, how would you get regeneration? If it is through the magic jar, I would likely get a chance to figure it out based on what you look like (maybe?)
Walk through Space is a teleport type spell (forbiddance), and Ride the Lightning will drag all of your items through the wall of suppression. As custom items are right-out, all of your carried items are suppressed. Your spell-effects would persist.
I feel as though Phase-Locking is a sub-optimal choice for a weapon ability. I'll replace it with Dispelling Burst, and open up with a standard action (after miracle in) to activate my item. This would be 25 base + 3 sharesister from simulacrum + 5 enhancement = 33 + 1d20 + mythic 1d12. That's at least 35, at most 65, and generally 50. I think Dispel Magic is a caster level check, so it could be improved via items.
That's 7 of your high caster level spells that might just poof out, and you probably don't have a bunch active if you don't know when Id be coming after you.
Also, nothing in Magic Jar calls out outsiders as immune to it and nothing in the outsider block says they aren't subject to it. Therefore it works.
Magic Jar says:
Attempting to possess a body is a full-round action. It is blocked by protection from evil or a similar ward. You possess the body and force the creature's soul into the magic jar unless the subject succeeds on a Will save. Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again.
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar.
Outsider Type says:
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose.
So my contention stands: How do you split an Outsider's body from their soul and put it in your Magic Jar while you occupy their body? Their body and soul are the same thing and cannot be split unless you receive GM approval.
Yeah, I get three.
If all I need to do to stay safe is activate my greater invisibility, I can take out 23 (mythic power) * 28 (rounds per greater invisibility) = 644 enemies (simulacra, for example) each day with a standard action. I might not be targeting Touch AC on those guys, but odds are they don't have nice things for AC.
How many spells do you get each day, of sufficient level, to get simulacra with blood money? It's probably less than 644.
See why I asked the question?
No need to be so arrogantly dismissive, though I think you stopped listening to that sort of reminder a long time ago.
Also, nice job of addressing exactly none of my reply with an actual answer. Classy.
---
Cuuniyevo,
Huh, so technically Outsiders do have protection from Magic Jar written into their description. It's buried inside their type.
They could still use it though, they just wouldn't have a body left behind.
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Why would the enemy likely be dead? If they're still invisible, then they're still undetectable and cannot be targeted by your simulacra. You might get lucky with aoe attacks, but it is not guaranteed that they will die. If you're forced into your jar, your visibility is reduced to 10ft per Caster Level, and you can only vaguely see the creatures around you. You can tell whether they're positively or negatively aligned, and if there's a 4HD power difference, but that's it. Will you have a suitable target in range to use your Magic Jar on? Even if you do, it's a full-round action with a chance of failure due to Will saves and SR, plus the possibility of the fighter having a protection from alignment spell in the area. Plenty of time for the fighter to make a getaway or strike another target.All of my other Simulacrums will act after the Fighter (since they are sure to lose in initiative) at which point the Fighter will have to contend with a lot of no save damage on top of my "Totems".
Also, nothing in Magic Jar calls out outsiders as immune to it and nothing in the outsider block says they aren't subject to it. Therefore it works.
Edit @ Adept_Woodwright: The Fighter would have to kill a whole lot of simulacrums (assuming they even survive the round which is unlikely) to deprive me of a body.
Thats like saying Fear works on undead because Fear doesn't say it doesn't work on undead.
Thats like saying Fear works on undead because Fear doesn't say it doesn't work on undead.Why would the enemy likely be dead? If they're still invisible, then they're still undetectable and cannot be targeted by your simulacra. You might get lucky with aoe attacks, but it is not guaranteed that they will die. If you're forced into your jar, your visibility is reduced to 10ft per Caster Level, and you can only vaguely see the creatures around you. You can tell whether they're positively or negatively aligned, and if there's a 4HD power difference, but that's it. Will you have a suitable target in range to use your Magic Jar on? Even if you do, it's a full-round action with a chance of failure due to Will saves and SR, plus the possibility of the fighter having a protection from alignment spell in the area. Plenty of time for the fighter to make a getaway or strike another target.All of my other Simulacrums will act after the Fighter (since they are sure to lose in initiative) at which point the Fighter will have to contend with a lot of no save damage on top of my "Totems".
Also, nothing in Magic Jar calls out outsiders as immune to it and nothing in the outsider block says they aren't subject to it. Therefore it works.
Edit @ Adept_Woodwright: The Fighter would have to kill a whole lot of simulacrums (assuming they even survive the round which is unlikely) to deprive me of a body.
Fear does work. Mind-affecting doesn't.
I am not aware of any fear effect that is not Mind-affecting.
How does mind-blank interact with Telepathic Bond? I'm thinking it doesn't at all. You're immune to all divinations that gather information, even ones you want working.
So mind-blank + invisible + magic jar is not really a thing for me to design against. That's good to know.
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And I'm loving this thread again.
See, when people respect each other we can come up with all sorts of theory-crafting insanity! Cooperatively!
Also, nothing in Magic Jar calls out outsiders as immune to it and nothing in the outsider block says they aren't subject to it. Therefore it works.Magic Jar says:
Attempting to possess a body is a full-round action. It is blocked by protection from evil or a similar ward. You possess the body and force the creature's soul into the magic jar unless the subject succeeds on a Will save. Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again.
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar.
Outsider Type says:
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose.So my contention stands: How do you split an Outsider's body from their soul and put it in your Magic Jar while you occupy their body? Their body and soul are the same thing and cannot be split unless you receive GM approval.
still not RAW that you don't get their body.
a Soul without a body is an outsider, no?(at least if given substance on the material plane) if you swap with them you at least end up as some sort of outsider by definition, and it could easily be exactly the one you replaced since there is nothing else directing what your "body" would be.(just giving an explanation that allows for Magic Jar to still work RAW and fit lore)
A soul without a body is not an outsider, that is needless extrapolation.
The argument on either side is, from what I've seen:
Pro-Outsider Magic Jar: there is no explicit text that prevents magic jar from being used. Magic Jar is used, *magic happens*, and you get the form and stats of the target creature.
Anti-Outsider Magic Jar: the trait section of the outsider explicitly prevents the separation of body and soul of the outsider.
The contention is within the *magic happens* bit.
Let's approach it in order as it appears:
You cast the spell, target (outsider)
Your soul moves into a container jar
You attempt to possess target -assume success
You force the (outsider) soul into the gem.
--- unfortunately, body and soul are inseparable. You are back within the soul gem.
You cannot have two souls within the gem. Either the spell fails, or the outsider is expelled. Whatever the outcome, you aren't possessing the outsider --- edit, on second reading. The spell doesn't end, the outsider is expelled. It's not so much that you may return to the jar, but that you automatically do so, but it's effectively the same.
See the order of operations here?
A soul without a body is not an outsider, that is needless extrapolation.
well if you are a being that's body is comprised of it's soul, isn't that effectively an outsider?
That may be a reasonable interpretation of what an Outsider is, but that's not what you normally are when you use Magic Jar, regardless. You temporarily swap your body for a magical receptacle that becomes your 'new body', then swap again with someone else's body, sending their soul into your temporary magical receptacle. At no point do your body and soul become one unit. The link in my post further up the page has some more information on specific Outsider interactions. The gist of it is that because the designers felt the need to explicitly say there's an ability they can get which allows them to forgo a receptacle and possess another body directly, that means they wouldn't be able to do it if that wasn't specified or they didn't have that special ability.
I would like to say thank you to Mathius, by the way. Having a proper exchange of tactics and discussion is good to see, as Roan pointed out. =]
If we are talking about no pre buffs, then the fighter cannot have his armor on or any magical equipment on. Cannot be weilding a weapon.
Btw, the Wizard is naked and still wins.
Wait, what are you talking about, Rogar? The thread title alone, or some situation we've been discussing?
If, hypothetically, both people entered the arena naked with no prebuffs to begin with, the mythic Fighter could win hands-down, just by jumping up and down on the Wizard's head like they were a goomba. What would the Wizard fight with? They're not a spontaneous caster.
He still cast spells.
Still can cast some spells spontaneously. If that worries you.
He still cast spells.
Still can cast some spells spontaneously. If that worries you.
Preparing spells is as much of a buff as wearing gear.
So no, wizard loses.
Wizards can still cast some spells spontaneously. Its called prepared spell.
Wizards can still cast some spells spontaneously. Its called prepared spell.
Who says they get slots?
That sounds like prepping. More prepping than putting on magical gear.
A wizard either has slots open or prepared spells. That is it.