Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if this might lead to having retainers (gatherers) hold extra gear for you on the back lines while you go into battle. They keep the front lines supplied in gear while they PvP... Anyone have an opinion on this?
I think that sending a raiding force in deep to "battlefield requisition" the enemy supply wagons is a time-honored tradition.
I wonder if this might lead to having retainers (gatherers) hold extra gear for you on the back lines while you go into battle. They keep the front lines supplied in gear while they PvP... Anyone have an opinion on this?
That's a GREAT idea.
I can state with absolutely no authority whatsoever that Golgothans would NEVER attack camp followers filled with gear. :-)
It's not like Golgotha's largest company's charter says they intend to operate behind enemy lines. :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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In all fairness, TEO's reprisal blob was bigger than the blob they eventually caught up to and would likely have had a very good chance to achieve a "victory" in a sanctioned (non-rep) battle.
Of course, throw in husks, and we get to see how many of their number REALLY want to PVP. If form-up takes 2 hours now, imagine when players have to risk their shiny gear that helps them PvE.
I'm not saying they are risk averse, just that it will be interesting when they have to weigh (for example) the 66 iron and 66 coal it takes for Pot Plate +2 versus how quickly they can lose it.
X hours to gather vs. Y minutes to lose it.
Then we see who comes back and how often.
Right now you can die 20 times before your gear goes away. When it disappears (or has a chance to) on your very first death, things will get interesting. Especially if you are the attacker, because it can be a long way home to re-equip. You can carry extras, but that might just wind up in your husk too (depending on how husk mechanics are finalized).
I think the big deal is that if this game is ever to reach the promises it's made gear will be a really big deal, but in loot drop games it's not about the gear you can achieve but the gear you can sustain. If you can go and hit them at any given point and it takes two hours to see a real response, they might be able to rouse themselves for the major PvP events but how many players and how much gear will they lose during the skirmishes outside the big PvP windows?
Then again. There are very few faces on these forums I don't recognize, and the protagonists who would have been their main enemies are on a whole, not willing to endure the lack of quality as well as their alliance has. So with little population growth and a decline of protagonists TEO actually does stand a much better chance than I originally accounted for.
It would have been glorious fun if you had gone from Hammerfall to Brighthaven and found the defenders' preparations.
And stupid. Why raid the enemy capitol when you can weaken their alliance by picking off easy targets in outlying settlements?
Expecting the enemy to do such is like when the British got angry the colonists kept attacking their supply trains from cover instead of lining up all their soldiers on the battlefield and attacking head on every time.
They can cling to whatever form of "honor" they believe in but who won the war in the end?
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Eve players tend to PvE in better ships than they throw into *intentional* PvP.
There might eventually be a similar trend in this game.
Of course, when people lose to better geared forces they might finally decide to risk their shinies, regardless. It will depend on whether "winning" PvP is worth going all in, as well as how viable it is to fight nearly nekkid against well geared players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Right now you can die 20 times before your gear goes away. When it disappears (or has a chance to) on your very first death, things will get interesting. Especially if you are the attacker, because it can be a long way home to re-equip. You can carry extras, but that might just wind up in your husk too (depending on how husk mechanics are finalized).
It doesn't work that way, does it? In PvP, just like PvE, your threaded gear takes a 1-point hit. We'll almost always have enough threads for our weapons and armor. Only when it isn't threaded will you lose it on one death.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if this might lead to having retainers (gatherers) hold extra gear for you on the back lines while you go into battle. They keep the front lines supplied in gear while they PvP... Anyone have an opinion on this?
Very cool idea. If it were implemented, I could see the next development being skirmishers who try to sneak around the lines and attack the materiel holders.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Midnight
The way I've seen it work in Darkfall is you have your every day gear and your siege gear. Every day gear is what you are willing to throw into every little skirmish you encounter. Siege gear is the gear the you don for actual important events such as a battle that determines the ownership of a city.
Siege gear tends to be the shiniest gear people can afford. Generally even shinier than PvE gear as war targets may jump you at any moment during your PvE.
If things remain as they are when I tried in Alpha everyone is wearing their siege gear everywhere which strongly favors PvE players as they have the money to invest in the good stuff, while in a loot drop game the best PvPers wear the best gear for everyday purposes because they are the least likely to lose it and can make the best use of it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if this might lead to having retainers (gatherers) hold extra gear for you on the back lines while you go into battle. They keep the front lines supplied in gear while they PvP... Anyone have an opinion on this?That's a GREAT idea.
I can state with absolutely no authority whatsoever that Golgothans would NEVER attack camp followers filled with gear. :-)
It's not like Golgotha's largest company's charter says they intend to operate behind enemy lines. :-)
I'm sure you never would ;) Still it is yet to be determined what the winning tactics will be. Those pack mules might not even exist or may be geared to be really fast to out run attackers, or any of a lot of other options.
I was just wondering on tactics like in PVP battle when looting husks is in, looting anything critical such as weapons and armor and destroying it (down to a certain enc level) instead of keeping it just to deny it to your enemies when they recover their husk. You might not want to try carrying what you loot or it could slow you down, or have your loot retainers on hand to hand it off to... So many tactics to play with and see how they pan out....once we get the looting in.
Right now you can die 20 times before your gear goes away. When it disappears (or has a chance to) on your very first death, things will get interesting. Especially if you are the attacker, because it can be a long way home to re-equip. You can carry extras, but that might just wind up in your husk too (depending on how husk mechanics are finalized).It doesn't work that way, does it? In PvP, just like PvE, your threaded gear takes a 1-point hit. We'll almost always have enough threads for our weapons and armor. Only when it isn't threaded will you lose it on one death.
I haven't followed the threading discussions enough to know what the limits will be.
It could be that PvP won't very gear painful.
(pout)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that sending a raiding force in deep to "battlefield requisition" the enemy supply wagons is a time-honored tradition.
I wonder if this might lead to having retainers (gatherers) hold extra gear for you on the back lines while you go into battle. They keep the front lines supplied in gear while they PvP... Anyone have an opinion on this?
I completely agree....Don't think I mentioned that to tell you we were going to be doing it, more in the hopes that you would and I would be the one doing the "battlefield requisitioning". Perhaps we'll meet in the middle and just end up being the front line at the supply wagons. ;)
I think it would be foolish for Golgotha to think that only their members are PvP prepared.
*I* am ENCOURAGING others.
But I haven't seen it, nor read of it.
Are you *secretly* crowdforging? :-P
(This reminds me of an episode of West Wing).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very cool idea. If it were implemented, I could see the next development being skirmishers who try to sneak around the lines and attack the materiel holders.
I wonder if this might lead to having retainers (gatherers) hold extra gear for you on the back lines while you go into battle. They keep the front lines supplied in gear while they PvP... Anyone have an opinion on this?
Yeah, we'll see how these battlefield tactics evolve and change. When true wars start up and we have formations and such, I'm sure there will be some real fun to be had in the tactics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Right now you can die 20 times before your gear goes away. When it disappears (or has a chance to) on your very first death, things will get interesting. Especially if you are the attacker, because it can be a long way home to re-equip. You can carry extras, but that might just wind up in your husk too (depending on how husk mechanics are finalized).It doesn't work that way, does it? In PvP, just like PvE, your threaded gear takes a 1-point hit. We'll almost always have enough threads for our weapons and armor. Only when it isn't threaded will you lose it on one death.I haven't followed the threading discussions enough to know what the limits will be.
It could be that PvP won't very gear painful.
(pout)
Last I heard, the plan for War of Towers is to have everyone's weapons and armor act as if they are threaded (only lose 1 point of durability on death). Everything else is supposed to be destroyed or left behind on the husk.
Later on, the idea is to have a limited supply of threads, with more powerful gear requiring more threads. Under this system, if your armor and one weapon take up all your threads, then your secondary weapon would be treated like everything in your inventory (destroyed or left on your husk).
The limited threads system will mean that if you equip a bunch of shiny gear, you risk losing some of it in one death. Of course, if you go to war in cheap gear, you might die more often.
PVP won't be very gear painful in the beginning, but it should become more risky when people have shinier gear to lose.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rogue and Wizard can basically fight naked already. They have no real damage resistance and tanking your defense ratings just means you get crit more often, which doesn't do that much at the moment.They don't get resistance, but they do get hit points.
Wizards do get Resistance to everything except Physical with their Armor Feats, and Mage grants Physical Resistance too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if this might lead to having retainers (gatherers) hold extra gear for you on the back lines while you go into battle. They keep the front lines supplied in gear while they PvP... Anyone have an opinion on this?In all fairness, TEO's reprisal blob was bigger than the blob they eventually caught up to and would likely have had a very good chance to achieve a "victory" in a sanctioned (non-rep) battle.
Of course, throw in husks, and we get to see how many of their number REALLY want to PVP. If form-up takes 2 hours now, imagine when players have to risk their shiny gear that helps them PvE.
I'm not saying they are risk averse, just that it will be interesting when they have to weigh (for example) the 66 iron and 66 coal it takes for Pot Plate +2 versus how quickly they can lose it.
X hours to gather vs. Y minutes to lose it.
Then we see who comes back and how often.
Right now you can die 20 times before your armor goes away. When it disappears (or has a chance to) on your very first death, things will get interesting. Especially if you are the attacker, because it can be a long way home to re-equip. You can carry extras, but that might just wind up in your husk too (depending on how husk mechanics are finalized).
ooh a use for that 1000 point 3rd account though you would need to hold someone else's gear as you cannot transfer between same account chars yet. though of course you REALLY want to hope enemy skirmishers do not spot him/her. Would a camp be safe?.
That said, I was under the impression threading and husks would be introduced at more or less the same time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if this might lead to having retainers (gatherers) hold extra gear for you on the back lines while you go into battle. They keep the front lines supplied in gear while they PvP... Anyone have an opinion on this?In all fairness, TEO's reprisal blob was bigger than the blob they eventually caught up to and would likely have had a very good chance to achieve a "victory" in a sanctioned (non-rep) battle.
Of course, throw in husks, and we get to see how many of their number REALLY want to PVP. If form-up takes 2 hours now, imagine when players have to risk their shiny gear that helps them PvE.
I'm not saying they are risk averse, just that it will be interesting when they have to weigh (for example) the 66 iron and 66 coal it takes for Pot Plate +2 versus how quickly they can lose it.
X hours to gather vs. Y minutes to lose it.
Then we see who comes back and how often.
Right now you can die 20 times before your armor goes away. When it disappears (or has a chance to) on your very first death, things will get interesting. Especially if you are the attacker, because it can be a long way home to re-equip. You can carry extras, but that might just wind up in your husk too (depending on how husk mechanics are finalized).
ooh a use for that 1000 point 3rd account though you would need to hold someone else's gear as you cannot transfer betwwen accounts yet. though of course you REALLY want to hope enemy skirmishers do not spot him/her. Would a camp be safe?.
That said, I was under the impression threading and husks would be introduced at more or less the same time.
I hadn't heard that but either way I still think there may be a place for a supply chain tactic, even if just for ammo (once in), grenades, potions, misc weapons and armor that break due to dying 20 times in an extended battle, etc. Then we get to have our reserves guarding the suppliers, our scouts out watching for covert attacks, ad other coordinating relocating those supplies to keep them out of reach. There are plenty of jobs to be had in battle other than the front lines. I look forward to seeing how each evolves and how to take advantage of them.
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So organize yourself with a smidgen of intelligence rather than whining for color-coded friends.
*ooooh*
Hearing Cheatle's accounts of battles is kind of like listening to a child give an account of what they did on the playground.
Someone on these boards, who doesn't even plan to play the game, is rapidly becoming the whiniest person of whom I am aware. And considering how whiny my brother-in-law is, that's saying something.
And stupid.
Your face is stupid.
Be wary, for I will tear your heart out and eat it.
GARAGAARwait that's literally something the Tasmanian Devil would do.
Well played, Saiph.
Wow, I missed a lot. I'm a bit disappointed Andius left, if only because I was looking forward to getting my ass kicked by him.
I'm sure you never would ;) Still it is yet to be determined what the winning tactics will be. Those pack mules might not even exist or may be geared to be really fast to out run attackers, or any of a lot of other options.
Maybe that could be a service provided by third parties. They stand nearby and sell fightin' stuffs. If a side attacks them, they might get away with it, but it has the side effect of earning them new enemies they may not be able to afford.
So, kinda the same deal as my corpselooting idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wizards do get Resistance to everything except Physical with their Armor Feats, and Mage grants Physical Resistance too.Rogue and Wizard can basically fight naked already. They have no real damage resistance and tanking your defense ratings just means you get crit more often, which doesn't do that much at the moment.They don't get resistance, but they do get hit points.
To add to this, if you are fighting without armor you lose out on 50xtier to all defenses ... ignoring the bonuses to defenses from matched keywords which only tweaks that by a small amount in T1. That pretty much takes you from taking ~80-85% of max damage on average (against an equal opponent) to taking 100% on average. So that's about a 17-25ish% increase in incoming damage (varies depending on the matchup). That's on top of losing out on hit points/resistances/recovery bonuses for matched keywords. One on one wizards and rogues going without armor is asking to lose, but I can see it being viable in a we're-being-really-cheap-zergers sense.
Maybe that could be a service provided by third parties. They stand nearby and sell fightin' stuffs.
What is this "sell" word you speak of?
In my experience munitions are issued by Benevolent Dictator.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the point is wizards and rogues are glass cannon to some extent.
There will be borderline cases were mage +6 physical resistance and hit points means you die in 4 hits rather than 3 but in a large scale battle its probably more of a case of do as much damage as possible before you get targeted and then die for the cause.
This will particularly be the case once its possible for company leaders to direct ranged fire from the entire company at specific targets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wizards do get Resistance to everything except Physical with their Armor Feats, and Mage grants Physical Resistance too.Rogue and Wizard can basically fight naked already. They have no real damage resistance and tanking your defense ratings just means you get crit more often, which doesn't do that much at the moment.They don't get resistance, but they do get hit points.To add to this, if you are fighting without armor you lose out on 50xtier to all defenses ... ignoring the bonuses to defenses from matched keywords which only tweaks that by a small amount in T1. That pretty much takes you from taking ~80-85% of max damage on average (against an equal opponent) to taking 100% on average. So that's about a 17-25ish% increase in incoming damage (varies depending on the matchup). That's on top of losing out on hit points/resistances/recovery bonuses for matched keywords. One on one wizards and rogues going without armor is asking to lose, but I can see it being viable in a we're-being-really-cheap-zergers sense.
Now why would you think there'd be such a difference in damage?
Defense rating is your base plus the armor tier bonus, you're looking at 50 to 70 right now. Attack roll on the other hand is 3 d200s, take the lowest, and add your attack bonus. I'm sitting on a 35 attack bonus. To hit for FULL damage on an equal level opponent, I only need to roll at least a 35 on all three d200s. That's going to happen fairly often! I don't think fighting naked is going to be penalized much until at least T2 when people have a base defense of 100 to work with making my attack bonus matter less. But currently, a little weapon training allows us to ignore half or more of the defenses of the target with ease.
God forbid you are wearing heavy armor, I'm already doing full damage minus resistance 100% of the time due to the reflex penalty.
- Almost forgot, that's before debuffs. With debuffs, defense isn't that valuable currently.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now why would you think there'd be such a difference in damage?
Defense rating is your base plus the armor tier bonus, you're looking at 50 to 70 right now. Attack roll on the other hand is 3 d200s, take the lowest, and add your attack bonus. I'm sitting on a 35 attack bonus. To hit for FULL damage on an equal level opponent, I only need to roll at least a 35 on all three d200s. That's going to happen fairly often! I don't think fighting naked is going to be penalized much until at least T2 when people have a base defense of 100 to work with making my attack bonus matter less. But currently, a little weapon training allows us to ignore half or more of the defenses of the target with ease.
God forbid you are wearing heavy armor, I'm already doing full damage minus resistance 100% of the time due to the reflex penalty.
To clarify what I mean by an equal opponent: basically it's when your attack bonus+50*tier~their defense bonus (and vice versa). So your +35 with T1 is roughly matched to someone with ~85 defense. Admittedly that assumes that their three defenses are all on par with eachother. If you happen to be attacking someone's weak defense (eg. will and they've only really spent xp on ref) then that's not really evenly matched if they're attacking your strong defense.
Anyways, for an 'equal' opponent, it's in the 80-85% range of max damage on average, varying slightly with tier. 82/82/85 is what comes to mind, but don't quote those numbers. ;)
The 'convert stats' tab of my calculators can give you quick calculations of these types of numbers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now why would you think there'd be such a difference in damage?
Defense rating is your base plus the armor tier bonus, you're looking at 50 to 70 right now. Attack roll on the other hand is 3 d200s, take the lowest, and add your attack bonus. I'm sitting on a 35 attack bonus. To hit for FULL damage on an equal level opponent, I only need to roll at least a 35 on all three d200s. That's going to happen fairly often! I don't think fighting naked is going to be penalized much until at least T2 when people have a base defense of 100 to work with making my attack bonus matter less. But currently, a little weapon training allows us to ignore half or more of the defenses of the target with ease.
God forbid you are wearing heavy armor, I'm already doing full damage minus resistance 100% of the time due to the reflex penalty.
To clarify what I mean by an equal opponent: basically it's when your attack bonus+50*tier~their defense bonus (and vice versa). So your +35 with T1 is roughly matched to someone with ~85 defense. Admittedly that assumes that their three defenses are all on par with eachother. If you happen to be attacking someone's weak defense (eg. will and they've only really spent xp on ref) then that's not really evenly matched if they're attacking your strong defense.
Anyways, for an 'equal' opponent, it's in the 80-85% range of max damage on average, varying slightly with tier. 82/82/85 is what comes to mind, but don't quote those numbers. ;)
The 'convert stats' tab of my calculators can give you quick calculations of these types of numbers.
It is really only going to matter in 1v1 "honorable combat" something you will see very little of. Once organized company warfare gets sorted, if you are targeted by a group of archer snipers or wizzie artillery and cannot get instant healing you WILL die.
Alliance combat is not going to be won by some bunch of heroic individuals scything through the enemy TT style.
I suspect Alliance combat in PFO will be much like Alliance combat in EVE. The Alliance with the largest group of people prepared to confirm to a feat/armor/weapon doctrine and login on a few minutes notice when txted or phoned will win.
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I dunno, in all the time I've known him, I've never known Andius to leave something and then linger on it for months/years.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Cheatle
Trolls aside, it was fun and learning. We did what we could with the current mechanics. Your tactics in getting a defense up was a good idea. It just happened we couldn't continue even if we wanted. Rep reasons. You came and did what I would call a safe fire training exercise. We made sure to not "farm" any one on our attack and you all did the same. Although we did kill D. Brutus a bit because we didn't want scouts in our area. His stubbornness did win out and we relented.
Now tomorrow, war is on!! Death to you all
@Decius - were you actually using Scout or a perception boosting passive while scouting? Curious, IIRC you mainly played Mage
@Decius - were you actually using Scout or a perception boosting passive while scouting? Curious, IIRC you mainly played Mage
It looked like he was using the most important skill to an offensive scout:
Mining. :-)
Hey, if I had to spend 2 hours waiting for my buddies to catch up to my position, I might do the same.
Lulz
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Decius - were you actually using Scout or a perception boosting passive while scouting? Curious, IIRC you mainly played MageIt looked like he was using the most important skill to an offensive scout:
Mining. :-)
Hey, if I had to spend 2 hours waiting for my buddies to catch up to my position, I might do the same.
I wasn't there, but I'm quite curious, why do you keep saying that over and over? If I'm keeping up to date, your settlement had a planned attack on another, in the EE stage of the game, when killing another player really doesn't mean much. Yet you keep mocking their performance as if they should have been fully established, guns blazing. At the same time you know many of the players you attacked are not "PvPers." Odd.
I think you're expectations are a little off. Rest assured, there will be players in this game that shall be ready. Beware.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... why do you keep saying that over and over?
It's an obvious attempt to bait.
It's also obvious to me that if Golgotha had - for their own reasons - chosen to wait 2 hours or 2 days to counter attack, Midnight would describe it as a good decision... probably adding "revenge is a dish best served cold" or something along those lines. I'm also pretty sure the leadership of Golgotha would get pretty pissed off at Midnight if she showed up in a thread taunting Golgotha for that delay and started trying to justify it by spilling the beans on everything that was going on behind the scenes in the interim.
It's quite fine with me if Midnight wants to pretend we're weak and/or incompetent. Heck, some of us are :)
@Saiph
a) Decius Brutus proved he could get from Hammerfall to Zombie Kitty Mountain as fast as we could.
b) His mates were free not to respond, or to respond as slowly and carefully as they like.
I liked Decius Brutus' response time. I find it SUPERIOR. That's purely subjective, but its my opinion when I'm standing around waiting for promised meaningless reprisals for our earlier meaningless raid.
... why do you keep saying that over and over?It's an obvious attempt to bait.
It's quite fine with me if Midnight wants to pretend we're weak and/or incompetent. Heck, some of us are :)
No, its an attempt to get people to entertain me sooner.
And as far as calling people weak or incompetent, no, not exactly. I think the coming years will display to many that I'm kind of a spaz, myself. It just wasn't that far and shouldn't be complicated (did I mention *meaningless* PvP), so I find it inexplicable.
No one has to answer to my expectations, though. It was meaningless PvP with nothing at stake. Be as slow or quick as you like. I prefer quick. I scratch my head in puzzlement at slow.
@Decius - were you actually using Scout or a perception boosting passive while scouting? Curious, IIRC you mainly played MageTrade secret. Was I more evasive than other trespassers in the same area?
Hard to say since one can never know what or who they DIDN'T see.
I find it inexplicable.Good! :)
My imagination is more fun anyway....
"How many times have I told you not to batphone us on Dwarf Stacking Friday!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hard to say since one can never know what or who they DIDN'T see.@Decius - were you actually using Scout or a perception boosting passive while scouting? Curious, IIRC you mainly played MageTrade secret. Was I more evasive than other trespassers in the same area?
NPCS running around on the minimap for no apparent reason can sometimes be a give away
I will admit that I was agitating for people to put down their shovels and get active in crowdforging PvP earlier in the topic, but I find I'm more mellow now; it is too late to improve anything before WoT so now *that* is where PvP gets crowdforged.
NPCS running around on the minimap for no apparent reason can sometimes be a give awayHard to say since one can never know what or who they DIDN'T see.@Decius - were you actually using Scout or a perception boosting passive while scouting? Curious, IIRC you mainly played MageTrade secret. Was I more evasive than other trespassers in the same area?
shhh.
"I see NOTHING!"
-Sgt. Schultz