How to REACH. (part advice, part rules)

[Eponine Lokrien Savet]

I think my next character should be a reach cleric of some sort. I am not sure i understand the mechanics, which makes it hard to come up with the build concept. Specifically, I am not sure how Reach stacks with other things, like enlarge person?

Advice wise, I am debating Human v. Half-Orc. The half orc gains +2 to all saves for a alternate racial trait and trait. This is great for defense, but offensively, the Human extra feat is hard to beat.

I think spell wise, I want to focus on summons, self buffs, and strictly spells with no save. Wisdom will be an after thought.

15 point build:
17 Str 14 Dex 12 Con 7 Int 13 Wis 7 Cha

I am not sure i want to dump to quite this degree, but I can't seem to make it work with a lot less.
It seems Reach builds are most dependent on Dex + Combat Reflexes so you can spend the Standard Action to set up, and AoO to actually deal damage,

Would someone take a moment to spell out reach for me?

Essential feats?

Example:

You have reach, You cannot hit those who are in the square next to you,(5'), but you can hit those who are 10' from you.

You have reach and you are size Large: You cannot hit those who are ___ but you can hit those who are ____ to ____feet from you.

You have reach are are size .

[Avoron]

Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can't strike at their natural reach or less.

[BretI]

Summons are a full round action which makes them difficult to use on a reach cleric in the early levels. At later levels, depending on alignment, Sacred Summons may allow you to summon some creatures as a standard action. The thing I didn't catch originally with that feat is that it is alignment sub-type, not alignment.

Standard reach tactics would be to cast a spell (often a buff or debuff) as a standard action during your turn, and have the reach weapon ready so that when people open themselves to AoO you get your attack.

Combat Reflexes can be useful, especially if you have a low initiative modifier since it will allow you to take an AoO even when flat-footed.

The typical reach weapon is a longspear -- a simple weapon that any cleric can use.

I would recommend reading Brewster's Guide, the link can also be found in the Guide to Class Guides sticky thread within this forum.

[Abdénago]

First, check out this page for some good reach templates. They're at the bottom.

So, enlarged, you can hit squares three and four, counting from you, but not one and two. You have a 10' "doughnut".

HOWEVER you will absolutely have spiked gauntlets or a natural attack. No ifs, buts or ands. So you will always threaten those close squares, albeit with a worse weapon.

Feat wise, there are few absolute must haves. You're going to be relatively feat starved, but I think the ideal list would be:

Power Attack
Pushing Assault
Combat Reflexes
Lunge

I like Cleave on this build, but YMMV and it may not be worth it for a cleric.

What do you do with this? Well, if you can swing it at first level, you should be attacking enemies from 10' away, using Pushing Assault to push them back to 15', and then letting them try to move up to attack you, provoking an AoO.

Combat Reflexes lets you do it to more people.

Lunge lets you extend your reach by 5', meaning that you threaten squares two and three with your reach weapon and square one with your spiked gauntlet. When you get big, you threaten squares three, four and five with your reach weapon and squares one and two with your spiked gauntlet.

Fun feats that you may or may not have space for include:
Combat Patrol (requires Dodge and Mobility) to let you threaten obscene areas
Improved Trip (Combat Expertise) to keep people from moving past you--since you can't get Pin Down, this is a good option, IMO. Consider taking the Threatening Defender trait if you want to get any use out of Combat Expertise (can help compensate for the penalty Lunge imposes).
Weapon Focus because you'll want it as a 3/4 BAB class that might use Power Attack and Combat Expertise

[Chess Pwn]

10 but 15 to 20ft

[Koshimo]

swordmaster's flair lets you extend your reach by 5 ft with a 1 handed or light piercing weapon for 1 minute as a swift action

normally for swashbucklers but its a slotless item and first use per day is free (no panache cost) and only 2500

[Magda Luckbender]

Here's a basic example of reach tactics. You'll face this tactical issue constantly.

Here's an advanced teamwork trick for Large reach weapon wielders: get AoOs over the heads of intervening allies. This allows for some great tactical combat formations, but requires movement discipline by the team.

People are always concerned about foes inside your reach zone. It happens, but it's not nearly as big a problem as it seems like it might be. Magda is a reach fighter who chooses not to threaten adjacent (50 gp armor spikes is the Pro method) because, y'know, fashion statement. Experience shows it's a small enough issue to be safely ignored on a whim.

[Abdénago]

Keep in mind that spiked armour counts as a martial weapon, so it may be an inferior option for a cleric trying to threaten adjacent spaces. Also, spiked gauntlets are a good way to ensure you've got a cold iron and a silver weapon handy without worrying too much about fumbling for weapons.

It's fun to be able to threaten adjacent with a reach build, especially if you want to get up in a spellcaster's business.

[Just a Mort]

Half orc imo, take toothy so you threaten adjacent. No unfashionable armor spikes, you bite, you know. If you're a growth domain cleric you can even put fcb into more uses of the growth domain enlarge ability for more fun. Dunno if your gm allows animal companions, else you could ride one. I think in low point huys, animal companions shine more. 16 str is enough, you can undump int (which is necessary if you want to have an animal companion as you need ride and handle animal).

Combat reflexes definitely, power attack. Boon companion(if animal companion route).Sacred summons (if your alignment theres anything good to summon).

[Magda Luckbender]

Abdénago wrote:

Keep in mind that spiked armour counts as a martial weapon, so it may be an inferior option for a cleric trying to threaten adjacent ...

It's not for actually poking things. You'll do that with your primary weapon. It's for giving a flanking bonus to your allies. That's the main thing you lose out on when you don't threaten adjacent. You need not be proficient with a weapon to threaten with it.

[Abdénago]

Eh, gauntlets are still better. They cost 1/10th as much, weigh 1/10th as much, you're not going to get rid of them every time you get better armour, and you could actually use them to hit things if you wanted. I actually get good use out of them during early levels to hassle spellcasters. Attack at 10', 5' step adjacent, then they are guaranteed to have to cast while in a threatened square under normal circumstances.

[Chess Pwn]

Abdénago wrote:

Eh, gauntlets are still better. They cost 1/10th as much, weigh 1/10th as much, you're not going to get rid of them every time you get better armour, and you could actually use them to hit things if you wanted. I actually get good use out of them during early levels to hassle spellcasters. Attack at 10', 5' step adjacent, then they are guaranteed to have to cast while in a threatened square under normal circumstances.

Except you don't. If you have the reach you can't also have the gauntlets. If you threaten with gauntlets then you don't threaten with your reach. It's clarified that this is the rule in one of the recent FAQs.

[Just a Mort]

You do not threaten with both reach weapon and spiked gaunlets at the same time. There's a whole debate somewhere on the board about it. You need a free action to drop the reach weqpon which only can be done on your turn.

[Abdénago]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Abdénago wrote:

Eh, gauntlets are still better. They cost 1/10th as much, weigh 1/10th as much, you're not going to get rid of them every time you get better armour, and you could actually use them to hit things if you wanted. I actually get good use out of them during early levels to hassle spellcasters. Attack at 10', 5' step adjacent, then they are guaranteed to have to cast while in a threatened square under normal circumstances.

Except you don't. If you have the reach you can't also have the gauntlets. If you threaten with gauntlets then you don't threaten with your reach. It's clarified that this is the rule in one of the recent FAQs.

Huh, I see this FAQ about not being able to use armour spikes as an offhand attack while using a two handed weapon and this one about not being able to use your reach weapon as an improvised weapon to threaten adjacent squares but nothing about threatening with (spiked) gauntlets. Were you thinking of one of those? If not, could you point me in the right direction?

[Magda Luckbender]

That's why the Pros wear Armor Spikes. It's always there and always threatens. You don't care about attacking with the stuff, you just care that you threaten. The truly great heroes eschew armor spikes for fashion reasons.

There's a huge deep pit of discussion on this topic in these forums. It's not really worth re-reading. Here's the essence:

* Threatening with a two handed reach weapon occupies both hands. One can release the reach weapon to threaten with a spiked gauntlet, but then one does not threaten at reach. At then end of your turn you must choose a configuration: threaten adjacent, or threaten at reach, but not both. So spiked gauntlet does not work to threaten both adjacent and at reach.

* There are a few ways to threaten adjacent while also threatening at reach with both hands: the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a dwarven boulder helmet, and armor spikes for 50gp. There are other ways, but those are the main ones.

* The issue draws attention drastically out of proportion to its actual tactical importance. Not sure why this is.

Eponine wrote:

You have reach, You cannot hit those who are in the square next to you,(5'), but you can hit those who are 10' from you.

You have reach and you are size Large: You cannot hit those who are ___ but you can hit those who are ____ to ____feet from you.

You have reach, You cannot hit those who are in the square next to you,(5'), but you can hit those who are 10' from you.

You have reach and you are size Large: You cannot hit those who are _5' or 10' away_ but you can hit those who are _15'_ to _20'_feet from you.

[Just a Mort]

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pgtb?Reach-and-Gauntlets#1

There we go.

[Abdénago]

You've linked to a thread that links to a thread where the question is left unresolved, with no official FAQ or ruling. The only dev comments on the issue have been from James Jacobs who a) doesn't like people taking his statements as official Paizo rulings and b) also says that if it were his table, he'd allow attacks with a spiked gauntlet at a -2 if the hand were currently on a weapon. It doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things, but none of the three GMs I regularly play with accepts the interpretation you three seem to talk about as official (for good reason, IMO, but it's what I know, so I'm surely biased). I'll voice my objections in a more appropriate space, but you all shouldn't talk like it's a "resolved" question rather than GM call when it's clearly not.

[Undone]

Lunge is extremely strong with reach weapons allowing you to threaten 20 feet away. Combat reflexes is good. Fortuitous weapons are crazy good.

[Chess Pwn]

faq1:

Two-Handed Weapons: What kind of action is it to remove your hand from a two-handed weapon or re-grab it with both hands?
Both are free actions. For example, a wizard wielding a quarterstaff can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, cast a spell as a standard action, and grasp the weapon again with that hand as a free action; this means the wizard is still able to make attacks of opportunity with the weapon (which requires using two hands).

As with any free action, the GM may decide a reasonable limit to how many times per round you can release and re-grasp the weapon (one release and re-grasp per round is fair).

faq2:

Can I use my longspear to attack at both 10 feet and 5 feet? I know that the rules for reach weapons don't allow them to attack adjacent foes, but can I use the improvised weapon rules to say that the blunt end of my longspear resembles a club and use it to attack adjacent foes? I know that the improvised weapon rules say they are for objects not designed to be weapons, but the blunt end of my longspear was not designed to be a weapon, right?
You could choose to wield your longspear as an improvised blunt weapon. In this case, it threatens only your adjacent squares, and not the further squares. If you are wielding it as a longspear, though, to threaten the further squares, then your grip precludes the use as an improvised blunt weapon. The rules are silent on how long it would take to shift between the two, but switching between a one-handed and a two-handed grip with a one-handed weapon like a longsword is a free action (and can thus be only taken on your turn), so it should take at least as long as that, thus preventing you from simultaneously threatening all of the squares at once. Incidentally, using the longspear as an improvised weapon in this way would not allow you to benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess, nor would you add benefits that apply when attacking with a longspear (such as Weapon Focus (longspear), but you would apply any benefits from using an improvised weapon (such as Catch Off-Guard).

You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack

Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature.

So if you are wielding you reach weapon with both hand you aren't wielding your gauntlet. If you are holding your reach weapon to wield your gauntlet then you can't attack with the reach weapon. Since you can't take free actions when it's not your turn to switch the holding.

[Magda Luckbender]

This issue has been thoroughly resolved and put to bed by the Devs. However, the discussions are many and messy, and it's really tough to find a single clear, concise explanation. It's not worth wading through again. Really, Chess Pwn's post above, and mine, is how it works.

Your GMs need not do things that way. There are no balance issues at all in allowing a spiked gauntlet to threaten adjacent. The numbers for Spiked Gauntlet and Armor Spikes are almost identical, so it just does not matter. Do what you like in a home game. It's a solution looking for a problem. This is because a reach fighter threatening adjacent is not a tactically important issue.

I explain above how it works in PFS play, which uses regular Pathfinder rules with strict adherence to RAW whenever possible. Over the past few years I've watched numerous players realize this. Some make a minor adjustment to actually threaten adjacent, others realize it's not tactically important so don't bother. Do characters who lack reach worry about how they can threaten at reach? If not, why should a character with reach worry about threatening not at reach?

The OP asked for help learning effective use of reach weapons. Being able to threaten adjacent is not a very important aspect of that, but it's one people seem to think is important, until they gain experience. Threatening adjacent is of tertiary importance, at best. The actually important aspects of reach combat are:

* Understanding reach tactics
* Working with your team. One stupid loose cannon on your team can block most benefits of reach through bad tactical play. It can be tough to convince a stupid loose cannon to 'sit on your hands and do nothing until the time is right', because by definition this person does not understand, or care about, tactics.
* Understand the threatened space templates, so you know when to be Medium and when to be Large.
* Learn assorted tricks to maximize your AoOs
* Learn to use Readied Actions effectively. Some readied actions work especially well with reach.

Once one has mastered all those issues, it's possibly worth a tiny bit of effort to think about whether one wishes to threaten adjacent, and how.

[Lamontius]

Two things you mentioned, OP: playing a cleric and using a reach weapon, I wanted to comment on this combination.

The main idea and reasoning behind combining a cleric build with a reach weapon build is usually to improve action economy.

Many cleric builds perform a significant amount of buffing, healing, removing bad conditions, etc.
These abilities tend to eat up your turn actions...and they tend to be pretty important.

By utilizing a reach build with a cleric, you are contributing to the general melee when it is NOT your turn, through Attacks of Opportunity and exploiting the movements of your enemies.

While there are all kinds of builds and combinations with a cleric that can be offensively/melee-focused, it is the above reason as to why many players look to arm their cleric with a reach weapon.

Look to feats that improve your ability to hit with AoOs, improved the number of AoOs you can take, etc.

[Abdénago]

Magda Luckbender wrote:

This issue has been thoroughly resolved and put to bed by the Devs. However, the discussions are many and messy, and it's really tough to find a single clear, concise explanation. It's not worth wading through again. Really, Chess Pwn's post above, and mine, is how it works.

Show me where.

[Chess Pwn]

Abdenago, show where you can do it. I've provided two faqs and the rules under threatening. But if you can provide rules supporting your side then you can win. As it is you have multiple people telling you the correct answer, and you saying prove it. You're free to have your wrong belief, but I suggest either accepting the help we're giving you, or providing evidence to support your side.

[Abdénago]

Neither FAQ directly addresses the question at hand. Those FAQs, as written, no more force you to choose between threatening with a spiked gauntlet and a two handed reach weapon than this FAQ says that you can't use armour spikes to make attacks on a turn in which you make attacks with a two handed weapon.

The first is explicitly about using that hand to perform a standard action that requires a free hand. There's nothing in RAW that says or implies that you need your hand free to make an attack with a spiked gauntlet--there are other "gauntlet" type weapons that explicitly forbid wielding weapons in that hand if it's not permitted, so the implication is actually that it's allowed with gauntlets, spiked and unspiked. And the same developer whose comment was turned into that official ruling has said that he would permit attacks with a gauntlet even if you're holding a weapon, albeit at a penalty. I linked to it already, but nobody addressed it. If you can attack into a square, you threaten it.

The second is about using the haft of your weapon as an improvised weapon, allowing you to ignore the "doughnut" with the same weapon. It only really applies if you insist that you need to adjust your grip to hit with the gauntlet.

If you want to read that interpretation into those FAQs for whatever reason, that's your prerogative and it's none of my business how you choose to play the game, but it's not a settled question and nobody must play the game that way in order to play by the rules. Repeating the same interpretation again and again doesn't make that interpretation any more definitive than the last--literal--hundred times it was repeated on the boards. I'm asking for you to give me a real ruling, since you're convinced that it works the way you say it does.

So, I ask again: show me where, please.

[Magda Luckbender]

I'm not going to respond further to Abdénago in this thread. No offense intended, so please don't take any. We've told him how it works. It is a settled question. I specifically won't touch the linked threads, because I already know them all, and know they are full of confusing misinformation. If he doesn't believe us he should post a question to the rules forum. That way a bunch of other people can confirm what we've already told him. This thread is not the right place for that discussion: it's a deep rabbit hole that will just distract and confuse. It's silly to spend many thoughts and words on an issue of only tertiary tactical importance. Get the big stuff right before you worry about the details. This thread exists to answer the original poster's inquiry about reach weapons.

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed a post and the reply to it. A reminder: the Advice forum is intended for providing advice to the original poster of a given thread. If you're not providing advice, and are instead attempting to start a rules argument, do not post.

[Eponine Lokrien Savet]

I decided to go with Half Elf for the Ancestral Weapon alt. to get Fauchard (1d10 18-20x2).

Half-elf (wildborn) cleric of Desna 1
CG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +5
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 11 (1d8+3)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +4; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft. (30 ft. in armor)
Melee fauchard +4 (1d10+6/18-20) or
. . spiked gauntlet +4 (1d4+4)
Special Attacks channel positive energy 1/day (DC 8, 1d6)
Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +3)
. . 5/day—bit of luck
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +3)
. . 1st—divine favor (2), longstrider[D]
. . 0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, read magic
. . D Domain spell; Domains Luck, Travel
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 19, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +0; CMB +4; CMD 16
Feats Combat Reflexes
Traits fate's favored, reactionary
Skills Perception +5; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven
SQ agile feet (5/day), elf blood
Other Gear four-mirror, fauchard, spiked gauntlet, 86 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Agile Feet (5/day) (Su) For 1 rd, you ignore difficult terrain.
Bit of Luck (5/day) (Sp) Target takes the higher of 2d20 for a d20 roll.
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 1d6 (1/day, DC 8) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Cleric Domain (Luck) Granted Powers: You are infused with luck, and your mere presence can spread good fortune.
Cleric Domain (Travel) Granted Powers: You are an explorer and find enlightenment in the simple joy of travel, be it by foot or conveyance or magic. Increase your base speed by 10 feet.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Fate's Favored Increase luck bonuses by 1.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.

[Eponine Lokrien Savet]

I am debating swapping Fate's Favored for Seeker (+1 Perception, Perception as a Class Skill). Right now, the purpose of the Fate's Favored is to augment Divine Favor and to help with the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier.

Feats planned as:

3: Power Attack
5: Improved Initiative
7: Lunge
9: Sacred Summons - This is the first level at which I have a creature summonable with Sacred Summons (Bralani Azata)
11: Divine Interference

I think I am going to write up a 'How This Character Works' thing for my PFS groups (I only PbP).

I may not though, simply because I am not sure how a cha 7 int 7 cleric would be able to communicate the relatively nuanced information to her companions.

What is a reliable way to increase size as a cleric?

[Just a Mort]

No way to. Don't worship Desna, worship Erastil instead for growth domain then you can enlarge as a swift action, enlarge person is your domain spell. Otherwise you need to wait for righteous might which is a lv 5 spell. Or drink enlarge person potions/wait for wizard to enlarge you. A spear is enough as a reach weapon, you don't need no fancy fauchard.

You either threaten at 10 ft using reach weapon, or threaten at 5 ft with spiked gaunlets. Just make sure you remember that. You do not do both at the same time.

[Magda Luckbender]

The Actual Magda Luckbender, not her player, wrote:

Uh, hi Eponine. Me spar with you? Great! [Sparring happens] Wow, you fight good! Me not want fight you for real. You dump even harder than me. Me later regret it. Me not smart enough to help with smart people stuff. Ok if me fight little less good. PFS not that tough. Me wishes me smarter, so me make more prettier art.