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Okay, so that character advancement table says, in example, a 10th level character should have a personal wealth of 62,000 gold. An 11th level character should 82,000 gold.
Does this mean the DM should be giving 20,000 gold in rewards to each player during the passage from 10th to 11th?
How does selling gear at reduced price factor into this? Even if the DM gives us 20,000 gold in useless items, it only has half value when we sell it in town. Does this mean the DM needs to give more rewards to reflect our PC's current value, or it this meant to impair classes which rely heavily on gear?
If the DM is failing to allot rewards properly, how exactly are the PCs supposed to make ends meet?
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I believe the WBL Table is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules.
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That table is really designed to be used when generating a new character NOT at 1st level. It is not something to check to make sure the GM is giving out the right amount of loot. Total equipment value is not all that proportional to equipment power level.
That's just it. The 'rules' don't ever say that the GM is supposed to be distributing it any particular way - just that the game assumes that all PC's would have about "this much stuffs". IF the GM doesn't ensure you are at that value - he isn't doing anything wrong - its just the default encounter building calculations might be a bit skewed - which are very rough guidelines to begin with.
It's more important that the different characters in the party are on par with each other, than they are on par with that table.
The problem I have with the table is that groups vary widely in regards to how they sell items. The table assumes that some gear is sold, but how much is some? Does it assume selling all gear you find? Does it assume a lot of gear you find will be Big Six items or is a bunch of quirky and situational items the norm? You'll get a lot of variance there depending on how your group acts towards their loot.
That makes the question of how much wealth to give out between 10th and 11th level tough to answer. The best answer is to get to know your group's behavior and adjust the wealth you give based on that, but that is not a helpful answer.
Since you're playing Skull and Shackles the wealth is built right into the adventure for you. Let the players figure out how to use their wealth. If you're starting in the middle of the AP, give them starting wealth based on the table and let the adventure sort out the rest.
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I realize this may fall in the category of non-answer, but I advise you to forget about Wealth-By-Level. Beyond determining starting-gold for characters beyond first level, I do not use it in my games.
If my players want to go renegade and rob a customs-house, a mint, a merchants-guild, or the royal treasury, I am not gonna deny them the loot, nor am I going to say "yeah, you robbed the vaults of the eastern-sea trade-prince Harad, you find..." *checks WBL table* "...2.000gp for each of you".
I am presently running the Adventure Path Rise of the Runelords, and my players spend their cash on whatever their characters would. They don't stubbornly pour the money into improving their gear, so they can meet some unofficial barrier of entry to the coming challenges. And if they find they really need improved gear to fight what's ahead, they don't bash their face against the challenge, but instead step back a second and try to improve their equipment by whatever means they can.
If my players are undergeared, I don't dump piles of treasure in front of them with a scribbled note saying "hint hint" on it. Their characters are responsible for taking care of their own stuff, including finances and equipment. And if my party is overgeared... so what? It's not like they'll ever reach a point where I cannot challenge them, should I find it necessary to the campaign narrative or tone, that a certain fight should be challenging. I am the GM, I will never run out of options for challenging my players, no matter what gear they carry.
So in summary: I advise you to use WBL for character creation beyond lvl 1, and nothing else.
Hope it helps.
-Nearyn
so they can meet some unofficial barrier of entry to the coming challenges
But it's official. NPC amount of wealth is equal ~1CR. PC amount of wealth is equal ~2CR. Monsters' CRs are assigned assuming players fighting them are equipped appropriately for their level.
WBL is a combination of loot + equipment.
Also there will be times when you will be above or below it by a considerable amount. It is not a rule, but it is a good guideline to follow. Unless they vary a lot from the table for more than 2 levels I dont go out of my way to make any adjustments.
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Ok, there is a lot of misconceptions regarding the WBL table. Here are some clarifications:
1) The WBL table (CRB Table 12-4) is a rough rule (guideline, whatever) regarding how much wealth a character should have at each level.
2) It applies to both creating characters above level 1 and as a guide to how much stuff players should have above level 1. (As Jeff Merola quoted above.)
3) The table for actually handing out treasure is CRB Table 12-5.
4) Table 12-5 hands out between 30 and 40% extra treasure per level than Table 12-4. (You can do the math, I did.)
With the extra 30-40% treasure in Table 12-5 over Table 12-4 is assumed to be lost via sold or lost equipment and consumables.
5) This is all a guideline. You can give more, or less treasure out but if you do so expect more, or less powerful PCs compared to what the book expects. (Of course, with power creep PCs are already more powerful than what the book expects so you will have to figure out what the right balance is for you.)
Note: If you do give out more or less, make sure you also update the amount of wealth a PC coming into the game is supposed to have as that should be approximately the same.
6) Finally, if you are going to follow something like a WBL table (or ad hoc it on your own) do yourself a favor, do it as a group. Multiply how much you want each PC to have by the number of PCs in the group and then use that as your guideline. Don't try to balance out each character because...it wont happen.
Different players will use their wealth differently. But if the entire group is close to WBL (or your own version) then any imbalance is probably the result of player choice.
Of course, you could periodically drop PC specific items from time to time to help out the less fortunate PCs.
so they can meet some unofficial barrier of entry to the coming challengesBut it's official. NPC amount of wealth is equal ~1CR. PC amount of wealth is equal ~2CR. Monsters' CRs are assigned assuming players fighting them are equipped appropriately for their level.
Not looking to derail, so I'll just say that CR is adjusted based on what gear the creature posseses, not what its enemy posseses. NPCs get their CR adjusted by -1, amongst other reasons, because their gear is not up to scratch. So no, the CR does not take into consideration the gear of the heroes that will be fighting the creature. If the party is overequipped it affects the indiviual party-member's CR, thereby affecting the APL, -not- the monster's CR.
Also NPC wealth is a good guideline, but it becomes quite useless when trying to portray people where the story or setting dictates they should have more gold than indicated. GMs make exceptions for exceptional creatures, and the PCs are nothing if not exceptional.
-Nearyn
Advice:
The Wealth by level table.
I rarely, even bother using that table at all, with one exception.
Magic items, i use it, to determine, when what magic items become available in game, by character level. At least that is the main use I have for it.
That said, i wish that one table, was right infront of the magic items chapter, as i always have to hunt it down, were it currently is located, in the Core Rule Book.
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It's both a diagnostic and a prescriptive tool.
You can compare a PC's wealth to the expected WBL, to see if he's above or below expected strength for his level. This is the diagnostic element.
The prescriptive element is useful if you want to use monsters mostly as written. If the PCs have significantly lower wealth than expected, they may have more trouble with a monster than normal at their level. Likewise, if they're too rich, they might have too easy a time. So if you keep them within a certain amount of WBL, things are supposed to be just about right. (However, other factors like # of point buy, # of players and animal companions, synergy between builds and optimization of builds, also have a huge influence on this.)
But in the end, it's a tool, not a rule. If you give an NPC more wealth than normal as shown by WBL, that NPC will be more powerful. The point of the tool is to give you a clue as to how much more powerful he's gonna be.
The WBL is something you consult, (note I did not say USE) during creation of advanced characters. Once the character's finished, than you're permanently done with that table.Okay, so that character advancement table says, in example, a 10th level character should have a personal wealth of 62,000 gold. An 11th level character should 82,000 gold.
Does this mean the DM should be giving 20,000 gold in rewards to each player during the passage from 10th to 11th?
I don't think the book's text supports that at all, assuming the GM decides to by the table.
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Just a note, many people say that guidelines are not rules. Everything in the book is part of the rules, even the guidelines. The Devs have stated this. This is also backed up by Websters definition of rule.
One of those definitions of 'rule' is: guide. Another is 'regulating principle'.
Point being, WBL IS a rule. Whether you consider that a guideline rule, tool rule, or whatever else is another matter, but it is most certainly a rule.
It would be nice if WBL were not dismissed simply because it is a guideline rule. It has value for many GMs and players even if it can be ignored (like most rules of the game).
*waits for the flames to begin*
The WBL is something you consult, (note I did not say USE) during creation of advanced characters. Once the character's finished, than you're permanently done with that table.I don't think the book's text supports that at all, assuming the GM decides to by the table.
Yes, if nothing else the WBL table is assumed by the CR system. If your characters have hit level 6 and are still using mostly non-magic equipment, they're likely to be weaker than expected and can't necessarily take on the same encounters a wealthier group would.
It's a fairly crude indicator (given the massive potential differences in power due to system mastery and character builds) but for inexperienced GMs it's a useful tool.
If you're running an Adventure Path, the writers will have put in enough wealth to keep the group at roughly the right wealth level, so consulting the table on a regular basis isn't necessary.
Point being, WBL IS a rule. Whether you consider that a guideline rule, tool rule, or whatever else is another matter, but it is most certainly a rule.
'Guideline' says it better, though. Calling it a rule makes it sound like characters must have their exact WBL, irrespective of what they do.
When most people say 'it is not a rule' they are not saying 'it is a soft rule' or something similar.
The problem is that when some people say it is not a rule and then call it a guideline (if they even do that) they are dismissing it as if guidelines are completely not worth their, or anyone else's, time. (I have seen this time and again in any discussion regarding WBL.)
Like most rules of the game, if the GM chooses to modify it he can. Heck, many do it without even thinking about it. But that does not mean that it is not a rule.
Perhaps this 'not a rule' concept stems from a concept of the rules as absolutes. If anything, the rules forum debates have shown us that the rules of this particular game are far from absolute. The Devs have stated multiple times that (I am paraphrasing here) they are not intended to be absolute but to change with the needs of the people using them (except PFS which is practically it's own version).
There cannot be a violation of rules that are meant to be changed to suit the people playing the game. Anyone that believes they should have a specific amount of wealth at a specific level is ignoring this element of the game.
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When most people say 'it is not a rule' they are not saying 'it is a soft rule' or something similar.
The problem is that when some people say it is not a rule and then call it a guideline (if they even do that) they are dismissing it as if guidelines are completely not worth their, or anyone else's, time. (I have seen this time and again in any discussion regarding WBL.)
I disagree with that assumption. I suspect it has more to deal with encouraging people to not slavishly follow the table because it's a guideline, rather than get hung up on the rules as written fetish that's common across the internet. At the very least, that's why I refer to it as a guideline rather than a rule.
If you're running an Adventure Path, the writers will have put in enough wealth to keep the group at roughly the right wealth level, so consulting the table on a regular basis isn't necessary.
In almost every adventure path I've run, I found this to NOT be the case.
Bill Dunn, it may be why you reference it as a guideline but when some people make statements like 'it is not a rule' and 'it shouldn't be used' that is not encouragement to use it as a guideline.
What Dunn is clearly stating is that WBL doesn't need to be followed as if it was the Eleventh Commandment written on a stone tablet brought down from the Mountain.
Indeed.
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LazarX, did you even read my post that you quoted?
At no point was I addressing whether or not WBL should be followed or not. I was addressing whether people encourage or discourage it being used as a guideline. If you are going to bother to quote me at least make your point applicable.
In any case, what is the difference between planning GP value and planning future needs and treasure output? Answer: There is none.
Whether you feel they need a +3 sword or 18,300gp the answer is the same, it is still 18,300gp.
You have already determined what the wealth should be and are balancing it accordingly.
Anyone who uses any concept of 'equipment is based on the needs of the group' uses some form of WBL whether they look it up in a chart or they just eyeball it.
The players need item X to take down monster Y? That is a form of WBL because you are making sure the group is equipped properly. That is the exact same thing WBL does (equips them properly for the expected challenge).
Now, you may dress it up as not being WBL but it is the same effect (to equip the PCs properly for the expected challenge) arrived at via a different mental process.
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LazarX, again, you quote me and bring up a point that I did not make. Again, please stop addressing points that I did not make as if I made them.
Equipment GP value has nothing to do with magic mart. WBL has nothing to do with magic mart either. There is NOTHING in the WBL rules that determines how the PCs should acquire the wealth they have.
Wealth does not mean liquid cash assets.
Magic Mart has no relevance to WBL.
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I think the term "guideline" is appropriate. I think the whole dictionary-quoting isn't really helpful.
I think most people consider a rule to be something that should be followed almost always, and a guideline to be something that's probably a good idea to follow most of the time. The guideline presumably exists for a good reason.
I definitely think WBL is not nearly as binding as some other game rules, like the ones that tell you when an attack roll would hit or what would provoke an AoO. Applying those in only a loose manner is likely to lead to angry players.
Applying WBL, but only loosely is pretty normal. If only because you tend to get more treasure than that, but lose some of it on consumables and sell value. So all PCs being within 5% of it during levelup is probably quite unusual.
In what sense, that it did not follow the WBL table, or that it did not yield sufficient treasure for the heroes to survive and continue along the adventure?If you're running an Adventure Path, the writers will have put in enough wealth to keep the group at roughly the right wealth level, so consulting the table on a regular basis isn't necessary.In almost every adventure path I've run, I found this to NOT be the case.
In that it didn't seem to follow the WBL table. Short of character deaths bringing in new characters with new gear, it always seemed as though our characters were under-geared for their level when playing through the adventure paths.
Conversely, if I rolled random treasure for each of the encounters in addition to what was listed in the module, it seemed like they had too much treasure then.
Interesting. Maybe that's because all the treasure gets lumped together in a big horde towards the end of adventures? So you tend to equal out in the last half of an adventure but you end up on the lower side in the first half?
Did you make sure to only roll for encounters that didn't have treasure listings? I could see accidentally rolling for loot inside of a monsters lair when the treasure is all ready accounted for skewing things a bit.
And were you calculating how closely the scenario follows WBL by counting magic items as their full retail cost or the half price sell cost. APs might assume the full retail cost when the half price sell cost would make more sense.
Just thoughts. I usually don't run APs as written so treasure obviously changes.
Equipment GP value has nothing to do with magic mart. WBL has nothing to do with magic mart either. There is NOTHING in the WBL rules that determines how the PCs should acquire the wealth they have.
Wealth does not mean liquid cash assets.Magic Mart has no relevance to WBL.
I'm not sure it has no relevance, though it certainly had no relevance to any point you were making.
All that really matters is that a character's WBL consists of reasonably useful items. You can't give the level 10 fighter a wizard staff and a +6 headband of charisma as their only magic items, then claim the character has appropriate WBL. Letting the characters buy their own items is one way of ensuring that their gear is useful. The GM providing appropriately useful loot also works.
The only thing "Magic Mart" really does is give you a way to turn money into useful magic items, and useless magic items into money.
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The table is there for one purpose: to give you the same rough number that "standard" game balance uses for character wealth.
This number is super-duper abstract and can't possible account for everything. It even tells you, on the page, that different campaigns will do things differently. And even if you're in an AP, character choices and needs - and GM style - change a lot. So, you really need to ask yourself just one question:
Do the players have enough wealth that meeting challenges is still fun?
This number gives you a nice, objective reference point, but it's less important that answering that question thoughtfully, based on the detail of the game you are in.