So my players were having some difficulties getting past the entrance to citadel Drezen and my players are getting frustrated after they lost one of their cohorts and nearly TPK'd at the beginning of exploring the citadel.
They have come up with a plan of letting the paladins clear the fortress for them and then explore the citadel after it has been cleared of enemies.
I have asked the pc's to consider just taking some of the npc's in the adventure or a few paladin's with them, but they seem adamant on having the paladins do their dirty work.
I don't use XP in my Campaigns so my pc's won't miss out on that reward and I can't see a bunch of paladins under the pc's command stealing all the treasures in the fort (my pc's are willing to give them a fair share anyway.
What should I do? Should I just let the paladins clear the fortress and be done with it? or should I have the paladins suffer so many losses that the pc's have to step in (thereby weakening their army and further frustrate my players)? or as I considered tell the pc's that the paladins are needed for other duties around Drezen (which I know will end in a long debate about why the pc's can't command the paladins to do whatever they want since they are in charge)?
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I would also have Staunton Vhane sitting on a throne made of Paladin Corpses, maybe with his underlings putting on a disturbing puppet show (well maybe not the puppet show)
make them feel guilty for sending them in to be slaughtered:)
The keep is built to be defended against mooks (i.e 4th level Paladins) there are a number of chokepoints where powerful creatures can slaughter large numbers of minions. As other people have pointed out just let the Paladins be slaughtered, several of the powerful creatures in there can annihilate Paladins. We should end up with
Vampire spawn paladins
Spectres
Ghoul Paladins
Succubi Dominated and charmed Paladins
Paladin Internal Decor
Of course with 50 or 60 dead Paladins to show for his efforts Staunton may feel he can report to his superiors and live. In which case Game over.
On the other hand if they really can't get past the entrance perhaps they are totally incompetent , I don't actually remember that as even slowing down my pc's plus of course there are multiple possible entrance points besides the gates if they find the defences there too strong. I seem to recall mine entered through the Manticores lair using an invisibility sphere and some fly spells
I don't see how the Paladins can help in this case. The Castle is not undefended and if the Paladins are sent they will get killed. The army would have to move through a choke point where demons would get to fight the paladins in small numbers. As well with army engaged in the fortress nothing is there to stop the other bad guys from regrouping and attacking from behind.
Aron and Anevia can scout out the Citadel a bit and inform them of the various entrances (parapets, main and Soltengrebbe's tower).
From there, you could let the PCs try one of the alternate entrances...or have them send in the paladins.
In which case, I would have the players each take control of small groups of paladins (two-four perhaps) and have them assault. Play it out. Let them see first hand what a brimorak fireball does to a batch of paladins. Let them see how well they stand up to the vrock or Jestek.
Don't say no, but keep them involved and let them see that the choke points make the 100 paladins less than optimal for the assault. However, if the paladins take the parapets/main gate, the party may be more willing to go in and explore on their own.
Or throw in some sallies from the Citadel to give the players some xp so that they are a bit tougher before trying to assault the Citadel again.
The problem is that the 100 Paladin are their own worst enemy. Since there are so many they are crammed in. This means that the aforementioned fireball will hit about 24 paladins at once, dealing an average of 21 damage (ref bad save for paladins), or about 60% of their hp.
How about the Half-fiend minotaurs? Each hit deals about 19 damage. Their unholy blight spell-like? hit 12 at a time for 13 damage and sickened. Heck just cast darkness and the Paladins are effectively blind against a castle full of creatures with darkvision.
Staunton Vhane is a Antipaladin 8/Champion 2, plus has 25 point buy and PC level gear. This puts his CR at 9-10. The Paladins are NPCs meaning that they have a reduced APL, 4 having only APL of 3. To be an epic encounter (meaning APL+3), you need 8 Paladins. That is a fight that the rules expect to be a possible TPK, against 1 creature, under neutral conditions. If you add in Vhane's minions and the summoned Babau demon and the fact that the conditions are tilted in the bad guy's favor, you are looking at a TPK in 1 or 2 rounds for your 8 Paladins, that is after they watch their companions get slaughtered just trying to get there.
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Someone did mention the Vrock in the Main hall, also the pit fall trap right at the start will be missed and you will have lots of Paladins in a hole who can't get out.
The Succubus in the first Chapel will most likely have more followers as she is in the form of the Inheritor to start with.
Just on a whole they won't likely survive. My PCs are not taking any of the NPCs with them in the Citadel, they have left them in command of the army outside (we didn't do mass combat, I had them describe tactics and we went with that((having two war nuts makes it interesting))so they didn't really lose to many in the assaults). Plus to me if you let the army go in you would have twice as many enemies to deal with as the Vrock would summon a buddy, the Nabasu would have many more Ghouls and Staunton Vhaune would have as someone else said a cold iron throne of paladin bodies.
All in all if your PCs are afraid to go in than maybe this is the wrong AP for them.
Try a new path?
you know WotR is pathfinder set on easy, what path is going to kill them less?
honestly give them a lil pep talk, tell them its all downhill from there, the hardest part is over:)
if that doesnt work then proceed with the house of horrors
"The problem is that the 100 Paladin are their own worst enemy. Since there are so many they are crammed in. This means that the aforementioned fireball will hit about 24 paladins at once, dealing an average of 21 damage (ref bad save for paladins), or about 60% of their hp."
"Someone did mention the Vrock in the Main hall, also the pit fall trap right at the start will be missed and you will have lots of Paladins in a hole who can't get out."
Why are people assuming the paladins are dumb or won't use reasonably intelligent tactics if put into this situation? They're 4th level paladins, well-seasoned warriors for Good, not mindless zombies, headstrong goblins, or pathetic dretches. I would expect the cost to be pretty savage, but 24 paladins hammered in a single fireball? Only if they're really dumb.
Of course, if that did happen and they did take 60% of their hit points in damage, only a subset of them have to channel their positive energy in order to heal the lot of them as well - so bunching up isn't all bad in the right circumstances.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's more a "time saver" than "paladins are dumb".
I'm Staunton. I hear an entire army of paladins coming. I set up:
- My 4-6 remaining Brimoraks in F3b with cover, to hit them with fireballs if they group up.
- My 3 babaus in F3a to stab any paladins who come close to the portcullis. (Spears! Yay!)
- My summoned babau in F3c (along with my rangers). The babau uses at-will Darkness to keep the paladins blind. They can't shoot, and their charge at the portcullis will result in lots and lots of paladin blood as the other babaus tear the frontliners apart. Anyone staying close enough to channel energy? A few fireballs from the brimoraks and they're dead.
Well, I still have my vrock, my succubi, my thoxels, my minotaurs, and Jestak. Plus anyone I care to recruit from downstairs. Kiranda, Chorussina, and Daiatan are wildcards, but with a paladin army coming they're likely to help as well, turning what was "just" a rout into a wholesale slaughter.
I may be biased, but my PCs were *very* careful to avoid a "full assault on Drezen" for exactly these reasons, instead hitting one side of the fortress to draw defenders, then Dimension Dooring across to sneak in the other side while the defenders were looking/waiting for the attack.
Sending the 100-paladin army straight in the front door is sure to kill 100 paladins. You can play it out. I'm sure they'd kill a few defenders. But you can set up too good of a defense in Drezen to fall to such a headstrong attack.
Why are people assuming the paladins are dumb or won't use reasonably intelligent tactics if put into this situation? They're 4th level paladins, well-seasoned warriors for Good, not mindless zombies, headstrong goblins, or pathetic dretches. I would expect the cost to be pretty savage, but 24 paladins hammered in a single fireball? Only if they're really dumb.
Of course, if that did happen and they did take 60% of their hit points in damage, only a subset of them have to channel their positive energy in order to heal the lot of them as well - so bunching up isn't all bad in the right circumstances.
As you say, they're 4th level Paladins. If they go in small groups, they will be easily slaughtered. Their only strength is strength in numbers, but this is a fortress designed to take away that one strength. The party of PCs can use magic to Dimension Door/Levitate/Fly to an entry way other than the main door, really any team worth their salt will do so. 100 paladins on the other hand can either a) go through the front door or b) try to build siege towers and ladders to get in the back. Since b is going to result in massive casualties before they even get close, really a is the only option.
2 Brimoraks in F1 is going to do serious damage. The 4 gargoyles will also severely hurt them. Heck the archers in F3 will do tons of damage, and that is before they even get into the Citidel. Then they get to fight the aforementioned Demons.
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I think we're all in agreement then, they should totally send them in, and here's why
-- Its what Zap Branigan would do
-- It underscores the costs of war and drives home that actions have consequences
-- And it would make Drezen the challenging horror-filled funhouse it should've been.
But mostly because its what Zap Branigan would do:p
Also i hope Paizo and everyone on the west coast is alive and well:-)
Sounds like the Pineapple Express was a doozy! especially in the Bay Area
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What makes a man turn neutral....
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Yes we know the Paladins can heal themselves, not very often and they aren't equipped to deal with the horrors that lay with in the Citadel its self. Since the portcullis is broken in to the main entrance way you could easily have the Vrock on the other side, using its seed ability and screech without reproach.
as people said the Demons have the advantage because a castle is a force multiplier for the defenders, a few can hold off the many.
Demons being able to teleport gives them hit and run tactical advantage, plus the Ballista on the top portion of the citadel still do work, so even there your running the risk of being cut down before you get close. Jestak would kills 20 4th level paladins before they even had a chance as she alone is 10th level and can deal out some significant damage.
So what I am saying is don't send the Paladins in, you can have them running screening or do what my PCs did and have them take to the Curtain wall surrounding the citadel, there they can pick off Demons and such on the other part of the citadel at their leisure with cover.
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I think we're all in agreement then, they should totally send them in, and here's why
-- Its what Zap Branigan would do
-- It underscores the costs of war and drives home that actions have consequences
-- And it would make Drezen the challenging horror-filled funhouse it should've been.But mostly because its what Zap Branigan would do:p
Also i hope Paizo and everyone on the west coast is alive and well:-)
Sounds like the Pineapple Express was a doozy! especially in the Bay Area
Y'know, it's the "worst storm since 1998", which isn't that long (for me) and yet they're closing schools, giving away free sandbags, etc.
Better over- than under-prepared, but still (puts on old man hat), "They never shut down schools on account of rain in MY day!"
(Still fondly remember going slip-n-sliding on a lawn 2" deep in water, going to class, and getting sent home for being "too muddy". I asked, "Where is that a rule?" The teacher Did Not Approve.)
But yes, I spent my lunch hour yesterday patching my roof, and it's managed to hold so far, but this is indeed quite a combination of wind and rain -- I think that's the big deal. We've had worse winds. We've had much worse rain. But it's a nasty combo I haven't seen in quite a while...
Hmm.... what storm? I even live and work right near Paizo and didn't notice anything.
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Hmm.... what storm? I even live and work right near Paizo and didn't notice anything.
You're from Seattle. You don't notice such things, as they are all perfectly normal to you.
I live in an area where every time it rains, all the drivers throw both hands in the air and scream, "There is water falling from the sky!"
It's the only way I can explain the horde of accidents every single time it rains around here.
Sadly, not true. No one here knows how to drive in the rain either.
Thanks for all your input guys. It seems my players have rethought their plan between sessions and are now considering a different approach taking only a few elite npc's with them.
Its true! Seattle drivers cannot handle any adverse conditions, even the sun rising over a hillside caused a pile up when I lived there, super funny stuff, also the raining all the time cliche is a fallacy seattle people encourage to keep out the riff raff
Damn common sense! just once i want someone to pick the nightmare hypothetical!
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Shhhh! We're not allowed to talk about the summers here. And so true, the sun also causes accidents here.
And sorry to hijack Mortagon.
I would do whatever subtle nudging you can to limit NPCs in combat from this point on. Not sure what happened to their cohort but it could be a lesson for your PCs that they are the heroes here and all the Worldwound's problems are for them to solve.
I'm actually looking forward to the huge megastorm; here in California we need all the rain we can get.
Anyway, I had an idea of how to handle the paladins. Make a cheap level 4 statblock of a paladin and print out a few copies for your players. Then run the party through the standard combat encounters, but with each one controlling a paladin. Every time a paladin dies, he or she is instantly replaced with a new one on the field of play, but there is a set number of "reinforcements" that can be expended before the army is considered to have been decimated. If you play the bad guys right, the number of paladins should plummet pretty fast.
Yeah, I got this idea from Battlefield.
I don't use XP in my Campaigns so my pc's won't miss out on that reward and I can't see a bunch of paladins under the pc's command stealing all the treasures in the fort (my pc's are willing to give them a fair share anyway.
Even if you don't use XP, you still only have them level at certain parts of the adventure after they've accomplished certain things, yes? No accomplishment = no level. Remind them of that.
Then tell them all to sack up and remember they're adventurers and heroes. Otherwise, put the books away and pull out the Parcheesi. That seems more their speed if they don't want to do the dirty work.
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Its true! Seattle drivers cannot handle any adverse conditions, even the sun rising over a hillside caused a pile up when I lived there, super funny stuff, also the raining all the time cliche is a fallacy seattle people encourage to keep out the riff raff
LOL! This was one of my all-time favorite "driving in snow" videos! Apparently filmed by a friend of my sister-in-law ONE NIGHT in Seattle...
...did this thread have an original topic? I forget...
Its true! Seattle drivers cannot handle any adverse conditions, even the sun rising over a hillside caused a pile up when I lived there, super funny stuff, also the raining all the time cliche is a fallacy seattle people encourage to keep out the riff raffLOL! This was one of my all-time favorite "driving in snow" videos! Apparently filmed by a friend of my sister-in-law ONE NIGHT in Seattle...
...did this thread have an original topic? I forget...
The best part about that video is its timelessness:-p
The cars may change, but every snow/ice storm there's ten people that think its a good idea to A) go down the hill in the first place and B) apply the breaks as soon as they start, thus ensuring them a very expensive- tho comical- trip to the bottom :-) i truly love Seattle, they know how to live:-pedit: And yes the issue has been resolved, common sense prevailed, no nightmare funhouse scenario :-(
The heroes are defined not by being stronger than their foes but by being stronger that the rest of the people on the same side. Sometimes, like in DnD, stronger than the rest of the people on the same side combined. Perhaps those PCs should be given a lesson in that. I agree that an army of mooks has very little chance of successfully attacking citadel Drezen, and though I wouldn't go so far as turn them into undead and add them into encounters (if only I'm not a big fan of "instant apocalypse, just add a single shadow to your city" scenarios that inevitably result from easy undead spawn creation, so it is not easy in my games), I'd certainly desribe defeat, rout and slaughter in details. A few can be charmed by succubi, of course.
I know the OP has resolved the issue, but in case anyone comes back here you could always go big.
Have the Nabasu teleport over (he has access to a parapet so he could reasonably see the army), summon in a friend. If it has been more than a day he could/should have 3 growth points, along with his friends 1. They both activate their death stealing gaze, and use Mass Hold Person and Telekinesis to disarm the paladins. I'm not sure if the paladins need to see the Nabasu for Death Stealing Gaze to work, but if they don't they could always toss up a Deeper Darkness.
He can voluntarily give up his saving throw and get 20 growth points plane shifting to the abyss to become a terror to the party later.
Now that doesn't solve the problem of the other 80 paladins, but it at least gives you something to terrorize the party with for that decision.
EDIT: It's only worse for them if he doesn't get to 20 growth points.
considering how under-powered said citadel is and how much heat your average mythic party is packing i'll be very surprised if this ever happens again, in fact the fact that it happened at all is astounding to me:-)
but whatever keeps a thread alive so i can crack jokes guilt free is fine by me:-p
I think somewhere along the line my party make up went awry, because I'm looking at the citadel and I'm not sure how they'll get through without having a hard time. They'll be entering this Saturday, so we'll see.
I tried comparing what's happened in my game, to what has happened in magnuskn's and NobodysHome's games, but their players and parties are so different than mine that it wasn't really helpful. That and their journals (not that they should) don't really cover the specific tactics they used with the enemies.
Oh well, I still think I'll run into the same problems as everyone else in book 3, because that looks like a joke.
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The top floor of the citadel isn't that bad; my group got lucky in the path they chose, a few terrible rolls by the bad guys, and a few lucky crits by the fighter.
The dungeon is pathetic. Be prepared to be sad when you run it.
I accidentally challenged my group by ending up with them fighting, Both the Vhanes, the Vampire, The Succubus Duellist as well as assorted Babau and Fiendish Minotaurs (It just happened , I did not mean to stack the deck like that). They still won but it was close particularly as the Paladin rolled a 1 on his save vs the vampires Death attack fortunatly it was a paralysis attempt and someone else broke the Paralysis , I think 2 pc's were down but not dead at the end of the fight
Well let me clarify a bit; while the top floor could be difficult, the bottom floor makes up for that:-p
And what i meant is i doubt another party will say to their army "Um, you know what what, we took care of the Chimera and the bridge, why don't you guys go poke around the Citadel. don't worry, we'll totally supervise from atop that hill over there, and if you get into trouble just scream really loud and we'll come give you a hand, maybe"
The top floor of the citadel isn't that bad; my group got lucky in the path they chose, a few terrible rolls by the bad guys, and a few lucky crits by the fighter.
The dungeon is pathetic. Be prepared to be sad when you run it.
If you want to really ratchet up the sad, play this song the whole time; Saddest. Song. Ever
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Well let me clarify a bit; while the top floor could be difficult, the bottom floor makes up for that:-p
And what i meant is i doubt another party will say to their army "Um, you know what what, we took care of the Chimera and the bridge, why don't you guys go poke around the Citadel. don't worry, we'll totally supervise from atop that hill over there, and if you get into trouble just scream really loud and we'll come give you a hand, maybe"
The Ranger in my party actually came up with the idea, but that's archers for you. =p
I'm not that familiar w/ Nobody'shome's game, but Magnuskn's group is full of super optimizers. Unless you have a highly optimized party, the citadel is of average difficulty. Good tactics and luck really play a big role. My party found the basement and cleared that before doing most of the upstairs, so I let them clear the first floor with a Solar(planetar?) in tow. They had fun and it was mostly mop up duty anyway.
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Now i have an image of a Paladin in full plate holding a leashed Solar outside every room "you want the Demon buddy! you want him! Huh! huh! go get 'em boy!"
I'll add to the vote that the basement is pretty easy without optimizers in the group. However, on the top floor I did almost TPK my group of PCs.
My party just defeated Soltengrabbe and it put 2 of the 4 characters down but not dead. Only 4 of 6 were in attendance so I didn't use it to its full potential. They were all melee combatants(no sorcerer or battle cleric present). 6 PCs though 4-5 show per session. Nervous to unload Scorpions full stat blocks against them, as they kind of optimize. Some don't. Both casters have yet to take mythic spellcasting. The dwarf cleric just took martial weapon proficiency: longbow this level. So we'll see...
For the sake of future GMs with a similar problem: Schroedinger that sucker.
The encounters are what the PC's face. If they try to send in the hundred Paladins in their stead, make it clear that the battle is not going in their favor. If they refuse, kill the Paladins. When the PCs finally buckle down and go in, show them a scene of carnage: bodies of Paladins, Antipaladins, cultists, Half-fiend creatures, Rift Drakes, a Bebilith or two and the like all over the place. The pre-set encounters being all that's left of the enemy.
Afterwards, be merciful and have half the Paladin force actually turn out to just be captured or injured.
If they go in at the same time, just go do all that in the background, and have the Paladins survive as needed.