Yes hello I am coming to this page today because I am about to join a King Maker Campaign and I have decided to build up to the Daggermark Poisoner Prestige Class. I am gonna start out as a Lawful Neutral Alchemist who worships the Black Fingers Aspect of Norgorber but I thought I would come here and get some advice on how I can make this character the best her can be. What I know for certain.
- 25 Points for stat buy.
- 150 Gold to start.
- Can start with 2 traits
With this being said I was considering on my first trait being:
Poisonous Slayer (Norgorber): You know the secret of plunging a poisoned weapon in just the right spot. You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls when you are wielding a weapon treated with poison.
So with that all that out of the way any advice and suggestions? I am still uncertain on the following.
- Race
- Starting Feats
- Starting Equipment
- Second Trait though I am open to changing my first trait as well.
Thank you for taking the time to read this post and any and all help is greatly appreciated. :)
Is Daggermark something you want to go with particularly? Or are you just looking to poison? I ask because poisons aren't great unless you use VERY specific builds (which as an alchemist you have access to), which really aren't helped by Daggermark Poisoner.
Okay, the reason I ask is because poison is VERY hard to use effectively. The reason is that the DCs aren't really worth it for the cost. Poison's cost quickly makes it obsolete except for a few specific ideas.
For poison with an alchemist build to really come online, you're going to need to be at 6th level, which is when you can take Poison Conversion.
Honestly if you check the rest of the guide, it has a lot of advice for alchemist as a whole.
But for general tips, make sure you focus on ranged combat if you're going to follow this advice for inhaled poisons, as well as focusing heavily on Craft (Alchemy) to keep down the cost of poisons since you'll be paying for them a lot.
You're better as a straight classed Alchemist, don't bother multiclassing or prestige classing.
Well.. I don't know if it'l lcome to it (its 3am.. I ALWAYS SEEM TO FIND POISON POSTS AT 3AM!?). but I'll try to add more to this later...
I've built a few daggermakr/poison masters.
He's not wrong that multiclassing is harssh. I personally think there is a sweet spot for multiclassing depending on what you want from it. (mainly: if you want the sneak attack die to dc or not). but you can pull some very specific lovely abilities that help.
BLOODY HELL I RAMBLED FOR SO LONG. LET ME SPOILER IT SO IT DOESN'T EAT THE WHOLE PAGE:
The main issue you will always ALWAYS face is cost. Inhale as listed in the guide is usually the stabilist way. Just stacking the hell out of it.
The newish alchemy pdf has a few new neat poisons I believe.. but it's also on Archeives of Nethys i think if this is not an official PFS game and you can use websites.
If you want to up the DCs and use injury poisons then you can do pretty decently off the daggermark ability to add sneak attack to the DC. Though still not amazing.
But you could go vivic alchemist for the sneak attack if you don't want the bombs. Your call on that one. but look at all the Alchemist poison related discoveries they are gold. If your going to stab or slash anything BE SURE to get the lv 6 discovery that lets you hit up to Int times with one dose of poison. Saves you so much money--since any injury poisons are going to be more expensive. and poison conversion of course. There is one that increases the dc by 4 as a full round action or osmething.. Thats nifty but I can't remember what level it was.. and lastly that applying the same type with the dual poison skill from daggermark poisoner lets you increase the dc by +2I think?
but there are some good feats I'll try to find later that can help a fair bit.
if your going daggermark I saw a few ways to work with it..
You can focus on Venom Arrow and be ranged (but so hard to sneak attack with it) you can start a fight off with a sneak attack arrow shot with it (prepoison the same arrow with a different poison if you have it!) then change the sneak die for DC increases. It should in theory increase both since the class abiliity says it increases poison weapons. It doens't restrict to only one poison. So it might boost both DC's and make both decenti-ish depending on your INT.
Alternatively you can get conductive weapon for injury poioson in CQC-a dagger or whatever melee or melee/throw weapon you want. Using conductive and toxic magic you can apply the toxi magic(s) that lower their saves or increase your poisons (i recommend the lowering save one).
Lastly if you have the choice more rare races are much better poison guys... You can go Grippli or vishkanya forfree poisons per day, or my prefered Nagaji for the favored alchemist bonus--it goes straight to boosting DC's of poisons you make. Which means you can get pretty decent bonus upgrades from that. (but this tappers off from dagger mark-though if you go this route you'll take less dagger mark because you'll want more stable dc's instead of relying on a valid sneak attack)
Alternative (and the one i ALWAYS use since I can't play rare races) is human with the heritage trick so I can semi count as a Nagaji (musta had on in the family somewhere) so I can take their favored class bonus while being a human.
Lastly.. if this is not pfs (and really I hope it isn't cause poison is even less effective there) and you usethe craft-ups-poison DC trick. Then do ask your gm it will apply to other things. I had a really nice GM in one of the games I used poison in. He let the bonus apply to poison made with a Poisoner's jacket. He decided that the jacket-a magic item- created poisons according to the mental notes of the user rather than some mysterious recipes written into it when it was made. So since I had such vastly superior knowledge in it when it read my mind to create poisons it made the better versions.
Secondly he let the same bonus affect the one or two inufsion poison attack thingies (i forget what they were) I never used them though. but it was nice option.
So one build i had (i'll post if I still have it somewhere.. when its not 330am)had alchemist 6, daggermark, I dropped bombs for the sneak attack. I used a dagger and poisons I crafted. I spent more than a few feats on extra discovery though--and boy do I wish i could take extra toxic trick.. I took Pernacious poison (conductive Dagger!) and Combine poisons (two poisons on one!) and I had intended to take Venemous bolt next (it's DC would be higher than a spell venmous bolt later as well)
In battle I had a hand crossbow and my dagger. if we started in surprise I would shoot them with my crossbow, with a double poisoned dart (later I would have added venmous bolt) trading sneak damage for dc increases on them. Surprisingly that worked fairly often.. the dc's were pretty decent. Then I would either throw some knock out gass if I saw sometheing extra dangerous or I would go in with my dagger (Rather than going for damage I went Dex and maintained high to hit and high damage avoidance and flanked) Depending on the situation I would either use conductive dagger with poison on it or not. I typically tried to save my limited per days and poisons for prime targets.
It wasn't a perfect system--and it would have been way easier to just bomb stuff to death but I realy enjoyed it.
Some cheap poisons that i got use of out of m ycareer (though much less later on cause everything non human is just immune)
blue whinis (with your buffs this gets pretty amusing.)
Large Scorp Venom (str damage is just great and the DC aint half bad with your various buffs)
Giant wasps as well. but for Dex not str.
new ones I didn't get to use that are in that new alchemy book
Vampires Kiss (this would be my new "typical carry" Cheap, decent DC when fortified,
Frostpore is hilarious! if you can increase the DC it makes a really amusing thing.. but not all that cost effective.
make absolutely sure you make everything as cheaply as you can.. but even still YOU WILL BE SO POOR it's painful. That was my ultimate downfall.. too muc wealth went to poisons..
If your GM gives with your DC class bonus applying to Poisoner's Jacket then it's great.. but again it's squify (my gm was fine since the bonus said "creates" not "crafts" like one normally would expect. and I myself am fine with the idea that it applies to more but it probably doesn't). But if you can only use it to create poisons from the book it's much less useful and not worth buying unless you can craft it. if you can craft it you can have some fun with it for free. Since quite a few decent poisons would have a few free uses per day with it (I always made the same poison, combined 2 into one dose to up the dc. then applied both to my blade to up the dc again. In addition to the other DC increases. So the end result was something like.. +2 or 3 from crafting, +2 from double dose, +2 from the double layering, +4 from the focusing thing + sneak attack die=not the worst DC in the world. and pretty sure fire caster kill for the sneaky first shot/stab. These are not exact numbers but kind of fuzy remembering from various characters over the last 1.5 years. but it gives you a vague idea)
One thing about poiso nconversion i was never positive about.. was that I assumed al injury never had a long onset that it was changed to rounds not mins etc.. but i'm less sure about that.. but thats how we did it and I never really thought to questoin it.
Gosh I bet this was really rambling sounding considering it's nearly 4am now that i've finished it... If it makes no sense let me know and I'll hopefully remember to come back after i sleep/grocer shop and I'll try to clean things up a lot more.. I just wanted to vomit stuff out while i'm here since I have a hard time remembering it in the morrow.
I have yet to actually play my Nagaji Daggermark Poisoner... But I have to point out the
Master Alchemist Feat:
Master Alchemist
Your mastery of alchemy is nearly supernatural.
Prerequisite: Craft (alchemy) 5 ranks.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks, and you may create mundane alchemical items much more quickly than normal. When making poisons, you can create a number of doses equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) at one time. These additional doses do not increase the time required, but they do increase the raw material cost.
In addition, whenever you make alchemical items or poisons using Craft (alchemy), use the item's gp value as its sp value when determining your progress (do not multiply the item's gp cost by 10 to determine its sp cost).
Stack it with the Daggermark Poisoner's 3rd level Toxic Manufactory, and you're making a lot of poisons VERY quickly. Doesn't help much with cost, I'm afraid, but it'll cut down on the time required. Twice your int mod in doses, use PP instead of SP in determining how long.
Also, don't underestimate their 'capstone'. Instantaneous Toxicology. If you find you need to drop someone REAL fast, make an unstable poison as a full round action. It becomes useless at the end of your next turn, but it only costs 1/10, instead of 1/3, to create. 7 silver, 5 copper, to drop a drow poison on that mage that's giving your party a hard time, for example. Saves you 14S and 5Cp.
Also. If you have the proficiency (I don't know if you need short blade prof or if it just uses the stats). Liquid Blade is potentially great. I carried a few with different poisons already inside it. Not the highest DC's since most large poison increases are time sensitive. But I had a few for sleep cutting and various ability damage types. It sorta allowed me to pul la weapon as needed. and if i had the time prior I could power them up/add more.
Interesting thought that I don't know how it works for RAW Pretty sure you can't. but something I was allowed to do. When liquid blade evaporates so does the poison. So I filled them upwith inhaled poisons (they would not poison if i stabbed someone with it of course) istabbed a few different kinds of doctored blades in a square as a trap. When the enemies came in the caster shot it with a sonic attack causing them all to shatter and evaporate which dosed the enemies. Pretty sure that was a Rule of cool situation but hey if your GM's the type to go with cool.. then evaporating blade+inhale poisons might work out.
They are so much less useful later on once it's more or less a requirement they have Enchantment bonuses. It's a real shame... I wish there was a magic item that you could enchant that would add the bonus to any offenseive alchemical item an to the DC's of poisons.
~Ahem~ Ok first and for most I would like to say that I am grateful to everyone here for all the advice given it was really helpful. But with that being said I was talking to my DM today and turns out one of the other players already planed on playing a Alchemist built around mutagen. So I am instead going to play a Rogue but because I still want to at least do something similar to my original idea I am going to use the Poisoner Archetype and still build up to the Daggermark Poisoner prestige class.
Ultimately in the long run the concept of the character is a Assassin like character who uses alchemy to make Poisons for his weapons along with Poisonous Smoke Bombs and special Alchemy Arrows.
Anyway here is what I currently have for the build.
Phoey thats too bad.. It's going ot be insanely expensive without sticky poison... Is it really just "don't want both of us to have mutagen" thing or...? Cause a vivic alchemist and a normal bomb alchemist play very differently. and if you go daggermark then you won't really have the extracts he does. so not terrible overlap. Especially if that guy wanted to do the infusions route. cause really not being an alchemist makes things so much more difficult.. Unless your GM allows you to get alchemist discoveries somehow, or makes up a feat "extra toxic trick"
but really.. your idea is going to be damn hard if not going from Alchemist. SoI'd really see if the two playstyles will have much overlap.
If the fellow is using mutagen to str to just be a melee monster that isn't going to cross over with you much. Nor would a bomb alchemist.
Honestly mutagen is much less concept defining than anything else.
Hell you could just about ignore your concept's alchemical/magic fluff. and fluff your mutagen as a drug. You could be a chemist while the other guy has magic ideas. All about presentation
I'll get back to you--because I need to read a lot up on hte rogue now.
but how will you want to fight? close or longer ranged? i see you have long bow and rapier.Are you intending to duck in and out of combat using both. Start with bow then switch to rapier.. or?
I'm not sure if lasting poison is worth a different talent.. it does double the use of poisons.. i guess it depends on how often you inten dto poison with the rapier.
You have poison convversion. Is it extremely important to you to be able to change poison types with 1 min? Otherwise jut being a daggermark means you can spend an hour ot change it. Granted you can fail that roll.... so it's more than reasonable to take conversion talent/discovery/trick.
be sure you take that master alchemy feat when you can, for crafting.
idea so i don't forget after i research:
I don't know about the archetype yet.. but so I don't forget the idea.
ninja instead. to get you smoke boms and open up your toxic tricks.
For toxic tricks poison trap, and lanch trap. Possibly poison arrow thingy toxic trick.
Because your ont an alchemist crafting poisons will be harsh and way less efficient almost no matter what you do. So you want to make sure every single one counts.
Using the trap+launch trap, you can set them all up in the morning. Trapster increases your trap's DC and to hit (The to hit may or may not apply to the bow attack--Likely not but eh. doesn't hurt asking since the trap arrow is still a trap it specifies). The occasional Sneak attack die bonus to DC will also help.
So adding all that your opening trap arrow (tangle foot arrow even!) can be pretty nifty DC. If you have the INT and enough open toxic tricks you could also venom spell the arrow and fire it that way.
Edit:
I looked at poisoner rogue:
Honestly I don't think that archetype is very good... I think being a ninja might be more efficient and useful... I think you can take get smoke and poison bombs from it. I think yo ucan take rogue talents as well last i knew? Would have to check on it... This would free you up some toxic tricks if you see any that look tasty. Just a random thought on it. Plus whlie you won't have a lot of Ki points you'll have a small amount for occasional uses.
If you take a level of Daggermark after going vivisectionist, would vivisectionist suddenly advance the poisoner's 1/5 sneak attack?
Because that would be silly and terrible.
I don't understand what your asking persay..
Daggermark doesn't gain sneak attack damage progression until lv 5.
Once you get to lv 5, yes the +1d6 sneak attack from Daggermark will go with other sources of sneak.
So if you already had 3d6 SA and then reached level 5 Daggermark. You'll have 4d6 SA
What do you want smoke bomb and poisom bomb for? to cover large amounts?
Fair warning note is that poison bomb only allows for 1 dose so be sure it innately has pretty good DC.
Yeah, gotta agree with Zwordsman here, going Rogue for any reason is never the best choice. Like losing extracts is a HUGE hit, most Rogue talents are garbo, and as stated Vivisectionist is a strong call for a non-Rogue rogue.
Also I'd burn a trait on buffing that will save if you do or don't go Alchemist, since a +1 is not a good place in life to be will save wise.
Well Zwordsman it's not so much that I don't want two people running around with extracts etc etc its more I want to let this person play an alchemist since they laid claim too it first and I figured hey let him do his thing and I will go a slightly different route.
As for my plans in combat the idea is to focus more on ranged combat but have a melee weapon for when I am out of arrows or when it would be more practical to flank someone & stab them in the back. The alchemy of my character is going to be more or less a supplement to the character concept and not his primary focus like before.
As for ninja the DM requested we refrain from using stuff originating from the Tian Xia area as he wants our character to more or less be from around the area the campaign takes place in to cut down on the cheese if you will.
And as for the will save buff I suppose i could take the Bastard trait as it is really the only trait I know of that gives a bonus to will.
If you really can't double up on two alchs (which is super possible and fun and there's a GREAT debuffing Alch build that works at a range), I'd suggest Investigator for your class, since again, extracts beat EVERYTHING the Rogue gets, although ranged inquisitor is hella hard to pull off. Maybe a selfish Bard archetype would work better for you, although I know people have their misgivings about Bards.
Personally no matter what you do, Rogue's probably gonna be the worst option for it, which is a shame.
Honestly I ca'nt see your character working out being useful if built from a rogue.. rogue has some issues.. and going poison o ntop of that makmes it even harsher..
I'm mostly wondering why it matters? Is it just the thought of having the same class or hte playstyles overlapping too much? Cause with how your shapping up-and with how the other fellow sounds. I doubt you'll overlap much more than in name..
Because really.. Your going to be really disappointed as time goes on. I LOVE poison and I love playing harsh/lower powered characters. but this is a level I don't think will work very well. Unless everyone is of similar power levels. But hopefully it'll work out.
I'll try thinkin' some more~ Since I"m lovin poisons.
Edit:
if you take n jolly's suggestion of Investigator. ranged study will be your friend. Also! there is a feat that allows you to trade studied strike damage die for 1/2 that to DC of poisons. I think something like that.. I need to refind it. But that isn't too bad.. and a lot easier to pull off honestly. Though honestly that won't be much at all if you go deep into daggermark poisoner..
If you do that, and this is a home game I honestly would ask your gm if you can either create a feat "extra toxic trick" and then only go to v 2 or 4 (if you want trapster). Then use extra toxic trick to get venmous bolt, poison trap, launch trap and do the above arrow trap tricks.
alternatively would just be mostly ignoring studied combat (bonuses won't be that big. But still more useful than rogue imo). and going full daggermark for the tricks you wanted.
That would still be much more stable than the rogue pathway. Studied combat will have some small but useful bonuses, you'll have inspiration (epic),extracts, and then daggermark stuff.
Edit 2:
You could look into eldrtich hertage also. if your Cha is alright For the snake bite. Free poison bite a few times semi scaling.. I would see if you could take the wyldblooded version of the next skill at 11 so you get free coating per day.
Potentially in a weird way. a conductive Rapier could be used to deliver the snake fang effect as well via eldritch heritage.
I swear. After the recent pop up of poison stuff, and how scattered my old notes are. I'm just gonna write a darn mini guide somewhere. At the very least it'll be a nice resource of the various ways to get stuff.
Daggermark doesn't gain sneak attack damage progression until lv 5.
Once you get to lv 5, yes the +1d6 sneak attack from Daggermark will go with other sources of sneak.
So if you already had 3d6 SA and then reached level 5 Daggermark. You'll have 4d6 SA
Here's vivisectionist SA
Quote:
At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on).
I mean, nobody in their right mind would play it like that but...
EDIT: actually, looking at it, you could read it in a way that they in fact stack, and they both stack as rogue levels so the alchemist would be upgrading the daggermark (as the bolded part says they stack to determine the effective rogue level)...
You can use the nagaji FCB that grants +1/3 DC to poisons. And with the ability to change poison type you can transform pretty cheap poisons (inhalate) to powerfull poisons (injury/contact).
I personally like to play ranged poisoner this way you can coat all of your projectiles before fights.
I just wanted to say thank you to everyone for all the advice they are giving. It is really helping me come up with a fun character for this campaign. :)
I'm always up for poison love haha. So darn hard to get it going nicely.
I really wish there was as specific magic weapon that upped DC of poisons used with it. Like the assassin dagger that ups the insant kill feature of the prestige class Assassin.
