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Okay. So what about the ones that do want to play and feel excluded, hazed, and harassed by male gamers?You know, it is also possible that a lot of women just had zero interest in playing TTRPGs, no matter how much they're into Game of Thrones and anime. Maybe they just think it is a level of dorky they don't want to explore.
;-)
Try to find a cool group? I've never had a problem with women in games I've run (other than with one idiot that, I am ashamed to admit, I specifically targeted at a PFS game just to get him off the table to stop him from creeping out the females), and only a few times at others' tables (one of whom is/was a regular poster here and I agree with her perception 100%).
Now, just because I haven't had much issue doesn't mean there aren't issues, but sometimes it might take time to find a good group. Also, nothing is keeping women from running their own games without cretins being at the table.
Let morons live in their own little headspace and find compatible people. If you a social activist person that is sensitive to obliviousness or unintended offense, don't play with people who aren't thoughtful. You're not going to change them, and if your outlook prevents them from playing something they find fun (no matter how juvenile or graphic), you're just ruining it for them like they did for you.
The bottom line is, no one really owes it to anyone to include them at their specific table. It's on the person wanting to enjoy the hobby to find people they can play with.
That works well for someone who's already into the hobby and definitely knows they want to continue. If you're sufficiently hooked, you'll find away.
It doesn't work when it's someone who isn't sure about it and gets a really bad first (or early) experience.
It's weird, but the older I get, a lot of the problems identified above, coupled with some "old school/new school" expectations of play issues, has made me less likely to seek out new gamers. I guess the older I get, the less tolerance for nonsense I develop.
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And I think the point about gender inequality in the way some groups treat outsiders isn't that everything should be evenly distributed, it's that if a woman wants to pursue a career in something that has been traditionally male, she deserves to be judged solely by her output, work ethic, and ability to handle the work, period.
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I really do think that an attitude of exclusivity coupled with the perception of exclusivity are at fault.
While issues like individual sensitivity and offensive material sometimes contribute to this sense of exclusion, I don't think it's in greater proportion than any other demographic. That is to say: it's not caused solely by puerile sexual references -- that's just a really easy behavior to target because it's so crass.
That behavior has to reflect a very small number of groups, relatively speaking. It can't possibly account for the widespread bias towards male players in the hobby.
Unlike poor taste, perceived/real exclusivity is something I see at almost every venue. That's why I think it's the heart of the issue. Instances of offended sensibility are just a symptom, but there are TONS of girls who feel excluded even despite the absence of such behavior -- and even despite the desire of groups to include them!
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Does anybody know how many five star female GMs there are? I know Paizo announces five star GMs on these boards, but I haven't been here long.
Not many. I know there's Thea Peters (aka Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome), and I think there was maybe one other that I heard of...? There could be more, but it's definitely a tiny minority.
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I'm curious if women gamers prefer female or male GMs.
I prefer a GM that can tell a good story and keep the game's pace moving—gender doesn't even equate into it at all.
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Assuming genetic differences is useless and a distraction. The problem is not women who don't want to play rpgs. The problem is women who want to do so but feel excluded.
Everyone arguing that RPGs are an intrinsically 'male' hobby is exercising fallacious reasoning. It may be that there is some aspect of RPGs that appeals in some way to a feature of the human brain that tends to be more common, or more intense, in male brains on average. It's also possible that this is not the case, and all of the disproportionate tendency for RPG players to be male is entirely culturally based. There isn't any way to tell! No systematic studies have been performed, and I can't even think of a way to strip away all the cultural baggage associated with RPGs so that we could actually determine to what extent there is a gender bias, and of course this would only tell us about the gender bias in the context of all the cultural training of women to be non-aggressive and deferential and of men to be aggressive and challenging.
But none of that matters for the purposes of what we're discussing.
It is an objective fact that at least some women find the behavior of RPG players offputting who otherwise might want to play RPGs. (This is also true of men. I'll get to that in a moment.) Women report this. Women in this particular thread have reported this.
This means that for whatever 'natural' number of women want to play RPGs and have the opportunity is likely greater than the number of women who do in fact play RPGs, and it is likely that the reason why some women who would 'naturally' want to play RPGs do not is this offputting behavior.
(Again, this is also true of men.)
Arguing that there are some women who would not choose to play RPGs, all things being equal, is irrelevant when there is evidence that all things are not equal. There are also men who would not choose to play RPGs, all things being equal. These men and women are not in the pool of potential RPG players regardless, and we don't care about them for this discussion.
Lots of people would like to play RPGs but choose not to for reasons we can't do much about, or which are out of the scope of this discussion. For instance, some have no one to play with nearby. This, in all likelihood, affects men and women equally. (If someone wants to argue it does not, I'd be happy to listen.) Some are too busy with their careers to play. I suspect this affects men more than women, although I don't really know.
But there are things that drive people away from RPG playing that we CAN do something about. Some of these things are not gender-specific, like the stinky unwashed gamer stereotype. Some of them are, like interrupting and talking over women, making sexist jokes, and subjecting female characters to gender-specific violence.
If we take it as a given that we want to see our gaming hobby expand and gain wider acceptance, it is logical that we would want to address both types of issues to make gaming as welcoming as possible to everyone who wants to play.
When people react badly to suggestions about how to make RPG gaming welcoming to women, it always makes me wonder why they value the behavior that is offputting so highly.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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But none of that matters for the purposes of what we're discussing.
Indeed, the thread title is not "Getting female participation to an ideal 50%," it's "Increasing Female Participation".
As long as there are women who would play if not for people doing XYZ, the fact that there happen to also be women who just aren't interested is irrelevant to the discussion.
I mean, what does the existence of non-gamer women have to do with the fact that there are gamer women getting groped, PC-raped and talked over? What is the point, the goal, of bringing it up?
It's true that some women (maybe even most, who knows?) simply wouldn't be interested in RPGs. But that's not relevant to a discussion about removing the barriers to those who are interested.
I'm guessing you have never gamed with military people.1. It treats everyone at the table like children and forces people to use baby gloves. It puts not offending people at the front of the list of people's minds, instead of just having a good time with friends.
...
3. It is a passive aggressive way of censoring people in the name of avoiding confrontation and will probably cause just as many issues as it attempts to fix.
As above, I have.
It's lovely just to be able to say to someone right then and there if something bothers you, not use a passive aggressive tool to do so, and then everyone is on the same net and life moves on.
So nice just to be able to call a spade a spade right there and then.
I'd love to take my SGT along to a game where some GM subjected her character to a 'rape punishment' scenario, they'd end up with their dice bag up their jaxy.
I'm curious if women gamers prefer female or male GMs.I prefer a GM that can tell a good story and keep the game's pace moving—gender doesn't even equate into it at all.Cookies are good too. A DM that can provide sweet discs of lovely sweetness? Priceless.
This is a thing? Did the GM ride in on a unicorn? :)
When people react badly to suggestions about how to make RPG gaming welcoming to women, it always makes me wonder why they value the behavior that is offputting so highly.
Its not necessarily the behavior itself that's valued but the ability to not constantly have to think about what you're saying and doing. Taking that self monitoring up to a level that more women would be comfortable with can detract quite a bit from the fun.
You have to avoid a level of offense that's set by another person. Its not static, its not objective, and most importantly its not visible. Telling when you've stepped over the line or are coming close can be VERY hard so it's a constant worry that anything you say might be over the line.
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Getting back to the original question and ignoring the unwelcome vitriol between the OP and this one:
I think the best way to increase female participation (or, heck, participation of anyone who isn't oneself) is to be sensitive to their experiences and requests.
Some requests don't need to be stated, because they're taken for granted, as has been indicated elsewhere in this thread. One doesn't expect to need to ask others not to lick them, for example. Being licked by a stranger would make anyone uncomfortable, and thus we've accepted as a society that licking other people is not ok. We can sympathize with the victim in this situation, because we can all imagine being licked by a stranger.
To make gaming spaces (or any space, for that matter) welcoming to people not like oneself, be that someone of a different gender, race, class, sexual orientation, political affiliation, religion, physical or mental disability, etc, etc, etc, one must—at the bare minimum—be open to the fact that their experiences are also different, and there are therefore circumstances that are going to make them uncomfortable that might not even occur to you. And that's ok. No one expects everyone to anticipate every possible situation that will make another person uncomfortable. But when someone states their personal experience or makes a request to avoid discomfort, accepting that experience as valid and honoring the request to the best of your ability are the bare minimum required to make that person feel welcome in the space.
Being asked to change your behavior for another's benefit, or simply acknowledging experiences that do not mirror your own or that you haven't personally witnessed does not make you a victim. It makes you a human being in a society of other human beings. So if your aim is to increase the diversity of the other human beings in the microcosm of society that plays games together at a given event or location, be open to listening, accepting others' requests at face value, and making what changes you can to accommodate those requests. If you aren't willing to do that, you likely aren't genuine in your claims of wanting diversity and inclusiveness in your gaming group.
When people react badly to suggestions about how to make RPG gaming welcoming to women, it always makes me wonder why they value the behavior that is offputting so highly.Its not necessarily the behavior itself that's valued but the ability to not constantly have to think about what you're saying and doing. Taking that self monitoring up to a level that more women would be comfortable with can detract quite a bit from the fun.
You have to avoid a level of offense that's set by another person. Its not static, its not objective, and most importantly its not visible. Telling when you've stepped over the line or are coming close can be VERY hard so it's a constant worry that anything you say might be over the line.
I dunno about that BNW, I've played with as many women as the rest of the dudes here (looks creepier than I meant now that I can read it all at once) and I never worried constantly about offending anyone, I just said "Sorry" on the rare occasions when I did.
On the other hand, that's exactly how I treat dudes too, so don't ask me.
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This is a thing? Did the GM ride in on a unicorn? :)I'm curious if women gamers prefer female or male GMs.I prefer a GM that can tell a good story and keep the game's pace moving—gender doesn't even equate into it at all.Cookies are good too. A DM that can provide sweet discs of lovely sweetness? Priceless.
Dude, I bake like a champ. But I was referencing Lilith's specialty.
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I'm curious if women gamers prefer female or male GMs.I prefer a GM that can tell a good story and keep the game's pace moving—gender doesn't even equate into it at all.
I agree 100%. But then I've expressed this in the past. I really feel, given the number of women that have an obvious interest in the fantasy genre that there must be a way to get those fans more involved in our hobby. I have no answers, beyond those suggestions already made. Alot of those suggestions seem to me to be nothing more than common sense and common courtesy. Yet the hostility to those ideas is, for me at least, troubling. It makes me feel like I've flipped over a rock and see all the bugs & worms go scurrying away when exposed to the light.
And I really hate bugs.
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It's true that some women (maybe even most, who knows?) simply wouldn't be interested in RPGs. But that's not relevant to a discussion about removing the barriers to those who are interested.Most likely "Most". Most likely the vast majority, in fact.
Like the vast majority of men aren't interested either.This is a niche hobby, people.
All the more reason we shouldn't drive away anyone who might be interested.
Yep. Well, I think we could do with less creepers and the like, but then, my tolerance only extends so far.
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When people react badly to suggestions about how to make RPG gaming welcoming to women, it always makes me wonder why they value the behavior that is offputting so highly.Its not necessarily the behavior itself that's valued but the ability to not constantly have to think about what you're saying and doing. Taking that self monitoring up to a level that more women would be comfortable with can detract quite a bit from the fun.
You have to avoid a level of offense that's set by another person. Its not static, its not objective, and most importantly its not visible. Telling when you've stepped over the line or are coming close can be VERY hard so it's a constant worry that anything you say might be over the line.
Someone asked me who my previous post was directed at --- and this right here is a related, if not perfect, example.
Really, other people do this every day. The fact alone that we have a concept of 'emasculation' in our culture is a good indication about how often women are just expected to adjust their attitudes based on the subjective sensibilities of someone else. Yet we almost never argue about what is actually emasculating in that context - it's just generally assumed that they know because they've been taught from early childhood, as women, what sort of things are typically expected by and around men. Every woman I have ever met does this. This is the reality of their lives. And yet here we are again fretting about being asked to do the same thing for others we have grown completely accustomed to expecting from them.
And what's particularly telling is what exactly we are worried about. Like we won't be able to relax because what? Because somebody might unfairly dislike us? Wanna talk about what women have to fear if they step over the line?
It's not an argument worth having. We have some pretty strong guidelines about what should be expected. I think the line is typically a lot clearer than we want to believe because if it is our excuses dry up. But even if you do inadvertently step over it, you just apologize and try to do better. There are no REAL consequences for a slip up. What a freaking gift that is!
When people react badly to suggestions about how to make RPG gaming welcoming to women, it always makes me wonder why they value the behavior that is offputting so highly.Its not necessarily the behavior itself that's valued but the ability to not constantly have to think about what you're saying and doing. Taking that self monitoring up to a level that more women would be comfortable with can detract quite a bit from the fun.
You have to avoid a level of offense that's set by another person. Its not static, its not objective, and most importantly its not visible. Telling when you've stepped over the line or are coming close can be VERY hard so it's a constant worry that anything you say might be over the line.
It's not that hard. And contrary to what the naysayers here keep saying, if you listen to the women who've come to this thread and others like it, it's not generally about "offense" or "self-monitoring".
The real complaints tend to be things like
unwanted touching - up to the level of being groped
constant flirting/verbal sexual harassment - as if they're only there to be hit on by the guy gamers. Or to have their body parts or their characters body parts commented on.
sexual propositions/rape in character
unwanted/condescending help - even to long time players and/or professionals - women can't possibly know what they're doing.
Is this kind of thing really that hard to avoid? Don't touch. Don't hit on during the game. Don't rape their character. Keep the sex out of the the game, at least until you know them better and have an idea of their boundaries. Offer help if asked, but don't push it on them.
That's about 90% of it. Watch out for other idiots doing the same stuff and shut it down.
And I think if any of us actually saw this bullshit, we would call it out. No one is condoning it. We don't know who is doing it, and at this point most cons have rules against it. If you experience it, tell someone and there will be help. Edit: And if there is not - there is definitely a problem you should let the greater community know about.
I get the feeling that because I don't like the PC police idea of the X-card, or similar safe space ideas, that I somehow also condone ridiculously bad behavior that women are sometimes subjected to.
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Its actually pretty easy, its called finding a female person who has shown interest in pathfinder and asking her if she would like to join your table. Tell your group that you will have a new player and if your group has made jokes about stuff that might make her feel uncomfortable, tell them to atleast try to keep them on hold until they know that shes fine with it.
In other words, how you would treat any other person who wanted to join your table. Its called respect
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sorry, prev post deleted, self-censoring
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Gabriele, I do no believe in special rules. However, I think that GMs and players can be respectful of others and welcoming. This has worked well in my local PFS group, I believe. We have several women gamers in our group.
Speaking as a man, I'd prefer it if you refrained from being disrespectful and unwelcoming to me as well. I'm not sure that should require the lack of a penis.
sorry, prev post deleted, self-censoring
But saying so is just a tease! Now I'll always wonder!!
. . .
Or, in the vernacular of grown-ups, I'd love to read the salient points in, like, more temperate language or whatever. :)
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If the goal is to increase the number of people playing, that's doable by simple marketing techniques combined with bringing the customer in on the plan. The very basics of courtesy are needed - and nothing more.
It's not just about increasing the number of people playing, nor is it simply about changing the demographics.
It's about making sure that everyone feels included. The example in question shouldn't ever happen in PFS (the rough equivalent to a MTG tournament) though I could see a judge requesting either or both to change their shirts. (Both players, and the judge, were jerks in that example.)
If someone sees being asked to stop making sexist jokes, stop coming onto women, stop touching women, stop interrupting and talking over women disproportionately, stop assuming that women can't possibly know what they're doing in a game, and stop having female PCs experience gendered violence as excluding them from the hobby, then that's too damn bad, but they really need to get a clue. The above fall under 'the basics of courtesy' to me. Likewise: treating LGBTQ players as people, not as orientations; treating players of color as people, not as skin colors; and so forth.
These are not revolutionary proposals. They don't constitute excluding people. If someone comes into a game store and sees a roughly equal number of women as men, a number of people of color roughly proportional to the local population, and sees that insults and bad behavior to these individuals is treated exactly the same as insults and bad behavior towards white men, and chooses to leave because of these things, they're choosing to exclude themselves.