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So I keep browsing the forums to see comments from various fighter gurus about what each of them think is possibly wrong with the class or what could be changed or various concepts.
I mostly agreed with them, but my mind has a natural desire to question the validity of my own opinions and impressions a lot.
When I looked at the paladin, I just saw a shining beacon of being better than all the other martial classes.
When I saw the barbarian, I just saw the class take down anything and anyone, mostly because of its ability to deal with almost every non-social situation.
And when I looked at the fighter... it seemed cool at first (When I was a novice to Pathfinder), but quickly began to be inconsistent. It seems like an improved npc class to me, little more than that.
Lately I've taken a good look at Brawler and Swashbuckler and tried to compare it to the fighter and the various compaints many of you have had for the class.
Perhaps I did not address all of them, but I do believe I was able to bring the fighter in line with its hybrid cousins, who seem to be funner to play and marginally better at fighting than the fighter.
Below the class itself you'll find a few feats I thought could work for (not just the fighter) pathfinder games in general.
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Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Martial Flexibility, Fighter’s Training
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Guarded Life 1/day, Bonus feat
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Armor Training I
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Piledriver 1/day
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Weapon Training +1, Bonus Feat
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Guarded Life 2/day, Martial flexibility (swift action)
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Armor Training II
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Bonus feat
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Weapon Training +2
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Guarded Life 3/day, Martial flexibility (free action), Piledriver 2/day
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Armor Training III, Bonus feat
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Martial flexibility (immediate action)
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Weapon Training +3
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Guarded Life 4/day, Bonus Feat
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Armor Training IV
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Bonus feat, Piledriver 3/day
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Weapon Training +4, Bonus Feat
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Guarded Life 5/day
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Armor Training V
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Bonus feat, Weapon Mastery, Martial flexibility (any number)
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10
Starting Wealth: 5d6 x 10 gp (average 175gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.
The fighter’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Profession (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int mod
Martial Flexibility (Ex)
At 1st level, the fighter can use a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat he doesn't possess. This effect lasts for 1 minute. The fighter must otherwise meet all the feat's prerequisites. He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 his fighter level.
The fighter can use this ability again before the duration expires in order to replace the previous combat feat with another choice. If a combat feat has a daily use limitation (such as Stunning Fist), any uses of that combat feat while using this ability count toward that feat's daily limit. At later levels, when he gains multiple feats through this ability, the fighter can use those feats to meet the prerequisites of other feats he gains with this ability. Doing so means he cannot replace a feat currently fulfilling another's prerequisite without also replacing those feats that require it. Each individual feat selected counts toward his daily uses of this ability.
At 6th level, a fighter can use this ability to gain the benefit of two combat feats at the same time. He can select one feat as a swift action or two feats as a move action. At 10th level, a fighter can use this ability to gain the benefit of three combat feats at the same time. He can select one feat as a free action, two feats as a swift action, or three feats as a move action. At 12th level, a fighter can use this ability to gain the benefit of one combat feat as an immediate action or three combat feats as a swift action. At 20th level, a fighter can use this ability to gain the benefit of any number of combat feats as a swift action.
Fighter’s Training (Ex)
The fighter may choose a single ability score that is less than 13. It is counted as being 13 for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of combat feats. Once made, this choice can’t be changed.
Bonus Combat Feats
At 2nd level and every 3 levels thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus combat feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Combat Feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Upon reaching 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter, a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus combat feat in place of a bonus combat feat she has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus combat feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time she gains a new bonus combat feat for the level.
Guarded Life (Ex)
The fighter’s training lends her a defiance of death and unfavorable circumstances. At 2nd level, she may reroll any save and must take the second result even if it is worse. The fighter must declare her intention to do so before the save is announced to have been successful or failed.
Armor Training (Ex)
Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and gains a +1 competence bonus to his AC. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, 15th and 19th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –5 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +5 AC bonus. The fighter would lose this bonus to AC whenever he would lose his Dex bonus.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
Piledriver (Ex)
At 4th level, once per day the fighter may inflict a status effects such as Stun, Stagger, Daze, Bleed or attempt a combat maneuver together with your next attack. She must announce this intent before making her attack roll. If the fighter hits and the target takes damage from the blow, the target must succeed at a fortitude saving throw (DC = 10 + ½ fighter’s level + DEX or STR mod.) or be inflicted with the chosen effect. If the fighter chose to make a combat maneuver, he merely makes a combat maneuver roll against the target’s CMD as per usual. At 10th level, the fighter may use this ability twice per day. At 16th level, she may use it three times per day.
Weapon Training (Ex)
Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.
Weapon Mastery (Ex)
At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.
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* Feinting Prowess
Prereq: BaB +1, Combat Reflexes
You may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Charisma modifier for Bluff checks made to feint.
* Second Wind
Prereq: Diehard, Endurance, Con 15, Heroic Recovery.
Once per day, when you would otherwise be killed or knocked unconscious by an attack, you ignore the damage from that attack and gain fast healing equal to your Constitution modifier for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution modifier.
* Strength of the Mind
Prereq: 15 Int
You may use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom modifier to determine the bonus to will saves you would gain.
* Learned Mind
Prereq: 15 Wis
You may use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier to determine the bonus to Knowledge skill checks.
* Agility
Prereq: 15 Dex, Nimble Moves, Acrobatic Steps
You may make two 5 ft-steps per round.
* Force of Personality
Prereq: 15 Cha
You may use your Charisma modifier instead of your Wisdom modifier to detemine the bonus to will saves you would gain.
* Extra Piledriver
Prereq: Piledriver class feature.
You may use Piledriver an additional time per day. May be taken multiple times.
*Extra Guarded Life
Prereq: Guarded Life class feature.
You may use Guarded Life an additional time per day. May be taken multiple times.
Actually, this looks quite good.
I think the Martial Flexibility is a feature the class has been crying out for. However, I'm not so sure about the other extra abilities - and I think the fighter deserves more skill ranks.
4 + Int seems fine to me. Same as Brawler and Swashbuckler at this point.
Thoughts behind the extra abilities:
*Guarded Life
Swashbuckler essentially replaces Bravery for Charmed Life allowing him to add his Cha modifier to any saving throw of his choice a number of times per day. (To be precise, it's 3 at level 2 and 7 at maximum.) Meanwhile this allows one reroll per day and 5 at maximum.
What this means essentially, is while the fighter does not gain any bonuses to his saves, any bonuses he does pick up grant him a bigger net gain, or otherwise known as scaling. This is a very indirect way of making things like Iron Will provide much more benefit to the fighter.
Admittedly, perhaps 5 save rerolls per day at higher levels could be too much. If that's the case, I'll rework the ability.
*Piledriver
The brawler has a lovely little attack allowing him to knock someone out for a number of rounds a limited amount of times per day. I thought that was cool and thematic of its flavor as a Brawler.
Meanwhile all the fighter has going for him is trying to get in position for a full-attack, which can quickly get boring. I decided that perhaps a little variation and strategy with a variety of debuffs and combat maneuvers which do not mechanically decrease the fighter's DPR would be flavorful in the sense that the Fighter is a master at fighting as well as an interesting combat mechanic, giving fighters something other to think about than what feat they are going to take next time.
It adds onto the image of the Fighter being masterful enough at wielding weapons that he can attack you and disarm, trip, bullrush, sunder, stun, stagger or daze you at the same time. Even if it's a limited amount of times per day. (I imagine it's not the easiest task to perform.)
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The Brawler has his Knockout and Brawler's Flurry and the Swashbucker has his Panache and Deeds and Charmed Life over the Fighter's Guarded Life and Piledriver and the ability to wear a variety of armor without gimping himself.
I think each class has more or less kept their most important niche intact, relative to each other.
Stuff ...
I like this version a lot.
Small nitpick, I'd allow the 'Fighters Training to be changed - maybe each day or each level, either makes sense.If he has martial flexibility then it should be at least daily if not at will, it reinforces the fighter as the Ultimate Adaptive Fighter, which is a niche I think he deserves, and most importantly: might be fun to play both for newcomers and old (jaded) masters.
And if that sounds OP ... then what planet are you on? if Ulric the Bloody has combat expertise and tower shield today but had a two-hander and power attack yesterday - then the sun still rises and sets along it's normal rutine.
the world is still whole, but Pete; Ulrics player is maybe having a bit more fun than he normally would with a vanilla fighter.
Fighter's Training is the way it is mostly because I simply couldn't really imagine a fighter swapping out how she was trained throughout his life in a day. But maybe that's just me.
If I -do- implement that, however, I might need to remove something else to keep the balance in place, because the Brawler (unlike the Fighter) doesn't get to choose which ability score her Cunning applies to, while the Swashbuckler doesn't get that kind of shtick at all.
I don't think that ability specifically is OP, I just think it might set the delicate scales awry.
For instance, if you implement such a change at your table, you should consider giving one of these two options:
Giving Brawlers the same ability.
or
Giving Swashbucklers the ability to choose a score and count it as 13 for prereqs as well as Brawlers, so that the fighter shines in her niche over its cousins.
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Here's what I think would be the most optimal and balanced solution.
* Versatile Training
Prereq: Martial Versatility class feature, Fighters Training or Brawler's Cunning class features.
Once per day you may spend a use of Martial Versatility to engage in training, meditation or other flavor-appropriate activities to change the effects of Fighter's Training or Brawler's cunning to apply to a new one.
This feat must be taken as a General Feat or a Combat Bonus Feat, but not through the effect of Martial Versatility. (This is so the character doesn't cheat the system.)
I like Jeremy757's last version better, since it steps less over the toes of Swashbucklers and Brawlers and lets Fighters do their own thing: here.
I'm going to say that it's a matter of taste here.
But it is not the Fighter that steps on Brawler and Swashbuckler toes here. I personally see it to be the other way around, as those classes specifically mention having Fighter as its parent class.
Martial Flexibility
Good
Fighter's Training
Good
Guarded Life
Seems like a good replacement for Bravery. However, the write-up of the class feature needs to mention the number of uses per day, and to be fair the name Guarded Life has already been used in Pathfinder for a barbarian Rage Power.
Bonus Feat
Martial Flexibility takes the place of the 1st level feat, but I would return to the fighter his "schtick" by changing bonus feats back to every even numbered level.
Pileriver
I would remove this.
5 rerolls a day for crappy saves isn't going to hurt anything. Someone else can do the math, but I believe that statistically, a reroll for a crappy save still isn't normally as good as a good save.
Since you pushed it back to 2nd level, I'd just have the fighter ignore stat reqs for combat feats.
Why is the fighter STILL the only fighting class that doesn't get a damage bonus from his class at level 1? And now you pushed it back to level 5?
The only 'way the fighter trains his whole life' is to be good at martial combat and all facets thereof. The only way he specializes is to take Weapon focus/spec.
If you want to spec a fighter in his fighting style before level 1, you have to give the fighter the option of giving up some of his level 1 proficiencies for other benefits. PF and 3e are the only iteration of the game where fighters couldn't specialize in a weapon at level 1 and get a bonus. Every other martial class, even a rogue, can!
just my 2p.
==Aelryinth
The real challenge is getting any DM to accept these.
One of my DMs just ignores threads like these completely.
I do like the work you've done here. I could use these myself.
So I keep browsing the forums to see comments from various fighter gurus about what each of them think is possibly wrong with the class or what could be changed or various concepts.
I mostly agreed with them, but my mind has a natural desire to question the validity of my own opinions and impressions a lot.
When I looked at the paladin, I just saw a shining beacon of being better than all the other martial classes.
When I saw the barbarian, I just saw the class take down anything and anyone, mostly because of its ability to deal with almost every non-social situation.
And when I looked at the fighter... it seemed cool at first (When I was a novice to Pathfinder), but quickly began to be inconsistent. It seems like an improved npc class to me, little more than that.
Lately I've taken a good look at Brawler and Swashbuckler and tried to compare it to the fighter and the various compaints many of you have had for the class.
Perhaps I did not address all of them, but I do believe I was able to bring the fighter in line with its hybrid cousins, who seem to be funner to play and marginally better at fighting than the fighter.
Below the class itself you'll find a few feats I thought could work for (not just the fighter) pathfinder games in general.
I took an approach similar to yours with my fighter redesign a while ago. Feel free to comment or borrow features for your own redesign.
Where you gave fighters "guarded life" I gave them Mettle and Resolve. In place of Bravery, I gave them bonuses to combat maneuvers instead. My "martial versatility" and your "martial flexibility" are essentially the same thing.
I went a little beyond that, however, and added a tad more customization for your "type" of fighter from the get-go within their proficiencies, allowing you to swap out starting proficiencies for other options. I also gave fighters the ability to just be all around better with whatever they pick up and use as a weapon.
I also tweaked Fighter Bonus Feats a bit, granting fighters ways to qualify for feats without some lengthy feat-chains or needing to be MAD to meet the prerequisites of certain feats, like the Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain.
Lastly, I also addressed Fighter Archetypes, allowing you to take the features from fighter archetypes as either feature replacements, as normal, or in place of a fighter bonus feat (as the power for most of the fighter archetype class features are comparable to feats anyhow).
Again, feedback is always welcome.
@Ciaran
I'll work to find a better name.
I guess I could remove Piledriver. Instead I'll add something that will allow the fighter to more easily qualify for the various "Assault" feats at earlier levels. How does that sound?
@Aelryinth
However, with a cloak of resistance and Iron Will you'll find those rerolls to hold a very substantial value. It may not provide bonuses, but it provides more worth for bonuses the fighter chooses to take on her own. I think giving all good saves to this version of the fighter would step on monk toes.
I don't see a problem with that, Aelryinth. A bonus at level 1 seems like a very trivial thing considering you can fill in feat requirements much faster than other classes at early levels.
Alright, I get the idea you're giving with proficiencies. But then I believe it is appropriate to also give the same ability to all classes in general.
Also Fighter's Training is at level 1. Ignoring all combat feat prerequisites is entirely over the top. I would prefer to avoid such extremist changes unless the entire system and all other classes were reworked as well.
@Icyshadow
Good luck on that!
@Sellsword
A liiiiittle bit of an obvious self-advertisement there buddy, but it's fine.
I may borrow some concepts from you, if you don't mind!
@SellswordA liiiiittle bit of an obvious self-advertisement there buddy, but it's fine.
I may borrow some concepts from you, if you don't mind!
Sure it was, but I don't get any reward for self-promotion; I posted my redesign for your benefit, as that is what this community/sub-forum is all about.
Please, borrow away!
I think I have come to the conclusion that martial flexibility is too good a class ability to be at level one. I think it needs to be at level 3 or higher.
I have house ruled the brawler to get it at 3rd level in my game.
You read too much into it.
I said 'stat reqs' for 'combat feats'. Not ignoring all reqs for all feats. Especially not feat reqs.
I'm not saying the rerolls aren't valuable, nor to give them all good saves. I'm saying that a reroll has to be compared against a +2 to +6 bonus for a good save. It's NOT overpowered.
Other classes get the ability to swap out stuff like that in archetypes. So does the fighter. It should simply be a universal skill for the fighter, basically an alternate feat choice. Fighter archetypes should just be feat choices.
Focused Training: At level 1, the fighter gains +1 dmg for any weapon he has weapon focus in.
This bonus is subsumed by Weapon Training 1 and higher.
Or something to that extent. Give him a combat bonus. He's a fighter! Rangers get FE, Barbs get rage, paladins smite. Give him something at level 1!
==Aelryinth
My 2 cp: "Piledriver" is WAY too open-ended, in that not all conditions are created equal. Notice how paladins, for example, can use mercy to remove more powerful conditions as they level; I'd use that for reference. Otherwise everyone will just pick "dead" or "destroyed" as the condition and be done with it.
Making them pick also creates fighters with signature moves, which is always fun.
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I would also move AWAY from weapon specialization, instead of towards it. Rather than seeing earlier and more powerful specialization, I'd like to see more general benefits that extend to ANY weapon the fighter uses.
Meanwhile apart from the ranger and barbarian and so on, the fighter has power attack, weapon focus and cleave all at level 1 in any combat he'd need the last two feats in, and an extra general feat he can take right off the bat if he's human too. It's just too trivial to be a thing worth bothering over in my eyes, Aelryinth. Anyone is welcome to implement something like that at their table however.
Guarded Life is not overpowered, yes. If it was, I think that would be a failure on my part. But I think it's much more interesting and fun than a simple bonus to saves. Anyone with a bad save can succeed a high DC if they get a good roll, after all.
Well, if that's still not enough for you, I recommend something like this.
*Heroic Defiance
Prereq: Guarded Life class feature (Maybe add in some stat limitation as well, because such a feat is quite powerful. Alternatively, you could give it a fighter 8th level prerequisite, which is about two levels before when saves are getting crucial.)
Whenever the fighter fails a save despite using Guarded Life, he may once per day attempt another roll on his next turn. This ability can be taken more than once, each time increasing the amount of times per day he can use Heroic Defiance.
As for the stat req thing. Here's the thing. As it stands now the classic fighter has absolutely no reason not to dip a level into Brawler and get Martial Flexability and Brawler's Cunning. If this ability is added to the fighter, no melee class will ever have a reason not to dip however many levels (If its given after level 1, the ability defeats its own purpose) is required to get that and just swim through heavy feat chains like Two-Weapon Fighting with 20 str and 12 dex.
I personally find it fine as it is, but if you absolutely must, Fighters Training can be made to scale upwards as the fighter grows in level to 15, 17 and so on. That's going to be your personal taste though, so I'd rather refrain from putting that into the thread itself.
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@Jeremy37
I kind of had the same impression when I first saw it on brawlers. So in the case that a GM would want to push back Martial Flexibility a level or two at their table, they should use the same standard for this version of the fighter, if they plan on using it.
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@Kirth
That could be a thing. I'm just a little hesitant to turn the ability into a Touch of Corruption copy. Do you think that by replacing Piledriver and instead allowing fighters to qualify for Stunning Assault and feats such as that at earlier levels and easier would be balanced and flavorful?
That was my second option, essentially.
If anyone's got a better idea on how to handle Piledriver's intended flavor, I'd adore some assistance!
P.S. In answer to Kirth's second post. The humans have a lovely chain of feats which allow any feats that specialize the fighter on one specific weapon to be spread out to all weapons in that group. As a houserule, that could be spread out to fighters in general instead.
Martial Versatility is the feats name, if memory serves.
I agree with Kirth as far as weapon training goes...specializing is a function of feat choice, it should not be an aspect of the class. Thus, weapon training should be broad and even across the classes.
Weapon Focus and Power Attack are available to all martial classes at level 1, and cleave isn't a damage bonus. Just saying. For the guy who fights, at level 1, he's the worst fighter of the bunch. THis tends to persist until much later levels, unless maybe he's an archer.
When I designed my own fighter, I changed how primary weapon group and weapon spec worked.
Primary Weapon Group is the weapons you CHOOSE TO USE. They didn't have to have anything to do with one another. You could also choose two primary weapons...if you used them both at the same time, weapon spec bonuses and stuff applied to both of them evenly.
This meant if you normally use greatsword and longbow, they were in your primary weapons group. If you use long and short sword, you got weapon spec with both of them.
Weapon Spec simply doubled your weapon training bonus with that weapon(s). Which eliminated Feat costs.
Secondary weapon groups were weapons you might use. The bonus was +1 less, but all secondary weapon groups had the same bonus. Which removed the idiocy of a 17th level fighter selecting a group of weapons and having +1 TH against them.
At level 1, you picked your two primary weapons, and got +1 damage with them. If you chose weapon focus, this doubled. So at first level a fighter could get....+1/+2 with his specialized weapon.
:)
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth, I think the entire forum knows about the general idea of what you've done with the fighter by now in order to tailor it to your personal preference. I understand what you're saying and the intention behind it, so I'd like you to understand the intention behind this thread as well, so that we're on the same page.
This is a rather easy fighter rewrite making use of the majority of already existing in-game mechanics in order to bring the fighter on the same page as the Swashbuckler and Brawler.
I try to move away as far from personal taste as possible (Piledriver is an exception, to be fair. But I said I'd fix that.) and make the most universal and simple fix possible in order to accomplish the standards I set out to meet.
Thank you for explaining your opinion and point of view, it will be taken into account if I ever think about trying to rewrite the fighter from the ground up.
I've simply replaced "weapon training" with a flat +1/2 level bonus to weapon damage. It's simple, easy to keep track of, and puts fighters ahead of the game in terms of damage output without the need for specialization.
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i quite like that as a class feature the fighter can choose to specialize in in a weapon - there is some flavor there.
if Weapon Training were locked in at a daily interval instead of an advancement interval you could have both the legendary swordsman or the master of all weapons.
Perhaps it could be something like... The interval after which you can pick a new weapon will be equal to the bonus received from the weapon training slot? So the +4 slot can be changed after four days and the +1 one respectively can be switched out after only a day?
I see what people are saying about flat bonus across the board, but i have to agree with the people who are saying that specialization is kind of what makes me like the fighter. A recommendation that could make both parties kinda happy would be:
Weapon training:
Starting at 5th level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage which he can apply to a single weapon group, as noted below.
at level 9 the fighters gains an extra +2 to attack and damage which he can apply to one or more weapons groups (including the group he choose at level 5). At level 13 the fighter receives and extra +3, and +4 at lvl 17. The bonus to a single weapons group can not exceed the bonus supplied at any given level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.
this could be used similar to the current weapon training, or allow a fighter to get a larger bonus in less groups or an even bonus among many groups.
example:
lvl 5: +1 to blades (H)
lvl9: +2 to blades (H), +1 to close
lvl 13: +3 to blades (H), +3 to close
lvl 17: +4 to blades (H), +4 to close, +2 to bows
or
lvl 5: +1 to blades (H)
lvl9: +1 to blades (H), +1 to close, +1 to bows
lvl 13: +2 to blades (H), +2 to close, +2 to bows
lvl 17: +4 to blades (H), +3 to close, +3 to bows
or
lvl 5: +1 to blades (H)
lvl9: +2 to blades (H), +1 to close
lvl 13: +3 to blades (H), +2 to close, +1 to bows
lvl 17: +4 to blades (H), +3 to close, +2 to bows, +1 to axes
or
lvl 5: +1 to blades (H)
lvl9: +1 to blades (H), +2 to close
lvl 13: +1 to blades (H), +2 to close, +2 to bows, +1 to axes
lvl 17: +2 to blades (H), +2 to close, +2 to bows, +2 to axes, +2 to blades (L)
possibilities can go on for quite a while
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I plan on living until I'm 80 or 90.
so, the time investment on recreating the whole system could not be justified by "laziness" - even in as far as I identify with the moniker so long as it doesn't rub too hard against my enjoyment of a good game (an equally unsatisfying waste of time).
that said,
though I like the idea that a fighter can "specialize," I find underwhelming that this can devolve into simple (BORING!) numeric bonuses. when I think of specialize, I think of cool stunts and crazy maneuvers. and fortunately, a lot of these have already been written in the rules, even if they are sadly locked behind feat-bloat.
enter the Brawler and his fancy Martial Flexibility. this is an elegant solution for the experienced player who may very well be at home with the prospect of poring through tomes IRL to find the perfect stunt or maneuver IGL. To adjust for a newbie, you could just let them pull from CRB only, plus one Advanced/Ultimate feat per level, as a sort of "feats known" list. that is one solution.
mine is this.
maybe your fighter, Gulian, could go halfway and be able to train with a certain number of weapons in the morning, and until he trains new ones, be able to use Martial Flexibility with those weapons only. This would keep him at once specialized and flexible. Your legendary swordsman simply chooses "swords" every day, whereas your master-of-all-weapons chooses a different weapon set each day.
just throwin' out ideas.
I plan on living until I'm 80 or 90.
so, the time investment on recreating the whole system could not be justified by "laziness" - even in as far as I identify with the moniker so long as it doesn't rub too hard against my enjoyment of a good game (an equally unsatisfying waste of time).that said,
though I like the idea that a fighter can "specialize," I find underwhelming that this can devolve into simple (BORING!) numeric bonuses. when I think of specialize, I think of cool stunts and crazy maneuvers. and fortunately, a lot of these have already been written in the rules, even if they are sadly locked behind feat-bloat.enter the Brawler and his fancy Martial Flexibility. this is an elegant solution for the experienced player who may very well be at home with the prospect of poring through tomes IRL to find the perfect stunt or maneuver IGL. To adjust for a newbie, you could just let them pull from CRB only, plus one Advanced/Ultimate feat per level, as a sort of "feats known" list. that is one solution.
mine is this.
maybe your fighter, Gulian, could go halfway and be able to train with a certain number of weapons in the morning, and until he trains new ones, be able to use Martial Flexibility with those weapons only. This would keep him at once specialized and flexible. Your legendary swordsman simply chooses "swords" every day, whereas your master-of-all-weapons chooses a different weapon set each day.
just throwin' out ideas.
much like a pyro wizard chooses fireball and scorching ray everyday and takes feats to back those up. but a master-of-all will pick the spells that play well for those days events. I could see this being AWESOME.
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Flexibility is certainly the key to making a class that people will enjoy playing.
I know I have more concepts for characters, than I will ever have time to play. That's no-one's fault in the design dept, it's just a sad fact. But at least the designers can stop rubbing salt in the wound, with trap feats, gatekeeper feats, and boring numerical-only feats.
Given that I'm already having to make hard choices about what games I can attend, and what few characters I can play, I'm already prone to wondering if I made the right choice. I can push those thoughts aside by having a character that can operate in more than one aspect of the game, and can approach any problem from a variety of directions.
They don't have to be a 'jack of all-trades, master of none'; that only happens if they try to build toward doing all things simultaneously.
A flexible character, who can refocus their abilities, not just on level-up, but per day, allows me to try out many different concepts, without disrupting the game with retiring and rehiring new static-build PCs.
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Haven't time to digest the full write-up, but I have to comment on the following ability.
Guarded Life (Ex)
The fighter’s training lends her a defiance of death and unfavorable circumstances. At 2nd level, she may reroll any save and must take the second result even if it is worse. The fighter must declare her intention to do so before the save is announced to have been successful or failed.
There's several abilities out there with a similar wording to that last sentence, and it causes lots of problems in practice.
It seems inoccuous, to ask the player to make the choice without hindsight, but in reality, that level of 'obliviousness' required, to be able to make such an uninformed choice, is impossible to adjudicate or enforce.
Anyone who's played a while has (or should be expected to have) a certain level of system understanding, and what clauses like this do is punish players for learning the rules of the game.
Example situation:
An incoming fireball is announced, the players all know it's a level 3 effect, requires at least a 13(+1) casting stat, so the DC must be 14+.
The fighter with a +5 Reflex rolls a natural 8, curses, and reaches to pick up the die for a reroll. And is told to stop.
Because he rolled low enough, that he knew the result was a fail, so is therefore ineligible to use his ability.
By the strict reading of the text, he'd only be allowed to reroll, if the total result was at least 14+, in which case, he's being asked to gamble how much he thinks the caster's prime stat is, above the minimum required to cast.
If he'd rolled a total 19, he knows that's enough to pass the DC of an off the peg wand, but is it a pass? Is he willing to bet the caster has a +6 mod, or a +7? A +7 is certainly doable, even for an NPC, if they maxed out and benefited from a stat-booster spell? Are you going to keep that roll? Or not?
What about an 18? Is that a definite save? Or not?
What about 17? How low can you go, above 13, and still be confident you're not throwing away a save you actually passed?
This is before you consider that the DC could easily be revealed, by other PCs being told they succeed or fail, before the fighter's player can indicate he wants to be able to use his reroll if needed.
Throw in a sorcerer, or other creature spamming the same effect, and it could mean this reroll ability can only ever be used in the first round of any encounter.
You're better off giving the player the option to reroll with hindsight, or else it will be an ability that they are never allowed to use (because 'metagaming'), refuse to use when it would have helped, or it will cause them to reroll and fail saves that they actually passed first time.
I think you are reading too much into the it. I have always played it as, "before the DM informs you that you've passed/failed". A DM cannot assume you KNOW that you will pass/fail, so he has to give you the benefit of the doubt, until such a time that he informs you. As soon as you take assumptions into rules (assuming a player has done the math and assuming a player knows the spell level) you over complicate them.
yes a player can be pretty sure (all the math says he has failed) that he has failed the ref save for a fireball with a 10, but he can not know for certain until the DM tell him.
Cheepenbulky has the right of it, I'm afraid. The point is not to create forceful ambiguity around the result of your roll. As long as he chooses to reroll before the DM announces the result of his save roll, he may use Guarded Life.
The fighter can in-characterly observe the effects this spell has on his team mates, each with their own physique and then decide if they desire to push their limits against this skill or not. It's rather plausible in that regard, if your worry is meta-gaming.
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This (and similar published abilities) doesn't say anything about waiting for the GM to make a pronouncement; they say 'before the result is known'.
The results of many rolls should be known long before the GM announces them. If the players are being efficient, and prepared.
I expect everyone to know their total bonuses before the roll, and I expect everyone I game with to be able to add or subtract two 2-digit numbers immediately in their head.
"We know he's AC 40 at least, and I've got (calculates all bonuses) +25. Here goes; I'm going to need at least 15 on the die." is a common preamble to many rolls. So you know when that 13 comes up, you've missed. And some GMs will refuse to let you use your [attack reroll ability].
I've seen too many threads, where GMs are refusing to let players use their reroll abilities, because the DC is already known.
"You can't reroll natural 1s, because you know it's a fail."
"You can't reroll any total of 10 or less, because you know that's a fail."
"You just heard Player B fail on a result of 18, so you know your result of 17 is also a fail. So you're not allowed to reroll."
And of course, the times after the GM has called "Fail!" immediately, before the player has had chance to register the result of the roll.
"I want to reroll that.."
"TOO LATE!"
The latter could be a dickish GM move, to prevent players using their abilities, or it could be a GM trying to hurry the game along.
It doesn't matter whether these abilities affect saves, attack rolls, skills, very often the DC is a fixed one from the rules (like the Climb DCs for various surfaces), has been given to the players by the GM, 'You think it's a tough lock to pick, at least DC 30.", or has already been established, or estimated to close accuracy, by the previous rolls.
Too many GMs are taking that clause about 'only allowed to reroll, before the results are known' as binding, preventing the use of these abilities.
Very well, I'll adjust the wording to eliminate as many of those sotuations as possible. However, if the GM chooses to shout the result instantly, then there's little to be done. I imagine rerolling saves after the GM has announced the failure would be quite annoying for the table.
I've seen too many threads, where GMs are refusing to let players use their reroll abilities, because the DC is already known.
"You can't reroll natural 1s, because you know it's a fail."
"You can't reroll any total of 10 or less, because you know that's a fail."
"You just heard Player B fail on a result of 18, so you know your result of 17 is also a fail. So you're not allowed to reroll."
And of course, the times after the GM has called "Fail!" immediately, before the player has had chance to register the result of the roll.
"I want to reroll that.."
"TOO LATE!"The latter could be a dickish GM move, to prevent players using their abilities, or it could be a GM trying to hurry the game along.
It doesn't matter whether these abilities affect saves, attack rolls, skills, very often the DC is a fixed one from the rules (like the Climb DCs for various surfaces), has been given to the players by the GM, 'You think it's a tough lock to pick, at least DC 30.", or has already been established, or estimated to close accuracy, by the previous rolls.
Too many GMs are taking that clause about 'only allowed to reroll, before the results are known' as binding, preventing the use of these abilities.
them are punky DM's
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Very well, I'll adjust the wording to eliminate as many of those sotuations as possible. However, if the GM chooses to shout the result instantly, then there's little to be done. I imagine rerolling saves after the GM has announced the failure would be quite annoying for the table.
Not at all; that's what rerolls are for.
Rerolling failed checks.Because rerolling successful checks is worse than a non-ability; it's a negative ability. Having this, and only being allowed to use it on rolls that are potential borderline results, just means a lot of dead fighter PCs, killed by things that they saved against first time round, then threw away their successful saves.
Better to just give a reroll that allows rerolls, with no opportunity for anyone to accuse anyone else of metagaming, cheating, reading the bestiary on their phone, reading the GM's notes, or engaging in head-games.
If you haven't already, I'd advise you to read 'Catch-22', in which the central characters are caught in this kind of logic trap.
Orr (one of the pilots) is obviously insane, volunteering for more and more deadly missions.
The command won't stop him flying, because he asks to fly.
They have to stop him flying, if he's insane.
They say they can't just declare him insane, he has to ask.
As soon as he asks not to fly, he ceases to be insane (because who wants to fly combat missions? Duh!).
If he's not insane, he has to fly.
"If you can only use a reroll, if you don't know it's a fail, then as soon as you ask to use a reroll, you reveal that you know it to be a fail (because who's going to reroll a success? Duh!), therefore, you're not eligible to use a reroll."
Also; the GM has to play all NPC fighters, while also knowing the PC's ACs and save DCs. How is he going to be able to use a reroll in good faith?
I was rather clear in my words. You may reroll before the DM announces results. It doesn't matter if you know or not. If your DM is acting that way, however, that is not the system's or the class's fault. Simply try to find one who has a better grasp on the concept of human decency.
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Snorter,
You have some serious psychological scars from an a**h*** DM it seems, who took a character feature and bent the wording to disrupt the spirit of it. Maybe as revenge for your ability to do mental math (?), because, not everybody has that knack, and, as the fundamental mechanic of the game's causation is statistical, being able to compute probabilities quickly grants an edge into playing the game that is tantamount to seeing the future. Imagine if in your own life you could calculate the success/fail ratio of anything you were about to do down to a 5% error! That'd be something.
That said, when it comes to manipulating the dice themselves, I identify two major events in any single die roll where, depending upon where the Power-Over-Dice ability interjects itself, progressively scales the ability in narrative and mechanical power.
The first event is rolling the actual dice. The second event is determining the result.
The weakest POD ability occurs before the first event: "Roll twice and take the best result"
The middle POD ability occurs between events: "Re-roll before knowing the result"
The strongest POD ability occurs after both events; "Re-roll a failed check"
and yes, the middle ability is definitely the stickiest area, because of the discrepancies which can result about when a character can "know" what the result is - a character with mental math skills will "know" much faster, a DM can pre-emptively force a player to "know" by quickly shouting "fail", yet another player could poker-read the DMs face, etc etc.
So, if it was me in your particular situation, DM being a jerk yelling "fail" in order to circumvent my use of a well-earned class feature, short of leaving the table altogether, I would simply change my middle ability to a weakest ability, something like "rolling and re-rolling my Fort save => "ok fourteen plus five: Nineteen! Did I fail?"
cheers.
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Don't worry; I've not been a victim of this adversarial tactic.
I'm just pointing it out, to avert any awfulness that could occur. Because I've seen the subject come up on these boards, with GMs wanting the staff to back them up, that 1s can't be rerolled, can't reroll vs a known DC, etc.
You're right that I wouldn't stick with a GM who prevented such an ability working, but we don't all have the option to find a replacement, and there's always the dreaded 'table variation' you can find at a convention.
That would be a terrible time to find out the GM has a different interpretation.
We're all on the same page, and anyone who finds the thread has more than enough explanation now of the design intent, so I'll let it go.
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The weakest POD ability occurs before the first event: "Roll twice and take the best result"
The middle POD ability occurs between events: "Re-roll before knowing the result"
The strongest POD ability occurs after both events; "Re-roll a failed check"
I actually prefer the first, out of all three. It's straightforward, reduces the number of rolls (because they can both be done together), and removes the dithering and 'helpful' suggestions from everybody else at the table.
A lot of the opposition toward rerolling comes (IMO) from a misunderstanding of what it represents. As if a shot was loosed, a jump was made, a dodge was attempted, everyone waits and watches the utter failure, then somehow 'time is rewound', and the character gets a do-over.
For some people, it feels 'dirty', like cheating, somehow.
If it's changed to a form of 'battle-readiness', a state of mind, or trance that can be entered, it becomes more readily accepted.
We're all familiar with when a glass is dropped, and it seems like time slows down, as we watch it sloooooooowly fall toward the new carpet, but most of us can't seem to reach it to prevent it making a stain. But there's often one guy we know, who seems to be able to react faster than everyone else, who seems to prevent spills, catch keys before they fall down a grate, or other feats of sharp reactions.
That's what these rerolls represent.
The fighter in battle trance doesn't freeze up under fire, but uses his trained muscle-memory to perform moves he's done a thousand times.
'Bullet Time' adjustments to changing events.