I think the best option for using dirty trick is the savage dirty trick rage power.
I've played a Dirty Trick monster (Maneuver Master Monk 5), supplementing with Trip and Mantis Style'd Stunning Fists. Would've loved to get to Dirty Trick Master, but the game didn't get that high.
If you do it as a Fighter, Dirty Fighter gets Speedy Tricks at 9, which is excellent.
Quick allows you to do one, rather than as many as you want.
Quick allows you to do one, rather than as many as you want.You are correct, I mis-read the feat. Good to know, though I doubt I'd ever be allowed a full orc. I am saddened by this.
Half Orc qualifies for all human/orc feats, archetypes, etc. Half Orc is also awesome as you get a bite attack... My build idea for a Dirty Fighter is unarmed strike/natural attack based (the racial bite plus any others you can pick up, perhaps from items). More attacks = more dirty tricks with Dirty Fighter after all, which is especially awesome with nat attacks as each will function at nearly full BAB. Combine with Dawnflower Dervish fighter archetype, and at 11 you have pseudo-pounce so you can run up on people and ruin their day.
I have a build for a tengu using claws (in place of sword training) who is a slayer with the bountyhunter archetype. Whenever you would deal sneak attack to the target of your study you may perform a dirty trick as a free action in place of dealing said sneak attack damage. That's 3 dirty tricks a round.
Incidentally, what happens when you hit someone with multiple dirty tricks? I haven't really been able to find an answer.
Also noteworthy re: Dirty Fighter is that it works with Whirlwind Attack, allowing you to lay down an AoE Dirty Trick. At that point you're doing pretty decent at the whole "debuff like a witch but without spells" thing.
The Dirty Fighter archetype is pretty cool. I'm playing a PC with it right now, and the only problem I see is that the abilities come online at a higher level than I'd hope. In response to that I've chosen to specialize in Trip at lower levels and even took a couple of Monk levels to help get Vicious Stomp and Enforcer. I've also found that the archetype pairs nicely with Mutation Warrior from the ACG. The alchemical boost to Str is also a boost to CMD. I can post my build if you're interested. It is pretty effective other than the low Will save (Monk levels help a little, but I dumped Wis to get higher Int for Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, etc)
I have a question I have about Dirty Trick master though. It says you can increase the sickened condition to nauseated. It then says that the opponent must use a standard action to remove the condition. Nauseated creatures can’t perform standard actions though. Should we assume that a creature nauseated by Dirty Trick Master can still remove the condition despite the normal restriction on using standard actions while nauseated, or is this intended to be a complete lockdown?
I want to do a dirty trick build, but I usually play in PFS, and I'm afraid that the dirty trick maneuver is too dependent on GM interpretation and subject to significant table variation.
Can anyone point me to some resources that I can use to help standardize the dirty tick maneuver? If I can get a decent list of gear that can be used for dirty tricks or examples from different books, I can pull together enough of a "pre-defined" repertoire to pull it off.
To me Brawler seems a much better starting point, all the fun none of the restrictions, and martial versatility gives you options when dirty trick isn't going to cut it.
To me Brawler seems a much better starting point, all the fun none of the restrictions, and martial versatility gives you options when dirty trick isn't going to cut it.This is a fair point, but the Brawler still isn't going to get more than 1 dirty trick opportunity a round. The methods that let you get in multiple shots, thus debilitating an opponent, are class abilities and not feats.
Fair point though if you really want to just Debilitate an opponent then just take a gander at Vexing Dodger it takes Dirty Tricks to a new level with upgrading sickened to nauseated as in "All your standard action Belong to Us"
plus its targeted unlike a stinking cloud so your friends can pile on
To me Brawler seems a much better starting point, all the fun none of the restrictions, and martial versatility gives you options when dirty trick isn't going to cut it.This is a fair point, but the Brawler still isn't going to get more than 1 dirty trick opportunity a round. The methods that let you get in multiple shots, thus debilitating an opponent, are class abilities and not feats.Fair point though if you really want to just Debilitate an opponent then just take a gander at Vexing Dodger it takes Dirty Tricks to a new level with upgrading sickened to nauseated as in "All your standard action Belong to Us"
plus its targeted unlike a stinking cloud so your friends can pile on
That's a pretty cool archetype; Rogue could use more like it. That said, I'd hardly call it "taking Dirty Tricks to a new level." If you want to debilitate you go Dirty Trick Master, especially with the Dirty Fighter archetyped Fighter. Having to make two dirty trick attempts for nauseated/dazed/etc. is still much more reliable than a 1/2 lvl + int (i.e. an unimportant rogue stat) fortitude save, especially as unless you are small sized, Vexing Dodger is only working on large or above enemies and that tends to mean high fort.
As mentioned, I've played a Manuever Master Monk at lvl5 and he had a very high success rate.
Main stats were Str and Wis (the 0-ki swift action to add Wis to a CMB check was great).
Opening with Trip gives +4 to CMB, while opening with Blind denies Dex and gives +2 to Trip (and other maneuvers, which can be attempted without the Improved feat since blind opponents don't make AoOs).
In one fight against an NPC enemy party, he was just stomping on the poor elf druid until our TWF ninja showed up to finish her off. She couldn't get out of the action lock of trip and blind.
I think the Skulking Slayer sounds more promising in the long run than the Vexing Dodger since you can perform multiple dirty tricks per round and there isn't a Fort save to worry about. In the very long run the Dirty Fighter might still be the best, but the Skulking Slayer's ability to pump out dirty tricks quickly starting at low levels sounds pretty compelling too.
In case anybody is interested I'll put my current PC's planned build in the button below.
1(f1) f1-Combat Expertise, 1-Improved Trip
2(m1) m1-IUS m1-Combat Reflexes
3(f2) f2-Vicious Stomp, 3-Enforcer
4(m2) m2-Toughness
5(f3) f3-(mutagen), 5-Intimidating Prowess
6(f4) f4-Improved Dirty Trick
7(f5) 7-Greater Trip
8(f6) f6-Power Attack
9(f7) 9-Hurtful f7-(tentacle)
10(f8) f8-ImpCrit(heavy flail)
11(f9) 11-Greater Dirty Trick
12(f10) f10-Dirty Trick Master
13(f11) 13-WFoc(heavy flail) f11-(wings)
14(f12) f12-GWFoc(heavy flail)
15(f13) 15-*f6-WSpec(heavy flail)
16(ftr14) f14-GWSpec(heavy flail)
17(ftr15) 17-INArmor f15-(greater mutagen)
In addition to the Dirty Fighter archetype he took the Mutation Warrior archetype. The problem with this combo is that it requires mithral full plate to get his full Dex bonus to AC. He’s on a quest to make himself “The Perfect Orc” and believes that using alchemy to give himself a devil’s wings and tail is part of reaching that goal. It will also allow him to use a heavy flail while holding a buckler with his tail (which is technically a tentacle and gives him Grab as another tactical option). The bonus to disarm from using a flail combined with the AC boost from Sidestep has also emboldened him to use Disarm quite a lot. Eventually he'll get his buckler enchanted as a Burglar's Buckler for +2 on Dirty Trick checks.
We’re currently just about to reach 9th level, and my Dirty Tricks are still being used just for special occasions whereas Greater Trip + Vicious Stomp + Enforcer (and soon Hurtful) are the bane of non-flying foes. I could have taken Quick Dirty Trick as the 6th level Fighter bonus feat and then swapped it out later, but I was more interested in getting the Hurtful feat and enjoying Trip to its fullest before lots of foes end up flying around at higher levels. Intimidating Prowess seems like kind of a wasted feat so far since Enforcer ensures a good duration on the demoralize effect even if you barely succeed on the intimidate check (which is actually pretty hard to fail with max ranks)
I figure that I’ll begin to transition over to using Dirty Tricks as my primary tactic around level 12. I’m also hoping to catch some enemies at the intersection of Trip and Dirty Trick so I can use Dirty Trick as AoO with Greater Trip. A prone foe with a debilitating effect or two from Dirty Trick might have some tough choices to make. I figure that Prone+Pinned+Blind would pretty much ruin their day (especially since the party also has a TWF Ninja)
@Neal - I was planning to propose a house rule allowing the victim to remove effects imposed by a dirty trick with a standard action even if the effect in question would normally prevent the victim from using standard actions. You could still pretty much shut down a foe you can consistently make CMB checks against, but that's not very different from Grapple (though there's no Freedom of Movement to stop dirty tricks)
@Gwen - Being vague in your description of the dirty tricks might help certain DMs relax and accept the in game effects. Of course part of the fun of dirty tricks is describing just how your PC tricks the foe, but some DMs might find some descriptions improbable or silly and focus too much on the description instead of the rules.