| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Balor can still use standard whip CMB maneuvers against creatures his own size. If the Planetar tries to sunder, it will provoke, not having the Improved Sunder feat.
Keep in mind also that both the whip and the sword are vorpal weapons.
Planetars fly, thus immune to tripping. Planetars with spells that aren't pulled out of a hat have freedom of movement. Meanwhile planetars have righteous might (makes them huge sized, gives them another +4 Str, +2 natural armor, etc) and divine power (which gives them a +5 to hit, damage, and CMB/CMD, as well as an extra attack like haste), which means that their CMB/CMD skyrockets easily enough (and they can actually very easily out-reach the balor so that the balor, who has no size-increasing things, can't do diddly against the angel tearing his weapons apart).
And that angel can most definitely tear a balor's weapons apart. Because as a huge-sized angel w/ divine power, Mr. Angel is swinging for 4d6+23 damage with his greatsword. That's more than enough to utterly shatter the balor's weaponry. If he wanted to. Especially since the balor cannot make AoOs with his whip.
The Paizo forums: sucking the wonder out of the Pathfinder fantasy game since 2008.
Not really - or rather, only if you let it do so. Funny line, though! :D
Sure it is...you just have to really like splatter art.....or something, or be a serial killing blood spatter analysts.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I blame the old Gygaxian ethos for the fact that the powerful good guys sit around on their hands all the time.
The idea that the universe needs to blow or else the heroes 'are meaningless' and the Points of Light stupidity spawn from this source as well.
But let me see if I can concoct some rationale.
An angelic invasion as opposed to a demonic one typically doesn't occur because the higher powers allow humans greater power over themselves and don't want to inflict a dominion on them. Evil powers, being evil, are far more likely to want to inflict CE by fiat then the LG folks.
If we toss aside the 'evil and good are equal' nonsense, things also become more sensible in this regard. Good is giving mortals a chance to make the right choices before they roll in and wipe things clean.
I've got something like this in my campaign setting. The Rilmani are actually attempting to cause trouble to the good people of my world because at the end of things the Ancient Eldritch Good is going to awaken and 'put an end to all that is not good.'
Good does apocalyptic a hell of a lot better then evil does. You find yourself in a situation of almost dreading when Good opens up its floodgates, and the powers that aren't ruined, the ones for whom a Balor is just a shoddy imitation, heroes of ancient ages, and powers against whom dark gods are nothing more then wispy nightmares before the clear light of morning, roil forth, unchecked and with an absolute objective righteousness to cleanse all that does not suit a universe of unstoppable good.
I'd half run this as a world where Neutral stopped being a valid option. That uninvolvement, get-along-to-get-along and apathy became steadilly darker and Evil. Where you found that you had to choose a side and 'my side' was no longer an option.
Where the pole-stars of morality came crashing down on you and every action became one of terminal importance.
Thats a campaign though.
On a smaller scale, I have had situations where angelic hosts ended up errantly descending on towns. The results tended to be a spectacular cessation of illegal activities.
A guildmaster might laugh off the chides of a lantern archon, but a solar appearing and putting the lie to all his attempts of claiming a subjective morality or a 'I'm not as bad as..' gets washed away in terrifying truth.
It is not for no reason that archons inspire dread.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
"If up-close examination of a beautiful thing makes it ugly, perhaps it was never beautiful in the first place."
Whoever said that wasn't aware of high resolution magnification =P
@ Ashiel - all true, though you are presuming a situation where either (a) a buffed planetar is getting to blindside a balor or (b) the balor politely waited a few rounds while the planater cast some 1 round/level buff spells. =P And in either case, the Balor's electing to stay in a fight that's stacked against it, against an opponent who needs a couple rounds or more to actually kill it.
@ Spook205 - I favor a narrative where Good is the underdog. Good being able to ROFLstomp Evil at any time it wishes, and choosing not to, doesn't sit well with me in a narrative sense.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"If up-close examination of a beautiful thing makes it ugly, perhaps it was never beautiful in the first place."Whoever said that wasn't aware of high resolution magnification =P
@ Ashiel - all true, though you are presuming a situation where either (a) a buffed planetar is getting to blindside a balor or (b) the balor politely waited a few rounds while the planater cast some 1 round/level buff spells. =P And in either case, the Balor's electing to stay in a fight that's stacked against it, against an opponent who needs a couple rounds or more to actually kill it.
@ Spook205 - I favor a narrative where Good is the underdog. Good being able to ROFLstomp Evil at any time it wishes, and choosing not to, doesn't sit well with me in a narrative sense.
Its a common thing in fantasy literature. My philosophy/theology background gives me heartburn when I try to make a dualistic system work as something other then a hopeless dystopian nightmare or endless coin-flipping pointlessness (today good wins, tomorrow evil day after good!).
Basically the demons/devils/demodands etc are more numerous and more prone to action because the PCs tend to be heroes on the good side of the alignment chart. And because people find the theodicy issue easier when they view them as two opposing camps or super-nation states instead of rock hard aspects of reality itself.
Its easier to understand while Thor the lightning dude might have trouble with the giant Midgar serpent why he can't help you really with the frost giants, than say dealing with why Manwe the great, who quashed Morgoth almost outhandedly, doesn't just pluck every orc off of the wall at Helm's Deep.
Again though, different tastes. Pathfinder's Golarian is a hellhole, philosophically speaking. You're doomed. Daemons wait to devour you. Evil attacks the planes where good souls reside, and those residences aren't rewards so much as giant holding tanks since evil can slip in as easily as a thief can slip into a bank vault.
There's no real redemption in Golarian. No reason to go kindly into that good night except fear that the Maruts will come for you and force you into the sausage grinder. If you're 'lucky' your spirit gets subsumed into the personality annihilating fate of being absorbed by the plane. And as a petitioner, you don't know why you're there to begin with.
I'd argue to stay away from Monte Cook style 'Too Much Good is Bad' bull though. That kind of hogwash starts to melt the brain.
Anyway...back on topic,
If the Angelic Hosts descends on your city, your PCs should have to deal with the much more interesting concept that the absolute eradication being visited upon their people is 100% wholly justified.
I mean this. If you do it, don't let the heroes try moral relativist ("But we were just doing what we considered good!") stuff on them. Make them face up to the hard truths that dealing with engagements with other Good folks should bring out.
Seeing heroes trying to save their kingdom by putting an end to the reason for the attack while also trying to fend off the attack is more interesting then just crunching stats.
|
I blame the old Gygaxian ethos for the fact that the powerful good guys sit around on their hands all the time.
The idea that the universe needs to blow or else the heroes 'are meaningless' and the Points of Light stupidity spawn from this source as well.
But let me see if I can concoct some rationale.
An angelic invasion as opposed to a demonic one typically doesn't occur because the higher powers allow humans greater power over themselves and don't want to inflict a dominion on them. Evil powers, being evil, are far more likely to want to inflict CE by fiat then the LG folks.
If we toss aside the 'evil and good are equal' nonsense, things also become more sensible in this regard. Good is giving mortals a chance to make the right choices before they roll in and wipe things clean.
I've got something like this in my campaign setting. The Rilmani are actually attempting to cause trouble to the good people of my world because at the end of things the Ancient Eldritch Good is going to awaken and 'put an end to all that is not good.'
Good does apocalyptic a hell of a lot better then evil does. You find yourself in a situation of almost dreading when Good opens up its floodgates, and the powers that aren't ruined, the ones for whom a Balor is just a shoddy imitation, heroes of ancient ages, and powers against whom dark gods are nothing more then wispy nightmares before the clear light of morning, roil forth, unchecked and with an absolute objective righteousness to cleanse all that does not suit a universe of unstoppable good.
I'd half run this as a world where Neutral stopped being a valid option. That uninvolvement, get-along-to-get-along and apathy became steadilly darker and Evil. Where you found that you had to choose a side and 'my side' was no longer an option.
Where the pole-stars of morality came crashing down on you and every action became one of terminal importance.
Thats a campaign though.
On a smaller scale, I have had situations where angelic hosts ended up errantly...
In my interpretation, the "Big Good Guys" are setting things up so both conniving "evil-doers" and the apathy of "good deities" come crashing down. It is, of course, a work that is ages in the making.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
@ Ashiel - all true, though you are presuming a situation where either (a) a buffed planetar is getting to blindside a balor or (b) the balor politely waited a few rounds while the planater cast some 1 round/level buff spells. =P And in either case, the Balor's electing to stay in a fight that's stacked against it, against an opponent who needs a couple rounds or more to actually kill it.
Like I said. A balor has the advantage of running away like a scared little girl. Likewise, buffing isn't difficult for the planetar since it can just become ethereal and the balor can't do diddly to it during that time. In fact, the planetar can casually hop the borders of planes to do whatever it needs to do.
I don't really see why everyone is getting bent out of shape. Balors have sucked for a good long time. This isn't a secret. It's not the planetar's fault, and there's no magical wonder or beautiful sheen that's been lost because someone pointed out there was a turd beneath it.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The way I see it, and my view is slightly biased by real-world religions, any Angel 'invasion' would be roughly equivalent to an Exterminatus. An Apocalypse, as it were.
Basically, there are two things which must be true before this to occur.
1) Victory is assured. Archons are LG, Angels NG. Neither would initiate such a massive conflict, with all the destruction, chaos, and death that would ensue, unless they were absolutely certain of victory. No unnecessary loss of life (especially in their ranks), unwanted destruction, or any chance whatsoever for the enemy to stop them. Once the 'war' begins, their blitzkrieg tactics would lead to the quickest, efficient, and effective victory possible in the smallest amount of time.
2) A list of mission-specific objectives must be met. Usually this pertains to the fate of the planet, a chosen pawn or proxy that represents Good and Evil, or a set pre-determined event has come to pass. In all cases, plenty of advance warning is given. In the short term, this means dreams and visions anywhere from days to years ahead of the event. In the long run, this means numerous prophecies established decades, centuries or millennia ahead of time, so that there is plenty of 'advance warning' and no excuse for the mortals to not understand that this was pre-ordained.
Now, note that these prophecies could have been from a previous Age or Era, and most mortals may not even know of them anymore, or dismiss them as the silly beliefs of some ancient society of wandering nomads or the like. Sucks for them.
Once both are sure, the Apocalypse begins, and the Divine Hosts being to sweep through whatever world this pertains to, meting out swift justice to good and evil alike. In many cases, this does result in the "kill em all, let the Gods sort them out" approach, though specific "holy people" (whether individuals or groups) might be spared, usually being called to seek shelter in specific 'safe areas' beforehand. (Those that choose not to, well, again, they were warned.) In some cases, where the entire world is 'cleansed', they may either be taken bodily into their afterlife planes as a special reward or may instead be 'borne away' to another world to be re-settled and spread the tales of what happened to the unrighteous. Perhaps even to bring new prophecies to another world that has yet to receive them.
THe classic Thor comic where he takes on a celestial that is about to judge and claim a world is basically an 'invasion of the good'.
What the celestial really did is burn away the unworthy and much of the despoilment of the planet and let the good inherit the planet. Thor's incredible striving to prevent it and even sacrificing Mjolnir turned out to be completely unnecessary.
a Good invasion that doesn't include understanding and mercy isn't a good invasion. Likewise, without some recognition of free will, and that free will continuing into the future, it's not Good.
So, these radical judgments just don't sit well with me. They seem more appropriate for a Lawful invasion then a Good one. "You didn't live by our rules, now pay the price!"
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, how to use this in a game setting?
Well, the original poster doesn't want a full-on Apocalypse, but does want to have a single nation. So, there are two options:
1. All goes according to plan. This Is It, The End, With Capital Letters. The world has met all the conditions for the Apocalypse. All but one. This 'invasion' is either a necessary step that occurs along the process, is used as a form of 'final warning' that the Apocalypse is on its way unless something, story-wise, is changed with a right quickness, or both.
As the DM, you have to determine this, because it just might not be possible for the players to stop it in the end, but the things they do beforehand can have great meaning. They are literally writing the last pages of the story of their world.
On the other hand, maybe they can. Maybe this IS just the very last "warning" before the world is finished, and the players have to find out how to stop it if they don't want their world to end.
In situations like this, the invasion would be fast and brutally efficient. There would be plenty of room for mortal 'custodians', and the Angelic soldiers would be disinclined to 'die', if at all possible (being ported away by more powerful ones that are ever-watching, when they get too low, and later healed; always being willing to flee if it looks like they can't win, etc). Those who worship the good deities would be proven 'right' in their faith and they would be gathering as many as they can. The Angelic types would be quite willing to allow them to die defending the nation, however, as each 'good' soul that returns is a reinforcement.
2. Rebel with a cause. Somewhere, somehow, the hierarchy has been disrupted, because some high-tier Celestial believes that the conditions of the Apocalypse have been met, but his/her peers disagree. Believing that s/he is 'in the right', the area under this Celestial's domain (incidentally, that one nation) has its own "mini-Apocalypse". The Angel in question now seeks to either 'contain' its area of control, to provoke nearby nations to attack so that it is more obvious to the peers mentioned above that the true Apocalypse is at hand, or is preparing a less-effective Apocalypse with its own limited forces.
Physically, it's like the same scenario above. RP and politically, it's a whole 'nother can of worms!
The Celestial isn't evil or twisted or anything. It's just wrong... or perhaps its even right, and its peers are wrong! In any case, the PC's must figure out its plans and work either to convince it somehow that it is wrong, convince its peers that they must intervene, or actively work against its plans and 'defeat' it in some fashion (not necessarily in a straight-up fight, mind you, though that can happen too) and thus show it that it is wrong--for if its plans are thwarted by mere mortals, it is proven wrong in this being the 'correct' Apocalypse. If its peers are correct, they must be convinced. If they are wrong, they must never find the truth, and the PC's will have to keep it from them.
---
Also, thanks Aelryinh... I forgot that the 'righteous survivors borne away' might, in fact, just be brought back to the same world, once it had been purged of all Evil influence and left to be a realm of Good. That has real-world religious precedent too. This may even be applied to the above scenario--the players might not know that they are working against a 'goodly' endgame, they might be simply concerned with the lives that would have to be lost first.
The way I see it, and my view is slightly biased by real-world religions, any Angel 'invasion' would be roughly equivalent to an Exterminatus. An Apocalypse, as it were.
Basically, there are two things which must be true before this to occur.
1) Victory is assured. Archons are LG, Angels NG. Neither would initiate such a massive conflict, with all the destruction, chaos, and death that would ensue, unless they were absolutely certain of victory. No unnecessary loss of life (especially in their ranks), unwanted destruction, or any chance whatsoever for the enemy to stop them. Once the 'war' begins, their blitzkrieg tactics would lead to the quickest, efficient, and effective victory possible in the smallest amount of time.
What about the scenario where they tried this at some point in the past, thinking they had it all figured out . . . and it turned out they were horribly wrong in just about every respect? Of course, this doesn't really fit into the Pathfinder Campaign Setting . . . or does it? What if their previous attempt at this caused an influx of sinful mortal souls (from all the slain Evil mortals) into (among other Lower Planes) the Abyss, swelling the already teeming hordes of Demons that the Qlippoth were already desperately trying to fight off, and this is what caused Rovagug to snap, thus starting his rampage on Golarion?
2) A list of mission-specific objectives must be met. Usually this pertains to the fate of the planet, a chosen pawn or proxy that represents Good and Evil, or a set pre-determined event has come to pass. In all cases, plenty of advance warning is given. In the short term, this means dreams and visions anywhere from days to years ahead of the event. In the long run, this means numerous prophecies established decades, centuries or millennia ahead of time, so that there is plenty of 'advance warning' and no excuse for the mortals to not understand that this was pre-ordained. {. . .}
Problem in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting is that this is now the Age of Lost Omens. Ever since Aroden did his Metro Man thing got killed, prophecy just isn't what it used to be. Wonder if maybe another Exterminatus was gearing up in the tail end of the Age of Enthronement . . . ?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Another thing is that the Golarion deities (and deities in many D&D worlds in general) aren't omniscient, omnipowerful, or even omnibenevolent. They're more like the polytheistic gods of the ancient world, fallible and often fickle. Torag's shown he can be a judgmental jerk who isn't always too picky with whom gets in the way of his divine wrath, Dou-bral let himself get shanghaied by some weird alien thingy from the Dark Tapestry, Desna's made some big screw-ups in the past, and even Iomedae goes off the grid in pettily lecturing and even potentially attacking those she'd already trusted to champion her in Wrath of the Righteous. Plus as mentioned above, there is the whole Aroden getting himself killed thing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The reason why we haven't see a massive influx of celestials is that all of the above threats have been contained. The World wound is locked behind the warding stones or its main creator killed, Earth fall allowed the current regime of gods to rise, and Tar-Baphon was put down by direct deific intervention before Aroden got killed in a horrible boating accident. But if any of those powers became a world threatening issue or you had a full scale planar invasion, then you can bet the planes of good are coming in to clean house.