Gorum Glory but No Heroism?1?

[Maxiavelli]

I am Dm'ing and one of my players is wanting to make a cleric of Gorum but wanted to use the Glory sub-domain of Heroism. I looked and heroism is not available. after reading them I am confused by this, Glory's 8th level power is sanctuary and Heroism's is Heroism. Heroism seems more appropriate to a Cleric of Gorum than sanctuary am I wrong? Does anyone one know the reason for this? I'm house ruling regardless. but wanted to hear others thought about it.

[Ipslore the Red]

Heroes are generally good-aligned. Gorum is neutral.

[Zhayne]

Gorum's philosophy isn't particularly heroic. It's 'kill first, kill second, kill some more, and cast Speak With Dead to ask questions later'.

[kikidmonkey]

Gorum doesn't care how or why you fight, just that you fight. Being heroic is nice, but unnecessary for Gorum.

[Magda Luckbender]

Also, if you are using online reference sources, be careful which one you use.

This online write up of Gorum [pathfinderwiki.com] is more correct and up to date than this one [pathfinder.wikia.com], which comes up first in Google. Note the absence of Subdomains on one. In this case that's not the difference you are seeing, but the difference is there.

[Dreaming Warforged]

What material is the information in the wiki on the subdomains derived from?

[StrangePackage]

pathfinder.wikia.com is remarkably useless.

[Dreaming Warforged]

StrangePackage wrote:

pathfinder.wikia.com is remarkably useless.

Why so? Are you saying that some of the information (in particular the subdomains) is not from legitimate sources?

[StrangePackage]

They have fewer articles, less information, and more persistent errors than pathfinderwiki.com

They must have a better Google algorithm because they come up higher in the search engines, but there is no comparison between the two as far as information, sourcing, and depth of detail.

[Dreaming Warforged]

StrangePackage wrote:

They have fewer articles, less information, and more persistent errors than pathfinderwiki.com

They must have a better Google algorithm because they come up higher in the search engines, but there is no comparison between the two as far as information, sourcing, and depth of detail.

Ok, you're probably right, but the two sites have the same info on subdomains and it doesn't answer my question: Where is the information on deities' subdomains come from? And more precisely, where can one find a reliable source of information on subdomains of deities?

[Dreaming Warforged]

Maxiavelli wrote:

I am Dm'ing and one of my players is wanting to make a cleric of Gorum but wanted to use the Glory sub-domain of Heroism. I looked and heroism is not available. after reading them I am confused by this, Glory's 8th level power is sanctuary and Heroism's is Heroism. Heroism seems more appropriate to a Cleric of Gorum than sanctuary am I wrong? Does anyone one know the reason for this? I'm house ruling regardless. but wanted to hear others thought about it.

@Maxiavelli: Where did you see this information?

[leo1925]

The table on deities and subdomains is in APG.

To answer you question on why Gorum doesn't give heroism, the heroes are the good guys and Gorum on the other hand is CN and has antipaladins.

[Joana]

pathfinder.wikia.com has been abandoned due to wikia.com's policy on intellectual property not conforming with Paizo's Community Use Policy. Pathfinder Wiki moved to its own domain at pathfinderwiki.com, but wikia.com's policy also does not allow deletion of a wiki so it just sits there and collects frivolous edits. Also, the wiki-makers deliberately changed the names of some of Paizo's IP before decamping for a better home. As such, pathfinder.wikia.com is not only out of date (since it hasn't been actively curated since the publishing of the newest books) but also has inaccurate information.

EDIT: Okay, I misremembered the reasoning to some extent (think I must have gotten it mixed up with the removal of Golarion proper nouns from pfsrd.org), but after a search, here is the official announcement on the move of the Pathfinder wiki from wikia.com.

[Dreaming Warforged]

leo1925 wrote:

The table on deities and subdomains is in APG.

To answer you question on why Gorum doesn't give heroism, the heroes are the good guys and Gorum on the other hand is CN and has antipaladins.

Thanks for the clarification! I don't buy the reasons though... What if one decides to play a CG cleric?

[leo1925]

Dreaming Warforged wrote:

leo1925 wrote:

The table on deities and subdomains is in APG.

To answer you question on why Gorum doesn't give heroism, the heroes are the good guys and Gorum on the other hand is CN and has antipaladins.

Thanks for the clarification! I don't buy the reasons though... What if one decides to play a CG cleric?

A CG cleric of Gorum, correct?

[Dreaming Warforged]

Yes, that's what I meant :)

[VanceMadrox]

You can always use the Separatist Archetype.

Link

[leo1925]

Dreaming Warforged wrote:

Yes, that's what I meant :)

Then that cleric would be a CG cleric of a borderline evil deity, why should he get the tools of the heroes?

If he really wants to get them he can use the Seperatist archetype and be a heretic.

[Dreaming Warforged]

Interesting points. Something to ponder over the coming days :)

[StrangePackage]

Something to think about-

Here's a list of the deities that allow for Heroism subdomain

Are you more interested in Gorum or in Heroism?

[Rodinia]

Perhaps encourage your player your player to look at the Seperatist archetype, which allows him to choose any domain. The cost is the deity's chosen weapon.

The thought of losing Gorum's greatsword will probably prevent the player from going the Separatist route. No need for you to point out to the player that the longspear, a simple weapon in which all clerics are proficient, is actually a superior battle weapon compared to the greatsword, especially for a cleric. This is because extra attacks from AoOs compensate for the bigger damage of the greatsword, combined with the fact that those who fight with reach tactics tend to take less damage, combined with the fact that the longspear cleric can sometimes both cast spells and attack in one turn. All that may be too cerebral for a Gorum worshippper though ;-)

Comparison between Greatsword Cleric and longspear Reach Cleric, from the Reach Cleric Guide:

From the tail of the Reach Cleric Guide

Comparisons to a Two-Handed Cleric

How does a Reach Cleric (we'll name her Alice) compare with a Two-Handed Weapon Cleric (we'll name him Bob) - how do they look when contrasted with one another?

Actually, they're pretty darned close, as it turns out.

Advantages of Bob on Paper:

He's either got higher Strength or higher Constitution by +1 (possibly both.) Bob can dump dex, which means lets him spend a few more points on the other physical stats.

He's got a higher To-Hit rate. This is partly because his strength is higher, and partly because Bob's more likely to take martial feats - he's likely to take feats like Weapon Focus over Sacred Summons.

Advantages of Alice on Paper:

She's got a higher AC - while Bob might even dump Dexterity, she's got it at 14.

She's capable of more attacks through Attacks of Opportunity

She has a higher Initiative. Even if Bob takes Improved Initiative, he's still got a lower Dex score.

She's more likely to have spellcaster feats that Bob hasn't taken.

An Actual Battle, Level 10 Characters

Let's say either Alice or Bob is in a battle alongside a Sword and Board Fighter, an Archer Ranger, and a Wizard. They're up against six Salamanders, but two of the Salamanders are wielding crossbows.

Initiative is rolled, and we'll say that Alice and Bob both do well and get to go before the salamanders.

Round 1 – Heroes' Turn

Alice and Bob would both probably do the same thing on round 1: cast a spell. Maybe a Wall of Stone if they're feeling nervous, a Summon Monster, or just a self-buff spell if they want to get aggressive.

Round 1 – Salamanders' Turn

However, things start to go differently when the enemies attack. Alice gets attacks of opportunities against any Salamander that approaches - and with melee foes, she'll probably get all three possible.

Round 2 – Heroes' Turn

On the second turn, Bob would probably full attack before 5-foot stepping away (being nice and letting the archer or wizard get decent shots at the enemy.)

Alice, though? She'd use Acrobatics to get into a favorable position - ideally one that would require the Salamanders to once again approach her. Chances are, the acrobatics will go without a hitch - even if she fails the acrobatics check against one of them, they still have to hit her on the attack of opportunity; worst case, if she's unlucky she gets hit by an attack. After she arrives, she casts a second spell.

Round 2 – Salamanders' Turn

On the Salamanders turn, they 5-foot step in against Bob and do full attacks. Against Alice, they can charge her, but they'll only get one attack each (and provide Alice with more attacks of opportunity.)

Battle Summary So Far

After two rounds, Alice is clearly out-performing Bob: she's done more damage thanks to her attacks of opportunities, taken less damage, and even had the opportunity to cast a second spell.

However, the final portion of the battle goes to Bob. When the melee salamanders die, it's time to take out the two ranged combatants. Alice doesn't do as much damage as Bob when she does regular attacks, nor does she hit quite as reliably. Granted, this difference is only +1 or +2, but that's still worth considering. Without the attacks of opportunity, Alice isn't quite as good as Bob at cleaning up the ranged foes.

What's the Trade Off?

Basically, the Reach Cleric is better at handling throngs and is better at spellcasting (even if they have the same Wisdom score.) When Alice was outnumbered, her damage output went up to impressive amounts. And during battle, finding the opportunity to cast spells wasn't a problem.

The trade-off is against large foes and enemies that don't want to get in close. In those situations, the Two-Handed Weapon Cleric is better.

Why the tradeoff is worth it. The places where Bob is better, he's not better by much; the places where Alice is better, she's better by a mile. Alice is just a shade short of functioning as well as Bob in straight-forward fighting - she's possibly missing a point or two of strength, and possibly missing a feat or two. Other than that, she's capable of simply Power Attacking away the same as Bob. But the places where Alice shines - getting spellcasting while doing damage, handling multiple attackers - Bob simply can't do at all.

[Weirdo]

StrangePackage wrote:

Something to think about-

Here's a list of the deities that allow for Heroism subdomain

And two of these deities (General Susumu and Osolmyr) are evil, so it doesn't make sense for Gorum's lack of access to the subdomain to be alignment-related.

Maxiavelli wrote:

Heroism seems more appropriate to a Cleric of Gorum than sanctuary am I wrong?

Nope, you're correct. Despite Gorum being more interested in glory than heroism, the Heroism subdomain power is a better fit than the Glory power.

Maxiavelli wrote:

I'm house ruling regardless.

Good call, I'd allow it, too.

[leo1925]

Weirdo wrote:

Despite Gorum being more interested in glory than heroism, the Heroism subdomain power is a better fit than the Glory power.

I also agree that Glory domain's 8th level power is both kinda weak/circumstantial and that it doesn't really "says" glory, and that heroism subdomain's power is "oh so sweet" and is more appropriate for the glory domain, but that's true for any deity who grants the glory domain and not only Gorum.