Echo4 Romeo's page

No, but I see no reason to assume that forced movement that takes place before your movement step precludes your movement step. Your are making up rules.

Really. What a surprise...

Echo4 Romeo wrote:

Contrary to your method of applying purely subjective statements and suggesting the text should be altered; my justification for losing your ability to move (if you're the one that is teleported) is actually rules based!

Please quote the rule you are citing.

Well in my quote above I did not cite a rule, technically.

The rule to which I am referring is on S&S rulebook page 8: under "Your Turn"
"Take your turn by going through the following steps in order...."
Advance Blessing Deck...
Give a card...
"Move: You may move your token card to another location."
Explore...
Close a location...
Reset your hand...
End your turn...

Pretty sure is doesn't go:
Give a card...
Move as many times as you want before you explore...
Explore...

Are you going to argue that you can move as many times as you want now? I think that's another thread.

Oh and the reason I assume it is a one-time trigger is because it makes the game almost unplayable if it isn't . My justification is that I think it's safe to assume that the designers did not intend the game to be nigh unplayable, therefore it is a one-time-per-turn event.

I also think that the designers assumed the players would also notice how unplayable that "always on" scenario would make the game and maybe they didn't feel the need to spell it out because they thought we were all smart enough to figure it out for ourselves. Do you need someone to tell you "don't jump off that bridge?" Some people do, actually, but most people realize that there could be nasty side effects, so they don't jump. Most people don't need signs posted all along the roadways reminding us which side of the road to drive on, either.

Remember that spot in the rulebook that says "A card says what it needs to... just read the card."? I don't really know what they meant by that, but when I'm confused by a card's instructions (which does happen) I always go back to that quote and re - read it. Then I try to interpret the card the way it is. Why do I do that? Cause the designer told me to, and I figure he's way smarter than me.

@Birk

You know your theory and mine aren't that different. They both seek to interpret a card whose existing wording does indeed require some implications. Could adding certain text help to clarify? Of course! But I am not arguing that it should read any different than it does - those are your words not mine. I am indeed suggesting that it can be interpreted without adding anything.

There is one stark difference between our theories. My interpretation relies on making objective implications regarding the existing text on the card and existing rules. Yes, you read that right - existing rules, not made up ones, as you suggest.

To support your theory above, you did not reference any implications based on any text that exists on the card (which is what I asked you to do, by the way). Timing of the event should not be at the beginning of the turn "because it makes it far less interesting", is the sum of your theory. Then you immediately went back to trying to rip holes in my explanation again.

Contrary to your method of applying purely subjective statements and suggesting the text should be altered; my justification for losing your ability to move (if you're the one that is teleported) is actually rules based!

Why is it obvious that you should loose your right to move if you are the one that's teleported away after the event triggers? Because if you are the one chosen to teleport, and you move to a random location, you do just that - you MOVE. Even though it was random and involuntary, you did, in fact, move. And since you cannot move twice in the same turn, you must finish your turn where you land.

So besides the fact that the "move once per turn" rule is indeed an actual game rule, it also has the handy side effect of preventing you from moving back to the Teleportation room and thus trigger the effect again on the same turn. But that's really beside the point.

You actually wrote that "there is absolutely nothing in the text of the card that supports this rule".

Well, it's because there doesn't need to be text on the card to support basic game rules - you and I both know that. I think you are overlooking that. Who needs those "exceptionally clunky" games rules anyway?

Example: You are not allowed to play more than one card of the same type on the same check (unless a card says otherwise) but this rule is also not written on any of the cards. Does it need to be? No. It only needs to be written on the cards when it overrides the rule. Like the power that allows you to use a dagger to add 1d4 to a combat check as long as you played another weapon previously on the same check.

Then in your conclusion (to a theory which did not base any implications on what was actually ON the card, but, again, spent most of the time telling me where my theory seemed to be wrong) you simply say that if you add certain text to indicate timing to the card, "it preserves the function of the card without adding unnecessary rules." Right, unnecessary rules like 'You can only move one per turn.'

To get back to how the card should work, I think that the trigger should occur at the end of the move step/start of the explore step. This would give a single clear trigger that would prevent you from moving after the teleportation.

If that truly makes the scenario too difficult for solo play (though, if you made it through Free Captain's Ragatta solo, I doubt a simple telport chamber can stop you) you could potential change the card so that it can only teleport you to open locations. That way you could always confront the chamber when you had closed other locations.

As for the question of villains and henchmen, I would argue that you can close locations or even win the scenario through the encounters generated by closing the teleport chamber. I am eager to hear the fina decision on these by the design team.

Ok so what's your logical justification for the timing being after the move phase and what existing text on the cards leads you to feel that way?

When I explained why I felt the power activated immediately upon arriving or starting at the location, I validated it with, what I felt where straightforward logical implications based on the words that existed on the card.

Words like "At this location" which every location card has. This phrase implies that whatever text follows immediately applies to any active character who satisfies it. Moving there makes the phrase immediately true. Starting your turn there makes the phrase immediately true.

Then in a location cards power field, most cards go on to give secondary conditions to satisfy before it goes into effect like "During exploration" or "if encountered". But those words aren't here so, by default, condition 1, "at this location" applies.

Echo4 Romeo's interpretation poses a harsh scenario for a solo character. Each time you move to the Teleportation Chamber you would only have 1/3 of a chance to stay there.

Precisely.

The issue isn't whether or not your game is broken or how you choose to play the game in your particular group. Your game isn't broken because you have made a number of assumptions about how the card works that aren't on the card. You assume that the card triggers both when you start and when you move to the location. You assume that if it triggers when you start at a location, it then overrides normal rules of movement.

Of course you can make it work that way, but that's not how the rules on the card are written, nor is it clear if it is how the designers intend the game to work. At the end of the day your interpretation of the cards may actually be right, but we need the cards to actually tell us that.

Josh,

It may have made perfect sense to the game designer when it was created. Obviously some people have had difficulty with how it's written which has led the game designers to agree to address the issue in an FAQ - but that's not because something was missing necessarily...it's because something was misunderstood by most of the community.

I believe I understand how it was intended to be played and I play it that way. All I did was share that with everyone because I thought I could explain how I have managed to make it work. You don't have to agree with me, just don't misquote me.

@Hawk
No hard feelings. I got a little steamed up there with everybody attacking my post all at the same time.

Seriously, the way I play the location works just fine using the assumptions I listed.

Echo4, literally everyone in the thread disagrees with, and that includes a number of veteran players and vocal posters. That doesn't necessarily mean your wrong, but it does mean you should reflect for a bit and take some time to seriously consider the views of the rest of the community.

This card doesn't contain text that is one every other location.* The interpretation you offer isn't at all clear, and the designers themselves have said that the need to address this card in the FAQ.

Personally, I find it infuriating that chide other people for not "Read[ing] everything before replying," when you have failed to take the time to understand why your views differ from the whole of the community.

* Again, I am excluding cards that offer modifiers to dice rolls, those operate differently.

Josh,

Here's the long and short of it:
once per turn
it happens as soon as you start or move there
it doesn't loop
it doesn't blink
it's not a death ray
it doesn't change the order of events for the rest of your turn
it doesn't end your turn
it is not green
it is not ham
and it dang sure isn't named Sam I am...

My game isn't broken - I understand it just fine and that's all I've been trying to tell you all! There is a way to play the game with the card in a manner that works fine for me. I posted it, nobody understood it and you know what?..I don't care! The fact is, it works just fine the way I explained it and I don't care if you guys can't figure it out. You're all more interested in arguing about it than trying to understand how I have managed to make it work. And that tells me you all don't really care how it really works - you just like to argue. Well, I don't.

"It happens NOW because YOU are there" is the most vague rule/trigger I have ever heard an explanation for in a game. It happens NOW when I start my turn there? It happens NOW when I end my turn there? It happens NOW when I explore? Move there? Encounter a bane? Encounter a boon? Recharge a card? Play a spell?

All of those have very different and significant results that alter strategy. Like Hawkmoon said, without a trigger, anyone could argue that you would have to check for the teleportation every single time you did anything there short of breathing.

Quite the contrary. "Now" is not vague. And you clearly didn't read or understand my first post.

When your mom yells at you to clean your room and she tells you to do it "now" do you ask her the same stupid question?

"What does "now" mean, Mom?" The she slaps your dumb ass in the face and says "It means this instant smartass, as in before you do anything else now shut up and do it!"

That sound about right?

@Hawk,
I think you misunderstood the light example. First, I never said it was "always on". I said your presence always activates it.

Also, in my first post I did list among the required assumptions that you must assume the event can only trigger once per turn. Seems like you guys just read the first few lines of something before you jump to conclusions and I think that's why you're not understanding the rule.

And, also, I did say in my light example that the "light goes off again" but thanks for clarifying.

The rest of your long example is flawed from the first sentence because you never read my entire first post. Amend your example as such: Sam triggers it; John is selected and teleported to the room with Sam. Now Sam can explore and finish his turn as I stated in my first post. It's not John's turn because Sams turn never concluded. NOWHERE ON THE CARD does it suggest that Sams turn ends after the teleportation. And I never said it which means you just made it up so you could argue with me about it. Ridiculous. It's called reading: left to right, top to bottom. The small pieces are called words, and you can put several words together to form a sentence...just don't put words where there aren't any and you should be fine.

Good luck with your game - mine works just fine. I'm done. Peace.

So, Romeo, you're saying that being there is the trigger - so as long as anyone is there, the ability moves someone, ad infinitum, until that player is randomly selected and is moved away? Because that is what you're implying. A "trigger" can't be continuous like this or it never stops happening. It is missing a trigger because it doesn't list a specific event. The event can't be "a player is here" because that doesn't have a concrete point in time in which it happens. Besides, this would mean you never get to explore this location.

And if you're saying it only happens when you arrive at the Chamber, the proper wording for that would be "when you move to this location..." If saying nothing implied it only happened when you moved there, continuous effects like those that make banes more difficult would only apply for the split second in which you arrive, which makes no sense.

Wow you guys read to much into it. You're putting words in my mouth.

If you start your turn there, it triggers at the beginning of YOUR turn. There is no infinite loop if you assume it happens prior to your voluntary move phase, once per turn as I stated in my first post. Read everything before replying please.

If the player who starts his turn there is not the randomly selected character then he doesn't move. Read the card. The event happens, another player is brought to the room, but that player cannot trigger the event immediately again because it is not their turn! The triggering character didn't move so they are allowed to explore. Holy cow. It's not that hard to understand.

The card is missing a trigger, period. You realize you just posted a long post about how you can obviously assume certain triggers, only to end it by saying not to interpret something that isn't there. Locations always tell you their triggers. This isn't just some card where they decided we should make assumptions that aren't there, it's missing text.

It's not missing a trigger, lol. It's has the same primary trigger (or condition) as ALL locations...YOU.

Don't try and interpret something that isn't there...in this case there is no secondary condition to trigger the effect. So stop looking for one because it isn't there.

YOU are there and the effect is thus triggered.

Sometimes it's hard to see the forest through the trees.

"A card says what it needs to, and doesn't mean what it doesn't say."

First of all, the card doesn't say what it needs to. You absolutely need to tell people the trigger for the power.

I would guess that the power triggers at the start of your turn, but that is just a guess. You are guessing that the power also triggers when you arrive. The card shouldn't rely on what we "feel" it should explain when it triggers. Just like every other location .

edit: I went through ever location in Skull and Shackles. Every single location (save for those that alter difficulty) has an explicit trigger that tells you when the effect occurs. This card is missing text.

Dude, there's no missing text, lol... you're just missing the text that's already there! Seriously, just answer these questions...

Q: When do location rules apply to your character?
A: Anytime you are "At This Location". That's the primary condition for ALL location rules. The primary condition applies immediately unless a secondary condition delays the effect. Right? Did I go too fast?

Ok. So are you "At" the Teleportation Room? Yes? Good. Any secondary conditions here? No? Then the rule goes into effect NOW. It's really that simple. Go ahead and process that.

Still confused? Let me put a different spin on it for you by using two example statements:

A: When in the room the light will come on.

B: When in the room, flip the switch and the light will come on.

These are slightly different events that have the same end result, yes?
Both have the same Primary Condition - the act of being in the room.
Both have the same End Result - the light comes on.

So, is there text missing from statement "A" that "fails" to tell you when the result occurs? Of course not, it's right there at the beginning of the sentence!

What delays the light from coming on in statement "B"? Answer: the secondary condition of flipping the switch. Does that make statement "A" incorrect or incomplete because it lacks a secondary condition? Of course not.

You're just so used to looking for a switch on the wall to flip that you're surprised and confused when it's a motion sensitive light that is triggered by any activity in the room! Then you're confused again when, after you stand motionless for 30 seconds, the light goes off again!

Now you're just standing here shouting in the dark, "But there has to be a switch on the wall or its impossible! Where is the switch?!"

My friend - YOU are the trigger. And all locations DO have at least one trigger in common...YOU have to be there.

Just relax and enjoy the technology, man. Don't freak out because there's no switch on the wall. Absolutely hilariuos, lol.

This seems pretty straight forward. I don't think it describes a "power" that can be "used" but rather a "rule" that is in effect when arriving "at this location." I might even venture to say when starting "at this location".

That being said, I would assume the timing works like this: Anytime a player 'starts their turn at', or 'freely moves to' the Teleportation Room, the "At this location" rule is carried out before anything else is done. The random element of the rule implies that it is meant to be an involuntary movement devoid of choice and therefore it must precede the "Move" action of the character who triggers the event. How do we know this? Simple common sense: "random" implies "devoid of choice"; If the rule doesn't precede the movement step, it allows itself to be avoided by giving the character the choice to move away and not trigger it - so to impose itself as being devoid of choice and then allow the choice to avoid it would be contradictory. Therefore it only makes sense that it is meant to be unavoidable which means it can only happen prior to movement. I feel like it's purpose is to make carrying out your intentions as a party (not to mention closing this location) that much more difficult.

I'm sure everyone can figure out how to make a random character choice using any number of polyhedral die at your disposal so I won't go into that...

Some of you may foresee possible loopholes which can likely be debunked by making some assumptions as follows:
A) If the randomly chosen character ends up being the character who triggered the event:
1) Use the same random selection method (a die) to choose the destination location and be sure to include the Teleportation Room itself among the available destination locations.
2) Also, the event should only trigger 1 time per turn (this allows a player to both trigger the event and - if and only if they randomly teleport back to the Teleportation Room itself - explore it in the same turn). Both 1 & 2 make exploration possible (though difficult) in solo play. (Assuming the location is even available for solo play.)
3) Also, the event should take the place of the "voluntary" movement step in the triggering character's turn sequence if they are the one randomly chosen to teleport and thus they must finish out their turn where they land. Otherwise they can give, move, or explore at the Teleportation Room on their next action as normal.(This addresses a solo play inconsistecy where it makes sense for the event to trigger every time you enter the location thus nullifying assumption 2 but this then would allow an impossible situation that assumption 2 seeks to avoid. So assumption three eliminates the possibility to encounter this inconsistency.)
B) Any other character randomly chosen to teleport to the Teleportation room, would become a triggering character themselves at the start of their next turn, and after triggering the event (assuming they are not chosen to teleport) they would be free to give, move, or explore etc. as normal.

I think those assumptions will stand up to any logical problem you might encounter as well as make the game more challenging.

A card says what it needs to, and doesn't mean what it doesn't say. Don't interpret what isn't there - only interpret what is there using common sense and logical thinking.