Echo4 Romeo's interpretation poses a harsh scenario for a solo character. Each time you move to the Teleportation Chamber you would only have 1/3 of a chance to stay there.
S&S is already extremely harsh for solo characters. Nothing new there.
Hey kids, chill. We'll talk about this.
Also, this may be my favorite rules question ever.
... and it keeps on keeping on getting better (if that makes any sense in English).
I fully agree Mike, this takes the first spot in the can of worms weekly not-this-Mike contest. I'm all excited waiting from final ruling by the Paizo team.
Josh,
Now you're getting it. Yes, I do make those assumptions.. and you know what? It works just fine.It may have made perfect sense to the game designer when it was created. Obviously some people have had difficulty with how it's written which has led the game designers to agree to address the issue in an FAQ - but that's not because something was missing necessarily...it's because something was misunderstood by most of the community.
I believe I understand how it was intended to be played and I play it that way. All I did was share that with everyone because I thought I could explain how I have managed to make it work. You don't have to agree with me, just don't misquote me.
Put aside the question of how the card should for just a moment, and focus on the text that is actually present on the card. Now read that text against the text of all of the other Skull & Shackles locations. What should become immediately clear is that text is missing. The breakdown of timing that appears on every other location that does anything other than modify difficulty doesn't appear on Teleportation Chamber. This absence isn't a question of interpretation, text is simply missing.
People reacted strongly to your posts not because of how you argued that the card should work, but because you argued that a) no text was missing , and that b) the intent of the card was self-evident as written. Making the card 'work' and playing it correctly are two entirely different things. For instance, the way I played Jolly Roger "worked" just fine, but last week we fond out that it was wrong. You posts seemed to conflate "worked" with correct. My apologies for my role in escalating tension in the conversation.
To get back to how the card should work, I think that the trigger should occur at the end of the move step/start of the explore step. This would give a single clear trigger that would prevent you from moving after the teleportation.
If that truly makes the scenario too difficult for solo play (though, if you made it through Free Captain's Ragatta solo, I doubt a simple telport chamber can stop you) you could potential change the card so that it can only teleport you to open locations. That way you could always confront the chamber when you had closed other locations.
As for the question of villains and henchmen, I would argue that you can close locations or even win the scenario through the encounters generated by closing the teleport chamber. I am eager to hear the fina decision on these by the design team.
Ok so what's your logical justification for the timing being after the move phase and what existing text on the cards leads you to feel that way?
The short answer is that I think that timing is the best way to preserve the power of the card while side-stepping the addition of additional clunky rules, but I will explain that in full at the end.
Let's go back to the text of the card.
"At this Location: Chose a random character. If that character is at another location, move to this location; otherwise, move to a random location."
you argue that
This phrase implies that whatever text follows immediately applies to any active character who satisfies it. Moving there makes the phrase immediately true. Starting your turn there makes the phrase immediately true.
But that's far too narrow a reading of the text. If a text has no trigger, it applies to everyone at the location, not just the active character. For instance, any character at the floating shipyard adds three to all checks to repair ships. The active character is irrelevant; if you are at the floating ship yard, you get that plus three.
While it is true that location text applies when you start your turn at a location or when move there, it also applies in far more circumstances. The text applies continuously as long as you are at the location. That's the problem with the teleport effect; you assume it should be a one time event, but without a trigger other than the presence of the character at the location, the event would continue ad infinitum until no characters remained in the chamber.
You aren't actually arguing for the existing wording of the text. You are arguing that the card should read.
"At this Location: When you start your turn or move to this location, chose a random character. If that character is at another location, move to this location; otherwise, move to a random location."
You can argue that this should be the text of the card, but you can't argue that this is what the card says in its present form, or that we should all infer this as the proper wording from the existing text of the card.
On to my argument for timing. One problem with triggering the power at the start of the turn is that it makes it far less interesting. You get teleported to some location you don't want to be at, but you just walk away during your move step. Your solution to this is
Also, the event should take the place of the "voluntary" movement step in the triggering character's turn sequence if they are the one randomly chosen to teleport and thus they must finish out their turn where they land.
The problem with this is that their is absolutely nothing in the text of the card that supports this rule. You recognize a very real problem, but your attempt to solve it isn't grounded anywhere in the card text, and is exceptionally clunky. You are actually arguing that the card text should look like this.
"At this Location: When you start your turn or move to this location, chose a random character. If that character is at another location, move to this location; otherwise, move to a random location. If you move to a random location, you lose you ability to move for the turn."
My suggestion for timing stems from a desire to solve this same problem but avoid the rules hack about movement. Here is the text I would propose.
"At this Location: At the end of your movement phase, chose a random character. If that character is at another location, move to this location; otherwise, move to a random location."
I think that text preserves the function of the card, without adding unnecessary rules.
Contrary to your method of applying purely subjective statements and suggesting the text should be altered; my justification for losing your ability to move (if you're the one that is teleported) is actually rules based!
Please quote the rule you are citing.
No, but I see no reason to assume that forced movement that takes place before your movement step precludes your movement step. Your are making up rules.
This is why after a few tests we decided that - until Team Lisa decides othewise - we will play that location as if the power was: if after your move step you are at this location, then immediately....
The rational behind this proposition was :
- we wanted the chamber to blink only once per turn to avoid loop disasters
- we wanted it to blink after you have your normal move else what's the point if you can undo the teleport move via your free move
- we wanted the blink to happen before you can explore else what's the point if you cam come back to explore next turn
- we wanted the text to apply as soon as you are moved to the location (respecting the tricky hidden golden rule that location powers only trigger at the time of their triggers - i. e. If a location says "at the end of your turn nadanadanada" then nadanadanada doesn't happen if you are at this location during your turn but manage to move away before the end of turn)
- we love trying to best bet what will be the final MikyproposedVicyimposed FAQeued rule
@Echo4:
Here is the fundamental problem with assuming that the card works the way you say it does. It doesn't say that.
We can all agree that the card doesn't just constantly teleport, as that would be unplayable.
But it could trigger on any of these examples from RotR:
"If you fail a combat check" [City Gate]
"On your first exploration on a turn, if you encounter anything other than a spell" [Academy]
"When you move or are moved here" [Temple]
"At the start of your turn" [Shadow Clock, Guard Tower, Mountain Peak, Throne Room, Runewell, Swallowtail Festival, Habe's Sanatorium]
"If you encounter a blessing" [Shrine to Lamashtu]
"If you did not explore this turn" [Apothecary]
"If you would defeat a bane with the Undead trait" [Desecrated Vault]
"If you would discard an ally" [Farmhouse]
"If you encounter a monster other than a villain or a henchman" [Garrison]
"If you encounter anything other than an armor, an item, or a weapon" [General Store]
"If you defeat a monster" [Sandpoint Cathedral]
"If you play a spell with the Arcane trait" [Thassilonian Dungeon]
"When attempting a check to acquire an ally" [Village House]
"When using a weapon" [Waterfront]
"When you encounter a monster" [Warrens]
"When you attempt a combat check" [Fort Rannick]
"At the end of your turn" [Turtleback Ferry]
"Before any combat here" [Courtyard]
"When you encounter a boon" [Scarnetti Manor]
"If you acquire a spell" [Thassilonian Library]
"If you fail a combat check" [Halls of Wrath]
"If you fail to acquire an ally" [Iron Cages of Lust, The Rusty Dragon]
"When you succeed at a check" [Shimmering Veils of Pride]
"If you acquire an item" [Vault of Greed]
"If you fail a check" [Glassworks]
"When you acquire an item" [Junk Beach]
What you are proposing is that with all of these examples of triggers (and potentially more as I don't have my S&S here to pull from) it should be obvious that the intended trigger is "When you move here and at the start of your turn" which to my memory has never even been a trigger on a location card.
Also, just for the record, you can move twice on the same turn. There are multiple spells, allies and items that allow you to move outside of your move step. Not to mention specific player's powers, like Amiri, Jirelle & Feiya. Your move step is guaranteeing you one voluntary move, not limiting you to a single move. A card will not prevent you from taking that move unless it expressly states that it does.
As the rules say:
Cards Do What They Say. Read any card as it is encountered or played, and do what it says as soon as it makes sense. Let the card tell you what to do, and don’t impose limitations that aren’t there. You can play an armor card even if there isn’t one in your deck list. You can play a Cure spell even if it’s not your turn. You can play a blessing on a check even if someone else has played one. Cards say everything they need to say.
Cards Don’t Do What They Don’t Say. Each card’s powers reference specific situations, and if you’re not in those situations, you can’t play it. If a card says it works on “any check,” you can play it on anyone’s check, but if a card says “your check,” it only works on yours. You can’t play a Cure spell to reduce the amount of damage you’re taking, because Cure isn’t about reducing damage. You can’t play Spyglass to examine a deck that has no cards. Your weapon doesn’t help you acquire new weapons. Each card tells you what it’s for, and you can use it only for that.
Clearly this card does not say everything it needs to say, so there is an error. You're welcome to play it whatever way you assume to be correct, but we don't know what the correct method is until we get an official ruling from Paizo & Lone Shark.
I would have assumed it was just an "At the start of your turn" thing, as the is the single most common. But thankfully, I'm way behind on S&S so it will be addressed before I need to use the location card.
Hi everyone, this one is for Mike who loves real played examples rather than theory (which position I fully support).
This is what happened (really) when we played the Ruins of Sumitha scenario yesterday. I'll try to remember all questions we had on the fly. Some may already have an answer but there was a lot of complexity.
2 locations left : the teleportation chamber and the Ghol-gan ruins. Ship docked at the ruins. Merisiel at the ruins. Alahazra at the chamber. The three other characters (incl. me as Lirianne) at some other location we just closed.
Merisiel's turn :
Merisiel moves to teleport chamber. We rule it triggers the blink. Alahazra gets randomly picked and is teleported to the runis. OK until now.
Merisiel explores. Find an Cyclops Savage henchman. Defeats the savage via Wall of Fire. Decides to try closing the location.
It says to examine top card of an open location : no choice, we flip the top location of the ruins... and it's the villain Ishtoreth. The chamber says : defeat the villain. Ooops then we have an issue... should we temporary close the chamber first ? We rule not since if we said yes there would be an obvious infinite loop starting.
Second question : if we defeat the villain can he escape to the chamber ? to the ruins ? Are the ruins closed ? Is the chamber closed before or after the villain can escape to it ? Do we just win the scenario if Merisiel defeats the villain ?
OK we ruled that if indeed the villain is defeated, then by definition the ruins are closed, and the chamber too, so we would win. Luckily that was not feeling like cheating since there was only 3-4 mostly boons cards in each location and plenty of time on the blessing deck, but still we weren't that confident.
And now for the "Vic says you encounter at your location" part of the fun: Merisiel, at the chamber had to defeat the villain at the ruins. The villain has 2 checks to defeat. Can Alahazra at the ruins do one of them? If someone was with Merisiel at the chmaber, can he do one of them? Since Alahazra is at the same place of the ship, providing she can make one of the checks, can I (Lirianne, elsewhere) play Svingli's Eye to help her check? Is the Wall of Fire in the chamber affecting the villain?.... And I'm sure I forgot some...
That was a fun can o worms...
Wow, busy. I'm not going to add to the trigger part - we've pretty much all said our piece.
And now for the "Vic says you encounter at your location" part of the fun: Merisiel, at the chamber had to defeat the villain at the ruins. The villain has 2 checks to defeat. Can Alahazra at the ruins do one of them? If someone was with Merisiel at the chmaber, can he do one of them? Since Alahazra is at the same place of the ship, providing she can make one of the checks, can I (Lirianne, elsewhere) play Svingli's Eye to help her check? Is the Wall of Fire in the chamber affecting the villain?.... And I'm sure I forgot some...
That was a fun can o worms...
The "encounter is at your location bit" would mean that anyone who wants to help meri needs to be at the sam location as her, not the villain. That much is clear from the Alahazra thread and Vic's comment. The only contention (as to the encounter's location)is which location closes when you defeat a villain or henchman - henchmen specifically say "the location it came from" to make it more obvious for summon encounters.
Actually, I think I figured it out here, guys. The next post after Vic's says (and is not contradicted) that you summon the card to encounter. If we word it like that, then don't all the cans of worms get solved? If you try to close the Teleportation chamber and flip over the Villain at the Woods, then you don't have to temp close the Teleportation Chamber because you summoned the villain there - rather, you need to temp close the Woods. How does that sound?
The iffy part is the Henchmen - they say "location it came from," and even though you summoned them, they DID come from a location. That, at least, needs clarification.
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Actually, I'm not sure about the villain and/or the henchman and the ability to close. You do have villains that are summoned but don't close a location after you defeat them. So wouldn't this still fit that category? You examine the open location, find a bane that happens to be a villain/henchman, defeat his check and put him back on top of the location he came from.
Is there really a chance for it to escape? He's not being encountered at the location he came from. Is he really being encountered at all? Isn't it just a Check to Defeat? (It says defeat the bane to close the location not encounter and defeat.)
The iffy part is the Henchmen - they say "location it came from," and even though you summoned them, they DID come from a location. That, at least, needs clarification.
But if you're summoning them, aren't you in essence summoning a copy that comes from no location?
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The iffy part is the Henchmen - they say "location it came from," and even though you summoned them, they DID come from a location. That, at least, needs clarification.But if you're summoning them, aren't you in essence summoning a copy that comes from no location?
Well, the bane does come from a location but the card doesn't actually say you're encountering them. It says that you simply need to defeat them to close the Teleporation Chamber location. (So it's acting like a summon.)
So maybe the card should say - examine the top card of a random location and, if it's a bane, summon a copy of that card and defeat to close. If it's a boon, close. Reworded nicely, of course. Otherwise, it looks like you are encountering that card and dealing with the consequences of defeating it or not.
"Summon and defeat a copy" seems to fix all the issues to me.
So far, ordinary monsters and barriers haven't been summoned so it would maybe need clarifying that when you examine the top card and it's a bane, that summoning a copy means use that card but then put it back right where you found it after you go through the steps of encountering it (before you act, after you act, etc.). Since you would encounter a copy, it's not from that deck. Nothing comes out of the box.
"Summon and defeat a copy" seems to fix all the issues to me.Yeah, if that was FAQ'd for the card, it'd work.
I don't think it was the intention for a villain to be found and have two locations closed. (Or a henchman.)
I agree.
Just for information, until ruled by Mike/Vic, we agreed to play it as if we had that FAQ :
On the location Teleportation Chamber, change the "At This Location" section to start by:
"If you end your move step at this location, then immediately chose a random character. If that character...
Replace the last part of the "When closing" section by:
"If you did not find a bane, automatically close this location. If you did find a bane with no check to defeat, this location stays open. If you did find a bane with check(s) to defeat, succeed at these check(s) to close this location."
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Just for information, until ruled by Mike/Vic, we agreed to play it as if we had that FAQ :
On the location Teleportation Chamber, change the "At This Location" section to start by:
"If you end your move step at this location, then immediately chose a random character. If that character...
Interestingly, we were going to play it "At the start of your turn, chose a random character..."
This way you get to at least explore it the first time.
Theryon, the problem with start of your turn is that it allows you to move after you are teleported, which will limit the impact of the card.
Theryon, the problem with start of your turn is that it allows you to move after you are teleported, which will limit the impact of the card.
The problem with at the end of your move step is it makes the location nearly impossible to explore in a solo game and very difficult to explore in a two or three player game.
"At This Location:
At the end of your move step, choose a random character. If that character is at another location, move her to this location; otherwise, move her to a random open location."
"When Closing:
Examine the top card of a random other open location deck, if any. If you did not find a bane, automatically close this location; otherwise, summon and defeat a copy of the bane to close this location."
How's that?
I like Orbis' solution for the "when closing". I think the key thing about the "at this location" is the open location. If you close all the other locations first, then the Teleportation Chamber can't send you anywhere. I think that for small parties this will have to be the strategy, which kinda takes away some of the fun of the thing, I guess.
If it's a start of turn thing sending a random character to any location, then I could see chancing it because you can move back to the Teleportation Chamber. Other characters might find themselves starting at an inconvenient location but you can try to get through the Teleportation Chamber before closing all the other locations maybe.
I like Orbis' version too. Maybe "choose another random character" instead of "choose a random character" would be better, though?
I have no opinion on how this card should or should not be worded, but I just wanted to highlight something, which is other possible ways the effect could work or could be seen as a negative:
1. At the start of your turn. This can still have a negative impact. If another character is chosen, you may no longer be able to temporarily close all locations. Or if there are locations that are hard to leave or that penalize you for being there or moving there, you would have to deal with those things.
2. At the end of your turn. If you are chosen you may no longer be spread out for the villain. If you get forces to start your turn at a location with a penalty to leave or a penalty for starting there.
Both those depend on the other locations that are in the scenario. I've not looked closely at the scenario to know.
3. After you explore. This would allow everyone to move and make 1 exploration. It doesn't overly penalize the solo player, but would still be annoying (especially depending on other locations).
So, just throwing those out there to illustrate that there are penalties for being moved, even if, in the general rules of the game, you can move right back.
"At This Location:
At the end of your move step, choose a random character. If that character is at another location, move her to this location; otherwise, move her to a random open location.""When Closing:
Examine the top card of a random other open location deck, if any. If you did not find a bane, automatically close this location; otherwise, summon and defeat a copy of the bane to close this location."How's that?
Hi Orbis.
OK for the "At location" part.
However IMHO, I do prefer my version for the When Closing becaue if you summon and defeat, then the before you act, if undefeated and if defeated powers of the copy you summon may bring tricky rules issues.
Anyway, will see the official Xmas gift
At least we have clarity, even if the impact of the location is drastically reduced.
Any progress on an official response to the issues raised in this thread regarding the When Closing text?
In particular, if my character is closing the Teleportation Chamber, and in this attempt draws the top card of a random other location and finds the villain, what happens?
The exact wording is still being massaged, but the answer is that you don't encounter the card, you just use the examined card's checks as the check to close this location.
Sounds like the solution Orbis proposed, take on a copy. But not an actual encounter which might have some subtle difference?
.. you just use the examined card's checks as the check to close this location.
Sooo ... If it's only a target number for closing check that we're drawing, does that mean:
- we don't take any dmg on failure
- if it's a Ghost, it doesn't actually care if we use a magic weapon
- the monster cant raise its difficulty with a "Make a SKILL X check or difficulty is increased..." powers (as discussed in another thread, about determining the 'Highest difficulty' of a card) ?
Personally, I think that flavor-wise you SHOULD encounter the monster (I mean, that's what the closing power emulates, right - it *teleports* a monster to you from another location?), but you should also make it a part of your location deck - so if it's a Henchman - tough luck for you, you already closed the TC by beating him, and you can't use his power on his former location; if it's the Villain and you beat him - you may actually win the game, should you have anther char to temp-close its former location, and if you don't beat him - at least now you know the Villain is staying at the TC and you can pay him a visit when you're better prepared.
.. you just use the examined card's checks as the check to close this location.Personally, I think that flavor-wise you SHOULD encounter the monster (I mean, that's what the closing power emulates, right - it *teleports* a monster to you from another location?), but you should also make it a part of your location deck
Well that's the question, is the intent that the TC brings a monster to you or that you go to the monster? If the latter, then you have potential problems if it's a villain because then you want to do temp closes, including at the TC! If it's the former, the monster comes to you, and it's a villain, can you temp close other locations?
Plus you want a solution that fits on the card ...
The exact wording is still being massaged, but the answer is that you don't encounter the card, you just use the examined card's checks as the check to close this location.
I would suggest looking into using the phrase "Highest difficulty to defeat." If you're not actually encountering the card, then making only one check seems logical to me - it's like you're using that check for the TC's check.
I still think "summon and encounter a copy" would be the easiest solution, though.
Not that I mean to sound like I know better than you guys, or anything else negative, just providing input. Keep up the good work!
... the answer is that you don't encounter the card, you just use the examined card's checks as the check to close this location.I would suggest looking into using the phrase "Highest difficulty to defeat." ...
Hi again on this one Orbis and Vic.
So at the end of the day, it seems what we really want to get as a result is :
Examine card
1) If it's not a bane, automatically process to close Teleportation Chamber (check if there is a villain...).
2) If it's a bane with no check to defeat, nothing happens and Teleportation Chamber stays open.
3) If it's a bane with check(s) to defeat, estimate the Highest Difficulty to Defeat Check of the card - as per previous FAQ - and attempt it. If it's a success, process to close Teleportation Chamber (check if there is a villain...), if not nothing happens and Teleportation Chamber stays open."
Now if we can "massage" that in 2-3 lines on a card, we are good.
Like Vic said, we're still working on it. I think there's universal agreement that we don't want the card to leave the location deck, so we're just finding a way to do that better than we currently have now. We're pretty sure that encountering it makes too many things happen that we can't address in the space we have. So, progress.
Answered in FAQ.
Not to push it, but... What happens if we draw a bane with check to defeat "None"?? Would seem kinda unfair to be punished by not being allowed to close the TC...
Answered in FAQ.Not to push it, but... What happens if we draw a bane with check to defeat "None"?? Would seem kinda unfair to be punished by not being allowed to close the TC...
That's exactly how it reads to me right now - you don't get to close it.